Is there a good reason for a raiding MNK to have a 2hb?

[TheFishyOne]

The dmg issue has been beaten to death, and I know that DWing is going to be more DPS, more consistently. I have No 2hb atm, tho, and am wondering if I should buy one for DS mobs, or for any other reason a 2hander would be preferable to DWing. My budget right now allows me to buy ONE of the folowing: a pb (no 2hb weapon), an ada club for MH (have jade mace + SoS, atm), or a 2nd tink bag (have one already, plus a large soiled). I'm leaning more toward either a pb or another tink bag. What do you guys think?

[Cecily]

It's always nice to not kill yourself in sky or plane of hate on damage shields.
I admittedly know nothing about monk weaponry though. Is a T-Staff proc too much agro for raiding?

[whitebandit]

At least on live, when monks started getting riposte AA and the fact most mobs were doing Rampages.. using a 2HB was beneficial for a few reasons.. Primarily that when you are using 2HB you are less likely to be riposted by the mobs, and when you riposte yourself you would do more damage then when using 1hander. Your mention of the DS is also valid as, especially later (maybe not classic so much) a lot of raid mobs have crazy high dmg ds.

IMO - if you are tanking as a monk, or happen to eat rampage, 2HB will allow you to live longer.

[evilkorn]

Peacebringer for DS mobs would be best. Unless you carry lots of clickies and extras the tink bag probably won't be worth it. You didn't specify level but you really won't see the benefit of the ada club till it procs 50+ with the stun damage mitigation, same with t-staff.

Is a T-Staff proc too much agro for raiding?

I tend to think so. Also most monks tend to shy away from the front of a mob and think they are a rogue who needs to be in the back. This can cause mobs to turn and just lead to poor agro control.

[fiveeauxfour]

Tstaff is good for pvp!

[Cecily]

Monk dps is largely independent from position, so the real answer is monk's are idiots when their choice of position causes problems with push or agro (blowing rogue stabs).

[Kreylyn]

If you don't, you're an idiot, hypothetically.

And as a dps monk, which you would be, as an idiot, your job is DPS. And you do significantly more dps from behind than in front.

Monk dps is largely independent from position, so the real answer is monk's are idiots when their choice of position causes problems with push or agro (blowing rogue stabs).

Um... My understanding is that attacks from behind remove the mobs chance at dodge/parry/riposte. It also negates the avoidance AC (agil + defense modifiers) so you hit more more dmg more often.

That's for ALL melee...

Krey

[Daldaen]

Um... My understanding is that attacks from behind remove the mobs chance at dodge/parry/riposte. It also negates the avoidance AC (agil + defense modifiers) so you hit more more dmg more often.

That's for ALL melee...

Krey

It is my understanding when all melee are on a single side of the mob the mob will get pushed out of melee range of several who aren't moving with the mob.

It is my contention that the loss of these Autoattack swings, backstab and flying kicks which miss due to be out of range, total more damage than the damage gained by monks hitting for a bit more in the back arc.

[Cecily]

It's more important to balance push for group / raid sanity. Also important to know when to not balance push. Seems like the only time most players actually do manage to balance it is when the mob is casting CH or gate, which is bad btw.

[Haikushin]

tstaff for no ripostes
twig and epic fist for push
good luck my brother

[Kreylyn]

It is my understanding when all melee are on a single side of the mob the mob will get pushed out of melee range of several who aren't moving with the mob.

It is my contention that the loss of these Autoattack swings, backstab and flying kicks which miss due to be out of range, total more damage than the damage gained by monks hitting for a bit more in the back arc.

It's more important to balance push for group / raid sanity. Also important to know when to not balance push. Seems like the only time most players actually do manage to balance it is when the mob is casting CH or gate, which is bad btw.

My response was about game mechanics, and how position does effect the dps.

I feel your responses can be attributed to poor tactics and/or playing (not judgeing specifically you 2 I quoted, I'm sure you play well and have great tactics and are only talking about others). Balance can be achieved by equally splitting melee on either side of the mob as front is only 180* as the mob is facing. You can achieve both dps and balance by doing so. If that's hard... well.. okay.

Krey

[fiveeauxfour]

Monk dps is largely independent from position, so the real answer is monk's are idiots when their choice of position causes problems with push or agro (blowing rogue stabs).

Monk dps does depend on positioning insofar as the mob cannot parry/riposte/dodge etc when someone is smacking them from the back. Additionally, I believe that the back of the mob has lowered AC.

However, mob push during raids is more undoubtedly more important and a monk-- all dps for that matter-- should be conscious of their positioning and the general push of the mob and how the raid desires said target to be handled.

Edit: In terms of the OP's original question, it is very rare when a monk needs to pull out the 2hb. Only times I would use a 2hb is when I'm soloing or tanking or pvp, but these situations are rare as monk soloing 50+ is difficult without raid gear and monk can tank but its just not preferable. Epic+sos is just such good dps right now that I can't see why one would want to use 2bh except to mix it up on a fight or two. If I'm not mistaken, innerflame benefits dual wield more than it does 2hb.

In terms of damage shields and eating rage, yea 2hb will be better; but you should NEVER eat rage and there are usually casters present to remove DS.

