Experience Rates With 0-5 Other Group Members

[Axoc]

Here on the forums, on the subreddit, on the wiki, and in-game I've been told about a "full group bonus" that means if you have a group of 6 members then you have more experience gain than if you have a group of 4-5 members. I've also been told that all experience negative modifiers (for example Human Ranger -40% , Iksar Necro -32%) apply to that specific character only, EXCEPT for hybrid -40% deficit.

So for example if the group makeup is:
Human Ranger -40%
Human Monk -20%
Halfling Warrior +15.5%
Dwarf Cleric +0%
Iksar Necromancer -32%
Iksar Shadowknight -68%
(not ideal I understand but these combinations exist only to highlight the experience modifiers)

Then everyone in the group would receive the Ranger hybrid deficit, resulting in:
Human Ranger -40%
Human Monk -40%
Halfling Warrior -40%
Dwarf Cleric -40%
Iksar Necromancer -40%
Iksar Shadowknight -68%
(the higher number is taken, correct? Or are they added together or multiplied?)

This means that as long as one of the four hybrid classes:
Bard
Paladin
Ranger
Shadowknight

Isn't in the group, then the experience rates for all members will be their own personal experience modifier, correct? When they group with a hybrid, how is the new modifier calculated?

Also I have seen from personal experience that the ideal number of players (from a minmax perspective, not a fun social perspective) seems to be 3:
Solo has the most experience per kill but the most downtime
Duo has less experience per kill but the lowest downtime while actually still having downtime
Trio has less experience per kill but no downtime
4 people has less experience per kill but such a high amount of downtime you never go OOM unless constantly nuking
5 people has less experience per kill but such a high amount of downtime you never go OOM with even higher mana than 4 people
6 people has less experience per kill but such a high amount of downtime you never go OOM with even higher mana than 5 people

This means that 3 is the ideal for minmax, not 6 as the rumor goes, correct? But 6 is better exp than 4-5, right? If this is entirely wrong, could somebody answer and explain both of these questions for me please?

[Donruss]

This sounds totally wrong to me. But I am going to let a smarter person answer.

[Axoc]

This sounds totally wrong to me. But I am going to let a smarter person answer.

Which part? The EXP modifiers sounds really wrong to me, but the 0-5 grouping seems to make sense...obviously the EXP can't be multiplicative in this case because 1.4*1.68=2.352 so an Iksar SK would lose 35.2% EXP of a mob's EXP value every time that mob was killed if a hybrid was in the group. It also can't be added, as they would then lose 108% of that EXP value.

So in that case would the deficit be 40% or the usual 68%?

[Samoht]

your first issue is that there are TWO exp modifiers for class race combinations, not one. there's one for class. there's one for race. class modifiers apply to group exp. race modifiers only apply to personal exp.

[loramin]

You're pretty off. Take a look at http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works for how it actually works.

[Ezalor]

yea you are 100% wrong on this

see the wiki

[drktmplr12]

Take a step back from group bonus, race, and class for one minute...

It's total exp earned thus far (calculated by race, class, and level) for each player, and then it's that exp / sum(exp) for everyone in the group.

Lets do some math to illustrate:

5 human warriors with 2000 total xp each.
1 troll shadow ranger 10000 total xp

The troll would get 50% of the group's xp per kill.
The warriors would each get 10% of the group's xp per kill.

Lets change it to:

5 troll shadow rangers with 2000 total xp each
1 human warrior with 10000 total xp

The trolls would each get 10% of the group's xp per kill.
The warrior would get 50% of the group's xp per kill.

Race and class have nothing to do with the calculation. Instead race and class determines what level someone will be based on an amount of earned exp. Now we include the group bonus. If the kill normally yields 100xp.. the group bonus gets applied to that then the xp is split.

[Ezalor]

A group invited no hybrids because of the darn "dirty xp hogs" that they are

5 warriors with 2000 total xp each
1 cleric with 10000 total xp because he was 4 levels higher

the 5 warriors each got 10% of the group's xp per kill
the 1 cleric got 50% of the group's xp per kill

the cleric laughed his way to the bank on the retardation of the rest of the group who didn't know it's about total xp on your character. that includes level, not just your class/race.

[Amalec]

Then everyone in the group would receive the Ranger hybrid deficit

This is your problem. That is not how this works. Here's the basics:

1) All experience penalties are a modifier for the amount of experience you need to level. That's it. They don't effect how much experience you or anyone else gets from a kill directly. Experience modifiers never apply to anyone else directly.

