Your options are...

[Swish]

The rotation isn't dead yet. If it ever was there's a few alternatives...

1. Take it like a chump and accept less.
2. Consider red (always a good option)
3. Compete, or merge guilds til you just have 3 huge zerg guilds in a highly toxic/competitive raid scene.
4. Play something else or somewhere else.

2 and/or 4 would be my picks.

Feel kinda bad for newer players wanting to get into the raid scene if the rotation collapses. The same nerds farming the same pixels for 4+ years to epic up their 7th character or to sell on for huge/unrealistic amounts of plat.

Interested to see how it plays out. Dare I say (of all people) that now is a good time to crash North Ro with the raft to Velious?

[maskedmelon]

These red threads are becoming like rabbits.

[Daldaen]

Do you even know the primary issue people have with the rotation now?

[Swish]

Do you even know the primary issue people have with the rotation now?

You've probably got 2 answers, so I'll definitely be wrong whichever one I choose to pick.

However there's the argument that Class R guilds are sitting too pretty in their sandbox and the intention was always to see some graduate to Class C, which hasn't happened...people are content to wait in line, and there's only going to be more and more guilds joining when they feel they can down dwagonz making the rotation gradually shittier for all concerned.

If raiding for "casuals" becomes untenable I think it would be a sad evolution for P99. Velious would cure this quite possibly, but we're not there yet.

What, pray tell noble Daldaen are your thoughts on the "primary issue" people have?

Got GM powers on beta yet?

[Bristlebard]

Who stuck a stick up your ass, Swish? You're talking to Daldaen like he fucked your sister then ran off when she got pregnant.

I think you need to get over the fact that most people don't share your opinions about or interests in red and that your list of "options" isn't going to trick anyone into believing red or gtfo are the only answers to an imperfect situation on blue.

[feanan]

Red sucks. People play here for classic. There is nothing classic about red.

[Swish]

This isn't a red recruitment thread (unless you want to make it into one?), this is a realistic set of options if you don't want to app for TMO/IB/etc for your pixels if the rotation collapses. Just because "red" is in the OP doesn't mean I'm going full speed trying to get people to join - susvain made a thread on that and its pointless having a dozen threads on page 1 :p

As for Daldaen, he does a lot of beta which is more than I can say for most people but I think his opinions/approach on a lot of things are the polar opposite to mine.

He snipes at me as well (see the 3rd post)... call it ForumQuest pvp ;)

[Bristlebard]

Please.

Every word in the OP oozes your biased opinion against blue. The majority of players on the server don't even raid, let alone raid for their primary enjoyment of the game (both of those things are classic, by the way)... but everything you have to say here is based on the (faulty) assumption that since the raid scene on blue is far from ideal, then red or gtfo are the only good choices available to people.

[Swish]

Shock/horror, I still play on blue... call me a purple player ;)

A healthy amount of people who return to classic EverQuest will want to see the Planes at least and do their epic quest for their class. If they happen to pick the wrong class they'll be forever hoping they can save enough plat to buy a MQ off a Class C guild if the rotation collapses.

I don't think it's a good advert for casual players on P99, seems like it could end up being all about catering for the competitive end game players once you get to raiding levels.

Personally I've got no problems raiding competitively, but as a Euro zone player I've got 2 realistic guild choices that don't typically enjoy staying up til 4am socking mobs...and say what you like, this server caters for American players in terms of raiding repops. We really don't get much for Euro primetime.

Similar problem with red if I'm honest, there's not enough of a Euro player base there for a guild dedicated to raiding before 2am local time. Solution? Join Holo and raid at 2am or when mobs repop, or don't raid the majority of set events.

[Daldaen]

As mentioned many times in the past - If the goal of Class R was to promote joining Class C... It failed miserably.

Of the Class R guilds taken is the one that has the strongest case for moving. But the number of people willing to track/Poopsock is a very small fraction of the guild, there are certain Neckbeard hours (see normal people sleeptime) where we have no viable force at all, and we don't have the Trakanon Teeth / VP keys to warrant the switch. Nor do we have the 4 Mages and 2 groups willing to poopsock an entire Trak window, which is required to compete on FFA Trak.

If they want people to move up. Remove 16 hour variance. Then when we compete we have a set time. Sure it will be more guilds competing on the CotH or footrace start, but we atleast know we will win or lose within 30min after that we go on with our lives.

Or remove Respawns and just assume it's a Euro server with horrible stability that continually goes down - IE full repops replace typical respawns.

The problem that caused Taken/Divinity to bring up these suggestions a year ago was simple. Look at this rotation spreadsheet:

http://i.imgur.com/RkmTuf2.jpg

On Trakanon, notice how Omni/Indignation are the only ones sharing a slot.

But if you look at Omni's latest guild post (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1728011&postcount=107) they helped Europa on their Trakanon and split the loot. No problem in my eyes, until you find out that ONLY Europa drops to the bottom of the rotation. Omni's slot stays firmly where it is.

This allows guilds to game the system. Small guilds which field 20-man forces are able to get on rotations for mobs. Fine. They should be able to. But you should be able to kill that mob at any time it spawns during the window. If not you should find a partner guild and agree to ally on those mobs that you won't have the force to kill within 3-6 hours of their spawn. In doing so you should SHARE a rotation slot.

What essentially happens is 2-3 guilds may decide to ally with each other and whenever it spawns at a pseudo unfavorable time, so long as the guilds have 2 spaces between them in the rotation (due to the Class R 2 spawn lockout), they can continually band together, split loot and get double the kills. This is pretty clearly dumb. This was attempted to be mitigated by adding a window of time when you had to kill mobs... I don't think that has ever been enforced or anything at all.

If a mob spawns at any time of the day. And you want a rotation spot. You should have the force to kill that mob within several hours of its spawning by yourself. If you cannot, recruit more or find another guild similar to yours that you will share a rotation slot on.

The Gorenaire gateway thing is/was retarded and clearly was a meant to stick it to someone. Allowing people to occupy two separate rotation slot, ally and kill those mobs and the guild who wasn't the top slot guild allowed to keep its position in the rotation is maximum retarded though.

Also guilds who think that when they miss their kill, either letting another Class R guild kill it after 3 hours or Class C after 6 hours... That they shouldn't move in the rotation because they didn't kill. That's retarded as well. You failed, drop to the bottom and try again later. If you continually fail, again, recruit more or find another guild to pair up with and share a slot.

GM powers are incoming by Saturday they said. Very excited! So much betaing to do.

[Swish]

What's the alternative here? Cap the amount of guilds on the rotation (therefore: causing guilds to merge where they wouldn't otherwise want to) to ensure everyone gets more pixels more often? Or ask Rogean if he'd mind ever so much causing an earthquake 1-2 times a week to keep the masses happy?

If guild X doesn't want to hold the rotation together, why not jump into Class C and be done with it...and leave it to the guilds left behind to manage. It shouldn't need much managing, but I do agree that if Guild X downs a dragon with Guild Y's help that Guild Y should lose their spot in the interests of keeping the wait time down for those in that boat. Omni pals likely won't agree.

I'm fairly certain my blue SK won't see their epic til Velious (if at all) on P99 unless I buy a MQ, and at what price? That makes me sad...but as Nilbog says, he's not here to make people happy.

Raid scene pretty fucked though if the rotation ever collapsed. I'd consider full time red if I was stuck with raiding hate/fear only rather than apping to TMO and having to poopsock.

[Burrito]

Instanced raid mobs with some variation of lockouts. Either IP, account, or character or a mixture.

But since there is a 0% chance of it happening, make instanced raid attempts scheduled, and other players can join the attempts by taking control of various NPCs in the zone.

Its like that one time you could randomly roll willowisps on that one server with the player monsters

[Daldaen]

1. Remove Variance, or reduce to 30min (+/-15)
2. More earthquakes. 2-4 patches a month was typical for Verant, servers went down more than that as well. We are not getting close to 2-4 a month. Would be nice if they were automated or if more people had to power to trigger them.
3. Guilds who cannot cover entire windows themselves, should pair up with a similar guild to bolster their numbers and occupy the same rotation slot. I'm not saying it needs to die at 5AM when it spawns at 4AM... But it should be dead by 7AM (your 3 hour window).
4. Guilds need to accept that if they can't kill it within their 3 hour window and another Class R guild kills it... Or if you let it go 6 hours and let Class C kill it, you guild should drop off the rotation. And should be given the option to get another guild to ally with them and share the slot, or try again at a later date when you have more members or more gear or more levels.

Do #1/2, add a rule that caps the number of people you can have logged in sitting in a zone waiting for a mob, you will likely see more guilds move to Class C. But as it stands no guild would move with 16 hour variance in place. Adding 6 more dragons to track, NOPE nope nope.

[Nirgon]

Remove variance, accept time line

[Burrito]

Maybe with less earthquakes we've balanced out to how many raid spawns there were on live by being in kunark for years.

Classic balance achieved

[Argh]

...

Guild partnering to kill shit doesn't really happen often and the last 8 hour vent summit imposed rules to limit the hours during which a guild can get help from other guilds (12 hours). Every guild has killed everything solo (Thats what the green name denotes.)

The only gaming of the system that has taken place was when Taken, Divinity, and BDA abused a rule to get 2 Trakanons each before removing the rule before every other guild could do the same.

If you miss your kill you move to the bottom of the list, that's already the rules and nobody fights it (except BDA on their last Gore)

Also, is that the screenshot from my forums post? lol

[Daldaen]

Unless you are Wycca, no, it wasn't from you.

Yes I was pointing out BDA on their Gore kill, and allowing them to freeze while they were in Class C, both dumb decisions.

I'm aware of the 12hour window. But that's dumb. If you cannot cover the entire window, recruit more or share a rotation slot with a guild whose attendance will bolster your total to a point where you can kill the mob any time. Otherwise don't sign up for the mob. Variance blows but everyone has to deal with that. Just because you like your small tight knit guild and don't want to recruit more or merge, does not mean you should be able to pair up with another guild, kill the mob together, split the loot and then in a month when that guild moves from slot 3 to 1 in the rotation, pair up again, kill the same mob again, and share the loot again.

Argh, be honest with me.

Is it unreasonable for me to suggest that any time you pair with a guild, both guilds should share the same rotation slot going forward? Or at the very least both guilds should drop to the bottom of the rotation? Cause that's really the only rotation change in suggesting.

[Bodybagger]

Don't come to red for pixels. We will kill you. We are here to PVP. Come here to PVP. The zerg is fine without your blue zergs joining in.


By all means if you want to bring a zerg guild over and are fully prepared for full on zerg 50+ vs 50+ brawls for your pixels, please feel free. But don't come for the pixels. You will be killed, it's a PVP server.

[Tenlaar]

...the last 8 hour vent summit...

http://media.giphy.com/media/g43ZqCrsNRbpu/giphy.gif

[Tyym]

When you all forced us into this rotation last year, we predicted that the Class R guilds who supported this raiding system would become unsettled as their guild numbers and experience became stronger. Now you have several guilds in viable contention to challenge us and IB. Their only excuse for not moving up is the commitment required in the form of tracking/batphone response.

Because of their unwillingness to actually work for their loot, they are now your forcing the smaller guilds into an unequitable restructuring. The same thing we were forced into when the rotation system was shoved down our throats.

How about this. There are only two guilds to compete against in Class C. Loot for all. Stop being the big fish in the little pond and come join us in the big leagues and let the Class R guilds get their kills when they come up on the list. Then you learn what the competitive raiding experience is really like; both the rewarding part and the disappointment. Both positive and negative experiences foster the true competitive raiding experience classic EQ was all about. But if you really don't want to work for it, then just stay Class R and keep things status quo. Don't force the smaller guilds into an unequitable position because you guys are truly just too lazy to move up.

Morphius 60 Enchanter - The Mystical Order
Tempyst 60 Ranger
Liquidreach 60 Cleric
Kimchi 60 Necromancer

[Swish]

"work for it"

That picture of 3 guilds all sitting in Sky waiting for a pop springs to mind.

[veejur]

When you all forced us into this rotation last year, we predicted that the Class R guilds who supported this raiding system would become unsettled as their guild numbers and experience became stronger. Now you have several guilds in viable contention to challenge us and IB. Their only excuse for not moving up is the commitment required in the form of tracking/batphone response.

Because of their unwillingness to actually work for their loot, they are now your forcing the smaller guilds into an unequitable restructuring. The same thing we were forced into when the rotation system was shoved down our throats.

But if you really don't want to work for it, then just stay Class R and keep things status quo. Don't force the smaller guilds into an unequitable position because you guys are truly just too lazy to move up.


^^ This

[JackFlash]

This must be where someone makes a gif of a great depression bread line with all the guys named after blue guilds.

[Daldaen]

I think we've learned what competitive raiding is just fine.

6 FFA targets last week - Sev, Fay, VS, Draco, Maestro, Inny

Taken got VS, Fay and Maestro
IB got Sev and Draco
TMO got Inny

What you fail to understand is our guild isn't made up of exclusively the neckbeards that got those VS, Fay, Maestro kills. Hell I was asleep during all three of them. (Or maybe I was at work for Maestro I forget) There are plenty like myself whom don't want to stare at a wall or are at work and cannot log on or who like sleeping.

For people like myself (a good chunk of our guild) - it is nice there is the opportunity to pseudo plan when we will be able to go for a mob, go for the mob and allow people to log on and make their way there. That's the only way these types of people will see a mob like Venril Sathir. He dies <2min after he spawns during FFA cycles. Whereas in Class R we can allow a solid 30min-1hour to let everyone show up who wishes to participate. Which is the goal of class R, letting everyone experience content

As long as 16-hour variance remains I guarantee no guilds will purposefully move up. You get rid of 16-hour variance and you will see guilds move up eventually.

The issue with it currently is it allows smaller guilds to bypass the typical rotation by pairing up during their "alliance12hourperiod", then pair up again in a month and kill the same mob. When a guild who killed the mob solo at any hour would have to wait another 6 months before they can kill it again.

Small guild A can bring 25 people to Trakanon
Small guild B can bring 15 people to Trakanon

Each guild gets a BP, and some teeth and perhaps spell and a shot at guts.

This pair kills Trakanon twice through a full rotation cycle because Guild B is in slot #3 when Guild A is in slot #1 and it spawns in their window of allying.

BDA brings 40 people to Trakanon

They get 2 BPs all the teeth/spells and a shot at guts.

This guild kills Trakanon once through a full rotation. Because that's how rotations work, you get it and you drop to the bottom until everyone else gets it.

[Argh]

Argh, be honest with me.

Is it unreasonable for me to suggest that any time you pair with a guild, both guilds should share the same rotation slot going forward? Or at the very least both guilds should drop to the bottom of the rotation? Cause that's really the only rotation change in suggesting.

I think, like the dark hours implementation, it will make really close to no impact.

Guilds teaming up to kill shit doesn't really happen outside of really bad hours (8am Traks/Gores). If all guilds participating in a kill will be moved down to the bottom of the order then the end result will be that no guild will help another guild with their shitty spawns and instead will wait out the 3 hour grace period (1 hour in the new proposal) for it to become FFA within class R. Obviously, this will lead to Taken/BDA sniping valuable mobs at the one hour mark. This is all well and fine, however, their argument becomes very hypocritical at this point because they (Taken/Div/BDA) feel that killing a mob at this point (once it has become R FFA) should not move them down to the bottom of the rotation because 'they're picking up everyones slack, and stopping the mobs from going to evil class C guilds, and it ruins their chance for primetime mobs'

Ultimately if you want to impose that everyone be held accountable for their kills, then it should be applied to all kills.

