(Yet Another) Necromancer Race Thread

[loramin]

Ok first off, I understand: Iksar are the master race (racial regen + Lich = win).

But with that being said, I read a great post recently (which I can't find now, thanks a lot forum search :() that made a very good case for why Erudites were actually the better race for things like leveling, PvP and breaking a room full of mobs. The post crunched a bunch of numbers to show that the Iksar regen didn't come close to making up for the racial XP penalty, and that because Erudites could use non-Iksar-wearable gear they can have much higher max Intelligence (and then, once you hit the soft cap, higher max HP). The poster even made a mock Magelo just to demonstrate the difference.

So I was wondering ...

1. Does anyone know which post I'm talking about and can link it?
2. That post seemed oriented around Kunark-era gear: will the same logic still apply in the Velious era?
3. How do Dark Elves fit in to the picture gear-wise? Can they only wear the same stuff as an Iksar, or do they (like Erudites) have any high quality gear that's specific to them?

[Safon]

Play what you want, though as much as I despise min maxing Iksar regen really is pretty great for necro's

[Faron]

Play what you want, though as much as I despise min maxing Iksar regen really is pretty great for necro's

It's great for necro's what? Don't leave us hangin dude.

[shamanredux]

Max mana means basically nothing for necro, right? Even if the regen doesn't quite make up for the exp penalty, it will worth it AT 60.

I really feel like necro is the only class that has a "must roll" race. Even more so than ogre warriors and iksar monks.

[Safon]

It's great for necro's what? Don't leave us hangin dude.

Substituting for clerics /w shadowbond ofc

[mr_jon3s]

if your gonna go non iksar may as well go gnome. As a gnome you can see through walls and can easily slip into the hole.

[loramin]

Play what you want, though as much as I despise min maxing Iksar regen really is pretty great for necro's

Amen to both sentiments. But the forums can be a bit of an echo chamber, and it's easy for people to over-exaggerate the differences between the races. I suspect 99% of the "Iksar = best" crowd have never actually played two different races of Necros for a meaningful amount of time OR done the number crunching on the differences between them.

As proof, look at all the pro-Iksar threads where people claim that the Iksar XP penalty is negated by the faster leveling from the regen ... and then look at the post I referenced (if anyone ever links it) where the poster does crunch the numbers and shows the regen won't even come close to making up for the XP penalty.

So I'm not arguing against the idea that in general Iksar is the best race for a level 60 Necro. I was just persuaded by the post I mentioned to think that perhaps another race, like say Erudites, could be better circumstantially.

Max mana means basically nothing for necro, right?
Well, yes and no. Like I said, for certain things such as PvP or trying to break a room with several mobs in it, it does matter. In both cases you have a limited amount of time, so the Iksar regen can't provide the benefit it normally does. Also you have to keep in mind that while any Necro race can hit the Int soft cap, an Erudite can do it while still having extra slots free for HP gear that an Iksar wouldn't. So it's not just higher max mana we're talking about, it's also higher max HP.

[loramin]

if your gonna go non iksar may as well go gnome. As a gnome you can see through walls and can easily slip into the hole.

I'd be curious to hear how Gnome gear stacks up too. I'm very ignorant of race-specific Int caster gear, so I really don't know how Gnomes compare to Erudites, Iksar, or Dark Elves in that regard.

[Faron]

Forget the xp pen or the regen. Iskars have the coolest robe sleeves in game. fact.

[Oleris]

no point of making a necro if it isn't iksar.

[Faywind]

I'm just gonna wait for Sesserdrix to chime in ;)

[Ravager]

Give him an hour; it takes time to write a treatise.

[iruinedyourday]

DE make the best necro because they are so awesome and look the best in a blighted robe, just say no to wolverine gloves and leather caps tho.

[Uteunayr]

Ok first off, I understand: Iksar are the master race (racial regen + Lich = win).

But with that being said, I read a great post recently (which I can't find now, thanks a lot forum search :() that made a very good case for why Erudites were actually the better race for things like leveling, PvP and breaking a room full of mobs. The post crunched a bunch of numbers to show that the Iksar regen didn't come close to making up for the racial XP penalty, and that because Erudites could use non-Iksar-wearable gear they can have much higher max Intelligence (and then, once you hit the soft cap, higher max HP). The poster even made a mock Magelo just to demonstrate the difference.

So I was wondering ...

1. Does anyone know which post I'm talking about and can link it?
2. That post seemed oriented around Kunark-era gear: will the same logic still apply in the Velious era?
3. How do Dark Elves fit in to the picture gear-wise? Can they only wear the same stuff as an Iksar, or do they (like Erudites) have any high quality gear that's specific to them?

Amen to both sentiments. But the forums can be a bit of an echo chamber, and it's easy for people to over-exaggerate the differences between the races. I suspect 99% of the "Iksar = best" crowd have never actually played two different races of Necros for a meaningful amount of time OR done the number crunching on the differences between them.

As proof, look at all the pro-Iksar threads where people claim that the Iksar XP penalty is negated by the faster leveling from the regen ... and then look at the post I referenced (if anyone ever links it) where the poster does crunch the numbers and shows the regen won't even come close to making up for the XP penalty.

So I'm not arguing against the idea that in general Iksar is the best race for a level 60 Necro. I was just persuaded by the post I mentioned to think that perhaps another race, like say Erudites, could be better circumstantially.

Well, yes and no. Like I said, for certain things such as PvP or trying to break a room with several mobs in it, it does matter. In both cases you have a limited amount of time, so the Iksar regen can't provide the benefit it normally does. Also you have to keep in mind that while any Necro race can hit the Int soft cap, an Erudite can do it while still having extra slots free for HP gear that an Iksar wouldn't. So it's not just higher max mana we're talking about, it's also higher max HP.

I'm just gonna wait for Sesserdrix to chime in ;)

Give him an hour; it takes time to write a treatise.

Howdy!

My first character here was Uteunayr, a level 60 Dark Elf Necromancer. While leveling, I took a great deal of notes about my leveling, and wrote a guide based on that information. You can find that here: http://wiki.project1999.com/Sesserdrix%27s_All_in_One_Necromancer_Strategy_Gui de

However, as I played my necromancer, I started to realize I was making up excuses for why I was not an Iksar. "Dark Elf hide is great! You can IVU + IV!", but then that was nerfed so it was just IV, and Circlet of Shadow does that itself. Oh well... I am already 60!

So I decided to reroll, and go Iksar. There are a few reasons for this:

1- The experience penalty is temporary. Regardless of whether or not the leveling breaks even, is faster, or is slower (and this would change at each level range based on the lich spell and the regeneration, as well as camp type), there is one ultimate truth in regard to experience penalties in EverQuest. The effective character level adjustment done by D&D is balanced off by capping your max level. That doesn't happen in EQ. Regardless of whether you are a Dark Elf, or an Iksar, both will end up 60. At this point, other than maintaining your level, the XP penalty does nothing to you. XP Penalties are a temporary problem.

2- The faction problem is temporary. There are plenty of places to vendor as an Iksar necromancer around the world. You can bank anywhere with FD. And you're already pretty much hated as a necromancer anyway. And once you're done leveling by slaughtering anything that looks at you funny, you can just faction back up. Faction penalties are a temporary problem, for most factions. There are some factions you'll probably never fix, but fuck those factions. They called you a mean name.

3- Regeneration is not something easily replaced by a Necromancer. You get Aura of Battle (+2), the Coldain Ring (+10), and Zlandie's Heart (+5). So a total of +17. With the standard +7, you can reach +24. With Demi Lich providing for a -32 HP per tick (which is bugged, btw, as it should be in the -50 or more range). So with how it stands on this server, the best a non-Iksar can do is to have -8 while sitting. This is more when standing or FD. As an Iksar, where you have +18 instead of +7, that means you're actually looking at +3 per tick while sitting with Demi Lich on. If we could wear a Fungi, this advantage would be gone. Regeneration is forever.

4- A lower base int. Although intelligence and more raw mana helps when leveling up, again, this is a temporary problem. For this part, however, we need to think a bit about the gearing: Sub 200 int, you get +~12 mana per 1 int. Over 200, it drops to ~6. For health, you get ~2hp per 1 point in stamina. I do not know what it drops to in post-200. Once either stat hits 255, the relative value of that stat drops to an absolute 0, as you gain no further stat post-255. This means any excess is "wasted" stat. The first knee jerk reaction is to say "Well, with more base int, it frees up more slots to have HP gear!", and in Kunark, that much is true. It does. However, come Velious, gear is heavily stacked with Int, Stamina, HP, and Mana. So your best HP item will most often also include a hefty dose of intellect. Lets just assume for the moment that you're in it for the long haul, and you're going to have all the best gear (at least according to the list on the wiki), biased toward HP, you'll get +163 intelligence. For an Erudite, this means 117 + 163 = 280, or 25 "wasted" stat from the get go. That is, of course, assuming you have the best items for HP, and you don't dump the extra 5 into Int. If you do dump it into Int, it pops up to 30 wasted. With an Iksar, however, at 85 int base, you're looking at 248. Add in 5 points from the left over from the 25 stamina, 5 int dump, and you're looking at 253. Go 23/7, and you will have a perfect 255, wasting no stats, and maximizing your health pool.