2) When a monster is killed it awards experience based on it's level and location. The amount awarded isn't effected by the number of people in a group, their races, their classes or their levels. The only exception is when someone is too high and no experience is given.

3) Experience is divided proportionately to the total amount of experience each character in the group has, regardless of their or anyone else's race, class or level.

In practice, what this means is a character with a high experience penalty take experience as if they were higher (or, rarely, lower) level than they actually are in a group.

Examples

From the wiki:

Cumulative Total XP to complete a level = L^3 * C * R * H
Where:
C = Class Multiplier
R = Race Multiplier
H = Hell Multiplier (based on level)

So, a level 30 High Elf Enchanter has total experience = (30^3) * 110 * 10 = 29700000.

Working from there, we can calculate what level other characters with the same experience total would be (fractional levels matter!):
A Level 30.00 High Elf Enchanter
A Level 32.51 Halfling Rogue
A Level 26.01 Troll ShadowKnight
A Level 30.97 Human Cleric
A Level 30.18 Troll Warrior

What that means is that, if we had a group consisting of the characters above they'd each get exactly 20% of the experience from every kill. And if we were choosing any of the characters above for our group they'd each take exactly the same proportion of experience.

If, instead, we had the above characters in our group but they were all exactly level 30, the group's total experience would be 154561500.

A Level 30.00 High Elf Enchanter would have 29700000 total experience and take 19.22% of the XP
A Level 30.00 Halfling Rogue would have 23341500 total experience and take 15.10% of the XP
A Level 30.00 Troll ShadowKnight would have 45360000 total experience and take 29.35% of the XP
A Level 30.00 Human Cleric would have 27000000 total experience and take 17.47% of the XP
A Level 30.00 Troll Warrior would have 29160000 total experience and take 18.87% of the XP

In short:
People who yell on the forums about not grouping with hybrids don't understand experience mechanics.

People who yell on the forums that the hybrid penalty doesn't matter or that it's the same as grouping with a character a level or two higher don't understand math.

People who won't group with someone when they've got a slot open because they're worried about efficiency need to go outside.

[mr_jon3s]

Heres how I look at exp. I have a camp of x amount of mobs I want the right amount of people that I can kill those x amount of mobs before the first one repops but with not having much downtime. If I have 3 people that can do this we don't need another person in the group. I hate when people add people in a group just to fill up the group.

[evan1612]

Heres how I look at exp. I have a camp of x amount of mobs I want the right amount of people that I can kill those x amount of mobs before the first one repops but with not having much downtime. If I have 3 people that can do this we don't need another person in the group. I hate when people add people in a group just to fill up the group.

Maybe people fill up groups to not be greedy with exp?

[Axoc]

class modifiers apply to group exp.

The wiki says, under the heading Well, how do we slice the pie? How big will each slice be?, "The classes of these characters makes no difference at all. The only thing that determined how big each slice of the pie would be was the net total xp that each of them had earned since character creation."

This means that more experience goes to higher levels, right? So if you want maximum experience for a mob, you should theoretically either be the highest level in that group OR you should be grouping only with white cons, right?

Race and class have nothing to do with the calculation. Instead race and class determines what level someone will be based on an amount of earned exp. Now we include the group bonus. If the kill normally yields 100xp.. the group bonus gets applied to that then the xp is split.

Okay so the only thing that applies to group deficit is hybrid penalty or class penalty? I'm not understanding here. If a kill normally yields 100xp, would the only penalty check across the entire group be to check for -40% and then it would calculate the individual modifier, ranging anywhere from -68% of that newly edited number to +15.5% of that newly edited number?

So it could be anywhere from:
+0% = 100xp
-40% = 60xp
-68% = 32xp
-40%, then 68% of that number = 21.76xp?

Or is the higher/lower number of the -40% vs -68% number taken, either resulting in 60xp/32xp?

2) When a monster is killed it awards experience based on it's level and location. The amount awarded isn't effected by the number of people in a group, their races, their classes or their levels. The only exception is when someone is too high and no experience is given.

What about on the wiki under the heading, How Experience Works, in the Game Mechanics page where it says "However, through the magic of the group bonus, for each person in the group beyond the first, the pie gets a little bit bigger (2% bigger in fact) before we pull out the knife to divide the slices."? Is this incorrect?