However, I couldn't possibly care less about how all of this shakes out since I am now free from the soul sucking pit of despair that is FAP.

[Daldaen]

I would agree, 1 hour is dumb, should be longer due to the purpose of Class R. I thought 3 was pretty reasonable.

I think that FFA in Class R (3-6hr) kill should drop you as well. You could roll the dice and wait til 6 when truly FFA to avoid it and hope Class C or another Class R doesn't beat you. Or just go for it in that window.

It does make an impact. Removing what I spoke about would shorten the rotations that are unnaturally elongated due to the addition of guilds who, outside of perfect storm conditions, cannot take down mobs solo. These guilds just need to pair up with another guild in a similar situation on the mobs of such difficulty that they cannot bring them down alone. Whether this is done by a tiering system or a mob by mob basis, don't really care. Tiering obviously would directly benefit the larger guilds and mob by mob would benefit the smaller guilds. They can have fun discussing that.

[Tyym]

The difference I am seeing between the Class R guilds and the "evil" Class C guilds is the motivation. While we compete furiously with IB, there is a level of respect outside the raid scene and many of us group together or chat regularly. For us it is not about the loot. Hell a lot of the loot in VP rots or goes to alts. Its about the competition.

For the smaller guilds it is about the loot, or the completion of epics or simply working together to overcome a game obstacle. That's why it is so hard for us to understand where many of you are coming from. Personally I would like more competition up here in Class C with us. There are guilds that are ready. You just need to identify what your motivation is.

Look at IB. They were a shell of a guild for more than a year. When they decided they wanted to regain former glory, they rallied behind Hokushin and allied with Forceful Entry who was already a strong competitor against TMO. Over a short period of time, IB ranks grew with every successful encounter and now they share the top spot on the server only a year later. While I don't prefer using a competitor guild as a shining example, I suggest you guild leaders figure it out what you want and go from there.

Do you simply want loot when its your turn every few weeks out or are you ready to prove yourselves and earn the right to get the big loot the hardway and enjoy every minute of doing it that way.

Morphius 60 Enchanter - The Mystical Order
Tempyst 60 Ranger
Liquidreach 60 Cleric
Kimchi 60 Necromancer

[Mendo]

As mentioned many times in the past - If the goal of Class R was to promote joining Class C... It failed miserably.

Of the Class R guilds taken is the one that has the strongest case for moving. But the number of people willing to track/Poopsock is a very small fraction of the guild, there are certain Neckbeard hours (see normal people sleeptime) where we have no viable force at all, and we don't have the Trakanon Teeth / VP keys to warrant the switch. Nor do we have the 4 Mages and 2 groups willing to poopsock an entire Trak window, which is required to compete on FFA Trak.


You don't want to move to class "C" because you don't want to poop sock and kill a dragon right as it spawns.


This allows guilds to game the system. Small guilds which field 20-man forces are able to get on rotations for mobs. Fine. They should be able to. But you should be able to kill that mob at any time it spawns during the window.


Yet you want all of class "R" to poop sock and kill a dragon right as it spawns?

[Daldaen]

Gonna stop you there.

If it's about competition and not loot you wouldn't be filing petition after petition trying to get your only competition in Class C suspended or loot returned. If you had such a fantastic rapport with IB that kind of stuff wouldn't be happening.

Sure you may enjoy your competition. But saying pixels don't motivate is a flat out lie. May not matter to some of you, eh maybe. But the guild as a whole, certainly.

[Tenlaar]

...or are you ready to prove yourselves and earn the right to get the big loot...

That right there is why you can only talk about one guild that you "compete" with. Most adults are not interested in "proving" anything to people on an elf sim and don't care if you think they have "the right" to loot.

[Daldaen]

You don't want to move to class "C" because you don't want to poop sock and kill a dragon right as it spawns.



Yet you want all of class "R" to poop sock and kill a dragon right as it spawns?

Staring at a wall for 16 hour straight with group(s) formed, ready to train, CotH, kite, Mez and faceroll your way to FTE.

Vs.

Having one individual checking track every 30min-1hour, sending out a batphone. Killing the mob within 2 hours from said batphone.

Nice try but not the same.

If Class C wants to allow a mob to spawn, let everyone batphone, then allow 2 hours of mobilization, then at a given time begin a footrace for the mob. I think you may find someone willing to join Class C.

[heartbrand]

Since this thread looks like it's gone down the shitter already, I may as well help flush it.

We got 100% of all raid targets this week on Red with zero variance. Was able to easily schedule my RL around the raid targets since I know exactly when they will spawn. Was a lot of fun.

[Swish]

This must be where someone makes a gif of a great depression bread line with all the guys named after blue guilds.

Had to settle for Soviet Russia during its collapse...

http://i.imgur.com/lpvp5Vo.gif

[Mendo]

To me it is the same. When I'm sleeping or at work I honestly could care less about killing some dragon. When I'm awake and have some time to devote to the Elf Sim, I'm totally after dat dragon blood!

[Mendo]

Since this thread looks like it's gone down the shitter already, I may as well help flush it.

We got 100% of all raid targets this week on Red with zero variance. Was able to easily schedule my RL around the raid targets since I know exactly when they will spawn. Was a lot of fun.

I tried red. I had a ton of fun until I ran into a bunch of fools running speed hacks to catch me and hit me with their T-staffs. I sent in a couple of petitions and saw nothing come from it. I left, that was a year or so ago so maybe things have changed?

[Argh]

It does make an impact. Removing what I spoke about would shorten the rotations that are unnaturally elongated due to the addition of guilds who, outside of perfect storm conditions, cannot take down mobs solo. These guilds just need to pair up with another guild in a similar situation on the mobs of such difficulty that they cannot bring them down alone

Every guild kills all of their mobs solo 90% of the time, unless already signed up in conjunction with another guild on the list. So this change won't make an impact on the length of rotations at all.

The only effect it will have is that the number of R-FFA snipes will go up(the only guild who even attempts to /stopwatch and snipe R FFA mobs now is Taken), which is why its important to understand that they don't want to be held accountable for these kills.

[Pikrib]

This must be where someone makes a gif of a great depression bread line with all the guys named after blue guilds.

Red
http://hulubei.net/tudor/photography/photos/W/a/Waiting-Line-1500x1000.jpg


Blue
http://i.imgur.com/WlfJuzU.jpg

[GreldorEQ]

If they happen to pick the wrong class they'll be forever hoping they can save enough plat to buy a MQ off a Class C guild if the rotation collapses.

This is exactly what it was like in Kunark/Velious days. Heck, this is what it was like in any expansion prior to being able to one or two group epic mobs with group-able gear.

Compared to how live was years ago, not much is different to us casual players who plan to dabble in raiding someday. This is our reality and I would imagine most people who are casual are content with this fact.

Blue gives us the opportunity to casually enjoy everquest with the added ability to AFK for extended periods of time without the fear of PVP. If the rotation woes of the server are frustrating to some, I wouldn't scare casual players into thinking it will affect them.

[Erati]

I love that Taken is the only R guild who "sets up to snipe" according to Argh yet Taken hasnt even sniped an R mob once

we have been asked to kill some mobs for another guilds turn when they couldnt

i suppose thats a snipe?

[Poosammich]

I'm coming in late I know, and to be honest don't really care as I'm miles away from any potential raiding and my main is a Necro. Which in my experience isn't a go to class for raids. Anyways. The nature of EQ has ALWAYS swayed to the neckbeards. Due to raid targets being uninstanced it was always FTE, and I don't recall any such rotation crap on Live. What we have here is a server trying to "instance" these bosses to share the loot so the poopsockers don't get everything. I do not envy the GM's for this one, but I could see how a months long rotation being abused would get old.