Now, as for the leveling speed argument, here is generally how it flows:

Lifetap is super, super, super inefficient. It is so inefficient, it slows you down. The less lifetaps you have to use, the more mana you have free to root another mob, to cast another dot, to do other stuff. Lifetaps peak at 1.77 DPM (Damage per Mana, also HP per Mana). Lifetap dots peak at 2.02 DPM. Meanwhile, a spell like Splurt has a sexy 6.1875 DPM, Plague 4.05 DPM, and Pyrocrour a 5.0 DPM. You're talking, now, a minimum of 2x more efficient, up to just a tad over 3x. The slower your HP falls, the less lifetaps you use, so the more mana you free up for your efficient spell lines. Just as lower level lifetaps are less efficient than the numbers I listed here, the other spell lines are also less efficient, but they grow in approximately the same proportion (the blood line being generally very efficient, while lifetaps are generally the least efficient).

So I leveled up a second necromancer, Sesserdrix, to level 60. At lower levels, I was leveling slower. It was clear. However, one thing I noticed (and this can be good or bad depending on how you view it) is I didn't even really start noticing the HP loss of Lich until level 34 with Call of Bones. I had noticed it much earlier on Uteunayr. On the bad side, this can lull the player into a false sense of "This spell isn't something I need to manage" for much longer than it would for Dark Elves. On the other hand, at lower levels, you suffer from more resist failures, more fear breaks, and less tools to handle the situation. Being able to have healing on yourself, while having your efficient mana return spell active is truly invaluable. Of course, at 34, you now have access to Invoke Fear, which really helps curb off the issues of early fear kiting (with just a 3 tick duration, ugh).

But as I got into higher levels, it was noticeable, but only in certain times. If you like to play AFK camps, Iksar Regen isn't terribly necessary. By the time the mob respawns, your hp and mana will both be capped. No big deal. But since I was favoring active camps, not needing to stop to med as often was a great boon. I was able to clear more specs in a given round in Oasis. I was able to maintain my mana pool while killing both nobles, Isabella, both bards, the dude by the front gate, and the upstairs noble, while with my DE, I was managing just the middle floor 5. Like it or not, charm breaks and getting punched eventually happens, and having your HP drop slower gives you a good padding buffer against getting wrecked by a charm break pet, which was a great advantage through COM and in Charasis to this day. The greater efficiency allowed me to fly through those last levels so much faster than I was able to on Uteunayr.

Now I am 60. Now I don't really go out and level, so the XP penalty doesn't mean fuck all to me. But I like that I can pop Lich and lose only 3 hp, or pop Demi Lich to get stuff back faster. I am not needing to lifetap random crap mobs just to get my health back nearly as much as I used to. When it comes to a raid recovery (pretty much the job of the necromancer at end game), I can lich mana for longer, and pump it over to clerics, enchanters, shamans, etc. while non-iksar have to click off and recast their lich form constantly, slowing their income down. Now if something goes wrong, and I am at low HP, and I FD, I regen at 14 a tick, rather than 5. With my 1.4k hp (it is slightly higher, but rounding for math), I never spend more than 10 minutes to get to max HP if I am waiting for HP to come back (1400hp/14hp a tick = 100 ticks x 6 sec per tick = 600 seconds/60 seconds per minute = 10 minutes) whereas on Uteu I'd have to stay FD for up to 28 minutes (1400hp/5hp a tick = 280 ticks x 6 sec per tick = 1680 seconds / 60 seconds in a minute = 28 minutes). But that's assuming FDing at 0hp and going to 1.4k, which is going to change from player to player based on their style. Of course, other than these type of situations, regeneration can be devalued, such as through owning regeneration gear (+17 total in Velious), or having a VP staff which gives you health for no mana, getting past the lifetap mana inefficiency.

It is sad to say, but due to just how many variables go into a leveling experience, the real test is just trying it for yourself. I'd like to see the numbers break down, and what assumptions go into the model. But ultimately, just like in WoW, social science, and basically everything that uses statistics to represent the world, simulations are going to be problematic when it comes to actual execution because of the vast number of different variables that become assumed on a simulation. What gear the player has, what type of raiding they will be doing, how active they will be to earn those items, what type of play style the player wants to pursue, and so on. These are tricky things to model, so I highly recommend anyone who doubts how much of a day and night difference non-Iksar vs Iksar is to try it. Play both to 60. Start with an Iksar, or do as I did and start with a Non-Iksar.

Plus, cool looking robes, and the FD animation knocks the other humanoid FD animation out of the water. Seriously, #style.

Now specifically to your questions...

1. Does anyone know which post I'm talking about and can link it?
2. That post seemed oriented around Kunark-era gear: will the same logic still apply in the Velious era?
3. How do Dark Elves fit in to the picture gear-wise? Can they only wear the same stuff as an Iksar, or do they (like Erudites) have any high quality gear that's specific to them?

1- I do not, but I'd like to see it!

2- It depends on your level of Velious gear. When it comes to Kunark gear, it depends on how much you weigh HP vs Mana in terms of relative benefit. There are some, like my friend Anichek, who go for a full Int build. He goes for "I want to be the biggest battery so I can dump the most mana." approach. Cool. Then there is an older friend I don't see around much anymore named Clever, who was the first 60 Iksar (or maybe just Iksar Necro?) on the server, and he goes full HP. Last I heard, he was sitting around 1.8k HP unbuffed. To each of these people, HP and Mana are worth different amounts of value. The value changes based on what your play style is. If you're going to be a heavy AFK camper, or a pure raid battery, Anichek has it right. Get the most mana, because you're going to cap your mana while medding between pulls. If you're going to be super active, chain killing mobs, and being more of a ninja necro (charming, mezzing, healing, etc) rather than a battery, then Clever has it right, because you wont get much time to be sitting to cap your mana again, so how much max mana you have doesn't mean shit. Also keep in mind that with Regen, health starts to matter less, and you don't need as much of a buffer, since you wont be losing it nearly as quickly.

I strike a middle ground myself. I sit at around 1.45k HP, and about 3.1k Mana. You can see my magelo page here (http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Sesserdrix). I am just over 200 int (as I use a logic that 1HP = 1Mana when it comes to gearing decisions). I use this because I do a bit of both of the above styles. By Velious, as I say above, the gear will be so over-saturated, it wont matter. The Erudite quest items are already overly laden with Int and Mana, whereas Sky shoulders give you near the same overall stat allocation (assuming 1hp = 1 mana, as I value it), but with some mana being health instead. By Velious, you'll be finding better stuff that the Erudite gear anyway.

As far as I see, the idea of "Erudites hit 255 faster so can put more slots to hp!" doesn't really hold up terribly well given Velious gear. Additionally, I wouldn't really be rushing for 255 cap before going for HP, I just go for whatever gives me the most HP and Mana combined, and then carry around spare gear that I can use to sway the balance based on what I am doing. Remember, int is just a means to mana. Luckily, due to regen, I don't really need much of a buffer, since I don't lose much HP at all. When I play Uteu, I need to gear far more heavily toward HP anyway, just so I have enough that I am not too low by the time a ToN can heal me without hitting 100%. The number of times the vulnerable moment happens are few and far between (the moment when you are at low HP about to lifetap to heal to just under 100%) for an Iksar. With Uteu, I'd rather raise the ceiling of HP higher so my opportune moment to lifetap is at 60-70%, rather than 30-50%. But to be honest, with Sesser, I don't really have any slots where I'd want to swap out items. Belt for a BCG would be great... but I don't feel I really use any items just for the intelligence to be honest, and that wouldn't change my gearing direction at the moment.

Ultimately, the idea of changing out int items for HP items is great... if you have HP items to shift to that even feel worth it in the first place. There's not too many slots with huge HP items to switch to, really. I suppose I could go for Rokyl Shield over Hand of the Reaper, but then I'd lose MR. Enshrouded Veil over Eyepatch, but come on, style and DMFless See Invis :D. The gloves wouldn't leave my hands for any other item. I suppose I could drop my earring for a second black sapphire and get 15 more hp. But really, there are not many huge HP items to go to. Alendrine robe would be solid increase across the board. So any advantage an Erudite has of hitting the cap and then being able to use more HP items is kind of meaningless, especially come Velious. There's not really any other huge HP items I'd like. It's not like there is a wrist with 50 HP just waiting to be used, and if only I was an Erudite, or some other high int race, I would be able to get rid of my Griffon-Hide Wrist Guard and use it. I'd still be using the items I am using now, most likely. And by the time there are huge HP increasing items, Int, Mana, and Stamina will all come with it, so it wont be a choice anymore.

3- Dark Elves, and all Non-Iksar get a few things (or maybe just a couple) an Iksar does not which are actually really good. Short of Epic, Zlandie Heart, Real Epic, and other super rare items, the best main hand you can get is a Tome of Miragul. But it is not an Iksar item. The best overall stat allocation boots are GEBS, which an Iksar cannot use. Again, this is based on the 1hp = 1mana valuing that I use. However, note, there are some decent alternatives. GEBS is 9 int, which, lets just assume that because of items like Eyepatch, VS gaunts, Hand of the Reaper, Blighted Robe, and a vast number of other items that are simply oozing intelligence, that you're over 200 int. That's 9 x 6 = 54 mana. Weigh this against Shadowbound Boots, which is +15 hp and +15 mana. That's 54 vs 30, the GEBS still wins. The only time Shadowbound would win is when you're already at 250 int (as 5 int = 30 mana which breaks even, and the other 4 is lost). By the same token, Tome of Miragul is +50 HP +50 Mana +6 Int -5 Sta. So 50 + 50 + 6(6 or 12) - 5 (2). Or, 126-162 total value, versus my favorite MH prior to another item, the Gnoll Hide Tome with 10 int, 15 hp which is 10 (6 or 12) + 15 for a total value of 75-135. It is clearly significantly better in the stats department. This is even more true at capped int. However note that come Velious, you'd only want a Zlandicar's Heart as a MH, which any necro can use, and is 1 Sta, 20 int, or 122-240 stat, PLUS 5 regen.

So it is really cumbersome to get into numbers, because you need to make a fuck ton of assumptions about what your gearing situation will be. Ultimately, regeneration is always valuable so long as you're not 100% hp, and you wont be at 100% hp until you're gaining HP with demi lich. While that may be an achievable dream in the short run on the server, whenever lich HP loss is fixed and increased to what it should be, it will no longer be achievable.

The one really great strength an erudite has is 5 more MR. However, with the recent MR cap at 255, and the nature of the role of the necromancer, this is a bit devalued. There is plenty of MR gear that is also naturally good for us to use (EoE is really great to wear, Hand of the Reaper), and come Velious these MR gear is also HP gear is also Mana gear. But more so, as a necromancer, you are unlikely to be able to land many spells on bosses on this server anyway (even though patch notes refer to lifetaps as "nearly unresistable with exception to encounters that are immune to magic or out of the acceptable level range.", in which the wording is a bit wishy washy and non-specific). Usually you're going to be there for raid recovery, twitching, throwing pets, or patch healing. And in most of those cases, you wont be up in the shit getting magic spells casted at you in the first place. Now when you're indoors, fighting against a mob you don't want to fear kite, and he is a caster, then this MR will definitely be a boon, assuming you don't have the gear to cap your resists.

Honestly, and this is just me, the best race past an Iksar is a Gnome. You can't really quantify the value of being able to look through a wall. It is so damn good. Plus, you worship Bertoxxulous, and he's an awesome god.

Ultimately, play what will give you the best classic experience. That's why we are all here anyway. If you get your rocks off on having your classic Dark Elf mullet, and love knowing your guild hall has the best damn music in this game (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jTvPKaPkx8), then go for it. Really, go for it. Me? I had no attachment to my race. I took Dark Elf because I remember enjoying the Neriak area.

And in retrospect, I probably would do it again, because I recognize that I am a player that has the time and resilience to level up two separate necromancers. But although I would again start with a DE first, I would also reroll Iksar. The main way I made cash on this server when I started was hunting down Reapers of the Dead, a clickie item with 1 charge of CH on it. Sold those things for 1.25k in EC, bought my jboots, bought everything I needed. That's how I got my start, and it gave me the income to be able to switch to Iksar without needing to worry about making money. However, I think my guide has pointed out a number of cash farming locations so that new necromancers don't have as much of a problem earning money... That has been something I've been focusing on expanding in my guide.

But I don't have any real attachment to Dark Elf. Erudites probably have my favorite lore for necromancers (I love the Heretics), but ultimately, regeneration is so fucking tits. Try it out. Seriously, just try it. If you have friends who are necromancers, see if you can play a non-iksar for a bit, and an iksar for a few hours. Just go fuck around in HS north for a while. You'll feel it.

But that doesn't matter if you are feeling crappy about thinking you *need* to go Iksar. This is EverQuest. Further, the chances that you as a Necromancer are going to be the deciding factor between a raid surviving or dying is damn near 0%. Iksar regen wont change that. Only rerolling your class will. As much as it sucks to say, we are just not that important a class. You can still get the job done as a non-Iksar. If you love your classic race, play it. If you like the look of another race, play it. It's fucking Project 1999... This isn't srs business. Your choice of Iksar or Non-Iksar isn't going to ruin anyone's day but your own, and that's only if you make a choice that you are going to be unhappy with.

Play what you find to be the most fun. For me? That's an Iksar. I love the regeneration, I love the glorious FD animation, I love the robe model, I love that I don't have to abandon my camp when I run out of food or water. I love that when I have my Hand of the Reaper on and I cast gate, when my screen freeze frames to load the next zone my iksar has his hands thrown up and to the side in the Thriller pose (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_rhXB5LtA-A/TbMSO77Zo8I/AAAAAAAAAKc/VvzQWAyCA04/s1600/thriller+dance.jpg). These are things that I love about Iksar. You may not weigh them with as much value as I do. If you don't, play another race.

If there was anything I was unclear about and you want me to try to explain more thoroughly, or anything else specific you wanted to ask me specifically about anything I wrote here, PM me. I don't usually check the forums anymore, as my life has been fairly busy, and Elite: Dangerous is far too fucking fun. But PMs go to my email, which I will see and be able to respond to. But really, play the race you'll love the most. Nothing will match that.

[loramin]

Heh, they weren't joking around when they said you were writing a treatise!

Thank you for taking the time to write all of that. It was definitely very informative, and it was nice to hear from someone who really had experienced both Iksar and non-Iksar Necros. Also I really appreciated the gear info; as I said I'm pretty ignorant on that topic, so your explanation was very helpful.

To the specific points:

1- The experience penalty is temporary.
2- The faction problem is temporary.


For the standard use case, where this Necro is someone's main or even secondary alt that they play daily, this is absolutely true. Again, I acknowledge that Iksar are the best race for a typical Necromancer. But if you don't play much, or if the Necro you are making is your 7th or 8th alt, you know the toon will never hit 60, which makes both of those "temporary" issues actually "lifetime" issues.


If you like to play AFK camps, Iksar Regen isn't terribly necessary. By the time the mob respawns, your hp and mana will both be capped. No big deal.

I was thinking more of PvP and breaking a room, but AFK camping is another perfect example where your max HP and Mana matter far more than your regen rate. These non-standard cases are the ones I'm really curious about.


Now, as for the leveling speed argument, here is generally how it flows:

...

The greater efficiency allowed me to fly through those last levels so much faster than I was able to on Uteunayr.
This surprises me, just because of the number crunching in that other thread (which I really wish I could reference; damn you ineffective forum search!) That thread basically did the math and showed it would take X more mobs per level for an Iksar, then showed how much HP the Iksar would regen in that time, and it at least made it look like the regen resulted in a comparatively miniscule amount of extra mana: enough to kill one or two extra mobs, but not enough to make up for X (which was like twenty or something).

But ultimately, just like in WoW, social science, and basically everything that uses statistics to represent the world, simulations are going to be problematic when it comes to actual execution because of the vast number of different variables that become assumed on a simulation. I highly recommend anyone who doubts how much of a day and night difference non-Iksar vs Iksar is to try it. Play both to 60. Start with an Iksar, or do as I did and start with a Non-Iksar.
True, but human experience is extremely subjective also. I mean, I have played both races for a few levels, but not enough to really appreciate the difference, and even if I had I'd trust some quality number crunching over my own feelings.


By Velious, as I say above, the gear will be so over-saturated, it wont matter. The Erudite quest items are already overly laden with Int and Mana, whereas Sky shoulders give you near the same overall stat allocation (assuming 1hp = 1 mana, as I value it), but with some mana being health instead. By Velious, you'll be finding better stuff that the Erudite gear anyway.
This is what I suspected: the post I'm referring to made a very solid case about Iksar vs. Erudite gear in the current era, but it didn't seem like it would hold up in Velious.

Ultimately, play what will give you the best classic experience. That's why we are all here anyway.

...

It's fucking Project 1999... This isn't srs business. Your choice of Iksar or Non-Iksar isn't going to ruin anyone's day but your own, and that's only if you make a choice that you are going to be unhappy with.

Absolutely. I swear, I didn't start this thread to get the forum's moral support in my race decision ;) And I also didn't want to rehash the same old "this is why Iksar are best for most people" discussion. I just want to know if, in a purely min/max way, any other race besides Iksar is better outside the standard play case. In other words, I know Iksar are best in general for grouping, actively soloing, or raiding anything other than a single mob (and maybe even then) as your main or secondary character. But if you're more focused on PvP, or you plan to AFK camp your way to the top, or you never expect to hit level 60 (but still want to get as high as possible) then which race better?

I'm still not 100% convinced that (again, in a purely min/max sense) Iksar is the clear best race for every Necromancer no matter what. Largely because of that post I keep referencing ...

I do not, but I'd like to see it!
/sigh you and me both.

[sox7d]

If you're not min-maxing, you might as well not even play this game. Period.

[shamanredux]

For "AFK" camping, Iksar are better too. Can put on a lower lich and come back having gained health and mana while FD.

[loramin]

If you're not min-maxing, you might as well not even play this game. Period.

No one (or almost no one) started out as a min/maxer. Most of us have very fond memories of playing in our early days, long before we had the slightest clue how to min/max.

Personally I think it's one of the great things about this game: you can be a super min/maxer high-end raid poop-socker, or you can be Greengrocer and just do tradeskills and tunnel questing. Or you can do anything in-between: there's no wrong way to play.

[Safon]

If you're not min-maxing, you might as well not even play this game. Period.

gtfo

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

Iksar carry salmonella, smell bad, are EVIL, talk with an annoying lisp, and pass out when the temperature goes under 40 degrees. Not worth the regen.

[captnamazing]

the temperature goes under 40 degrees. Not worth the regen.
ever seen an iksar hanging out in halas? me neither

[maskedmelon]

No one (or almost no one) started out as a min/maxer. Most of us have very fond memories of playing in our early days, long before we had the slightest clue how to min/max.
.

And then there are those who move beyond (abandon) min-maxing because it is unnecessary and they find it less rewarding using the best tool possible for every challenge. Of course you succeeded the odds were never against you! ^^

I certainly understand why peeps stick to it though. At the end of the day it is easier to share your stats than your experiences/accomplishments.

[RIP The Jacka]

iksar hands down

/thrad

[skitterburst]

no one said human?

[Whoop]

54 human nec here. Everytime i leech myself to death i curse myself for not going iksar!

Since I have to use the mana expensive hot/dot very often I think I have a bit more of downtime then iksar necs.

But I love my nechuman :)

[jarshale]

I tried an erudite necro once. Even the lowest level lich spells kicked my ass it was terrible. Iksar4life

[Celatus]

xp penalty is irrelevant at 60 with such a low lvl cap on this server who cares what the penalty is.

[Swish]

You can't beat that regen pals, you just can't... its worth the extra journey time to 60.

[Vexenu]

I wrote that original post in this thread: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110930

I also did a more detailed breakdown in this thread, which was deleted for some reason (An Iksar supremacist conspiracy?): http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173245

I was only able to find that url of the deleted thread by Google searching the following links, which I posted in that deleted thread and which demonstrate the enormous mana advantage that an Erudite enjoys over an equally geared Iksar (due to innate INT advantage, GEBs and Mantle of Souls).

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Iksarmancer

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Erudmancer

The Erudite has an extra 500 mana compared to the Iksar.

That being said, I still think that Iksar is the superior race in most situations and for most players on P1999, and is unquestionably the superior race if you're an endgame oriented player who will be spending most of your time at 60, where uber gear will start to erase the Erudite INT advantage. With Velious on the horizon this applies even more.

However, I think the Erudite Necro is a strong choice for a casual player or someone rolling a Necro primarily to level up for farming. Speaking as someone who has leveled both an Erudite Necro and an Iksar Necro from scratch (zero twinking), the low Iksar INT is really noticeable (especially at lower levels) and gives you very little cushion for things like spell resists and adds. For example, my naked Erudite Necro has nearly as much INT (147) as my HP geared Iksar Necro (155). It really takes a lot of INT and mana gear for an Iksar to begin erasing the Erudite INT advantage. Given the abundance of cheap gear on Blue at this point, however, this may be less of a problem.

The Erudite INT (mana) advantage is also huge in PvP given the short time frame of most fights, an obvious fact which is totally lost on most people who just parrot the "Iksar = best" argument without thinking. The Erudite has the extra mana for 2-3 extra casts of Deflux, for example, which gives him +600 healing and -600 damage to his enemy, a 1200 hitpoint differential that can be cast in about 15 seconds total. The Iksar regen advantage over 15 seconds is obviously meaningless in comparison. Alternatively, the mana could be used to cover an additional cast or two of a big DoT like Envenomed Bolt or Vexing Mordinia. High level Necro spells cost a lot of mana, and an Iksar running around in resist gear doesn't have a lot of wiggle room due to his low mana pool. And since PvP fights as a caster are too short for regen to become a big factor, the Erudite mana pool advantage is obviously a big deal. Velious gear will reduce this advantage somewhat, but not as greatly as it will on Blue, since resist gear will still be the priority in PvP over INT/mana. At the very high end, however, Iksars will come out ahead.

So basically, I would recommend going Iksar if you're a Blue player with an endgame raiding focus, or if you are able to twink your Necro with a good amount of INT gear. I would recommend going Erudite if you're a Red player, if you are starting a new Necro from scratch with nothing, or if you are just trying to make a farming alt to level to the low 50s as quickly as possible. If you are an ultra neckbeard who will for sure have BiS or near-BiS on either Blue or Red, go Iksar.

[planeofdreams]

Informative posts guys.

Only played Iksar to 54, but I found these considerations to be very interesting. For a while I've been thinking about rolling a Necro from another race when I reach max level, and now I have more to think about.

[mr_jon3s]

So basically, I would recommend going Iksar if you're a Blue player with an endgame raiding focus, or if you are able to twink your Necro with a good amount of INT gear. I would recommend going Erudite if you're a Red player, if you are starting a new Necro from scratch with nothing, or if you are just trying to make a farming alt to level to the low 50s as quickly as possible. If you are an ultra neckbeard who will for sure have BiS or near-BiS on either Blue or Red, go Iksar.

Why would you start as an erudite necro from scratch with nothing?? Iksars have some of the easiest ways to make money at the start. Skeletons drop shields that sell for 1pp. Kurns has icy wand of soloist and iksar berserker club. WW has giants with stuff that drops and shrunken goblin earring. Loio has bracer of the hidden and the invis click ring. Swamp of no hope has the froglok that has a chance of droping high lvl gems.

[Vexenu]

Why would you start as an erudite necro from scratch with nothing?? Iksars have some of the easiest ways to make money at the start. Skeletons drop shields that sell for 1pp. Kurns has icy wand of soloist and iksar berserker club. WW has giants with stuff that drops and shrunken goblin earring. Loio has bracer of the hidden and the invis click ring. Swamp of no hope has the froglok that has a chance of droping high lvl gems.

The easiest way to make money is to level, and the Erudite levels faster and has an easier time doing so because 147 starting INT allows you more breathing room than 110 starting INT for the things that matter, like getting your snare or fear resisted. This is not theorycrafting, either. I've leveled both untwinked and the Erudite was easier.

As for those camps, none of them are realistic money makers for a new characters (i.e. you can't realistically camp Grachnist until your 40s, the Solist Wand/IBC are horrendous camps with bad payoffs, Bracer of Hidden is stupidly rare and you can't plow through the volume of Sarnaks necessary until 49 or so, and the Gazughi ring is another horrendous camp unless you get lucky). And on top of all that, if you really wanted to there's no reason you couldn't do those same camps as an Erudite, anyway.

[Crawdad]

Played up-to-PoP raiding Erudite Necro on Live, have a ...48? Iksar Necro here.

At this point, the game is nearly 16 years old, and people (especially here) want to min/max. For those people, Iksar is the way to go. Like others have said, there just aren't any items available on this server comparable to the natural regen--and there wont be.

But unless you honestly believe you're going to raid, or rush to 53/60 to farm plat, it really doesn't matter. People have made a good case for Erudite/Iksar/Gnome, but that doesn't mean you can't enjoy the ambiance/feel of being a Darkelf or Human Necro.

You already know what you want to play, so just play it!

[Uteunayr]

I wrote that original post in this thread: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110930

I also did a more detailed breakdown in this thread, which was deleted for some reason (An Iksar supremacist conspiracy?): http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173245

I was only able to find that url of the deleted thread by Google searching the following links, which I posted in that deleted thread and which demonstrate the enormous mana advantage that an Erudite enjoys over an equally geared Iksar (due to innate INT advantage, GEBs and Mantle of Souls).

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Iksarmancer

http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Erudmancer

The Erudite has an extra 500 mana compared to the Iksar.

That being said, I still think that Iksar is the superior race in most situations and for most players on P1999, and is unquestionably the superior race if you're an endgame oriented player who will be spending most of your time at 60, where uber gear will start to erase the Erudite INT advantage. With Velious on the horizon this applies even more.

However, I think the Erudite Necro is a strong choice for a casual player or someone rolling a Necro primarily to level up for farming. Speaking as someone who has leveled both an Erudite Necro and an Iksar Necro from scratch (zero twinking), the low Iksar INT is really noticeable (especially at lower levels) and gives you very little cushion for things like spell resists and adds. For example, my naked Erudite Necro has nearly as much INT (147) as my HP geared Iksar Necro (155). It really takes a lot of INT and mana gear for an Iksar to begin erasing the Erudite INT advantage. Given the abundance of cheap gear on Blue at this point, however, this may be less of a problem.

The Erudite INT (mana) advantage is also huge in PvP given the short time frame of most fights, an obvious fact which is totally lost on most people who just parrot the "Iksar = best" argument without thinking. The Erudite has the extra mana for 2-3 extra casts of Deflux, for example, which gives him +600 healing and -600 damage to his enemy, a 1200 hitpoint differential that can be cast in about 15 seconds total. The Iksar regen advantage over 15 seconds is obviously meaningless in comparison. Alternatively, the mana could be used to cover an additional cast or two of a big DoT like Envenomed Bolt or Vexing Mordinia. High level Necro spells cost a lot of mana, and an Iksar running around in resist gear doesn't have a lot of wiggle room due to his low mana pool. And since PvP fights as a caster are too short for regen to become a big factor, the Erudite mana pool advantage is obviously a big deal. Velious gear will reduce this advantage somewhat, but not as greatly as it will on Blue, since resist gear will still be the priority in PvP over INT/mana. At the very high end, however, Iksars will come out ahead.