Working from there, we can calculate what level other characters with the same experience total would be (fractional levels matter!):
A Level 30.00 High Elf Enchanter
A Level 32.51 Halfling Rogue
A Level 26.01 Troll ShadowKnight
A Level 30.97 Human Cleric
A Level 30.18 Troll Warrior

So it's based on actual invisible number of experience points, not the visible level? If it works this way, why is the stereotype of "hybrids shit up group exp rates" a thing?

Editing to make sure that it's clear I'm not interested in the minmax idea of "I can't have a full group because it cuts out on my experience", before that argument even gets started. I'm simply interested in knowledge for knowledge's sake.

[Amalec]

This means that more experience goes to higher levels, right? So if you want maximum experience for a mob, you should theoretically either be the highest level in that group OR you should be grouping only with white cons, right?


The first part is true. The person with the highest experience total will get the biggest share of experience. But your conclusion is false. You're trying to maximize the total experience you gain, not the proportion of the experience you gain. Otherwise, you might as well solo - you always get 100% of the experience that way.


What about on the wiki under the heading, How Experience Works, in the Game Mechanics page where it says "However, through the magic of the group bonus, for each person in the group beyond the first, the pie gets a little bit bigger (2% bigger in fact) before we pull out the knife to divide the slices."? Is this incorrect?


This is correct. That was an oversight on my part. Experience awarded by an npc is dependent on their level, their location and the group modifier.


Okay so the only thing that applies to group deficit is hybrid penalty or class penalty? I'm not understanding here. If a kill normally yields 100xp, would the only penalty check across the entire group be to check for -40% and then it would calculate the individual modifier, ranging anywhere from -68% of that newly edited number to +15.5% of that newly edited number?

So it could be anywhere from:
+0% = 100xp
-40% = 60xp
-68% = 32xp
-40%, then 68% of that number = 21.76xp?


There is no group deficit. If the kill is worth 100xp, it is worth 100xp whether it is killed by a full group of halfling rogues or a full group of troll shadowknights. Or a pair of druids, though they'll lose 8% of the group bonus. Who gets the experience is all that changes, and that is based on each individuals total experience.


So it's based on actual invisible number of experience points, not the visible level? If it works this way, why is the stereotype of "hybrids shit up group exp rates" a thing?


Yes, it is based on the invisible number of experience points.

The stereotype of hybrids shitting up group exp rates is because their experience penalty makes their exp totals considerably higher than anyone else's, particularly when it's applied with a steep racial penalty.

Referring back to my original post for example, a level 26 Troll SK or a level 32 Halfling Rogue will take roughly the same amount of the 'experience' pie from a group. And adding that 30 Troll SK to your trio will do roughly the same thing to your experience rate as adding two 30 Halfling Rogues would.

[Donruss]

Told Ya :D

[perditionparty]

Maybe people fill up groups to not be greedy with exp?

This is understandable - but I've probably spent an additional 2 weeks (at 30+ hours a week) playing just because people like to run with full groups.

[Feanol]

All this min/max talk makes me furious.

Everquest is at it's core a game about being social.

If the movement of the experience bar draws more of your attention than other human beings...

If you exclude someone from a group that asked to join because you feel that person "isn't necessary" than I hate your guts and wish that all the bad things in life happen to you.

[curtischoy]

Don't worry about it. Just exp and have fun. The exp modifiers are basically negligible. I leveled my wood elf ranger with a barb rog friend and we leveled at almost the same rate. Once he hit 45, i was at 44 and about 40% into the level. We grouped with each other exclusively.

[Slayde]

Don't worry about it. Just exp and have fun. The exp modifiers are basically negligible. I leveled my wood elf ranger with a barb rog friend and we leveled at almost the same rate. Once he hit 45, i was at 44 and about 40% into the level. We grouped with each other exclusively.

Exactly. Why must so many preoccupy themselves with the min-maxing math? Just play the game and have fun. Stop worrying about stuff, it's a video game. An emulation of a really old one at that.

[alaiwy0503]

All this min/max talk makes me furious.

Everquest is at it's core a game about being social.

If the movement of the experience bar draws more of your attention than other human beings...

If you exclude someone from a group that asked to join because you feel that person "isn't necessary" than I hate your guts and wish that all the bad things in life happen to you.

This is the most entitled and self-centered post I've read all day and I have read the Red99 forums today so that's saying something. Who are you to tell every person what the core of the game is about? Get out of here with your judgmental attitude and let the nerds do their work.

