Whats up with all those lazy clerics ?

[Diogene]

Just wanted to share my opinion on this one and possibly gather different opinions

I play enchanter on blue and when I happen to see a cleric in the group, the dude only seems to know one thing : HEALING. Once he is done with that, he simply goes afk, sitting medding, maybe eating burritos. I mean, its pretty rare I get buffs from cleric groupmates as a chanter, and when my charm breaks, I never see any of them trying to stun / root the pet. They act like they were born to HEAL ONLY (maybe rez once in a while).

I remember that Paladin a little while ago : the guy was pulling, CC'ing, tanking, stunning my charm breaks and healing all at the same time. The Pally was truly awesome as he knew how to play his class.

So what the f*ck is wrong is clerics ?

Just... bad luck ?

Oh, yes... I forgot I should have ask em before if they could do a little more than just healing via PM... But I did! And I got this answer from a fellow cleric : I cant CC your freakin pet man, Im busy medding in case tanks are going bad.

I should aslo mention I have all sorts of macros including a "CHARM BREAK" one to let everyone know when this happens

/sigh

[Cecily]

Hey those burritos aren't gonna eat themselves.

[ko37qtl]

I took a break from here but I have to say I noticed the same thing last time I played. I had to ask for buffs from most clerics as an enchanter (not symbols, just HP/AC) and I didn't really have the feeling they had my back in the same way I was used to. Maybe it's just bad luck on my part. I'm sure there are still many excellent clerics out there.

[Swish]

I rarely play my blue cleric anymore but I was always watching, rooting, ghetto CC'ing (stunning a 2nd inc mob and rooting it away from the first).

Plenty of things a cleric can do, especially with no enchanter in a group.

[Clark]

maybe eating burritos

I think you just discovered fat lazy peoples new favorite class.







God help us all.....

[mr_jon3s]

Its a boring class that breeds laziness. As an enchanter you have to be focused at all times while playing. As a cleric in a good group you just have to have sound up a bit and check the window to make sure no one died while you were browsing reddit or facebook.

[pharmakos]

they're probably just playing their blue cleric as an alt while mainly focusing on their red character

[Harbogast]

I also notice that there's some clerics who suck badly, and they get annoyed when you tell them so. When I play my 60 clr everyone gets full buffs. However rooting and stunning as a cleric is a bad idea, you are just wasting your mana.

[Burrito]

Hey those burritos aren't gonna eat themselves.

Hah...

[Fregar]

It's pretty much the classic way to play a cleric... (unlike enchanters using pets)
Not buffing HP/AC is unacceptable though.

I guess paladins try harder because they feel like they need to justify the exp penalty, or maybe the one you're talking about is a hard worker and pushes all his chars to the maximum.

[Xer0]

I learned to be lazy by playing a cleric. When I first started playing him I was all about nuking, rooting, stunning, str buffing and even meleeing some. But then my playstyle started getting people killed. All that time not spent sitting waiting to expend mana on heals will really bend you over if things unexpectedly hit the fan.

Don't get me wrong, I root often, because it's a low mana cost spell that has a huge impact, and I understand the value of knocking down somethings HP more quickly to save time/HP lost.. but I certainly feel that's better left to the other classes that specialize in those areas

As far as HP/AC buffs go I am guilty of letting people go without them, but for the most part I only feel obligated to buff the tank and any class ike necro/shaman that reduce their hp for the benefit of the group.

I also do not hp/ac buff myself, so I often forget the buffs when they wear off. The moment anyone tells me they'd like an ac/hp buff I am on it as soon as mana permits.

[ArumTP]

Hey man I'm all busy windowed out watching netflix waiting my time for a complete heal. Stop charming stuff you never have good control of.

[Ravager]

It is an insanely boring class to play and hard to stay focused, especially when half your time in the group is spent trying to line up a rep since you don't want to piss people off when you have to leave.

But keeping the enchanter alive is the most important job. Tank dies? Big deal, you rez him and get back to work. CC dies? Have fun CRing that wipe.

[Speedi]

However rooting and stunning as a cleric is a bad idea, you are just wasting your mana.

I root when needed when I play my cleric (enchie is overwhelmed, or just dont have a enchie) I also stun enchie pets too, rather be fast with a stun than waste 350 mana using DL on them. Low lvl stun is next to no mana FYI, and its a very fast cast. Stun is also great for duo with a enchie. After u stun the pet break, once it wears off you got full aggro. So you tank the pet so enchie can recharm. Instead of enchie getting interrupted trying to recharm.

As for the OP, yea you right. Most are lazy as hell

[Mentathiel]

As someone with an enchanter alt, I would point out that charm is a dangerous spell if you are using it recklessly. I've been in groups (as a rogue) where the enchanter was losing control of their pets every ten seconds and ones where the pet lasted 15-20 minutes without needing to be re-charmed. The difference was the level of the mob; lower-level mobs stay charmed longer and are easier to re-charm, root, mez or just kill. Yes, you lose a little DPS and they might die faster if they end up tanking, but at least you are not constantly dealing with your own former pet instead of focusing on the fight.

The cleric's job is to keep you alive though. If they want to offer advice, if they want to bitch about your poor choice of pets, that's fine. As long as they keep you alive, as long as they are paying attention to the fight and choosing how/when to intervene, they can curse your entire bloodline for all I care.

