Lifetap resists

[drelk001]

IIRC NPCs couldnt resist lifetaps, on P99... they can.

[gnatch]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=395960&postcount=1


Ivandyr's Hoop
This item has caused an inbalance in the raid game, and as such we have made some changes. In addition to a global resist increase to all lifetap spells, Ivandyr's Hoop has had it's rarity slightly increased, it has had it's merchant value removed (it can not be sold or recharged to merchants), and it will be disabled in Veeshan's Peak. We will evaluate if further changes need to be made.

[Bristlebard]

Such a shame, too. Sure seems like just removing the click from the hoop and leaving lifetap resists alone would have been a much better way to handle the problem.

[drelk001]

thats bummer... not classic though

[Nirgon]

Such a shame, too. Sure seems like just removing the click from the hoop and leaving lifetap resists alone would have been a much better way to handle the problem.

[baalzy]

Isn't it classic for lifetaps to not land on mobs +6 levels over you and on mobs that are 100% magic immune?

There are some mobs that shouldn't be resisting that are though (like Cazic).

[w1zard]

thats bummer... not classic though

raid scene wasn't as desperate during classic leading to these kinds of strategies either

[wycca]

Isn't it classic for lifetaps to not land on mobs +6 levels over you and on mobs that are 100% magic immune?

There are some mobs that shouldn't be resisting that are though (like Cazic).

Classic had a change involving lifetaps at some point to work something like this. Prior to that lvl 20 necros could run around together burning down sand giants and such.

I don't think its fair at all to necros or sk's that these don't work just because of hoops.

Fix the lifetap code, nerf only ivandyr's to be like -0 or -50MR, un-nerf all others (including deadly). Honestly there's no reason the ivandy'rs tap can't just be a new spell with the same name but less of a resist mod.

[kaev]

Isn't it classic for lifetaps to not land on mobs +6 levels over you and on mobs that are 100% magic immune?

There are some mobs that shouldn't be resisting that are though (like Cazic).

On live, the mob auto-resist when 6+ levels higher than player caster was(is?) vs. all spells and not specific to lifetaps. It apparently bothered the original devs deeply that a zerg of low level players might use lifetaps and druid dots to take down a high level mob.

I cannot recall there being an exemption for lifetaps vs. 100% MR mobs, they resisted everything that was magic based.

[koros]

They went through several iterations of code changes it seems.

My first char was a necro, and we definitely got 6 16-20 necromancers together and dropped sand giants in like, june 99. Probably the most fun I ever had in eq, but I digress. Lifetaps definitely didn't seem to apply the hard and fast level rule that other spells did.

[kaev]

They went through several iterations of code changes it seems.

My first char was a necro, and we definitely got 6 16-20 necromancers together and dropped sand giants in like, june 99. Probably the most fun I ever had in eq, but I digress. Lifetaps definitely didn't seem to apply the hard and fast level rule that other spells did.

I wonder if there was a patch message. I recall discussion of the +6 level thing, can't recall if it was started by a patch message tho (I started playing live in July of '99).

[Potus]

Yes there was a group called the Necro Death Squad that was all Necromancers and they actually cleared Fear using just lifetaps and pets. it got necromancers nerfed hard, and that was when irresistible spells got a +6 spell limit.

I don't know if it was in the patch notes, at that time Verant was bad about listing changes in patches, and there were a lot of stealth nerfs that went in during that time, for example Mage and Necro pets had their summoned levels changed, changes to attack, resists, damage delay from Fine Steel Daggers making pets permahasted, etc.

[Catashe]

Couldn't they just have nerfed Spirit Tap instead of all lifetaps? I mean sure it would have annoyed high lvl SKs til get get to 60 and get their last lifetap and would have annoyed the hell out of necros from 29-39 but they would still have other lifetaps.

Guess it was just easier to blanket nerf all the lifetaps?

[RIP The Jacka]

Such a shame, too. Sure seems like just removing the click from the hoop and leaving lifetap resists alone would have been a much better way to handle the problem.

Lol who ever made it a global life tap resist...

[Daldaen]

I wonder if there was a patch message. I recall discussion of the +6 level thing, can't recall if it was started by a patch message tho (I started playing live in July of '99).

Necromancer Class Forum 2001 (https://web.archive.org/web/20010512181443/http://necro.eqclasses.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4691&FORUM_ID=1&CAT_ID=1&Topic_Title=thoughts+after+a+sucessfull+CT+raid&Forum_Title=General+Discussions)

Hehe man, it's so weird beiing a necro. At level 56 I was nearly useless on cazic thule, I used my dinky 49 pet and mana dumped to the clerics. This time around, at 57, the "magical number" was crossed and I could land spells on him. I hit him with 6x splurt (1600 a pop) 5x vexing mordania (1000 a pop) and about 2k in defluxes (plus a lil pet healing and lum/trox healing) for like 15-18k damage with pet. my group easily got exp (had a 57 wiz too, nobody died)
heh level caps are stupid.

now heres my off topic necro rant. i've been getting in some trouble lately cause I've been playing steps too much, the reason beeing frustration stemming from the same issues as Xargyn, playing a class Verant is so paranoid of overpowering they leave broken. On basically any dragon I'm 33% useless. With 2 necroes there I'm 17% useless. I just DMF and give 1/3 of a mana bar to a cleric. On basically every Uber mob in the game (excpet CT and INNY) 99% of necro spells are resisted, the exception being the ocassional pyrocuror that can stick and do all of 200 damage. Now lets look at spells left for me as I level up:

56 he was useless against Cazic-Thule (post-update who is level 65?... 9 level spread?). But at 57 he was fine.

[Nirgon]

I'd like to see more about life tap partials or lure partials tbqh

There are reports of this happening on the ice well guards, like they'd resist 1/3 of the siphon strengths you cast on them

Lifetap and lure partials I'm getting NOTHING in my digging and I always remembered them doing full or not working at all pre Luclin

[Smedy]

there's no such thing as a lifetap partial, all or nothing

[Daldaen]

there's no such thing as a lifetap partial, all or nothing

1 Month into Velious Patch (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010109.html)

'Harmtouch' is now resisted as if it were a 'Lifetap' spell, meaning that it is all-or-nothing, and nearly unresistable with exception to encounters that are immune to magic or out of the acceptable level range. In addition, maximum damage for Harmtouch has been increased starting at 40th level.

Lifetaps confirmed all or nothing and unresistable unless mob is completely MR or out of "acceptable range".

Time to determine what the level range exactly was...

[Nirgon]

there's no such thing as a lifetap partial, all or nothing

Yeah shouldn't be

And yet I'm told they happen here

Haven't seen one myself tho

[Xadion]

This needs to be fixed... trakanon is no longer a reason to nerf lifetaps - no one is going to ivy hoop it anymore....

SK's and Necros need their lifetaps back to classic, and HT - enough evidence and patch notes have been posted for YEARS that show its classic resists etc. etc.

[Solist]

They could have added a 3 second cast time to ivandyrs at the time and not affected anything at all.

[Rygar]

So... just want to add to some discussion on the 6+ level rule. It is actually only a half truth, it is really 1.3x your level OR +6 levels (whichever is higher) where mobs get near perfect immunity. I personally think original devs shit the bed on this and had a real hard on for gimping casters with weak justification for not limiting melee.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021014193220/http://boards.station.sony.com:80/ubb/everquest/Forum1/HTML/000511.html
7) Why is there a 6 level limit for what a caster can land spells on, but no apparent cap exists for melee? –Eandori

A) There isn't really a six level limit. Here's how it works: There is a level limit for spell effects that has a minimum of six levels. A spell will not affect an NPC that is more than 1.3 times your level, or 6 levels higher, which ever is greater. So at 15th level it's 6 levels. At 40th it's 12 levels. Now, how often is a 40th level warrior going to actually hit while attacking a 53rd level NPC?
Well dude, most would argue that level 40 warrior can hit the 53rd mob for a hell of a lot more damage than a level 40 wizard. But I digress...

Here are some dated mentions of this rule in place:
8/23/00: (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/_6Xp9i7aiyY/fB4rlS7xoqQJ;context-place=searchin/alt.games.everquest/spell$20resist$20level%7Csort:date)
Are they red to you? It's possible that they are above the
5 (or is it 6) level span that you can affect with spells.

In oasis, at 15 my shaman couldn't land *any* spells on
a level 20-21 'A' orc warrior. At 16, suddenly, my slow
and poison spells were working (and T'ing them off
royally too :)

5/8/01 (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/npXklYA-9j4/GVnHrBE270QJ;context-place=searchin/alt.games.everquest/spell$20resist$20level%7Csort:date)
Mobs that are higher in level will incrementally have higher resistances.
Mobs more than 6 levels higher than you will resist about 100% of your
spells. If in doubt, cast Lifetap first. If it resists Lifetap, it will
resist just about any other attack spell you cast on it.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/eqdruids24038/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5342&p=50886
11/18/2002
If you really want some excitement, kill the named Giant, with the last name Bluehammer. (I would wait until 31 though...according to Allakhazam's, he can be up to 37, and you don't want to be caught by the 6-level rule)

6/21/00 (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/NpaPyuOQ-Vc/UyIZUupBrJYJ;context-place=forum/alt.games.everquest)
I've always wondered; is Harmony restricted by the 6 level rule? In
other words, can you harmony mobs that are more than 6 levels higher
than you?
Harmony is considered a non-offensive spell, therefore the 6 level
rule doesn't apply.
>Harmony can fail. The difference is that the mob doesn't aggro when
>it does.
I've never seen it fail on a mob less than 5 - 6 levels above you.
You are incorrect. Harmony never fails. In fact, it works on 100% resistant
critters (Black Reavers in City of Mist). I also suspect that the 6 level
restiction doesn't apply.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=3501&p=2
Mar 22 2000
Vangor, time to buy a clue. The level casting cap does exist. Make a level one, go cast on a guard or young kodiak. Notice that you get resisted every time. If a mob is either 6+ levels above you, or 120%+ of your level, his resist rate to you is approximately 99.999%. I play a level 50 enchanter, I know this for a fact.