[Amalec]

Don't worry about it. Just exp and have fun. The exp modifiers are basically negligible. I leveled my wood elf ranger with a barb rog friend and we leveled at almost the same rate. Once he hit 45, i was at 44 and about 40% into the level. We grouped with each other exclusively.

That's because, as a side effect of exp awards being proportioned by total experience, your wood elf ranger was taking 60-70% of the exp while he was getting 30-40% of the exp. You guys leveled at the same rate, but you both leveled considerably slower than he would have if you'd played a druid.

Edit for data:
A level 45 Barb Rogue has (45^3 * 91 * 10.5 * 1.4) = 121897912.5 exp
A level 44.40 has (44.4^3 * 140 * 10 * 1.4) = 171555632.64 exp

So you're splitting EXP about 60/40 with him. Although he'd be the same level as you if he didn't get exp independently from you; so you're taking a bit more than those numbers suggest.

If you'd played a character who split the exp equally, he (and you) would be just shy of 48th level.

[Feanol]

This is the most entitled and self-centered post I've read all day and I have read the Red99 forums today so that's saying something. Who are you to tell every person what the core of the game is about? Get out of here with your judgmental attitude and let the nerds do their work.

^^

Confirmed number cruncher who only lets Monks and Clerics in her groups. I can tell I hit home.

You know there's other servers that let you use mercenaries for maximum control. You don't even need other people!

Avoidavoidavoid.

[Axoc]

Thanks for the solid explanations everybody. I understand now.

I'm not sure if it's some form of half-hearted trolling to get this upset over asking questions just to learn basic game mechanics, but as I've previously implied I'm more interested in the actual social aspect of the game. EQ seems to be more about the journey than the actual destination. As I've already blatantly stated, this thread was made for knowledge for knowledge's sake in order to explain an apparently widely misunderstood game mechanic, since every group I've been in has a different explanation for the way it works, all of which appear to be incorrect based on the way it was explained in this thread.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I hate when people add people in a group just to fill up the group.

You, sir, obviously have never had the pleasure of driving a clown car. because if you did, you would realize, there is always room for another clown, and it is right and proper to invite them in.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Is it correct to put the matter this way:

a) the exp penalty of a given class (they need x times more exp to level) is partnered with a sort of exp bonus in groups (they eat a small amount more of the exp of a given kill than chars in the group without the penalty).

b) This system is a way of imposing a penalty (twice the exp needed in some class/race cases) but also partially offsetting it, so diff classes and races leveling rates do not get totally out of whack (exp penalty classes simply fall way behind, given equal playing times)?

Not trying to understand the math, but the overall logic of the system and what the "penalty" is and is meant to do, and how it is (or is not) offset.

[Vaderman]

Pal and SK bring a huge grouping advantage over warriors. At a minimum, we can lock down agro on multiple mobs with ease. I pay the price for my class and so do groups, but we gain an advantage with that price.

[Amalec]

Is it correct to put the matter this way:

a) the exp penalty of a given class (they need x times more exp to level) is partnered with a sort of exp bonus in groups (they eat a small amount more of the exp of a given kill than chars in the group without the penalty).

b) This system is a way of imposing a penalty (twice the exp needed in some class/race cases) but also partially offsetting it, so diff classes and races leveling rates do not get totally out of whack (exp penalty classes simply fall way behind, given equal playing times)?

Not trying to understand the math, but the overall logic of the system and what the "penalty" is and is meant to do, and how it is (or is not) offset.

I really don't understand the logic of it of it's implementation. But you're correct. For a character playing a hybrid, your exp penalty gets almost entirely offset by the extra experience proportion you take from the group. And the portion that isn't offset is effectively shared by everyone else. This is where the old 'hybrids shit up group xp' comes from. As a hybrid, long as you stick with full groups, your rate of leveling is only slowed by 1/6th of your experience penalty. A Troll ShadowKnight, for example, only levels about 11% slower than anyone else. Interestingly, this applies in reverse to the Halfling Rogue. Your 15% exp bonus might look good, but in a full groups you're only leveling about 2% faster.

For everyone else, taking a hybrid into a 6-man group means each member's share might fall from ~16% of the exp to ~14-15% of the exp. It's not so bad, in other words. It is something to be mindful of, however, particularly if they are a few levels higher than the rest of the group or you've already got a couple of high penalty characters.