What you do not want is the cleric and enchanter screaming at each other in /gsay about how the other doesn't know how to play their class.

[Harbogast]

I also stun enchie pets too

You are correct that this works, but only because we are playing eqclassic where mobs don't hit for anything and are completely trivial. You could also run around in circles every time pet breaks with like a 99% success rate. When you are playing in a more difficult expansion and a charm pet breaks, the cleric immediately casts heal on the enchanter and the enc stuns the mob himself, then casts a short duration mez, and recharms. That's everquest 101. But we are not in a more difficult expansion so I concede that cleric stunning is a valid strategy.

[Diogene]

Speaking chanters job... Hand picked pets are better. I usually know what Im charming, and I dont necessary charm ALL the time, it just depends on mobs avail and group comp, but of course generally speaking if the chanter is constantly recharming, it can be annoying...
However I do feel as a chanter a certain lack of consideration (specially from Clerics), as we should be treated a lil better... I might be a whinner or whatever my thread suggests, but if "sitting your butt till next CH" is all clerics are supposed to do for the sake of min maxxing, then there is something wrong with the game. IMO

[fadetree]

But keeping the enchanter alive is the most important job.

This is true, and its one of the roles a Ranger can help with. When I'm in a group with a chanter or a cleric, my #1 job is to peel mobs off their asses, move them off, and root or prox park them. between flame lick, snare, and heal spam I can peel pretty fast. Yes, they can root and move off themselves, but it takes valuable time away from them, and in a situation where they NEED to have something peeled from them, things are usually going bad and they are very very busy.

[Kreylyn]

I'm gonna start with some basic info to use as a reference.

A lv 40 cleric with pretty decent gear (read, NOT twinked) is what I'm baseing this info around.

219 wis + gear = mana pool of 1735.

Valor = 90 mana
Symb of Pin = 200 mana
Armor of Faith = 150 mana.

Buff just those on one char = 440 mana (not counting the lost regen from cast times). That's 25% of the mana pool.

Regen of 16 mana with out chanter buff... around (21 mana with) per 6 second tick. Lets say (since OP is chanter) that C1 is buffed on the lv 40 cleric...

440 mana at 21 regen rate = 21 ticks for full mana recover per, or 2 mins 6 sec. Lets just round that to 2 mins cause.... maths hard.

6 players, buff you self first because that's how you set a good timer right?

Buff yourself (25%), buff the chanter (25%) and buff the Tank (25%).... Now you have 25% mana left for the pull, and half the group still left to buff, and need straight 6 mins to med it back.

Complete heal = 400 mana.
Sup heal = 250 mana.
Greater heal = 150 mana.

So a pull comes in after your buff, you had 30 seconds after buffs before your first heal to be cast due to the pull...

Mana pool = aprox 500 with regen.

You currently have the option of...

1 complete heal leaving you with 100 mana... You will not cast another heal with out regening mana. You could cast 1 root at 60 mana, or... you could save that for a heal. What do you do... hrm?

2 Sup heals for 583 hps leaving you with 0 mana... OOM.

3 Forget healing, lets crowd control with the mana you have left.

Lets just say the cleric was "lazy"... and healed only... with option 2.


Fight is over, group wants to pull. You have 30 sec - 1 min before next pull comes in.

You regen 210 mana... . That's not even 1 sup heal.

Chanter gets agro from resist.

Chanter can't stun, root, CC their own mob.

Cleric has to heal.

Tank has taken dmg too... but you can only cast 1 heal on one character.

You regen just enough to cast Sup heal on chanter, finish fight with tank at 30%, chanter alive, mobs dead... cleric OOM.

8.5 mins now for full mana regen. 15 mins now for full mana regen and you buffed the other 3 chars... cuase you dont' want to be a lazy cleric right?

Are you gonna sit and wait for 15 mins for full regen? How many groups do you know that's up for that kind of down time?

So what really happens?

I join a group, I ask... "Any cleric or other buffs I need to know before I start buffing?"

If nothing that is better, or already on... I'll buff the quick... Valor on everyone. AC on those I know who will get hit (tank, cc, puller).

Symbol... is reserved for situational consideration. If the chanter is under level... I'll buff it. If the tank is taking a lot of dmg, I'll buff it. If we are having problems with proper CC and someone is off tanking, I'll buff em. Everyone in the group is not getting symbol unless there is a good reason for it. It's not lazy, it's simply mana conservation for being able to function as anything else in the group.

As an aside, if your not supposed to get hit, you should control your agro so you don't need symbol. (I'm talking dps or other non cc/tanking players). I will heal you to start, and I will communicate to you that you need to stop what your doing to draw agro. Then.. I will stop healing you. One way or another, people who are not supposed to get agro will learn. Death is a good teacher.

First pull immediately after buffing the basics, and I'm generally at 30-40% mana already. The next hour is fighting mana regen vs heals cast for pulls to get back towards 100%... so that when buffs wear off, I can recast them taking up nearly a full mana bar.

2 sup heals or 1 CH and I'm OOm for heals on that first pull.

Or... the entire group waits for regen.

I have a hotkey... "%t rooted, step away!" I use it when asked. