Why do mages get the shaft when it comes to mana regen??

[mr_jon3s]

So re started playing p99 again am a 54 mage and it sucks not have any form of mana regen. Mod rods are nice for other people but as a mage why do we get the shaft when it comes to mana regen??

[Ele]

Mages have the same mana regen rate as all the other casters with equal meditate skill.

Really though because pets.

Mages do get HP regen buffs through their armor series and have unlimited bandages.



Enchanters get their clarity buffs.
Druids get some self buffs to speed up mana regen at 59/60 and PotG at 60 in Velious.
Wizards get some slight self mana buff, Manaskin, and their Epic.
Necros get to trade their HP for mana and Manaskin.

[Castcalm]

Yours is not to question why, yours is but to summon mod rods and die.

[ElemtalRZ]

Magicians in classic everquest had the ability to specialize in Conjuration. Doing this so would allow the magician to chain summon a pet and reclaim him for more mana than it would take to cast. This is not the case on this server. You can not summon a pet for less mana than it cost to make the pet even though specialization is in effect on this server. Its a shame that there isn't more gm's who actually played classic that know some of these tools.

[mr_jon3s]

Magicians in classic everquest had the ability to specialize in Conjuration. Doing this so would allow the magician to chain summon a pet and reclaim him for more mana than it would take to cast. This is not the case on this server. You can not summon a pet for less mana than it cost to make the pet even though specialization is in effect on this server. Its a shame that there isn't more gm's who actually played classic that know some of these tools.
Findnthe proof so we can do it.

[ElemtalRZ]

Gonna be hard to find proof on a game thats over what 16 years old?

[loramin]

How do you think the rest of this server was made? The proof exists out there, it's just in places like the Wayback machine and old forums.

[ElemtalRZ]

http://www.mombu.com/games/everquest/t-mage-pet-canni-14207123-last.html

[ElemtalRZ]

http://eqevolve.blogspot.com/2012/04/some-new-info-on-mages-pets-and-rules.html

[ElemtalRZ]

http://www.eqclassic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=445

[ElemtalRZ]

Do we need more proof?

[Madbad]

None of it is reliable or specific enough it seems to me, keep digging!

[Raev]

Magicians do not need mana. Summon pet, chain burnt wood staff, win.

[ElemtalRZ]

I have my epic pet and a mana robe so could care less about mana regen. That should be enough proof in all honesty this is supposed to be classic Eq. If the gm's dont want to make it as classic as possible, not my problem.

[Crawdad]

Magicians in classic everquest had the ability to specialize in Conjuration. Doing this so would allow the magician to chain summon a pet and reclaim him for more mana than it would take to cast. This is not the case on this server. You can not summon a pet for less mana than it cost to make the pet even though specialization is in effect on this server. Its a shame that there isn't more gm's who actually played classic that know some of these tools.

When I started here I wondered why I never saw Mages pet canni'ing. I had a few Mage buddies and this was pretty standard. You're going to have to find several Dated sources with the WayBack machine if you want this fixed, as most of your sources don't include a time frame.

Actual Dated comments about Pet Canni'ing and its Nerf:
http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?11970-Cani-pet-nurf-Mages-call-foul
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=331#m106459146236177
http://forums.zebuxoruk.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7463

Nerfs to Reclaim Energy and associated AAs was December 18th, 2003:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2003-2.html

What's not really clear is if this was possible without AAs. So that's what I'd be looking for, if anyone cares.

[ElemtalRZ]

I played a magician on Rallos zek a majority of my life I was lvl 52 doing this. I know for a fact that it was put into place and the AA Improved Reclaim wasn't even put into the game until the nerf took place.

[ElemtalRZ]

http://www.mombu.com/games/everquest/t-mage-pet-canni-2283411.html

[nuuki]

Magicians do not need mana. Summon pet, chain burnt wood staff, win.

So with that staff you can cast a 330~ dmg nuke for free every 14 seconds essentially as long as you are level 46+?

[Ele]

So with that staff you can cast a 330~ dmg nuke for free every 14 seconds essentially as long as you are level 46+?

*And as long as nothing blocks the bolt

[maskedmelon]

Magicians in classic everquest had the ability to specialize in Conjuration. Doing this so would allow the magician to chain summon a pet and reclaim him for more mana than it would take to cast. This is not the case on this server. You can not summon a pet for less mana than it cost to make the pet even though specialization is in effect on this server. Its a shame that there isn't more gm's who actually played classic that know some of these tools.