On a more on course note, there has to be a means to randomize some of these spawns, and still keep the weekly pops up? I know its not "classic", but there has to be a better alternative.

[skipdog]

Gonna stop you there.

If it's about competition and not loot you wouldn't be filing petition after petition trying to get your only competition in Class C suspended or loot returned. If you had such a fantastic rapport with IB that kind of stuff wouldn't be happening.

Sure you may enjoy your competition. But saying pixels don't motivate is a flat out lie. May not matter to some of you, eh maybe. But the guild as a whole, certainly.

Wow, you really are dense, aren't you? Part of competition is following rules and when the people you are competing with break the rules, you go to the authorities to ensure a fair and even competition. Nothing that you have said, shows that these guilds are motivated by loot 'because they filed a petition'. Your logic doesn't make any sense. Are you seriously not capable of understanding what competition means to the class C guilds?

It doesn't surprise me though, that the bigger class R guilds would do what they can to bully the smaller guilds who help eachother out, into changing the rules that were agreed to. They talk about how greedy and horrible TMO/IB are, yet they can't allow the smaller guilds to help each other out without making a fuss because 'oh noes, both those small guilds got to split the loot on 2 3am spawns instead of the 2 guilds having to split the loot from one spawn'.

The behavior of some of the larger class R guilds on this matter disgusts me.

[Tenlaar]

I don't recall any such rotation crap on Live.

It's been proven repeatedly that there were live servers that had rotations. Yours may not have, but mine did.

[Tenlaar]

Wow, you really are dense, aren't you? Part of competition is following rules

Then why are the guilds who always talk about competition constantly looking for any possible way to get around or lawyer the rules?

[Daldaen]

Every guild kills all of their mobs solo 90% of the time, unless already signed up in conjunction with another guild on the list. So this change won't make an impact on the length of rotations at all.

The only effect it will have is that the number of R-FFA snipes will go up(the only guild who even attempts to /stopwatch and snipe R FFA mobs now is Taken), which is why its important to understand that they don't want to be held accountable for these kills.

And the 10% of the times mean monthly guilds aren't able to kill a mob they are on rotation for. So they get assistance, and then in a few weeks they are able to assist that guild for a second kill.

It is also important to remember what precipitated the necessity for 12-hour alliance windows. When guilds would have blackout hours they would refuse to track or try to kill, mobs but at the same time they would refuse to drop down to the bottom of the rotation after failing to kill their Class R mob.

It did used to be worse. But it can still get better. Simply saying you kill a mob and get a lockout, you drop to bottom of rotation. That's all that needs to be said to improve the rotation. Covers guilds allying together, and the big-bad taken (who you appear to have a Pie-Chart-Hardon for) sniping Class R mobs after they go FFA. There should be mention that if you are repeatedly allying to kill a mob (IE cannot on your own) you should share a merged slot.

[Poosammich]

It's been proven repeatedly that there were live servers that had rotations. Yours may not have, but mine did.

This iteration of an MMO didn't get the "instanced" bug until LDoN I think, but even then things weren't perfect. However when you have 1000+ people all wanting pixels and and each target is only up 1(?) time a week its tough. If I were a GM I'd have to advocate adding more spawns despite the "classic" issue. I also don't recall how big my server(Mith Marr) was in its hay, but I think Blue is probably pretty close to its overall pop.

[Tenlaar]

This iteration of an MMO didn't get the "instanced" bug until LDoN I think, but even then things weren't perfect. However when you have 1000+ people all wanting pixels and and each target is only up 1(?) time a week its tough. If I were a GM I'd have to advocate adding more spawns despite the "classic" issue. I also don't recall how big my server(Mith Marr) was in its hay, but I think Blue is probably pretty close to its overall pop.

I'm not sure how your story relates to the fact that there were live servers that had rotations.

[kaev]

Then why are the guilds who always talk about competition constantly looking for any possible way to get around or lawyer the rules?

Pay no attention to what they actually do, it is not permitted to hold them accountable for their actions.

[Poosammich]

I'm not sure how your story relates to the fact that there were live servers that had rotations.

Simply stating that personally the solution I would choose would be more opportunity over more control. Also hardly thinking it was SOP for guilds to wait months to get another kill on mob X or Y.

[Paleman]

It's been proven repeatedly that there were live servers that had rotations. Yours may not have, but mine did.

yeah they had rotations of like 3-5 guilds maybe but not like the volume here, when servers got this populated in the top end it wasnt uncommon for Verant/SOE to split the server.

[Mendo]

yeah they had rotations of like 3-5 guilds maybe but not like the volume here, when servers got this populated in the top end it wasnt uncommon for Verant/SOE to split the server.

Chardok proxy?

[Argh]

And the 10% of the times mean monthly guilds aren't able to kill a mob they are on rotation for. So they get assistance, and then in a few weeks they are able to assist that guild for a second kill.

Again, that doesn't happen. People don't team up for mobs and then have an implicit agreement to team up on the other guilds kill (It makes no sense for the aiding guild to oblige to this).

It is also important to remember what precipitated the necessity for 12-hour alliance windows. When guilds would have blackout hours they would refuse to track or try to kill, mobs but at the same time they would refuse to drop down to the bottom of the rotation after failing to kill their Class R mob.

The blackouts were and still are completely retarded.

It did used to be worse. But it can still get better. Simply saying you kill a mob and get a lockout, you drop to bottom of rotation. That's all that needs to be said to improve the rotation. Covers guilds allying together, and the big-bad taken (who you appear to have a Pie-Chart-Hardon for) sniping Class R mobs after they go FFA.

Sure but neither side is ever really willing to compromise without a half day vent-summit where everyone screams at one another until theres 4 people left standing to hammer out a deal. Each vent summit is preceded by the exact scenario that is playing out now. Taken/Div/BDA want new rules, and threaten to go rogue if they aren't implemented.

Taken/Div/BDA feel they don't really need to compromise because they think they have all the leverage because if they leave the rotation they will get every 1/3 R mob.

Everyone else feels that they have all the leverage because they are 7/10 of the guilds in the rotation and control a clear super majority.

Nothing ever really happens in FAP without it going completely nuclear, because there is no system in place to actually implement new rules or policies. It's just one side screaming at the other on FAP until they get on vent to scream at each other until there are new rules.

Also, anyone who has ever had to deal with Taken on FAP shares the disdain I have for them.

[Erati]

Also, anyone who has ever had to deal with Taken on FAP shares the disdain I have for them.

finally something you said I can agree with !

[Swish]

Is it time BDA and Taken considered Class C? That would allow the rotation to continue and they could contest for big pixels, rather than trying to drag all the other R guilds down that path with them.

Or are they... chicken?

http://i.imgur.com/GdS9UR5.png

[Daldaen]

It still should have you dropping your rotation slot or merging and sharing the slot if you're having to call in help to kill the mob before your 6 hours are up.

They control a super majority if you're looking at it like the Senate. But if you're doing House of Representatives... I'd wager its a pretty even split.

Eh I bet it's just Fing you are salty with. If you catch Old-Man-Fing past his bedtime he can be cranky.

[Swish]

I'm not looking at it like the senate, I'm looking at it like they represent 2/10 of the guilds and are a minority with higher aspirations for what they want out of the server.

Those who don't want to compete I'm sure would be welcome apps by the other class R guilds.

[Bristlebard]

It's quite beyond me why the staff don't just remove variance and every rule specific to raid NPCs and stay hands off, letting the group that gets experience for the kill get the loot.

[Swish]

the question is, do you duck/cancel sunstrike on all wizards before the engage or go straight in knowing you're about to die in a horrible mess where everyone logs in their raiding wizards for "nuke roulette"?

it wouldnt end well and wouldnt represent a classic engage anymore (warriors, CH rotation, etc)

[Bristlebard]

Classic engage? Has that ever existed on p99? Are you just using the word classic for shits and giggles?