So basically, I would recommend going Iksar if you're a Blue player with an endgame raiding focus, or if you are able to twink your Necro with a good amount of INT gear. I would recommend going Erudite if you're a Red player, if you are starting a new Necro from scratch with nothing, or if you are just trying to make a farming alt to level to the low 50s as quickly as possible. If you are an ultra neckbeard who will for sure have BiS or near-BiS on either Blue or Red, go Iksar.

Okay, retyping this because the damn forums logged me out as I submitted:

My first reaction to those magelos was horror, lol. Then I realized that you were gearing those magelo toons for Red. That makes a lot more sense now. Everything I wrote is centered on blue focused PvE necromancers. I have absolutely no stake in PvP, and I know 0 about PvP (fixed!) necromancer, other than you can't fear players.

What I will comment on is the lower base int being a problem for undergeared players. I disagree. Having less mana can be tricky, as you are susceptible to chain resists, but we have the ultimate way around that: feign death. Flop it, and try again if all fails. But even then, with my new necromancer Daudsormr, I am sitting at 110 int, which is what a naked Iksar necromancer would have. Hunting in Oasis of Marr, I don't run into issues killing a relatively steady stream of mobs to be honest. I don't feel my mana being strained.

However, other people might. I do not disagree with that. My point is solely that this is subjective, and maybe weighted differently on the PvP server based on the leveling experience there. On blue? I don't have a problem running around with 110 int and no mana items. Additionally, it is worth noting that there are a good number of ways to make money quickly and efficiently at lower levels. Sisters camps drop bronze weapons, you have some decent drops in Kurns (as already pointed out), there are gargoyles... There are plenty of ways to make money in the game world without necessarily needing to throw levels at the game to make money, and therefore one should go Erudite. But then again, on blue, some really good items are cheap. Prices are likely higher on red, so being able to race to higher income spots is probably more needed to get geared, therefore increasing the value of going Non-Iksar for the leveling speed. But on blue, you can earn enough money to buy lower end high int and hp items (Stein, Fire rings) at really low levels.

So I wouldn't necessarily jump to saying that if you're a new player and you can't twink a toon, go non-iksar. Just like XP and faction, gearing is a temporary issue, especially on blue. By Velious, gear is so over laden with int, stamina, health, mana, that the difference in stats will be nothing. Even if you wont be in absolute top of the line raiding gear, just being in stuff out of Growth is pretty damn sick.

If you don't have an attachment to being a non-Iksar race, and if your toon isn't just a mule/farm toon type of deal, I don't agree that one should go non-Iksar for their first toon. Putting off long term gains for really short term benefits seems unwise to me when we're talking about a 16 year old elf simulator. Not like we're rushing to new content.

But then again, this is from a blue perspective. There's a lot more cheap gear going around, it is easier to camp things without interruption, and you don't have to worry about having a lot of burst mana saved up for the ganker right around the corner. If you're starting on red, the logic here behind erudite seems strong from the outside looking in. But if you're starting on blue, I'd really encourage even new players to not put off the long term benefits of being an Iksar just because of speedbumps like xp penalties, faction problems, and low base int. These things go away in time, but that extra 11 regen never stops being valuable, and it is not replaceable. Especially if they nerf the Lich line as they need to, then that regen is going to mean a hell of a lot more.

[Gaxx]

Personally I play a DE necro (currently lvl 58) just because I think Dark Elves are a cool race. I am starting to wish I had Iksar regen when soloing in places like charasis. But I'm of the opinion that necros are such a powerful class when played well that you'll be fine no matter what race you choose.

[Phifey]

I know 0 about PvE necromancer

:eek:

[rgostic]

Then I realized that you were gearing those magelo toons for Red.

This guy Vexenu is either trolling, or he's never heard of the Stone of Morid (http://wiki.project1999.com/Stone_of_Morid), because he'd have to be framing it up real hard to bring PvP into a comparison of necromancer races and fail to mention it, yet alone equip his iksar template with a sarnak ceremonial dagger.

[Arterian]

DE make the best necro because they are so awesome and look the best in a blighted robe, just say no to wolverine gloves and leather caps tho.

This.

[eqberserk]

My wife and I are planning to play together (pending IP allowance). I want to play an Iksar Necro and she wants to play a Human Druid. Considering the race/faction issues, should I consider going Human Necro, or is it easy enough to get around my concerns? I've never played old school EQ, so never had to worry about watching out for guards, etc.

[Messianic]

I remembered analyzing this sometime back, so it may have been me. Here's the post:

Iksar necros do not level faster than other necros.


Levels 8-19 - an extra 2 hp per tick, sitting = 20 hp extra per minute. Dark Pact = 2 mana for 4 hp every tick, or 0.5 mana for each hp, so 10 extra mana per minute. 10 extra mana per minute is not enough to overcome a 20% exp penalty.

Levels 20-34 - An extra 3 hp per tick, sitting = 30 hp extra per minute. Allure of Death = 4 mana for 8 hp every tick, or 0.5 mana for each hp, so 15 extra mana per minute. 15 extra mana per minute is not enough to overcome a 20% exp penalty.

Levels 34-48 - An extra 3 hp per tick, sitting = 30 hp extra, blah blah - Call of Bones = 8 mana for 16 hp, so 0.5 mana for each hp. 15 extra mana per minute. 15 extra mana per minute is not enough to overcome a 20% exp penalty.

Level 49 - extra 3 hp per tick, 30 hp extra per minute - Lich has a .625 mana-hp ratio, so approximately 19 extra mana per minute.

Level 50 - extra 4 per tick sitting regen. 40 extra hp per minute. 25 extra mana per minute. 25 extra mana per minute is not enough to overcome a 20% exp penalty.


Are you seeing my point?


Let's just jump to level 60:

Arch Lich = 35/53 mana/hp per tick, with 11 extra hp regen while sitting (7 for non-regen races, 18 for iksar). 110 hp per minute, so approximately 70 mana extra per minute, which isn't half bad - but definitely doesn't offset the iksar experience penalty (even ignoring all the lost time from 1-49), even if that same amount of mana was being given throughout your 50s - which it's not, it's a little lower.

Iksar are definitely worth it at level 60. They do not level faster than other necros. You can debate about the severity of the exp penalty, but it's clearly enough to make iksar level slower, all other things constant...

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=398181&highlight=iksar+regen#post398181

[Vexenu]

This guy Vexenu is either trolling, or he's never heard of the Stone of Morid (http://wiki.project1999.com/Stone_of_Morid), because he'd have to be framing it up real hard to bring PvP into a comparison of necromancer races and fail to mention it, yet alone equip his iksar template with a sarnak ceremonial dagger.

The purpose was to compare the INT/mana of Erudites vs. Iksars in identical PvP gear. The Stone of Morid is a great item but it doesn't have any impact on INT/mana, so I didn't include it. So yes, an Iksar can have an additional +30 Fire/Cold resist in exchange for having 600 less mana. That's a pretty bad tradeoff, in my opinion, but I suppose worth considering in an overall analysis of Erudite vs. Iksar for PvP purposes. Thanks for pointing that out.

[loramin]

My wife and I are planning to play together (pending IP allowance). I want to play an Iksar Necro and she wants to play a Human Druid. Considering the race/faction issues, should I consider going Human Necro, or is it easy enough to get around my concerns? I've never played old school EQ, so never had to worry about watching out for guards, etc.

There are already threads covering the impact Necromancer race has on faction, but the quick summary of them is that any non-Iksar race will have a much easier time fixing faction (if it even needs fixing; some places are ok with good race necros already). However, Iksar faction can still be fixed, it just takes longer (and there are lots of tricks to avoid needing to fix it, like using trick angles to bank with hostile bankers).

Because the Iksar regen is so powerful, most would argue that the trouble of having to do those tricks/spend more time fixing faction (and more time leveling for that matter) is worthwhile in the long run: you can spend time to level and faction, but you can't spend time to give a Human regen. My point in this thread was to identify cases where other races might be better (eg. PvP or creating an alt to farm), but for your primary character everyone agrees the min/max best choice is Iksar.

Also thanks to everyone posting in this thread (especially Vexenu for his link to his great post and Uteunayr for his treatise), it's been very educational.

[Poosammich]

Working off of old memory here, but here goes....

First I was an Erudite Necro on live up through PoP.... I rolled Erud strictly for the shoulders (http://wiki.project1999.com/Mantle_of_Souls) which I did eventually get. That said on p99 I'm just a lowly Iksar lvl 20 necro.... However I can say at least thus far, the AC, AND the Regen have saved my ass more than once. I'll leave final judgement for my camp in EC that will be here soon(around 26). Those druids at that tower, I could barely keep the camp clear before, but I think I'll do much better this time around. I rarely have to direct tap, and almost never cast Leech. Whereas in my 20's on my Erud I had leech up constantly, and still had to direct tap. At lvl 20 while sitting I lose 0 HP to lich.