[Colgate]

it is insanely moronic to think that any melee other than the tank shouldn't be behind a mob

until sky fists(which shouldn't even be in-game), trorsmang + offhand hits is best DPS but it's insanely tedious

tstaff pulls way too much aggro

epic fist + stave of shielding is only marginally worse than the aforementioned trorsmang method

[Cecily]

I guess I'm just saying it doesn't matter if you min-max your damage, because you're a moderate damage dealing class regardless of where you stand.
I'd rather you not brain dead push mobs into annoying spots than add 2-3 dps.

[Kreylyn]

I guess I'm just saying it doesn't matter if you min-max your damage, because you're a moderate damage dealing class regardless of where you stand.
I'd rather you not brain dead push mobs into annoying spots than add 2-3 dps.

I'm really not picking on you. :p

If someone is brain dead enough to push the mob into annoying spots, are those not the same peeps who are going to eat rage? I just don't see your fix being effective 100%. I'm sure you can argue the finer points of which two ineffective ways are more damaging to the raid over all, but that's not my point to start with. My point is train all raid peeps to not do either.

Don't get me wrong, I know for a fact people in general can be/do some real dumbass things. It's my opinion though that a good raid force is one that's trained, the right way... in all aspects, to maximize their success. I do think a raid force should be min/max on raid tactics. Lots of people want to talk about gear... yet I've seen first hand a properly working raid force recover mid fight from a mistake, half the force not looting all their gear and with res effects still on, to drop the mob. Properly trained even if you have 1 dumbass work their magic, the rest of the raid can recover because they are trained well.

I remember many a raid fight (raid guild on live) where the difference between Woot! and "F@#K!" was only that last 5% of mob health.

So I challenge your assessment that it's only 2-3 dps difference. I don't think that's right and would love to see some parsing to back that statement up. I feel those were numbers you guessed at intentionally low to make your point. Similar to how people make up percentages in mid conversation. Not meant to be accurate, but to express an idea or concept.

BUT... even if that was the case, and since we are talking a raid party here... lets go with that guesstimate for a moment and also guesstimate the raid party is 50% melee for a raid party of 60 peeps.

30 X 2-3dps = 60-90 dps. That alone can be the difference of a raid party nullifying the innate mob regeneration to make it a successful fight... or one where the clerics run OOM in that last 5% of mob health.

I know Velious isn't out yet, and that raid tactics will change when it does come out for some guilds. Perhaps now it's not as important to min/max every tactic. I also know players can still be successful with out giving 100% every time.

I would suggest that if the raid goal IS to be as efficient as possible every time, then it is much easier to recover from mistakes when they do happen.

To me, that approach is what set my live server Raid guild (in the days of Kunark and Velious) apart from the rest of the 99%... ranking them in the top 3-5 raid guilds for the server at the time.

Honestly though... this discussion could be simply the difference of our outlook on the situation. An optimistic vs pessimistic view. Besides, it's all hugely situational anyways. :D

Krey

[Cecily]

Why do you think I think you're picking on me. Go ahead and challenge those 2-3 dps I made up lol. Just know I don't consider monks a real DPS class. They are better used to maintain push than DPSing from rear in the small number of situations that would call for it.

I mean, yes, they do deal some damage. But it's cute in a ranger sort of way compared to rogues and wizards.

[Daldaen]

If you are a melee, playing project 1999 and get 'mob is out of range', pretty much ever unless it is chasing someone, then you are absolutely terrible. Reroll to a rollface class.

Wow.

I dunno, some hit boxes like Bazzt Zzzt are horrible.

[Trazic]

It's more important to balance push for group / raid sanity.

A million times this. Back in my raiding guild on live we had very strict rules on melee positioning. As a result the mobs would be pinned in place. Made it so much easier as a rogue.

When every melee attacks from behind the mobs gets pushed all around the room and through the tank causing it to turn around and face the raid. And on mobs with small hitboxes once they are pushed out of melee range it can be difficult to get back in range because of the collision between the players crowding the back of the mob.

It is actually hilarious watching a raid that does not control push.

[Colgate]

my guild raids with upwards of 90 people and the massive push in one direction is really a non-issue

there is zero reason to attack from the front as anything but the tank

why lower your damage output and subject yourself to ripostes from raid mobs that hit for 20% of your max hp? because your tank can't move with the mob and your rogues are also that bad?

[Cecily]

Yeah, 90 person zergs pushing in the same direction don't make much of a difference in Kunark.
90 people to kill anything in Kunark is pretty lol btw (355.55 damage per person), but GL with that in Velious.

[Tuljin]

<pixellatedscreenshotofzerglingsfromsc1.jpg>

[drktmplr12]

If you are a melee, playing project 1999 and get 'mob is out of range', pretty much ever unless it is chasing someone, then you are absolutely terrible. Reroll to a rollface class.

Wow.

Wat?

Context is key here. I can think of at 5 reasons you would be too far.

1. raid pushed it away
2. ogre/troll warriors blocking rear of mob
3. hit box shitty
4. mob is rooted and you want to be max melee
5. mob does a PB aoe and you will be terrible if you get hit by it

[Colgate]

Yeah, 90 person zergs pushing in the same direction don't make much of a difference in Kunark.
90 people to kill anything in Kunark is pretty lol btw (355.55 damage per person), but GL with that in Velious.

it's not hard for a tank to flip a mob around within healing range