[Bristlebard]

Anyways. I never said my suggestion would be even close to ideal. But it could not possibly be less retarded than anything else that has happened in the server's raid scene... plus it doesn't require the staff to babysit these guilds all the time.

[Swish]

Classic engage? Has that ever existed on p99? Are you just using the word classic for shits and giggles?

You're either stupid or trolling. I think (and hope) it's the latter... unless you don't consider using a warrior/cleric CH rotation as the traditional way to take down dragon_x/y.

What you're suggesting is a server without GMs. Sirken recently said he was ending the 'wild west' environment on red... imagine what 100s of pixel hungry nerds could be capable of on blue with GMs absent completely.

[Daldaen]

32k Dragons... Ehh bit less so. With AE damage and AE fear, CH gets used very rarely on outdoor Dragons.

Regardless.

Remove Variance.

[Bristlebard]

You're either stupid or trolling. I think (and hope) it's the latter... unless you don't consider using a warrior/cleric CH rotation as the traditional way to take down dragon_x/y.

What you're suggesting is a server without GMs. Sirken recently said he was ending the 'wild west' environment on red... imagine what 100s of pixel hungry nerds could be capable of on blue with GMs absent completely.

You're wrong all over.

First off, very little of a DA-initiated, full mallet into the boss, 30-second kill of a Kunark raid boss while the raid is drinking stinging wort pots and clicking reapers/soulfires is "classic" in the sense that it was typically seen in 2000. And that doesn't even get to the number of guilds in the raid scene here, the way races to engage happen, the lack of repops on the server compared to more-than-weekly on live, and all that other stuff. And I think you know this goes on, and I think you know that it wasn't how things went down back in the day, and I think you're just using word "classic" because you think it suits whatever argument you were trying to make.

And I definitely did not suggest a server without GMs. I suggested raid-specific rules (so all of the rotation this, class C that, log out here, you're blacked out, all that crap) be removed. Rules that are always in place, no training, no cheating, etc., would remain. The staff just wouldn't be arbitrating FTEs and watching for stalling and all of that all the time.

[Swish]

No you're wrong all over!

If you're enforcing no training/no cheating you'll need a GM present or at least some fraps evidence for a lengthy ElfQuest lawsuit... and punishing/judging a guild for those actions? Well shit, you'll need a GM son.

next

[Erati]

I know its hard to believe but saying if we want to compete we should join Class C is beyond dumb.

Class C is about VP access period.

No guild would become Class C without first becoming VP ready else you are literally cutting off 6 of the tastiest mobs avail to the Class.

Moving to Class C so we can compete on Talendor 2 out of the 3 weeks is beyond stupid and anyone that keeps suggesting as such needs to rethink what they are saying.

Class C is where the true neckbeards flock, the two guilds there have probably an overwhelming majority of that type of player when compared to Class R guilds- because lets face it- in the past the TMOs and IBs were where all the elite neckbeards defected from their respective leveling guilds for, which is fine thats EQ.

But to expect BDA or Taken to suddenly have a similiar amount of neckbeards ( when many of our most neckbeardy players have long jumped ship ) to compete with TMO/IB on not just a weekly basis but also on nearly 3X as many targets is guild suicide.

No thanks.

[Man0warr]

Personally I would like more competition up here in Class C with us. There are guilds that are ready.

What guilds are ready? BDA has maybe 45 VP keyed characters, and 20 of those are completely inactive. When we were in Class C for the week you guys were suspended, we could barely scrape together 30 keyed characters (and 10-12 of those were active people playing inactive characters that they didn't own and obviously couldn't get loot for their own characters). Even some of those active people with VP keys are only semi-active.

If we can barely field a force for scheduled VP kills with zero competition, we have no chance to field enough characters for random VP pops with 2 other guilds competing. There's no point in going to Class C in that scenario.

Why is this? We have barely gotten any Trak teeth through a year of Class R, and getting Trak through FFA is nearly impossible unless it's a repop. I know Taken is in the same boat.

The rotation doesn't promote going to Class C very well. If it was just BDA/Taken/Div this whole year getting Class R Trak kills then someone might have a good enough force keyed by now but the rotation has mostly just been a way for the smaller guilds to sell their Trak teeth as MQs to TMO/IB hopefuls.

Also what Eratani said^^, moving to Class C is the fastest way to kill our guilds. BDA and Taken playerbase might be 10% neckbeard, the rest would go join a Class R guild.

[Mendo]

I know its hard to believe but saying if we want to compete we should join Class C is beyond dumb.

Class C is about VP access period.

No guild would become Class C without first becoming VP ready else you are literally cutting off 6 of the tastiest mobs avail to the Class.

Moving to Class C so we can compete on Talendor 2 out of the 3 weeks is beyond stupid and anyone that keeps suggesting as such needs to rethink what they are saying.

Class C is where the true neckbeards flock, the two guilds there have probably an overwhelming majority of that type of player when compared to Class R guilds- because lets face it- in the past the TMOs and IBs were where all the elite neckbeards defected from their respective leveling guilds for, which is fine thats EQ.

But to expect BDA or Taken to suddenly have a similiar amount of neckbeards ( when many of our most neckbeardy players have long jumped ship ) to compete with TMO/IB on not just a weekly basis but also on nearly 3X as many targets is guild suicide.

No thanks.

IB got their keys through competition, no?

[Swish]

...the rotation has mostly just been a way for the smaller guilds to sell their Trak teeth as MQs to TMO/IB hopefuls.

Which guilds are doing that? I don't think I've seen a tooth for sale in EC.

[Man0warr]

IB got their keys through competition, no?

I'd bet the majority of the current active crop of TMO/IB got their teeth from Class R MQ's or were ex-Class R folks who got their teeth from the rotation.

[Mendo]

I'd bet the majority of the current active crop of TMO/IB got their teeth from Class R MQ's or were ex-Class R folks who got their teeth from the rotation.

True, we've lost several members to this very act.

[Swish]

So what you're saying is you want more Trakanon kills to get more VP keys to stick around in whatever Class R turns into?

Can't fault that logic.

[Swish]

True, we've lost several members to this very act.

What's Asgard's policy on trak teeth? /random 1000 ? Might want to look at that, give them to your longest serving members who you know will stick around.

[Daldaen]

IB got their keys through competition, no?

We don't want to compete for FFA Trakanon.

That requires 4 Mages and 2 fully formed groups the entire 16 hour window. Read - Poopsocking. We can do it on VS cause it doesn't require so many Mages.

Remove 16 hour variance and replace with a 30min window.

We would be much more inclined to attempt to compete on a Trakanon if the window were semi-favorable.

[Man0warr]

So what you're saying is you want more Trakanon kills to get more VP keys to stick around in whatever Class R turns into?

Can't fault that logic.

Not really - BDA will never move to Class C willingly unless there was some changes to how it operates (or all Class C is suspended for training and we can snipe some scheduled VP loot), and since that's the whole point of Class C I don't see why there should be changes.

We don't have the playerbase with the right mindset for it to be anything but guild suicide. Most of the members we had with that mindset have already left and are in TMO/IB, or they hate TMO/IB (or just have friends in BDA) so much that they would never join them.

Class R fits the playstyle of our current membership.

But it doesn't negate that we aren't ready for Class C if we hypothetically wanted to move up. No Class R guild is because the rotation has spread out the available Trak's teeth so much.

[Swish]

I'm at a loss, why change the status quo if you're not looking to progress? That goes for Taken too.

Say you secured all the class R Trak repops and the odd FFA because you wanted to move up... it would upset people but you'd be doing it for progression at least.

What good is an extra donal BP or two at this point in the timeline really?

[Erati]

I'm at a loss, why change the status quo if you're not looking to progress? That goes for Taken too.

Say you secured all the class R Trak repops and the odd FFA because you wanted to move up... it would upset people but you'd be doing it for progression at least.

What good is an extra donal BP or two at this point in the timeline really?

this may come as a shock to you but

Taken has been against allies ( in terms of not sharing rotation spots or both not rotating ) and against the 'lazyness' of the rotation pretty much since the first couple rounds of sillyness started to happen ( oh the joy of 18 hour blackouts and guilds living in the top slot )

None of the changes BDA suggested are brand new never been seen before.

The rotation has never actually had a carrot on the end of it's stick- the carrot was always handed to the guild leaders when they signed the dotted line of the mob lists.

The new re-organization of the rotation effectively puts a carrot on the stick so guilds have a reason to you know kill their targets as the entity they signed up as.

thats all we have ever really wanted.

I think my Swish response quota for the day is complete. Work near an end.

[Man0warr]

I'm at a loss, why change the status quo if you're not looking to progress? That goes for Taken too.

Say you secured all the class R Trak repops and the odd FFA because you wanted to move up... it would upset people but you'd be doing it for progression at least.

What good is an extra donal BP or two at this point in the timeline really?

Read the proposal - the whole point is to prepare the Class R guilds for Velious, because the class system is going away when it releases. Mostly by trying to force guilds into better mobilization.

The rotation has made all the Class R guilds worse at everything raid related, or splintered us into smaller guilds to get their own loot from the rotations.

I'm guessing the small guilds just want to wring the rotation for all it's worth before it all goes away, then they will reform into larger guilds or just disappear when Velious hits.

Also, BDA has never gotten a Donal's off Trakanon, ever. Just shitty druid/shaman/paladin BPs.

[Swish]

This sounds like wordplay for "we want to compete and want more pixels, but we don't want to compete in Class C because we won't win".

#justsaying

...and what does one rotation guild care about another guild's Velious prep? The slow and sleepy won't see pixels, and that's their own problem to work on.

[Erati]

This sounds like wordplay for "we want to compete and want more pixels, but we don't want to compete in Class C because we won't win".

#justsaying

...and what does one rotation guild care about another guild's Velious prep?


Just making me break my quota arnt you.

But.

Yes- Taken cannot compete in Class C because we would never win as evidenced by FFA kills we acquire in recent months, usually versus Class C opponents.

But all the other logical, sensible, and reasonable things I mentioned that are the primary reasons for us deciding not to move the guild up a tier surely are just hot air.

I mean what do I know, Ive only been here since Dec 2009. Amirite?

[Man0warr]

...and what does one rotation guild care about another guild's Velious prep? The slow and sleepy won't see pixels, and that's their own problem to work on.

We don't really, but the current rotation system makes everyone lazy, including our own guild.

[Pint]

What's Asgard's policy on trak teeth? /random 1000 ? Might want to look at that, give them to your longest serving members who you know will stick around.

We work on a dkp bidding system with minimum reqs for dragon (class r loot) which is 100 lifetime dkp earned and 20% RA over 60 days. We try not to deviate although I'm sure all members can cite examples of where we have slipped up along the way.

My thought behind alliances is that if two guilds field 20 people each and split loot in half then they wait another 2 months or w/e and split loot in half again then are they really getting more than the 40 members of the guild that killed it solo for all of the loot? It seems like the loot is not the real issue here but rather just the opportunity to fight the imaginary dragon (something that I obviously live for!).

[Swish]

Just making me break my quota arnt you.

<3

My first interaction with BDA was in 2010 as a noob outside Neriak one time. 20-25 of you were outside there waiting for something to happen, and handed me a weapon and buffed the shit out of me.

Great people, great times...probably had the best rep on the server and many giving folks.

Now for whatever sensible/logical reasons there's a suggestion of ditching the rotation for more pixel gain. That's the bottom line, more pixels. Right?

As much as I'm sure BDA/Taken/etc care about Asgard's Velious raid prep and all...

Why not maintain the status quo or move up rather than trying to conquer the smaller guilds because you think you can get more?

[Man0warr]

My thought behind alliances is that if two guilds field 20 people each and split loot in half then they wait another 2 months or w/e and split loot in half again then are they really getting more than the 40 members of the guild that killed it solo for all of the loot? It seems like the loot is not the real issue here but rather just the opportunity to fight the imaginary dragon (something that I obviously live for!).

If you look at your 20+20 as the same as the single 40 guild, you are getting twice the amount of loot since you are in the rotation twice vs just the once.

Your scenario makes it sounds like your 2 guilds as an alliance are just a single entity on the rotation, but as of now you take up 2 slots.

Why not maintain the status quo or move up rather than trying to conquer the smaller guilds because you think you can get more?

Because alliances are taking advantage of the current rotation rules and that directly hurts any Class R guild who doesn't ally with another guild to get 2 spots on every mob rotation.

[Argh]

Why not maintain the status quo or move up rather than trying to conquer the smaller guilds because you think you can get more?

BDA/Taken feel slighted because they got hosed during the last period for rule changes. They wanted what they're proposing now, almost verbatim, and instead got a rule put in place that has had absolutely zero effect on what they had issue with.

Really what Taken/Div/BDA wants is to get rid of R guilds ability to ever use assistance of another guild. In doing so, either the lists get shorter, or more mobs go R-FFA where they are likely to kill them without penalty.

They think that any guild that needs help to kill a mob shouldn't be signed up for that mob. I think that is a point that everyone can agree on, however, where everyone disagrees is how to judge that. Everyone on the rotation has killed every mob solo, and even BDA has required assistance from 2 guilds to kill early AM Trak, and recently Divinity failed to kill Gore within their allotted solo time. They rely heavily on the assertion that smaller guilds rely on the help of other guilds consistently, however this
is not based in reality and is complete malarkey.

Their position isn't ridiculous or without merit, but they're absolutely awful at negotiating and managing relationships which is critical to maintaining an agreement between 10 different guilds.

[skipdog]

If you look at your 20+20 as the same as the single 40 guild, you are getting twice the amount of loot since you are in the rotation twice vs just the once.

Your scenario makes it sounds like your 2 guilds as an alliance are just a single entity on the rotation, but as of now you take up 2 slots.



Because alliances are taking advantage of the current rotation rules and that directly hurts any Class R guild who doesn't ally with another guild to get 2 spots on every mob rotation.

I'm confused. How does it hurt all R guilds when 2 guilds split their loot between their 2 kills on the rotation? Who cares? Is it that hard to simply 'pretend they did field a crew at 3am'? These guilds aren't getting anything 'extra', just a little help for 3am spawns when they've been waiting 2 months for their turn.

It'd just be refreshing if the big class R guilds would quit pretending like this is anything other than 'we think we should get more loot than the other R guilds who aren't as large and can't field a crew at 3am'. It's like 2-3 spawns/month. That is so inconsequential.

[Man0warr]

I'm confused. How does it hurt all R guilds when 2 guilds split their loot between their 2 kills on the rotation? Who cares? Is it that hard to simply 'pretend they did field a crew at 3am'? These guilds aren't getting anything 'extra', just a little help for 3am spawns when they've been waiting 2 months for their turn.


Because their getting twice the loot for the same (or less) amount of people at the raid, and a lot of times they can't kill said raid mob without the alliance. It's more spawns going to less people, and making it take longer for the rotation to get back around to the larger guilds.

So either become an alliance (or merge) and take up 1 slot on the rotation, or fail to kill the mob and the rotation moves on.

If BDA/Taken/Div really wanted to take advantage of the situation, they would just split up into 2 guilds and ally for everything. It would make the rotation even longer but it would be some % more loots than they are getting now. But no one would do that because it's fucking stupid to be forced to do such a thing.

[maskedmelon]

I'm confused. How does it hurt all R guilds when 2 guilds split their loot between their 2 kills on the rotation? Who cares? Is it that hard to simply 'pretend they did field a crew at 3am'? These guilds aren't getting anything 'extra', just a little help for 3am spawns when they've been waiting 2 months for their turn.


I do not see that being an issue, but if you have half a dozen 6 man guilds on the rotation and they all ally with a single 30 man guild and loot is distributed proportionally then there could be issues ^^

That is an exaggeration, but you get the idea ^^

[Mendo]

Because their getting twice the loot for the same (or less) amount of people at the raid, and a lot of times they can't kill said raid mob without the alliance. It's more spawns going to less people, and making it take longer for the rotation to get back around to the larger guilds.

So either become an alliance (or merge) and take up 1 slot on the rotation, or fail to kill the mob and the rotation moves on.

If BDA/Taken/Div really wanted to take advantage of the situation, they would just split up into 2 guilds and ally for everything. It would make the rotation even longer but it would be some % more loots than they are getting now. But no one would do that because it's fucking stupid to be forced to do such a thing.

Can't we all agree that waking up at 3am to kill a poop socked mob is lame?

[Mendo]

We work on a dkp bidding system with minimum reqs for dragon (class r loot) which is 100 lifetime dkp earned and 20% RA over 60 days. We try not to deviate although I'm sure all members can cite examples of where we have slipped up along the way.

My thought behind alliances is that if two guilds field 20 people each and split loot in half then they wait another 2 months or w/e and split loot in half again then are they really getting more than the 40 members of the guild that killed it solo for all of the loot? It seems like the loot is not the real issue here but rather just the opportunity to fight the imaginary dragon (something that I obviously live for!).

If you put in work you should get paid... I believe we allow people to spend their earned DKP to help them have more fun in the game. Sometimes that means that they are going to leave our guild to join a bigger monster guild to kill VP mobs.

[Man0warr]

Can't we all agree that waking up at 3am to kill a poop socked mob is lame?

I agree, but that won't change as long as there is 16 hour variance, which is a much bigger issue than this Class R stuff.

[Daldaen]

Getting rid of assistance where the assister doesn't drop to the bottom of the rotation.***

Guilds should be encouraged to kill mobs on their own. If they cannot that is fine they are welcome to ally up and occupy a single rotation slot as a pair of guilds.

[loramin]

Getting rid of assistance where the assister doesn't drop to the bottom of the rotation.***

Guilds should be encouraged to kill mobs on their own. If they cannot that is fine they are welcome to ally up and occupy a single rotation slot as a pair of guilds.

Can someone please explain the fixation on allied guilds? As Pint so eloquently stated:

if two guilds field 20 people each and split loot in half then they wait another 2 months or w/e and split loot in half again then are they really getting more than the 40 members of the guild that killed it solo for all of the loot?

In other words, the two scenarios of "Guild A and B ally together" and "Guild A and B raid separately" work out exactly the same. If a dragon has 10 pieces of loot (for easy math):

Scenario 1: Allies
Month 1: Guild A gets 5 items; Guild B gets 5 items
Month 2: Guild A gets 5 items; Guild B gets 5 items
End: Both guilds have 10 items


Scenario 2: Allies
Month 1: Guild A gets 10 pieces of loot
Month 2: Guild B gets 10 pieces of loot
End: Both guilds have 10 items

Serious question (not trolling): what am I missing?

[Tann]

The rotation isn't dead yet. If it ever was there's a few alternatives...

1. Take it like a chump and accept less.
2. Consider red (always a good option)
3. Compete, or merge guilds til you just have 3 huge zerg guilds in a highly toxic/competitive raid scene.
4. Play something else or somewhere else.

1. doing less work for less loot doesn't a chump make.
2. the current iteration of EQLive is more classic then R99.
3. is what live was, though obviously not this many years of kunark and all the other "this aint live" balder dash.
4. WoW/GW2/etc are indeed options if you don't want to put the effort Class C puts in for the pixels.

[Man0warr]

Can someone please explain the fixation on allied guilds? As Pint so eloquently stated:



In other words, the two scenarios of "Guild A and B ally together" and "Guild A and B raid separately" work out exactly the same. If a dragon has 10 pieces of loot (for easy math):

Scenario 1: Allies
Month 1: Guild A gets 5 items; Guild B gets 5 items
Month 2: Guild A gets 5 items; Guild B gets 5 items
End: Both guilds have 10 items


Scenario 2: Allies
Month 1: Guild A gets 10 pieces of loot
Month 2: Guild B gets 10 pieces of loot
End: Both guilds have 10 items

Serious question (not trolling): what am I missing?

It doesn't work like that.

Each guild in the alliance gets a slot in the rotation, so the alliance thus has TWO kills per rotation (they team up for each individual guilds slot). That's 20 pieces of loot per cycle.

Meanwhile, large guild not in an alliance only has 1 slot per rotation, thus they only get 10 pieces of loot that entire cycle.

In the proposal being hammered out now, your scenario would be true - the alliance would only take up 1 slot per rotation cycle, and would have to remain part of that alliance for all kills.

[loramin]

It doesn't work like that.

Each guild in the alliance gets a slot in the rotation, so the alliance thus has TWO kills per rotation (they team up for each individual guilds slot). That's 20 pieces of loot per cycle.

Right, the alliance does have TWO kills per rotation (ie. 20 pieces of loot), but unlike the un-allied guilds they have to split the loot from those kills TWO ways (ie. 10 pieces of loot per guild per cycle), right?

This isn't complex math: 1 = 2 * 1/2. So again, what am I missing?

[Man0warr]

Right, the alliance does have TWO kills per rotation (ie. 20 pieces of loot), but unlike the un-allied guilds they have to split the loot from those kills TWO ways (ie. 10 pieces of loot per guild per cycle), right?

This isn't complex math: 1 = 2 * 1/2. So again, what am I missing?

Couple things:


Unless perfect circumstances, they couldn't kill the mob without said alliance.
They are making the rotation take longer. (this is the biggest one)
They get double the chance at good loot dropping per cycle.
They are awarding double the loot to less players. (For instance, let's say the 2 small allied guilds have 50 players combined who raid, and BDA/Taken/Div have 100. 20 pieces of loot to 50 players compared to 10 pieces of loot for 100 per rotation cycle).


All these things are unfair to any guild who doesn't ally - it's taking advantage of the way the current system works. It also leaves loopholes to take it even further. What if Taken split up into 4 25-person raid guilds - now they get 40 loot per cycle to 100 players. It makes the rotation longer, but fuck who cares?

[iruinedyourday]

2. Consider red (always a good option)

/transfer cus why not

[Errakus]

Small allied guilds have 50 players combined who raid, and BDA/Taken/Div have 100. 20 pieces of loot to 50 players compared to 10 pieces of loot for 100 per rotation cycle).


AKA Zerging, I wouldn't even call that raiding... When you can just yank it in one hand and slap 1 2 3 in the other while raiding and still down the mobs, you're either a warrior, rogue, or in BDA.

[loramin]

Unless perfect circumstances, they couldn't kill the mob without said alliance.

Right, and you can't kill a dragon by yourself either :p. The entire point of raiding in EverQuest is to get a group of people to kill something they couldn't kill on their own.


They get double the chance at good loot dropping per cycle.

Let me just repeat: 2 * 1/2 = 1. This is something a second grader understands, it isn't rocket science. Yes the two allied guilds get two chances at the loot, but any individual guild member has only half the chance in each case, so it amounts to the same thing as an un-allied guild.


They are awarding double the loot to less players. (For instance, let's say the 2 small allied guilds have 50 players combined who raid, and BDA/Taken/Div have 100. 20 pieces of loot to 50 players compared to 10 pieces of loot for 100 per rotation cycle).

So you're saying it's unfair that when 50 people kill a dragon they have twice the chance at its loot as when 100 people kill the dragon? Of course defeating content with fewer players should be rewarded.


They are making the rotation take longer. (this is the biggest one)


What if Taken split up into 4 25-person raid guilds - now they get 40 loot per cycle to 100 players. It makes the rotation longer, but fuck who cares?