I could be playing that much better, or it could be the racial regen/AC....

PS

Play what you want, and Erud Necros do get some sexy shoulders if you'll do the work.

PPS

Yes I know this is a bland comment, but given I was an Erud Necro on live I figured I would chime in.

[Nimmanu]

I guess my question for you would be, do you intend to be leveling forever? Or do you intend to max out and farm plat, go raiding, etc. etc.?

The exp penalty only factors in until you max out. Necros, if played well, can max out fairly quickly. Then what?


((Sorry, I see that you covered this, and your char isn't intended to ever max out. Proceed to ignore post. :p ))

[Nimmanu]

If you're not min-maxing, you might as well not even play this game. Period.

Utter twaddle. Whatever floats YOUR boat, go for it.

I absolutely love the game, and I'm the last person anyone would call a min-maxxer.

I raided back in the day, hardcore. Fear became routine for us. I wasn't a min-maxxer back then, either. Now, I was in "min-maxxed" gear, but I wasn't the one who did the work of figuring those numbers out.

That's what men are for. :D

[Victorio]

I remembered analyzing this sometime back, so it may have been me. Here's the post:



http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=398181&highlight=iksar+regen#post398181

There's a lot wrong with your analysis. You ignore the post-50 levels, use some incorrect numbers, and don't do a true percentage comparison.

For example, yes, at level 11 you're only getting an extra 10 mana per minute. But you can only meditate back 50 mana per minute, so that 10 per minute is a 20% increase and does make up for the penalty. At 34, when using Call of bones (which takes 11 hp, not 16), your increase will only be around 15%, not enough to make up for the 20% penalty, but mitigating most of it. At 51, using lich (which takes 22 hp so your numbers are also wrong for), your increase is around 34%, more than enough to make up for the penalty. By 56, you have an increase of over 45%.

These values also all assume that you're constantly sitting. Factoring in some time spent standing and the values, especially post 50, shift dramatically further in iksar's favor.

Yes, pre-50, the extra mana regeneration doesn't generally overcome the experience penalty, but it makes up for a significant part of it. Post 50, it much more than makes up for it. By 60, with the relative amount of time that those levels take, it should have made up for it, and you'll be left with a much nicer character.

[toolshed]

Check out the travel guide in my sig for places you can bank/vendor as an iksar necro. There are tons of places and once you know where the main ones are (MT, HHK, FP, OT, druid rings) you can bank/vendor really easily nearly anywhere

[Uteunayr]

Faction on an Iksar Necro isn't bad at all to be honest, and I found it far more preferable to my Dark Elf. If you're a human, an erudite, or a gnome, you don't have an evil race modifier, but you have a number of tools at your disposal as a necromancer to negate this:

1- First, you have Lich form, which lets you go to most evil cities just fine (Neriak is basically the evil capital of the game, and you're free to go anywhere within with Skeleton form).

2- Since you're playing with a druid, they can wolf form you.

3- You also have FD, and Circlet of Shadows, allowing you to travel just about anywhere, through any city without too much worry.

4- Worried about finding vendors? If you're playing with a druid, they can port you to Steamfont, WC, any of the druid rings with a spell vendor, and you can sell there.

5- You can also FD next to any banker, and use that banker.

6- As an Iksar, you actually get to go into Cabilis without any faction work, which is a bitch and a half to get. That can be really helpful. While other necromancers have to run around to different cities to find a few pet spells, or worry about OT faction, every spell you need that isn't research is sold in Cabilis last I checked. But again, you could also just use Skeleton form. (Noticing a pattern? :D)

For actual factioning up in Antonica, to have Freeport as a home away from home (for EC):

1- Travel around Freeport a lot. Wait for someone to kill Lucan. Tag him. After 3 kills, you're max warmly in North Freeport. Doesn't take long at all. People kill Lucan pretty much every time he respawns.

2- Get a druid friend (such as the questioner's SO) to wolf form you and do Rohand's Brandy (http://wiki.project1999.com/Rohand%27s_Brandy). A half hour, and you'll be max warmly with all legal Qeynos and Freeport merchants.

And lastly for Odus, if you want faction with Paineel, go kill Erudite guards. They are around level 20-30, and it doesn't take many at all to get to apprehensive with Paineel. Or just use skeleton form.

I have never really had to spend a lot of time doing faction work, and I am rarely inconvenienced by my lack of faction.

By 60, with the relative amount of time that those levels take, it should have made up for it, and you'll be left with a much nicer character.

This is a pretty important thing: 50-60 is a real grind. It isn't very forgiving. Also, and more importantly: Fuck level 54. That level can go die in a fire.

[Swish]

Iksars generally... don't give a shit about faction, because faction doesn't give a shit about you :)

Frees you up to kill just about anything outside of Cabilis, it's great <3

[Uteunayr]

Iksars generally... don't give a shit about faction, because faction doesn't give a shit about you :)

Frees you up to kill just about anything outside of Cabilis, it's great <3

So damn true. That's what I see as being the best part about being a necromancer. You get to walk around the game world while leveling up, and pretty much everything is just another potential source of experience. It is quite freeing.

[eqberserk]

The lower levels are what I'm more concerned about for faction. Like last night, I spent 2 hours (unsuccessfully) trying to get an invis to get on the boat in FV because I'm trying to get to Qeynos so I can xp with her. I definitely want to go Iksar, but it's been nothing but a pain in the arse thus far.

[Uteunayr]

The early levels are definitely a complete bitch. No two ways about that. You don't have your spells, you don't have your clickies... All around a very rough time.

PM me when you'll be on today, and I'll help get you moved over to Qeynos. Also, fun fact, the Qeynos Evil guild is friendly to Iksar Necromancers, and they have a bank there! So once you get to Qeynos, you basically have another home with no faction work.

[Erica]

I grouped with a level 59 Dark Elf necro last night. His hp went down fairly fast without regrowth, which is about what being an Iksar would add. I think he still lost a couple hp per tick with it on. I forgot to ask him if he regrets being a Dark Elf or not.

I personally would rather make a Gnome or Dark Elf necro, but there is no denying that adding hp regen to a class who constantly converts hp to mana is the best thing you can obtain. I would probably end up making a lizard :(

[HippoNipple]

If you are talking about PvP you should stick with Iksar. Long drawn out fights for a necro depend on that regen. A necro won't win a short fight anyways. It is all about HP/Mana regen. Tons of dots, dispels, cure disease, shadow steps. You will defeat your opponent over a long period of time and your HP regen will give you an extra cast.

If you are on a PvP server you know how important fungi tunics are. Well the Regen rate increase for fungi is 15 while the iksar regen while standing gives you an extra 8. Having a free regen that is over half as effective as a fungi during a long fight helps a lot.

[Safon]

The early levels are definitely a complete bitch. No two ways about that. You don't have your spells, you don't have your clickies... All around a very rough time.

PM me when you'll be on today, and I'll help get you moved over to Qeynos. Also, fun fact, the Qeynos Evil guild is friendly to Iksar Necromancers, and they have a bank there! So once you get to Qeynos, you basically have another home with no faction work.

That is such bs lol, not fair

[eqberserk]

The early levels are definitely a complete bitch. No two ways about that. You don't have your spells, you don't have your clickies... All around a very rough time.

PM me when you'll be on today, and I'll help get you moved over to Qeynos. Also, fun fact, the Qeynos Evil guild is friendly to Iksar Necromancers, and they have a bank there! So once you get to Qeynos, you basically have another home with no faction work.
I wanted to thank you again for your help last night. It is very much appreciated.

[Uteunayr]

Not a problem. Also, looks like this thread was moved to the caster forum. Suppose it is more appropriate than Server Chat.

[ctre]

3 Paths that have been talked around but not followed there correct function Properly.

1: The I want to level the fastest path to 60
2: The I want to be the best necro class at 60
3: The PVP necro

1:
I favor the Gnome for this.
Good Side:
- Wall snooper
- Endless supply of mana with Tinkered eyeballs.
- xp penalty is low

Bad Side:
- Short. Some Steps are difficult to move around
- (Higher levels), Wants a regen from a friendly drood or shaman to help.
- AC is not as high

2:
Iksar (simple.. you have the gear, and the stats.. hard to beat )

3:
Eurodite... (( I admit .. never knew/thought about that required essential. +500 more mana


Everybody has rambled on about the above. great stuff.. (( just parting them appropriately)).

[DrKvothe]

I've been playing on Red lately, and it's reinforced my perspective on this issue. Exp bonus/penalty is largely irrelevant to your leveling rate.

Grouped: If you're grouped, your exp modifier basically doesn't matter. Collectively, a party full of bad exp modifiers is pretty noticeable, but YOUR choice of iksar vs whatever won't be noticeable. 5 rangers + iksar necro is gonna be essentially the same as 5 rangers + gnome necro.

Solo: If you only attempt very safe content where number of kills is limited by respawn timer only (there's plenty of afk camps like this), yes, your exp bonus will matter. If you're doing something more daring, the time you'll save recovering from a near wipe or that extra kill you're able to get every so often make a difference to largely offset the exp bonus. Either way, if you focus, play well, and work hard at it, you'll level fast. The biggest hindrances to leveling are ADHD, alting, sitting in EC tunnel.

Now let's say that despite all of those things that somewhat offset the 20% exp penalty, it takes a non-iksar 200 hours to get to 60 and an iksar 210 hours to get to 60 (just making up numbers). I would prefer to spend 210 hours on a noticeably stronger character than 200 hours with a noticeably inferior one.

[loramin]

the time you'll save recovering from a near wipe or that extra kill you're able to get every so often make a difference to largely offset the exp bonus

This "fact" is commonly repeated, but if you crunch the numbers (as Vexenu did in the thread he linked earlier) it turns out that:

So ultimately the math tells us that the Iksar is indeed the more efficient Necro race for any time over 25ish minutes. However, despite this advantage they will level slower than the Erudite, because their efficiency increases are not sufficient to offset the XP penalty. It roughly works out to a 5% efficiency advantage for Iksars, at the cost of a 20% XP penalty (Erudite needs an extra 3 min of med time per level to offset Iksar regen advantage; 3/60 = 5%).

So if you agree with Vexenu's math that means that instead of:
Now let's say ... it takes a non-iksar 200 hours to get to 60 and an iksar 210 hours to get to 60 (just making up numbers). I would prefer to spend 210 hours on a noticeably stronger character than 200 hours with a noticeably inferior one.

The actual numbers (assuming 200 hours = level 60) would be more like non-Iksar: 200 hours vs. 230 hours.

I still agree with your basic logic for someone's main (or even their primary alt), but if we're talking about an alt that a person spends an hour on a week, then we're talking four years before hitting 60 as a non-Iksar vs. 4.6-ish years for the Iksar (with the non-Iksar being ahead in levels for the entire four years that player played them).

So if I just want to play a necromancer occasionally, and thus I'm not worried about having the best Necromancer possible at level 60, then a non-Iksar looks very appealing, because my alt who's (basically) never going to make it to 60 is going to get new fun spells faster with a non-Iksar.

[DrKvothe]

This is one of those commonly repeated "facts" that's not actually true. Vexenu broke it down in that thread he linked earlier in this thread:

IMO, his post entirely supports my claim. His math shows that just from extra kills, iksar regen should offset 1/4th of the exp penalty. That's a pretty big chunk. But more importantly, you've completely ignored the first part of my statement: recovering from a near wipe. If you're solo charming in tough spots, this will happen. I see necros soloing in HS, Lguk, KC, etc.

Imagine: you're FD, very low hp, and your former pet (undead, obviously, so see invis) is standing right next to you. You're just gonna have to lie there for a while, getting no exp and bored out of your mind. With iksar regen, that wait isn't as bad. A couple minutes here and there adds up.

[Daldaen]

Was in a group with two 60 necros the other day on my druid. When they were standing tapping people, after Id hit them with group regen and Skin like nature... The iksar wasn't losing health from Demi Lich. The gnome still was.

Iksar regen is glorious.

[Faywind]

I don't think there is any reason NOT to roll an Iksar Necro unless solely for looks regardless of the fact that it will never make it to 60 or is only an alt.

This thread has proved this point many times over.

[DrKvothe]

I still agree with your basic logic for someone's main (or even their primary alt), but if we're talking about an alt that a person spends an hour on a week, then we're talking four years before hitting 60 as a non-Iksar vs. 4.6-ish years for the Iksar (with the non-Iksar being ahead in levels for the entire four years that player played them).

So if I just want to play a necromancer occasionally, and thus I'm not worried about having the best Necromancer possible at level 60, then a non-Iksar looks very appealing, because my alt who's (basically) never going to make it to 60 is going to get new fun spells faster with a non-Iksar.

In this hypothetical I think I would still pick iksar. That hour you get to play the char each week will be 5% more fun (via Vexenu's math), and if I'm not trying to rush to 60 I'd rather spend my time in FoB, Kurn's, LoIO, and FM. Yes, a gnome could level in those places, but if you've got an hour to play, spending that hour on travel would just suck.

[Victorio]

This "fact" is commonly repeated, but if you crunch the numbers (as Vexenu did in the thread he linked earlier) it turns out that:



So if you agree with Vexenu's math that means that instead of:


Here's a link to the Vexenu's post since no one else linked it:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=983252&postcount=8

The problem is that Vexenu makes some really terrible assumptions.

Most glaringly, he magically gives his erudite necromancer a 700 mana infusion every hour on the hour. In reality he needs to make up the 1800 mana per hour, not 1100.

Then he calculates "additional liched medding time needed" rather than comparing mana/hour to mana/hour. His comparison is wrong for multiple reasons:
1. Comparing this way skews ratios (much in the way that 1/0.95 != 1.05/1.00)
2. it neglects that this additional liched medding time is going to cost even more hp
3. It gives the illusion of minutes per hour yielding some true percentage, when in fact one is not even close to always medding (casting, pulling, etc.)

Let's assume for his lvl 54 necs that he's medding 80% of the time and standing/casting 20% of the time, with lich on constantly.

600 ticks in an hour: 480 sitting ticks, 120 standing ticks
Normal Mana Regen: 20 mana / tick when sitting, 1 mana / tick standing.
Lich Mana Regen: 20 mana / tick from lich
HP Regen: +5 sit, +2 stand for Erudite, +12 sit, +6 stand for Iksar
Lich HP Loss: 21 per tick

Mana Regen: 19320 mana
HP Loss: Erudite - 9960 ; Iksar - 6120
Mana Cost to Regain HP: Erudite - 4980 ; Iksar - 3060
Net Mana Regen: Erudite - 14340 ; Iksar - 16260

At this point, we have 16260/14340 = 1.134. So you have 13.4% more non-BoD mana for the iksar - not enough to make up for all the xp penalty, but much better than what was cited before.

If we repeat the same analysis for lvl 56 regen, all else equal except for:
HP Regen: +6 sit, +3 stand for Erudite, +16 sit, +10 stand for Iksar

We end up with:
Net Mana Regen: Erudite - 14640 ; Iksar - 17460

At this point, we have 14640/17460 = 1.193. So you have 19.3% more non-BoD mana for the iksar - enough to make up for the penalty.

Once you get to 60, there's another bump in regen.

Note: In reality, you are not really getting 2 hp per mana unless you never lifetap. It will normally cost you more mana to regain that hp, but this analysis is also discounting the 2 damage / mana that you're doing using those BoDs (as compared to more efficient DOTs).

That being said, a lot of time in this game is spent standing and running places, moving around camps, etc. Being able to run with lich on (and then with it off, to regen) is very useful indeed. And being able to regen quickly to full HP without needing a mob to tap around is also useful.

EDIT: if you consider a more realistic HP per mana value of 1.75, from a mix of lifetaps and BoD, the values go to 16.1% and 23.1%, respectively. And, as stated before, adding in more realistic scenarios with wipes, having to recover or go AFK while FD, more standing time spent pulling, etc., then iksar clearly evens out and pulls ahead.

[Uteunayr]

Again, I caution everyone away from using simulations as a means of determining what is ideal. In my brief post, look at all the different variables I had to take account of to make a simple 1 minute situation with a VP Stick and Manna Robe. There are so many things to take into account, no basic mathematical breakdown on this forum is going to capture it. Sorry. Unless you can start to gain percentage chance of a roamer hitting you, percentage chance of player failure, percentage chance of your house catching fire so you step away while Liched, etc. you're not going to get an accurate picture of Non-Iksar vs. Iksar. There are too many variables to consider, you're practically going to need to create Hari Seldon's psychohistory.

A simulation is *only* as good as the assumptions it is founded on, and there are a lot of damn assumptions that are going into the math used by people when arguing necromancer, even my own. Assumptions on gearing makes a major difference, and the Erumancer makes many of those assumptions. These things matter a good deal, because sometimes even though an item has more HP, there are not good alternates to shaft your Int. I disagree with a large number of the gear decisions madew by Erumancer, and I think they show a lack of balance. Going with 15 HP on pants vs 3(6) Mana + 5 Mana + 10 HP is a dumb decision until you're capped on Int. A 55 HP ring vs 25 HP + 35 Mana + 4(6) Mana, going with the former is a dumb decision.

So I took my personal build (http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Sesserdrix), and removed the Manna Robe and VP Stick to get rid of droppables. I kept items that I see as being a part of basic raiding once would do (Sky shoulders, sky wrists, Yael belt, Vox face, Blighted gear) to give a decent overview of what a more "capped" toon would be. Here is FakeNecro (http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:FakeNecro) with his 1418 HP, 3055 Mana and Regeneration. He sits at 205 Intelligence and 99 Stamina. With the same gear, lets see FakeErudNecro (http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:FakeEruditeNecro) and his 241 Intelligence. He has 1399 HP, and 3327 Mana but no Regeneration. But of course, one might say "But you're making gearing decisions you wouldn't make as an Erudite! You're stacking too much Int, you need to take more HP biased item alternatives!!!! Stop bullshitting us Sesser!" I hear you cry. The problem is there are not always excellent HP alternatives that make up for the stat loss. For example, there's more HP on a Rokyl Crystal, so why did I choose a Hand for this toon, even when Iksar?