[falkun]

Remember that EQ was ripped from D&D, which would have been in 2nd ed during that time (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Timeline)). Multiclassing in 2ED&D meant splitting your exp among your classes, so you leveled up slower than if you had only a single class (source (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?698692-1E-2E-AD-amp-D-Dual-class-characters-why-would-you-bother&p=17071350#post17071350)). Since EQ only had a single EXP pool, Verant implemented it through a penalty that required more experience to achieve the same level. Then, they made the "pie" system for distributing exp, so hybrids munched more of the pie, "decreasing" everyone else's individual slices.

In Velious, they finally corrected it, but because they didn't want to change current exp totals, they slapped on an equivalent buff to hybrids. I haven't tracked down exactly how the math works out with their fix, but its something like hybrids an additional 40% to level, but their piece of the pie is multiplied by 1.4 once its divided up to them. I think the hybrid penalty removal also stopped their group members from having smaller pieces, but again, I'm not sure how that math was handled.

[towbes]

Remember that EQ was ripped from D&D, which would have been in 2nd ed during that time

As someone who knows very little about D&D, I would like to thank you for explaining this little bit of history. Always good to know the roots of a decision.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Some of us fell in love with eq, because we used to dream that someday, computers would be powerful enough to run a "DM Simulator" where the computer was the dungeon master, and it could involve every stat and calculation you would want, AND it would be graphical, not just text based. And then eq came out, and it was wow, it finally happened.

Without D&D, everquest never happens.

And one could argue, without Tolkien, there never would have been D&D.

Geek history is deep, and at the roots of more things that people take for granted today than many realize. The internet was invented, defined, and initially populated by the military.... and D&D enthusiasts and Monty Python fans who could code.

[perditionparty]

As someone who knows very little about D&D, I would like to thank you for explaining this little bit of history. Always good to know the roots of a decision.


(*EDIT* - this is typed off the top of my head, so it's sloppy and not intended to be a complete explanation)

In the 60s, there were war games; you had an army, depicted by miniatures and rules on their abilities and stats. This slowly turned into proto d&d games where you controlled one character vs an army. Heavily influenced by tolkien and other fantasy writers, Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson (among others) worked on systems they had already built to design the first edition d&d in the early 70s. You advanced through your levels collecting gold (early versions and other games actually equated gold earned to experience earned) and killing enemies. With other expansions (later known as splatbooks) would contain content for different classes, dungeons, settings, etc. It eventually kept building till they made changes/advancements which became Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (Im pretty sure Arneson was out of the picture at this point) and published by TSR (later D&D rights were bought out by Wizards of the Coast - when they created 3rd Ed). AD&D's reign was from the later 70s up to 2000.

The idea was that you would earn experience as you killed monsters. Certain races were classes in an of themselves in 1st ed and 2nd ed (Elf being a class for a while). Certain classes were considered more powerful (such as elves) so to off set this, they would assign xp penalties to offset their power vs other available class/race combos. If you dual classes (for instance, fighterman and a thief) you were considered at a disadvantage because you needed to learn the skills of being a fighterman and the skills of being a thief at the same time, thereby slowing your progression than if you were straight fighterman or straight thief. This also incurred an xp penalty.

This is where Everquest followed the idea (although, being level 60 in d&d is laughable, because the initial intent was by level 10 you were either a lord, or king and some classes had the ability to own a castle, recruit followers or had to retire). Some classes/races had abilities that put them at an advantage over other classes, so they assigned similar xp penalties, requiring more xp to advance.

You had stats, abilities and skills - which would either increase as you leveled or found items that would increase them. The variation here is that D&D skills didn't increase through use, you would assign them based on available points as you leveled.

Religion was used, so clerics and paladins would get their abilities from their deities.

There were good and evil races, but the system that is absent from Everquest is alignment. This ranged from being good to neutral to evil and would be the driving force of how your character behaved in certain situations.


All in all - Everquest was a graphical immersion of D&D type games, where the computer did all of your number crunching (a 30 second battle in d&d could last hours because you had to figure out attacks, spells, resists, thac0 (a contrived version of AC) by rolling dice, looking up corresponding charts and doing the math in your head.)

[perditionparty]

Going along with the history of EQ - it is also important to know there were 2 or 3 dozens of D&D games on PCs from the early 70s on. This does not include other roleplaying video games. EQ is not the first MMO either. You had Meridian 59, Ultima Online and MUDs (multi user dungeons - which were text based) prior to those.


There are many RPGs that predate, or grew on outside of D&Ds influence. Everquest is just Highly influenced by D&D and did more so than previous MMOs/MUDs (the mud statement may not be entirely true, Im just going off of my knowledge).