Warrior Agro----

[Tokum-6n0m3]

Ok unlike a lot of other post I see im not complaining about taunt, it seems very close to what i remember of live back in 99....however my problem is this...

Everyone on this server swears by proc weapons for agro (and yes in live proc weapons were better then non-procing weapons) HOWEVER I can clearly remember playing on my warrior pre-kunark on live with no Fbss, mostly bronze, and 2 decent (6/22 no proc) weapons at lvl 25 and being able to hold agro with relative ease. On here I can have 2 obsidian shards a Fbss full suit of crafted and at lvl25 im having to FIGHT MY ASS OFF to obtain agro unless i get a proc or 2.......

Also from my understanding of raiding later on (on this server), a warrior HAS to have 2yaks to have ANY chance of holding agro, this as stated before was something on live that people preferred but there were plenty of cases of warriors using 2 fast weapons such as thullian claws, and electric bladed wakusi (or however its spelled) and holding agro ALMOST as good as the tanks with 2 yaks......I will admit that a warrior with 2 yaks did hold agro better then the warrior using non-proc fast weapons, however on this server the warrior with the fast weapons will generate little to no agro at all.........this seems severely broke to me.

Now you can blame this on DPS that don't wait to dps but Ive had healers pull agro off me with a single heal and the mob already at 60% cause I had yet to proc with a weapon (this case it was just me and the healer,so i had done 40% of dmg already to the mob) this was another clue to me.

I know a lot of people complain about taunt being broke being the reason warriors are broken and where as it might not work like it does currently in live, it seems to work just like it did in classic....

I think the reason people feel like its broke is cause they're playing the same class they did back then, using the same fast/dps based weapons that gave them "good enough" agro back in the day, just arn't cutting it anymore. Because to them the dps output seems the same, they assume the threat generated is the same......so only answer is= taunt must be broke.

I feel like some hidden threat modifier that affects EVERY hit a warrior makes, is missing from the equation or its set to low.....

Maybe im wrong, but something definitely FEELS wrong to me.....worth looking into......hope everyone doesn't flame me to bad for this :x

[omgmo]

You should also consider that many other classes have broken mechanics that affect their aggro generation, which can make things look worse than they are for a tank (not to say that warriors are fine). Slows and mez's seem to cause a ridiculous amount of hate, memblur's seem to be ineffective, sitting appears to cause no extra aggro, the list goes on. I'm not sure we'll ever see an exact replica of how everything once worked, as all we have to go on are people's memories - and the flaw in that is endless.

[rainingvodka]

sit does cause extra aggro. i'm sitting in upper guk right now. i killed a green mob standing next to another green mob that didn't assist at all. the second i sat down that non assisting mob attacked me.

[Zallarenya]

Something else I've noticed: In Classic, most people weren't as focused on, for lack of a better term, being top of the damage meters. We knew that we had to give the tank a little bit to get aggro before going all in. I finally got too tired of rogues jumping in behind the mobs on the pull, before it even got to me, and backstabbing (OMGWTF YOU SUCK GET THIS OFF ME!), and just shelved my warrior.

[Gorroth]

You should also consider that many other classes have broken mechanics that affect their aggro generation, which can make things look worse than they are for a tank (not to say that warriors are fine). Slows and mez's seem to cause a ridiculous amount of hate, memblur's seem to be ineffective, sitting appears to cause no extra aggro, the list goes on.

This. It's been brought up a few times for different spells (mez/slow/malise) but I don't think a dev ever answered any concerns about aggro being broken so I wouldn't hold my breath for any kind of fix. It definitely doesn't feel right though.

[Mmohunter]

sit does cause extra aggro. i'm sitting in upper guk right now. i killed a green mob standing next to another green mob that didn't assist at all. the second i sat down that non assisting mob attacked me.

When any PC sits it registers as a lvl 1 PC, that's why any mob which is KoS will attack you no matter the level. This information went public years ago.