Hand of the Reaper vs Rokyl Crystal: Hand of the Reaper = 15(6)+20 = 90 + 20 = 110 Total stat and +10 MR. Rokyl Crystal = 50 HP = 50 Mana = 100 Total stat. I'd still want to use a Hand until I was clipping 255 Int.

One may think, "Sure, but that's a rare situation! Hand of the Reaper has so much int, you sort of need to go with it. What about those other things?"

Band of Eternal Flame over a HP Ring!: 4(6) + 25 + 35 = 84 total stat. HP Ring = 55 = 55 total stat. I'd still want a Band of Eternal Flame.

Mantle of Souls? Why no Sky shoulders all of a sudden?!: 10 (6) = 60 + 75 = 135 vs 5(6)=30 + 30 = 60 + 65 = 125.

Why Tobrin's Eyepatch??!!: 15(6)= 90 vs 2(6)=12 + 30 + 30 = 72. I'd want the Eyepatch anyway.

GEBs over ShadowBound when you have so much int?: 9(6)=54 vs 15 + 15 = 30.

In the end, there is a lack of variety of valuable item upgrades to maximize HP without shafting mana disproportionately, even when taking into consideration the 6 int per of being over 200. So by taking many HP items, you lose more Mana than it is worth simply because there are no other items that become competitive.

What do I mean by this? Perhaps the best example of a pair of items that are evenly matched but change value based on your relative position to the int cap is the Blighted Skullcap and the Platinum Tiara.

Blighted Skullcap is 8 Int, 10 HP, 20 Mana, 10 SVMagic. The SV Magic is just a cherry topper for now, not a deciding factor. 8 Int below 200 is 8(12)=96, with 10 HP and 30 Mana so 126 total stat. A Platinum Tiara, however, is just 35 HP and 50 Mana, so a mere 85 stat. Blighted Skullcap wins! Except when you go over 200 int. 8(6)=48 + 10 + 20 = 78. Now suddenly, Platinum Tiara is looking pretty good! You get more out of it, and you get to displace Mana into HP! Hell yeah! Now what if you were at 199 Int before a cap? That means 1 of the 8 int would be 12, and the other 7 would be 6. So it would be 48 + 6 = 54 + 10 + 20 = 84. Platinum Tiara still pulling ahead by a squeeker! So what we can now say is when you're at 198 Int or lower without a hat on, the Blighted Skullcap is superior. When you're at 199 or greater intelligence, the Platinum Tiara is better.

That is one slot where you have plenty of variety where you have different items with similar values that change based upon your position in the intelligence cap. Most slots lack this variety. So even if you wanted to, you couldn't shaft some intelligence from the Erudite in the example without losing overall stats.

I hope the grand point is getting across: When we break things down into this type of math, we're making vast numbers of assumptions. These assumptions change the output of the simulation, and make it appear differently. This obscures the truth, and makes it hard to get a feel for what is going on. Even what I write in this thread is subject to a number of assumptions to limit the external validity. I make a number of assumptions, many of which may not even be apparent to me, when I break down the gear this way. The one I can think of that is most apparent is that 1 Mana is equal to 1 Health. But this changes from situation to situation, as I discussed in my previous thread.

Try it. Play two necromancers. Ask your friends if they have a necromancer toon, and play theirs for a bit. Spend a day rolling around as a Non-Iksar, and then a day rolling around as an Iksar. Go solo in HS for a bit. Experience the difference. There is only one way to truly account for the many variables outside of our assumptions, and that is to get into the world where those variables are unavoidable.

How about accounting for the value of:

Imagine: you're FD, very low hp, and your former pet (undead, obviously, so see invis) is standing right next to you. You're just gonna have to lie there for a while, getting no exp and bored out of your mind. With iksar regen, that wait isn't as bad. A couple minutes here and there adds up.

Lets take these two imaginary necromancers I created. Both FD at 1hp and their charm pet is right on top of them. They want to regenerate to full so they have the HP to get up, ST, and recharm without getting fucked in the face. FakeNecro (Iksar) gets 14 HP a tick while feigned, while FakeErudNecro gets 5. FakeNecro has 1418 HP, meaning he needs 101.29 ticks (round up to 102 since you can't partial tick) to get to full. 102 x 6 seconds = 612 seconds, divided by 60 seconds in a minute = 10.2 Minutes. Now FakeErudNecro is at 1399 and gets back 5HP a tick. Or 279.8 (round up to 280 since you can't partial tick) total ticks to get to full. 280 x 6 seconds = 1680 divided by 60 seconds in a minute = 28 minutes. So the Iksar will be getting up nearly 18 minutes faster.

But I hear you say "But surely that never happens!"... but it does. How can we predict how often it happens? Do we make the faulty assumption that nothing bad will ever happen? Bad things do happen. Doesn't matter how good you are. You will fuck up. How do you weigh the relative value of getting back on your feet versus mana efficiency in a pure sitting situation? These are assumptions, and the more limited they are in simulations, the more external validity issues you have... The more the simulation doesn't represent the reality of the experience.

Just try it. Seriously. That's the one way to get a good feeling of all the different variables that need to be captured. I don't think I have ever met someone who has done both as I have, and came out of it thinking regeneration wasn't a massive boon. Just keep in mind: Experience penalties are temporary. Faction problems are a part of the necromancer experience, and they are temporary. Regeneration is forever.

[Vexenu]

Victorio: your math is a little difficult to follow, but from what I can tell you seem to be right. Thanks for pointing out my error there.

Uteunayr: those gear profiles are pretty high end, which obviously starts to even out the mana comparison. I've always said flat out that Iksar is the clear choice for anyone whose character goals include hitting 60 and acquiring raid gear, because the INT advantage starts to become irrelevant quickly at that point.

Honestly, my main contention this entire time has really just been that Erudite Necros have a shit ton more mana than Iksars except at the very high end game, and that this fact makes Erudites a preferable racial choice for certain niche applications (i.e. you want to lock a Necro at level 51 to PvP with on Red, or you're a new player to P1999 and just want to level a Necro quickly to farm some plat with, knowing you will never level the Necro much past 50 or acquire a ton of gear on him). The nice thing about an Erudite Necro is that you need hardly any INT/mana gear to have a decent sized mana pool, which makes them great for starting out from scratch and for PvPing in full resist gear. But certainly, beyond those limited, niche applications I would recommend Iksar as the obvious choice (I have an Iksar Necro myself on Blue and never considered any other race).

[Uteunayr]

Yup, understandable. There are a few points I'll make, but I mostly agree:

If it is your first toon and you plan to only get him to 50... I still wouldn't go Erudite. Plans change, and you may find you love necromancer. And then you'll be stuck 50 levels deep into an Erudite, and wish you had an Iksar. Minimize the total potential loss. In my time on Blue, I talk to a lot of necromancers of a lot of different levels, and more than a few have mentioned that they started their necromancer as a farm mule, and found they really loved it and wanted it to go all the way to 60.

To me, mana doesn't do all that much for the leveling experience to be honest. Sure, you get a bigger mana pool so you can cast a couple more spells in case of chain resists, but I'd much rather take health so I don't necessarily get curbstomped the second a fear breaks early and I can't reapply. It's honestly just preference at this point, but when one has Lich involved, health becomes mana, but health also prevents you from getting your face smashed in. It's why the #1 and #2 items I hand out to new players when I meet them are Adamantite Rings and Platinum Fire Wedding Rings. They are items with the best bang for the buck in terms of leveling assistance.

But of course, if you *know*, and I mean you *know* the character will not go past 50, then yes, for sure, go Erudite for the lower XP penalty and the Mana Pool (since I assume you'll twink heavy HP). For example, if you're making a necromancer to park somewhere like Frenzy, and you have experience as a necromancer sufficient to know you do not now nor ever want to play and run your own necro.

For PvP? Sure. I am not qualified in the least to say anything about PvP necromancer ever. I despise all forms of PvP personally, and stay away from it in as many forms as I can possibly manage. Just my preference. The argument for PvP Erudite seems strong from a blue side perspective. Gnome would probably be a strong 2nd... For only 9 less int, and 5 less MR, you get access to wall hacks.

The thing I want to stop is what happened to me: Come to the server, check out the wiki/forums, read that race by and large doesn't matter, make the blind decision to go Dark Elf (I still cringe that of all the non-Iksar races, I went Dark Elf... >.> ), and not until much later do they realize Iksar is actually really fucking great, and then need to reroll a necromancer, or sit pissed off with their character. The worst part is, I know there are others who this has happened to, and I wish I could do more to make sure people don't make the same mistake. That's ultimately why I am rather passionate on this subject: it's important to me to do all I can to prevent that from happening to others. :)

[Zehrikrom]

Like scales? Like regen? Don't mind 30% XP penalty? Iksar.
Like foreheads? Like the least populated starting zone? Don't mind being blind? Erudite.
Like being tiny? Like tinkering? Gnome.
Like being evil? Don't mind half the npcs hating your guts? Dark Elf.
Like being boring? Human.