Poppycock! That would clearly violate The Law of Conservation of Energy! Unless specialization meant that rather than working magic with less mana for the same effect, a portion of the mana was drawn from other sources... D:

Looks liked you are off to a good start substantiating with historical data. Just need to dig a bit deeper and find something from the relevant time frame. Then post all the info in the bugs forum and it will be corrected ... Eventually ^^

[ripwind]

For the amount of time it takes to cast the pet, then reclaim, why not just med the extra two ticks? At max level you're talking about a 400 mana pet. Specialization saves you a max of what, 10%? Seems like you're better off medding.

[Halius]

This is the only thing I have found so far in regards to Mage pet canni. Obviously it was there, I just don't know how good it was before AAs. Obviously after AAs it was considered OP since they changed the AA in this patch.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20031218.html

[curtischoy]

Poppycock! That would clearly violate The Law of Conservation of Energy!

I think you mean the law of equivalent exchange :)

[maskedmelon]

I think you mean the law of equivalent exchange :)

I was talking physics, good to see the alchemy recognizes the laws of the universe as well though ^^

[krforrester]

For the amount of time it takes to cast the pet, then reclaim, why not just med the extra two ticks? At max level you're talking about a 400 mana pet. Specialization saves you a max of what, 10%? Seems like you're better off medding.

Pet canni felt pretty efficient. With the instant cast reclaim energy on mage focus items it seemed pretty quick to get to full mana.

[Nagash]

Poppycock! That would clearly violate The Law of Conservation of Energy!
You clearly don't know the 4th law, said Law of Thermadynamagic.

[ko37qtl]

Pet canni felt pretty efficient. With the instant cast reclaim energy on mage focus items it seemed pretty quick to get to full mana.

Definitely better than medding. This was without any AAs. My biggest disinclination was that I'd often summon gear to give my pet, so I wasn't inclined to purge him just because I was a little low on mana. If I didn't have any big commitment to a pet and had lots of malachite, it was the fastest way to get mana back.

[Blingy]

First time poster here but long time mage player.

During PoP pet canni was extremely powerful; especially in a wipe or very long raid situation. This of course was only true if the mage had the right gear, conjuration spec'd and all relevant AA's.

It was entirely possible to go from OOM to full in under 2 minutes. A couple times my guild (farming PoTime) went back to Vex Thal with a small crew just because we could. In the marathol battles with Aten Ha Ra I could burn three full bars of mana.....not because our dps sucked that bad but because I knew I could burn mana, canni it back, burn it again, canni it back and do a third full burn.

Of course it was crap like this that led to pet canni getting nerfed but for awhile many mages had a lot of fun with it.

[ElemtalRZ]

Ive been playing a Magician on Rallos Zek since 2001. I never leveled past 59 in that time era and never had aa's. I can say with 100% certainty that I used pet canni to get mana when I played all the way up until Planes of Power when they took pet canni away by giving the aa improved reclaim magic. The aa did nothing and was later taken out because of such and pet canni was taken away forever. AA's were not a requirement for this ability, infact, when aa's came out, the ability got nerfed.

[EQJubilee]

It is my understanding that the Pet Canni (without AA's) was only possible due to conjuration specialization. Is this true? Where because you specialized in conjuration your pet spell cast at 11% less mana than listed value, yet when you used Reclaim Energy it refunded the whole listed mana (200 mana) per pet? If true, then it looks like you could get 20 extra mana per pet cannibalize (up to level 50). I guess that is semi-fast since you could get one pet cannibalize cycle done per 2 ticks...so an extra 10 per tick...almost like Clarity.

In the 50's once pet costs increase to 400 mana it would double to 20 per tick. I'm wondering why this trick didn't work with Necro pets?

[Daldaen]

You med 20/tick at 60.

This only works if the pet focus increase the HP of the pet and reclaim takes that extra 10% of HP or so and turns it into mana.

[ko37qtl]

It is my understanding that the Pet Canni (without AA's) was only possible due to conjuration specialization. Is this true? Where because you specialized in conjuration your pet spell cast at 11% less mana than listed value, yet when you used Reclaim Energy it refunded the whole listed mana (200 mana) per pet? If true, then it looks like you could get 20 extra mana per pet cannibalize (up to level 50). I guess that is semi-fast since you could get one pet cannibalize cycle done per 2 ticks...so an extra 10 per tick...almost like Clarity.

In the 50's once pet costs increase to 400 mana it would double to 20 per tick. I'm wondering why this trick didn't work with Necro pets?

I don't think that was it. The amount returned by Reclaim Energy is based in the pet's hp, so the earth pet was the go to for pet cannibalize. As I recall, I could get something back from a water pet but earth was noticeably greater, so there wasn't any question. I'm pretty sure my mage was evocation specialized because I didn't see this as my bread and butter (and I figured if I changed my mind, I could always wipe it and restart it). I think it was just that a focused earth pet sort of broke the equation by having more hp than assumed possible under Reclaim Energy. When they altered it, they left it the same but capped it at 100% of the mana initially spent.

[EQJubilee]

I don't think that was it. The amount returned by Reclaim Energy is based in the pet's hp, so the earth pet was the go to for pet cannibalize. As I recall, I could get something back from a water pet but earth was noticeably greater, so there wasn't any question. I'm pretty sure my mage was evocation specialized because I didn't see this as my bread and butter (and I figured if I changed my mind, I could always wipe it and restart it). I think it was just that a focused earth pet sort of broke the equation by having more hp than assumed possible under Reclaim Energy. When they altered it, they left it the same but capped it at 100% of the mana initially spent.

Hmm that sounds odd if it was based on pet hp...doesn't makes sense that they would use that metric and not the spell mana cost, since the pet hp's all were different and yet reclaim energy has nothing to do with pet hp, but everything to do with the mana cost of the pet spell cast.

But anyway, I asked the question in the Twitch stream tonight about mage pet canni and if it was going to be made like it was on classic, but they didn't choose my question to answer.

[ElemtalRZ]

I can say with 100% certainty in classic EQ the ammount of mana you got for reclaiming your pet was NOT based on the % of his health. Also, in order to pet canni you did have to specialize in conjuration. I know this because later I had to change my specialization up after this nerf took place. Don't know who is sitting here coming up with all these backwards magician theories but I was very surprised being a Everquest magician player for the past 15 years on live, to see my mana bar not get the exact same ammount of mana back regardless of the pets current HP.
I have played my magician since Kunark came out. I have played consistently in PVP and Raid scene. I have also played live for the past 15 years until I came here. I created "Beam" pulls if you honestly need any extra insight on how the mechanics work for the magician, ask away. Better yet, log into EQLIVE and ask the serverwide.magicians:fluffy channel. These are all mages that have been around since the game release. We shouldn't be penalized because the only Magician forum was hacked years ago...

[ElemtalRZ]

1 Class for 15 years, a magician is all I ever play, all I have ever wanted to play.

[ElemtalRZ]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y81/TravisJR/EQ000167.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/TravisJR/media/EQ000167.jpg.html)

[dali_lb]

Actually the reclaim energy spell was supposed to return mana as a % of the current/max hp of the pet, no matter how much total hp the pet has.

This was bugged on live from start in 99 and far into the next century. I can't remember when it was fixed, but propably some time after the pet canni aa's was introduced.

The isue has been braught up before on these boards, but people often think this was like a free kei buff for the mage, wich it never was. And playing a Mage on live i can tell it wasn't that great a deal. just keeping your pet and medding instead was far easier that casting 20 new pets/reclaiming energy for a few ticks of mana. but sme people think its a huge deal to get 100 mana from those 20 malachites, while they could just have sat down and go get a soda or coffee while medding and not getting a tired finger

[ko37qtl]

Hmm that sounds odd if it was based on pet hp...doesn't makes sense that they would use that metric and not the spell mana cost, since the pet hp's all were different and yet reclaim energy has nothing to do with pet hp, but everything to do with the mana cost of the pet spell cast.

But anyway, I asked the question in the Twitch stream tonight about mage pet canni and if it was going to be made like it was on classic, but they didn't choose my question to answer.

It is definitely still tied to pet hp. You get less mana back from a reclaim on a damaged pet than a healthy one. I would guess it was something like maximum earth pet hp for a given rank (or some similarly high but moving target) was intended to give back 100% mana spent casting the spell. A focused, healthy earth pet inevitably exceeds this hp value and so returned more mana than was spent in the casting.