Ah, now you've gotten to the crux of the matter: rotation slots/loot piles are allocated by guild (irrespective of size), but any individual player's chance of getting some loot depends on their guild's size. I think this is a legitimately unfair aspect of the current system: taken to it's logical extreme every guild would want to be as small as possible, and tons of tiny guilds isn't in anyone's best interest.

But if guild size is really the issue (as it seems to be), couldn't it be solved by adding a minimum guild size requirement to be able to join the rotation? Or at least a minimum guild size to ally (eg. if you want to raid with 18 badass people then you get your own slot, but if you want to work with another guild you both have to have at least 40 players). Or what if raid slots were just allocated by guild size, so an 100 person guild would get the same number of slots as two 50 person guilds?

A guild-size-based solution would address the issue far more directly and with a lot less controversy. After all, most reasonable people would agree that 100 people should get twice the loot of 50 people, regardless of who belongs to what guild, so why not solve the guild size problem instead of worrying about who can kill Gorenaire?

[Man0warr]

AKA Zerging, I wouldn't even call that raiding... When you can just yank it in one hand and slap 1 2 3 in the other while raiding and still down the mobs, you're either a warrior, rogue, or in BDA.

These are just ballpark numbers. BDA rarely has more than 30 ppl per raid - the 100 was just a number of people i'd say have been semi-active in the last few months - they don't show up for every raid.

The most people we will have is 50-60 during repops, that's really the only thing that people will drop real life for to log in.





Ah, now you've gotten to the crux of the matter: rotation slots/loot piles are allocated by guild (irrespective of size), but any individual player's chance of getting some loot depends on their guild's size. I think this is a legitimately unfair aspect of the current system: taken to it's logical extreme every guild would want to be as small as possible, and tons of tiny guilds isn't in anyone's best interest.

But if guild size is really the issue (as it seems to be), couldn't it be solved by adding a minimum guild size requirement to be able to join the rotation? Or at least a minimum guild size to ally (eg. if you want to raid with 18 badass people then you get your own slot, but if you want to work with another guild you both have to have at least 40 players). Or what if raid slots were just allocated by guild size, so an 100 person guild would get the same number of slots as two 50 person guilds?

A guild-size-based solution would address the issue far more directly and with a lot less controversy. After all, most reasonable people would agree that 100 people should get twice the loot of 50 people, regardless of who belongs to what guild, so why not solve the guild size problem instead of worrying about who can kill Gorenaire?

Yes, this is what it all boils down to. I'm not part of the negotiations but it seems like Gorenaire part should be changed.

[Daldaen]

Assuming 2 BP, 4 Teeth, 4 Spells

BDA brings 50 to Trak, gets 2 BP, 4 Teeth, 4 Spells -- Drops to bottom of Rotation

Guild A brings 25 to Trak gets 1 BP, 2 Teeth, 2 Spells -- Drops to bottom of Rotation
Guild B brings 25 to Trak gets 1 BP, 2 Teeth, 2 Spells

Guild A brings 25 to Trak gets 1 BP, 2 Teeth, 2 Spells
Guild B brings 25 to Trak gets 1 BP, 2 Teeth, 2 Spells -- Drops to bottom of Rotation
--Rotation starts over--

So Guild A and Guild B get the same # of loot as BDA, but they are splitting it with fewer players. Not because BDA is a zerg and Guild A is an elite-strike team of ballers. Because Guild A cannot solo kill Trakanon unless they have solid attendance during a good spawn time.

Reward players for accomplishing things with fewer players, definitely agree. But here players get awarded for simply having different guild tags and coming to a simple agreement.

[Argh]

BDA is a zerg and Guild A is an elite-strike team of ballers

[Doors]

Red sucks. People play here for classic. There is nothing classic about red.

A statement made from someone that probably has never played the red server. Gotta love bluebies.

Enjoy your end game shitshow and raid rules you would need a lawyer to understand. Left blue a long time ago and could not be happier.

[Errakus]

Left blue a long time ago and could not be happier.

Except you come back to try to recruit and talk on the blue server forums because Red is so amazing, that MUST be it!

[Doors]

I never come here to try and recruit people from blue. If they come over that's great. But I'm perfectly happy with reds population as is. Reds population will never be as high as blue and I'm cool with that. To be honest the last thing we want on red is an influx of the toxic top end trash playing on blue. These are the people that ruined p99 for everyone, you guys can keep them as far as I'm concerned.

The bottom line is the majority of people on blue can't handle red because they can't handle dying or losing their camps to other players. You see this all the time in your current raid scene on this server as major guilds that have been around forever still try and monopolize content for gear they don't even need. You see this in the monopolization of MQ camps for platinum most people don't even need anymore. They'll be damned if anyone other than themselves or their core group are going to collect dragon loot. This isn't done through any effort or display of skill or ability to play but rather through your insane raid rules and general availability to play and log in whenever the batphone goes off.

Red makes it about something other than lawyerquesting and availability as raid mobs are static. You know when they're spawning and if you want raid loot all you need to do is show up and kill the other people there trying to obtain it.

[Rangerest]

actually you can just instantly join holocaust and get the loot you dont need to kill anyone

[Doors]

True.

[Clark]

These red threads are becoming like rabbits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoweL2EsiII

[w1zard]

Oh hey it's thread #333213 on this topic.

Force rotation
Increase spawn rate and/or more earthquakes
Allow triggering of raid mobs certain times a month for all guilds
Make new server for casuals

Any other solution would be overly complicated and fail. Raid scene is saturated - most servers during 1999-2001 era didn't have this many raiders. Not my classic experience at least.

It's really, really simple. It won't happen though and we all know that. Argue on and QQ more.

[Clark]

When you all forced us into this rotation last year, we predicted that the Class R guilds who supported this raiding system would become unsettled as their guild numbers and experience became stronger. Now you have several guilds in viable contention to challenge us and IB. Their only excuse for not moving up is the commitment required in the form of tracking/batphone response.

Because of their unwillingness to actually work for their loot, they are now your forcing the smaller guilds into an unequitable restructuring. The same thing we were forced into when the rotation system was shoved down our throats.

How about this. There are only two guilds to compete against in Class C. Loot for all. Stop being the big fish in the little pond and come join us in the big leagues and let the Class R guilds get their kills when they come up on the list. Then you learn what the competitive raiding experience is really like; both the rewarding part and the disappointment. Both positive and negative experiences foster the true competitive raiding experience classic EQ was all about. But if you really don't want to work for it, then just stay Class R and keep things status quo. Don't force the smaller guilds into an unequitable position because you guys are truly just too lazy to move up.

Morphius 60 Enchanter - The Mystical Order
Tempyst 60 Ranger
Liquidreach 60 Cleric
Kimchi 60 Necromancer

Well put Morph.

[Llodd]

Assuming 2 BP, 4 Teeth, 4 Spells

BDA brings 50 to Trak, gets 2 BP, 4 Teeth, 4 Spells -- Drops to bottom of Rotation

Guild A brings 25 to Trak gets 1 BP, 2 Teeth, 2 Spells -- Drops to bottom of Rotation
Guild B brings 25 to Trak gets 1 BP, 2 Teeth, 2 Spells

Guild A brings 25 to Trak gets 1 BP, 2 Teeth, 2 Spells
Guild B brings 25 to Trak gets 1 BP, 2 Teeth, 2 Spells -- Drops to bottom of Rotation
--Rotation starts over--

So Guild A and Guild B get the same # of loot as BDA, but they are splitting it with fewer players. Not because BDA is a zerg and Guild A is an elite-strike team of ballers. Because Guild A cannot solo kill Trakanon unless they have solid attendance during a good spawn time.

Reward players for accomplishing things with fewer players, definitely agree. But here players get awarded for simply having different guild tags and coming to a simple agreement.

25+25 = 25

That math yo