At level 50, I can affect mobs up to level 60. And you want to know something? Dojorn sheds spells from mere level 50's like a duck does water. The way he is killed is that a group throws a bunch of tanks at him while the healers try to keep up with the damage he's causing.

Mar 03 2000
It is not a hard six level limit but a percentage of your current level that you may cast above. GZ has stated this several times. So yes at level one you will not even be able to go up 6 levels pobly, but at 50 since that percentage is much higher you could potentially go up the 13 levels nessasary to get a few spells off on him. ShowEQ is right, and there is no use argueing about it since it is pretty much proof.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=3501&p=3#comments
Feb 28 2000
Hey Anon, um... the lvl 6 thing you said was wrong because I started helping my guild hunt Allizewsaur at lvl 42 and he is lvl 50. I could lifedraw without Tash on him and when tashed I could sometimes get fear, darkness, scourge, and VOS off on him. So your little thing about lvl 6 is wrong.

Feb 26 2000
I happen to know for a fact that the game is set up so that any mob exactly 6 levels higher than you will resist every spell you cast on them. Not CT, not Innoruk, not Nagafin, noone is higher than level 55. I also have inside GM information on this. Try it once, make a level 1 character and try to cast on a skeliton, it wont work, I dont care if its tashened to have -500magic sv u CANT CAST ON IT lol.

So there I have at the very earliest found a February 26, 2000 mention of this rule in place. So that level 56 necro that Daldaen linked about not being able to land on CT is either bogus (some guy talking smack about raiding CT), thought CT was too high and that he could only land at level 57 and really didn't try at 56, CT is level 73, or the formula given is wrong.

There's mention of GZ giving interviews on a percentage, comments of a level 42 landing on a level 50 mob (possible), and lower level mentions of 6 level limit (so def feel that necro post is inaccurate). There was a mention of 120% instead of 130%, so maybe it is possible GZ tuned this over time behind the scenes, but who knows the truth... lost to the sands of time.

But back on topic... I think the Hoop nerf is indeed a bit dated. I think an accurate solution would be to simply add a 3-5 second casting time while also preventing recharge. This would prevent zerging and not affect the spell when cast by players in any way.

Or, go further down the rabbit hole. Nerf mallets to race/class usable only, remove vendor buyback from Bladestopper, Puppet Strings, Prayers, and Spider Silk Nets (and any other agro management clickie). That would certainly make the experience more classic in nature, those tactics were not known by the widespread masses and only serve to bastardize and trivialize end game encounters further.

[Dolalin]

There's some sort of veto squad amongst Rogean/Nilbog/etc that game mechanics changes like this would have to pass through. I wouldn't get my hopes up but who knows.

[Xadion]

Bumping this thread, will bump alll of others in discussion of this and HT + unholy disc info if needed.

Lifetaps should be returned to classic, to how they SHOULD be and to how they should have been for YEARS on this "classic" server.

Lifetaps and unholy disc HT are practically useless right now - there have been posts and posts of evidence and other material showing how it should be - yet EQ's own patch notes have been disregarded for years here, why?

This needs to be fixed and put in with the later half of the patch we got- it will truely fix knights and necros then.

[drelk001]

All for that whole "Not Classic"

Yeah... Let's do this... Bring back old Lifetaps.

[Pyrocat]

bump

[DMN]

if they don't change taps they should at least change the hoop to be rechargeable. Nerf recharge on something you already nerfed the effect of?

[Nirgon]

Put a spell with the same name as spirit tap on the hoop and make the raid mobs immune to it if you have to prevent it

Better idea is end the non classic item experience of all this item recharging

[Dolalin]

I do think this is a higher impact fix than needed to be done. Nerfing this one item should ideally involve a change only to the one item: change its effect to a new spell that is resistable, and move necro/sk taps back to what they were (unless there's some other issue with them that I'm not aware of).

[Dolalin]

I'm fact, after the lifetap nerf in Fall of 1999 (to stop groups of level 20 necros from taking down Hill Giants), necro lifetaps wouldn't land on dragons, at least into late Velious, since they were all 100% magic immune to prevent them being slowed. At least this is my impression from reading newsgroups.

So maybe the real problem here is that lifetap lands on dragons at all.


11/9/99

The problem with the lifedrain nerf is that it is an all-or-nothing
resist. Also, the life drain's resist rate has a much narrower range
of levels affected as opposed to ice comet at upper levels.

Here's an example: Several L50 necromancers complained that they could
no longer land a single spell on Lord Nagafen even when standing under
his belly. One L50 necro was 0 for 12 with the L49 drain in a row,
which is utterly ridiculous. However, other caster (druids, wizards,
magician, etc.) were casting at normal effectiveness, with some spells
landing or partially resisted. One druid had all spells land without a
single resist.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/BK14rlB9KxE/rlqoQrC6tBQJ