[dali_lb]

Problem is, that the fact that you Got more mana back from a focused pet was a glitch in how the mana returned was calculated. Just like Many other glitched, like item and spell melee haste was multiplicated instead of added untill start kunark.
It was never intentet to be able to return more mana than what the pet summon used.

[krforrester]

We can argue all day whether it was a bug or intended. P99 is supposed to be classic and pet canni was classic until the post aa nerf/fix.

Unfortunately, without concrete evidence of the existence of pet canni at this point in the timeline of P99 it will not be changed. I call BS on this excuse. Everyone knows that pet canni existed at this point (during Kunark and through Velious) but it seems to me that P99 does not want it implemented and is hiding behind the "show me proof" argument. Just my opinion.

[ElemtalRZ]

/agree

[EQJubilee]

We can argue all day whether it was a bug or intended. P99 is supposed to be classic and pet canni was classic until the post aa nerf/fix.

Unfortunately, without concrete evidence of the existence of pet canni at this point in the timeline of P99 it will not be changed. I call BS on this excuse. Everyone knows that pet canni existed at this point (during Kunark and through Velious) but it seems to me that P99 does not want it implemented and is hiding behind the "show me proof" argument. Just my opinion.

There has already been multiple links posted to forum posts of the time that plainly show that pet canni was in during classic. I don't really know why the devs ignore the evidence.

[dali_lb]

You are absolutely right about that. We can argue about if long lasting glitches/bugs can be considdered "Classic". I have pointed out other things that I considder "classic" because Sony chose not to do anything about it for up to 7 years.
And yes, it seems that the devs have chosen not to listen to these things
Can only point things out. In the end its their server to do with what they want.

This will propably be the closest thing to a Classic EQ server we will ever get.
I kinda doubt that Daybreak will ever grab the idea and spent money on creating a Classic experience EQ progression server.

[Ilahn]

pet canni should work in classic the reclaim was based on pets HP not the cost of mana so ei 3000 hp pet reclaim should in classic give you 20% of pet hp as mana hence the reason pet canni was best mana regen in game ever got changed over the years to 10% then to cost of pet no matter health .. and conj spez helped alot was changed last i payed in pop back to 20% then nerfed total cuz of pop 65 earth pet lol 4 cast/reclaims withearth staff and i ws FM from almost nothing but please set back to 20% pet health as it was original was nerfed first in luclin to 10% then 20 % in pop again then cost here it is only cost i believe or 10 % minus con spez which is not near anything classic mage had i was mage back then still am now..

[sox7d]

Lol, mage with their infinite damage output robots complaining wizards have it better.


Lol.

[Kowalski]

Instead of complaining about what you and your class doesn't have, be thankful for what you do get. If you don't like it then reroll, make your own server, or just don't play.

[Madri]

We can argue all day whether it was a bug or intended. P99 is supposed to be classic and pet canni was classic until the post aa nerf/fix.

Unfortunately, without concrete evidence of the existence of pet canni at this point in the timeline of P99 it will not be changed. I call BS on this excuse. Everyone knows that pet canni existed at this point (during Kunark and through Velious) but it seems to me that P99 does not want it implemented and is hiding behind the "show me proof" argument. Just my opinion.

I'll be honest , there are a lot of things about p99 that are allowed that aren't classic. UI's , Chat options like hit mode and other changes, The use of luclin skins, i could keep going.

They are just trying to make the game more balanced. I understand this pet canni made the mage class pliable. This wasn't intended for live yet i know they didn't fix it right away.

If they wanted to keep the game completely classic a lot of the items i mentioned would be disabled like the maps are at the moment. I'm not taking their side in the decision just stating they have the control to deem what is allowed and not allowed.

We have to deal with it.

