Will Kunark bugs exist?

[Stanlei]

Since the server is supposed to be patched like live, are we to believe that the bow bug that was in for 2 days will be in when kunark comes out?
I speak of the bug where your bow would shoot as fast as you could push the button to shoot.
During that bug it took 3 rangers about 10 min to kill Gorenaire, she mostly dropped spells though, that selfish dragon! =/

If those bugs are in, will we be able to forage items like the Cloak of Flames that was foraged in Seb? or the Amulet of Necropotence I got out of Field of Bone?

Will the pally epic proc an infinate dot that does more damage than any mob in Kunark has health?(again making Gorenaire an easy solo kill)

Will Naggy and Vox punt you at 53 right away? or will there be a grace period like there was in live before that gets changed and the punts get added?

I can understand if they are fixed as they were never ment to exist in the first place, and recreating a bug would seem kind of silly. Still, those things did happin in classic and it lead to some interesting conversations and stories :) I wouldn't mind having another go at Gorenaire or Venral Sathir with a solo pally again. :mad:

[Deathmask]

As a shadowknight that knows of no bugs like this to exploit I'd have to say no way man that's plain cheating out of pure selfishness and jealousy from me. :P

Honestly I was wondering if in the future any class would be solo'ing dragons in project 1999.

[Omnimorph]

P99 has it's very own bugs, so no they won't be copying other bugs! also if you exploit these bugs there's a chance you'll get banned! :p

[Stanlei]

if you exploit these bugs there's a chance you'll get banned! :p

I can understand and appreciate that, however what are you to do if you are the first paladin with the Fiery Defender? Just not use it? =P

[Omnimorph]

Well I'd like to think it's easy to recognise the difference between someone actively exploiting something and someone who doesn't know it's an exploit or are doing it accidentally.

[Lazortag]

An interesting point was raised here. For example, when Bard mana regen was a little too good, I used that shit all the time when aoe kiting. It didn't give me a huge advantage, but being able to regen FULLY up to a denon's desperate dirge before repops, and nuke down a quad of spectres when they got low was nice. This was obviously pretty exploitative even if the benefit to me wasn't that great. So what was I supposed to do? Just never sit down? Just never use my mana when it was full? How do you ever distinguish between someone "abusing" an exploit like that, and someone thinking they're doing something perfectly normal?

[Ponden]

I wouldn't mind having another go at Gorenaire or Venral Sathir with a solo pally again. :mad:

Good luck.

[yaaaflow]

Yeah dude I totally just heard from rogean that they are gonna put alllll of those gamebreaking bugs back into the game, along with all the ways to dupe items, all the ways to cause zones/the server to crash, all of it!

[Omnimorph]

Well if you think you've stumbled upon a bug that is exploitable, put it in the forum. If you hear nothing about it it's probably okay.

Think back to the stacking bug, people knew it was a bug, some people took the liberty to make thousands and thousands of plat. These people were rightfully banned. And the server was rolled back.

Sure the situation might not be as black and White as that instance, but you've got a pretty good idea if what you're doing is a blatant exploit.

[Messianic]

My favorite bug of all time in any MMO:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4443506634239856545#

[Bushwick]

There was an interesting bug in the Field of Bone involving that yellow spider that was a slightly rare spawn in the tunnels. Instead of proccing a weak poison, the spell attached to it's attack was instead one that summoned a mid-level mage pet. For the target player.

[Messianic]

There was an interesting bug in the Field of Bone involving that yellow spider that was a slightly rare spawn in the tunnels. Instead of proccing a weak poison, the spell attached to it's attack was instead one that summoned a mid-level mage pet. For the target player.

Eat your heart out, brazier of elemental summoning...

[Falindorf]

I personally think the OP has a valid question. While I REALLY hope these bugs are not implemented, there are other *BUGS* the devs have specifically implemented. Lets take for example the Multiquest of JBoots. Is there anyone that can honestly say that multiquesting anything was not a bug? If it was intended to work this way why even make items no drop. Items were made no drop so people would have to get them items themselves to do the quests. The MultiQuest was a bug. This one has been specifically recoded to *break* the current EMU server to allow this *bug* to exist simply because it existed in live and the devs are trying to create a replica as close as they can.

[guineapig]

As far as the level limit on old world dragons:

That wasn't a bug and there is a set amount of time you will have where there is no level limit, just like it happened on Live. We should have about 2 months:

April 17, 2000 Kunark goes live

June 22, 2000 Naggy and Vox level 52 cap implemented.

[Messianic]

Lets take for example the Multiquest of JBoots. Is there anyone that can honestly say that multiquesting anything was not a bug?

Did Verant or SoE ever call it a bug, fix it, ban anyone for exploiting this "bug," or even take steps to try to prevent people from MQing generally? Not to my recollection, which could be flawed...

I'd like to see any actual evidence regarding why MQing is a bug...not just "No drop items exist, therefore MQing is a bug." That's a pretty weak argument. No drop items in general can exist for countless other reasons completely separate from MQing.

Edit: Did some quick research. SoE did nerf certain MQs (in like 2003 or thereafter apparently, and none of those were classic quests apparently), but not others. The only thing preventing the devs here from allowing MQing for all quests is the fact that they would have to re-write each quest individually.

[yaeger]

As far as the level limit on old world dragons:

That wasn't a bug and there is a set amount of time you will have where there is no level limit, just like it happened on Live. We should have about 2 months:

April 17, 2000 Kunark goes live

June 22, 2000 Naggy and Vox level 52 cap implemented.

I doubt that was intentional. With a new release like Kunark they were probably too busy to immediately address this issue. There were a lot of over-the-top bugs when Kunark was released and this probably had a lower priority. Plus it probably took a while for the problem to become recognized, decisions made, and a plan implemented/tested.

That shouldn't be the case in P1999.

[yaeger]

Did Verant or SoE ever call it a bug, fix it, ban anyone for exploiting this "bug," or even take steps to try to prevent people from MQing generally? Not to my recollection, which could be flawed...

I'd like to see any actual evidence regarding why MQing is a bug...not just "No drop items exist, therefore MQing is a bug." That's a pretty weak argument. No drop items in general can exist for countless other reasons completely separate from MQing.

Edit: Did some quick research. SoE did nerf certain MQs (in like 2003 or thereafter apparently, and none of those were classic quests apparently), but not others. The only thing preventing the devs here from allowing MQing for all quests is the fact that they would have to re-write each quest individually.

Good thing about MQs: Allows you to barter for things you couldn't normally obtain for whatever reason to complete quests.

Bad thing about MQs: Allows you to complete quests you have no right in completing (Twinking probably being the big decider).

[guineapig]

I doubt that was intentional. With a new release like Kunark they were probably too busy to immediately address this issue. There were a lot of over-the-top bugs when Kunark was released and this probably had a lower priority. Plus it probably took a while for the problem to become recognized, decisions made, and a plan implemented/tested.

That shouldn't be the case in P1999.

Well on P99 2 months = roughly 8-9 spawns so it really isn't a big deal.

And honestly, I don't think anything will change even after the cap is implemented. The guilds that want the drops from Naggy/Vox have plenty of alts that they can keep level 52 if they wanted to.

As far as it not being intentional I'm not sure what you mean:

Over the past couple of weeks, we've received more and more reports of these dragons being bested by smaller and smaller groups of higher- level (high 50s) adventurers. As we've always felt that Dragons should be special encounters that require a large number of people, we were left with some choices.

One choice available to us was to increase the power of the dragons to a level where the level 60 folks would find them challenging. This would have the disadvantage of forever placing them out-of-reach for those who did not buy Kunark, and place them further out-of-reach for those who did, but are just now approaching the levels where they could go on Dragon raids. Another possible solution was to make the dragons flee (depop) when engaged by a more powerful group of people. This would have the undesired effect of allowing some people to deny others the experience of fighting a dragon.

Instead of raising the bar as mentioned above, we've instead decided that dragons, or at least these two dragons, should have the magical ability to pick their own fights. Players of level 53 or above will now encounter some difficulty when attempting to assist in combat with these dragons. This should help 40s and low 50-level characters with their chances to encounter a dragon without worry of getting forced out by much higher level players. In addition, it also has the added effect of creating a natural progression from the younger dragons of Antonica to the elder and more formidable dragons of Kunark.

They intentionally left things the way they were when Kunark was released and then eventually changed their minds. It's no different then when they decided to change CT, PoH, PoF, etcetera, or when they decided that manastones were "too powerful".

We are following the natural progression of the classic EQ timeline. The level cap on dragons should be treated no differently then things like Lustrous Russet and Rubicite drop nerfs.

[Falindorf]

"No drop items exist, therefore MQing is a bug." That's a pretty weak argument. No drop items in general can exist for countless other reasons completely separate from MQing.


Please enlighten me on why developers would specificly create quest components (specifically items that can not be used for anything other than a specific quest say the cleric ingots for the Sol Ro Armor) as no drop items and then code ways around the no drop portion if it is not a bug. This makes no sense. I am am sorry I can see no other use for these types of items being no drop.

That being said I am not saying that Multiquesting shouldn't be here. Nor am I saying I want all the "BUGS" listed by the OP. What I am saying is that he question is valid. Some bugs here ARE being reproduced. To what extent those bugs are being reporduced is the question.

[yaeger]

Over the past couple of weeks, we've received more and more reports of these dragons being bested by smaller and smaller groups of higher- level (high 50s) adventurers. As we've always felt that Dragons should be special encounters that require a large number of people, we were left with some choices.

Sounds more reactionary than anything else. Trivializing Vox and Naggy was never the intention and they implemented an entirely new system as a response.

It proves everything I said, and I doubt the devs will leave the dragons as easy prey for high levels to farm 8-9 times, it doesn't make any sense as to why they'd allow it.

There's a difference between leaving in useful gear that doesn't break the game (manastone, rubicite) and stuff that does (moss covered twig, pally epic). Supporting a system that allows higher level characters (level 53+) access to easy raid loot for 2 months is ridiculous.

We won't see a repeat of it.

[Wizerud]

IMO, The fate of every bug (to fix or not to fix) on P99 should be determined by what the original intention of the way an item or mob behaved should have been. It doesn't matter if Sony took 3 months to fix something that with more manpower or the wave of a magic wand would have been fixed on day 1. It should be like that on day 1 of kunark on P99.

Design decisions or changes made that were done with the benefit of hindsight are different but in most cases common sense should prevail as to how they should appear on day 1 here.

Also don't forget that we are working on the titanium client so aren't the devs pretty much having to backtrack in order to emulate what it was like back then? If so, they'd have to intentionally re-implement every bug that existed until such time that it was fixed on Live, by timeline. I'm pretty sure their time could be spent on more pressing things like P99-specific bugs.

[Dantes]

Trivializing mana and health generation was obviously not the intention either. Yet rubicite and the mana stone were left in the game just like the real progression on classic. How is this different? The dragon cap is not a BUG, it's a gameplay adjustment.

[guineapig]

Sounds more reactionary than anything else. Trivializing Vox and Naggy was never the intention and they implemented an entirely new system as a response.

It proves everything I said, and I doubt the devs will leave the dragons as easy prey for high levels to farm 8-9 times, it doesn't make any sense as to why they'd allow it.


It's no different then when level 60's were able to farm Fear and Hate until it was finally decided to change those zones. That's the natural progression of the Classic time-line.

Like Dantes said, it was a gameplay adjustment. This server has been following the timeline of these adjustments the same way it has been following the timeline of zones being implemented.

(Also, the old world dragons are pretty trivial now.)

But like I said before. Even if they did cap the dragons the moment Kunark launched (which is not classic), it wouldn't change who is currently killing the dragons. They might be a bit less contested than they are now and there might be slower response times from when the dragons pop but that level 52 cap isn't going to hamper anybody.

[Wizerud]

Trivializing mana and health generation was obviously not the intention either. Yet rubicite and the mana stone were left in the game just like the real progression on classic. How is this different? The dragon cap is not a BUG, it's a gameplay adjustment.

I don't think it does trivialize it. There are still downsides to both of those items. Remember there were items that were either completely removed or nerfed which were considered potentially gamebreaking, so it's not like Sony were afraid to do it. With the rubi bp and manastone they probably felt that if more people had access to those items it may have potentially altered the game detrimentally so rather than do that they just halted the supply and made the existing ones out there rare status symbols.

[Messianic]

Please enlighten me on why developers would specificly create quest components (specifically items that can not be used for anything other than a specific quest say the cleric ingots for the Sol Ro Armor) as no drop items and then code ways around the no drop portion if it is not a bug.

Perhaps the same reason WoW made so many items Bind on Equip - they wanted to increase the difficulty of acquiring the item (since after you equipped the item in wow, you could only vendor it). However, when people realized they could MQ (and it was done very overtly), it wasn't considered that big a deal, and MQing was never nerfed, despite obvious potential for it to be nerfed.

If you strictly define "bug" as "anything unintentional to 'the vision'", sure, it's a bug. But they never fixed it, nerfed it, nor deemed it a serious problem when they had power to do so, so they probably realized it wasn't a big deal to enforce, and allowed the "bug" to exist, making it part of normal gameplay, and no longer a "bug," since it was incorporate into the game. MQing is also harder than simply going to EC and paying someone money - there is a trust component and a much greater incident of fraud in MQ cases, so it's not like it's equal to simply buying the item from another player - an increased level of difficulty does result, and so making the item "No Drop" does, in fact, increase the difficulty of acquiring the item and encourages more players to camp for it as opposed to buying it on the open market, and in conclusion makes the resulting item more rare and more valuable. All of these are intentions of making something no drop that do not require the specific intention of "players must physically kill the mob to acquire X item."

Apparently Verant and SoE were okay with that being circumvented, nullifying its status as a "bug."

The fact that they didn't do a thing to stop players (nerf, fix, or change anything about it) that's proof positive that it wasn't a bug in the same way dupe exploits, pathing bugs that made it impossible for mobs to hit you, or any number of other issues were accurately identified as "bugs."

Some bugs here ARE being reproduced. To what extent those bugs are being reporduced is the question.

Sure, and that's a valid subject of discussion - but MQing, even if you make the stretch to call it a bug, has to be a separate category of bug.

[yaeger]

It's no different then when level 60's were able to farm Fear and Hate until it was finally decided to change those zones. That's the natural progression of the Classic time-line.

Like Dantes said, it was a gameplay adjustment. This server has been following the timeline of these adjustments the same way it has been following the timeline of zones being implemented.

(Also, the old world dragons are pretty trivial now.)

But like I said before. Even if they did cap the dragons the moment Kunark launched (which is not classic), it wouldn't change who is currently killing the dragons. They might be a bit less contested than they are now and there might be slower response times from when the dragons pop but that level 52 cap isn't going to hamper anybody.

Except the drops from Vox/Naggy are still very useable by level 60 players.

Most people play to enjoy the experience, to play the game just like classic was played. There will always be those people who want the bugs to stay in so they can exploit the hell out of them from day 1. Only as long as it can somehow benefit them.

/clap