[fishingme]

Something else I've noticed: In Classic, most people weren't as focused on, for lack of a better term, being top of the damage meters. We knew that we had to give the tank a little bit to get aggro before going all in. I finally got too tired of rogues jumping in behind the mobs on the pull, before it even got to me, and backstabbing (OMGWTF YOU SUCK GET THIS OFF ME!), and just shelved my warrior.

+1

[Dantes]

It's hard to base these assumptions off memories that are 10 years old. I remember plenty of times during live being the last one alive in my group after a wipe because I couldn't get aggro.

[snwbrdr642]

One way to deal with these "broken" mechanics. Quoted from PEQ forms.

re: taunt

My understanding is it is simply putting you at highest aggro+1. That is not building aggro.

Ok, I see this everywhere and it is just not true mechanically, here's why:

Taunt at max hate gives you a negligible amount of threat. One thing to keep in mind though: versus ranged you can still be tanking and not be at the top of the hate list because the ai prefers to attack targets in melee so there's a threshold that the ranged has to hit to pull so long as they stay out of the hit box.

So if you have a nuker in your group they can actually be on top of the hate list and you can keep agro and when you hit taunt you will actually instantly generate the amount of hate that will put you at the top of the list. Its not game changing, but its not something you should ignore or be unaware of. Again, its not something that you (99% of people playing on emu servers) should be unaware of.

[Bargran]

I'm not sure, but I think I remember reading that on this server, misses produce no aggro, I have no proof under my hand but I remember misses producing aggro on Live, it may be the difference in aggro warriors (especially those without aggro weapons) are enduring.
You may want to research on this, I'm not 100% sure, but it can be the answer you're looking for.

[Uthgaard]

Threat is something on the to do list.

[Yoite]

iirc misses were supposed to count as as much agro as a hit. don't know where i heard that from, I'm at work so i cant search. but thats what i remember.

i don't know how they are currently being handled agro wise on this server.

[Daldaen]

iirc misses were supposed to count as as much agro as a hit. don't know where i heard that from, I'm at work so i cant search. but thats what i remember.

i don't know how they are currently being handled agro wise on this server.

Aggro is generated by swings not by actual hits or damage. The raw value of the weapon is what generates aggro (and procs of course). This is what allowed warriors to maintain aggro on Zun'Muram Tkarish in Txevu (a mob that was completely immune to all spells and melee other than pets/irresistables)

[rainingvodka]

When any PC sits it registers as a lvl 1 PC, that's why any mob which is KoS will attack you no matter the level. This information went public years ago.

interesting. i never saw that. got any links?

[Ahnen]

Regarding sitting and agro: I seem to remember sitting at the entrance to Plane of Hate being a huge no no because it would agro certain mobs through the wall. Maybe someone remembers this better or more accurately than I do. I hope this helps.

[Puyen]

My gf lvl 14 war can hardy keep aggro over my lvl 9 bard and I'm not even using damage song. Lol

[Evilmog]

For starters reviving an old topic for the win, had this info earlier but never really had a chance to post it since my trolling skill is currently 0.

Anyways, taunt is working as well as I remembered on classic, except the fact that we aren't getting 'Your attempt to taunt as failed!' message. I recall even maxed taunt skills failing often, so taunts maybe failing, but hey, we'll never know.

Another reason for poor agro from a warrior is due to this: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12173

I'm not sure if that has been looked at from when it was posted 4 months ago (Tempted to assume no since the Dev that was gonna look at it no longer has a cool bold name), but I recall on live back in the day on a mob that's been mezzed tashed slowed and malo'd a taunt and a disarm and the mob was yours (If the taunt didn't fail). Disarm was an ability that gave warriors better damage mitigation (If the target was wielding a weapon it would punch you a little more that 1/2 the damage as if it slashed / crushed you with a weapon) and pissed said mob off because it had to take it's time to pick it up when it succeeded.

So tossing those aspects back out there.

[Dantes]

Disarm is fun. Bring it back :)

[guineapig]

Do disarm skill-ups work at least?

[Dantes]

I haven't even trained it because I read that it was broken. That's something to think about, if skill-ups work, may as well mash the button.

[Crone]

Ohh, if threat is being looked into, that makes me very happy as a level 34 Warrior. :)

[Evilmog]

Do disarm skill-ups work at least?

Nope

[runlvlzero]

Now you can blame this on DPS that don't wait to dps but Ive had healers pull aggro off me with a single heal and the mob already at 60% cause I had yet to proc with a weapon (this case it was just me and the healer,so i had done 40% of dmg already to the mob) this was another clue to me.


I agree with this observation it just ain't right... i can have a mob at 41% hp, me at 50% hp, get two "Heals" from a cleric lvl 19 and that cleric instantaneously pulls aggro on a blue mob I've been beating on for a minute and 30 seconds using an 6/28. This just isn't right.

By the same token that mob can be at 41% hp and a druid can nuke it for the first time lvl 20 with the their 19 nuke and it will instantly aggro again on the druid.

Pure melee aggro generation is too low, or spell aggro in general is just too high.

Now vs other melee its not so glaringly bad if i hold agro on a mob for a min monks wont instantly pull it off unless they bust in with flying kicks. This leads me to believe spell aggro is a lil on the high side or "ALL" melee agro is a lil low in general.

Anyway thanks for looking into this its a really big deal and is quite painful... it can be compensated for but It is not something that promotes a healthy atmosphere for low lvls groups/tanks.

[Mardur]

Stick it out, my aggro was okayish back in classic, but with a couple Kunark weapons that aren't even the best I hold aggro like a champion now (pun intended).

[runlvlzero]

got no intention of quitting over it =) anyway i just wanted to point out the situation from a lvl 18 warrios perspective, i'll be 25 ish soonish (TM) and have stun whips at the very least making it possible for me to tank nps )

[runlvlzero]

using a silverish scimitar, and stun whip its better....

using firerune its not too bad

[Seeatee]

I got no complaints, but rather a question, I have a level 18 war, he has a FBSS and is using 2 obsidian shards, I have a couple of nice agro weapons banked for level 40+ but are there any kunark weapons that offer better agro than 2 obsidian shards from 20 - 40? because even with FBSS and 2 OS agro can be a bit sketchy if i dont get lucky with the procs.

[Dantes]

Unfortunately Obsidian Shards are probably your best option, but you might try the Whip of Strangulation. 6/24, procs choke at level 10. It's a debuff and a dot, seems like it might be worth a shot since most mobs hate debuffs.

[Pescador]

I thought that delay used to be a much bigger deal than it appears to be now. Weren't there tons of warriors using Jade Mace or Lammy in their main hand back in the day? Here, it seems like unless you have a stun or snare proccing weapon in your main hand, you are useless. This is purely based on my memory, but I'm just curious as to how accurate this is. It's just strange that hardly any warriors are using Jade Mace or Lammy, because those used to be premium war weapons in classic. Did people back then *really* not understand that procs on an 8/24 weapon was vastly superior to a procless 9/18 weapon? Or is a low delay weapon just not as useful on this server as it should be, and/or are procs more useful than they should be?

[YendorLootmonkey]

I can tell you as a ranger, we should be getting tons of aggro with our fast weapons (14 delay rat whip, 18 delay mace, 19 delay lammy, etc) to the point Jolt becomes a necessary spell. I remember having to turn off attack to let the tank regain aggro before I was able to use Jolt, and even then it was a permanently memmed spell. This would support melee swing aggro here needing some adjustment, for what its worth.

[Dantes]

It's different here. We weren't just stupid back then. I could keep aggro pretty well with a Jarsath Trident / Wurmslayer combo back in the day. Neither of those proc, they would just hit often and for a shitload of damage.

[logiktrip]

On live a weapons swing aggro was dependent on potential damage. (Aggro=(weapon damage+damage bonus)).

There seems to be an issue with this somewhere on p99 (I would guess it's from from tinkering with the damage bonus calculations, but it's tough to say), so you see a performance boost from proccing weapons.

[orsk]

I cant wait for this to be fixed, my weapon choices are so gimped because if i dont have a proc wep i cant do my job correctly. DMG bonus isnt working correctly either.