[levitical]

they have best pets in the game. plus mod rods ... i think it's an even trade. druid and wiz (epic) mana regen are only a slight improvement at lvl 60. 3 mana a tick is only 30 mana per minute which is 1 extra nuke (for wizzy) every 7 minutes... (draught of fire) standard 50+ nuke and you have to have your epic..... and you want to compare that to your epic pet which quads for what 60+? mage are best straight dps in game up to lvl 55 for the most part aside from well gears rogues/monks(in my opinion) i dunno why your crying about this :)

[Daldaen]

pet canni should work in classic the reclaim was based on pets HP not the cost of mana so ei 3000 hp pet reclaim should in classic give you 20% of pet hp as mana hence the reason pet canni was best mana regen in game ever got changed over the years to 10% then to cost of pet no matter health .. and conj spez helped alot was changed last i payed in pop back to 20% then nerfed total cuz of pop 65 earth pet lol 4 cast/reclaims withearth staff and i ws FM from almost nothing but please set back to 20% pet health as it was original was nerfed first in luclin to 10% then 20 % in pop again then cost here it is only cost i believe or 10 % minus con spez which is not near anything classic mage had i was mage back then still am now..
If you have classic evidence of 20% of pet health I would be extremely interested in seeing that.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Instead of complaining about what you and your class doesn't have, be thankful for what you do get. If you don't like it then reroll, make your own server, or just don't play.

Most of these are arguments for something they've provided was classic. Without people doing this stuff we wouldn't have half of the improvements made to the server on the name of "classic", good or bad. Anecdotes are useless but if they fire someone enough to do a little research to validate their claims it's worthwhile. It's a process.

Additionally, this has pvp repercussions among other things. While mages have great sustained DPS against targets they're rendered useless outside of pets when it comes to boss mods (try landing a Mage nuke against an fr or mr target). Mage pets are currently easy to cc and bolts have been broken for an extremely long time rendering what was arguably one of the most powerful classes into a shell of itself OR BETTER PUT, UNCLASSIC.


Wizards outshine because of lures etc... Also on blue, a wizard can easily sustain an aoe group, something even a 60 Mage has trouble with.

[Daldaen]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020305004237/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=207

GAINING MANA, By Aurora (1/28/2001)

At lvl 49 +, I find that I GAIN mana every time I reclaim and I am not even specialized in Conjuration. So I would assume those mages who specialize in Conjuration will start seeing a gain at lvl 44 +. I have been using this spell as a Mage version of Clarity at times. Just keep summoning and reclaiming and you have Clarity standing up ). Just bring tons of Malachites with you. And at lvl 44+, I don't think anyone cares about the price of Malachites. Only problem is inventory space.

That's the only classic mention I've found. Most people are citing you get back 50% of the pets mana cost (here it's 100%).

[Grimjaw]

the reason devs haven't looked into this one is because theres simply not enough concrete evidence posted here yet to determine how it worked one way or another. just a bunch of random links and peoples theores mixed in. We need to start seeing a pattern of quotes where people know what they are talking about and that can be backed up by other people, experimentation, and other things. also devs aren't going to click every link you post. if you have good evidence then quote & bold the good parts here and then provide a link to the entire thread. if the quoted part looks good to the dev then he might actually investigate your link. (see Daldaens great example above: a link, and a meaningful quote pulled from that link which makes you want to further investigate the link). you guys honestly think nilbog is like "oh but those darn mages are going to be standing instead of medding!" it has nothing to do with balance its all in the proof. hell I just realized this aint even in bug thread so why would devs even be looking at this "Class Discussion" thread like a bug report anway?

[ElemtalRZ]

http://everquest.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_school_specialization_skills

[Grimjaw]

/sigh

[SamwiseRed]

lol

weird how mages can dps decently even while oom. oh wait they the best pets in the game. this thread needs to die.

[EQJubilee]

Enchanters have the best pets in the game...

The issue is everyone knows pet canni was in during classic era, yet for some reason it isn't on this server.

[Daldaen]

Enchanters have the best pets in the game...

The issue is everyone knows pet canni was in during classic era, yet for some reason it isn't on this server.

The issue is there isn't any consensus on how it should work.

How it works here is its a 100% mana cost return
My thought was (Pet HP/Base Pet HP) * 100% mana cost = return
Classic posts suggest a 50% mana cost return
RandomGuy01 suggests a 20% * PetHP = mana return

Those are the ways I've seen it described. If you have posts that elaborate on the strategy let me know.

From 2003 this post changed Reclaik to work like:

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20031218.html


Reclaim Energy will now return 75 percent of the mana used to summon the pet, 95 percent if the caster has Improved Reclaim Energy.

http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/soearchive/viewtopic.php?f=168&t=60035

It definitely was based on HP somehow before the patch and afterwards it was based on just mana cost regardless of HP.

[Nisei]

for great justice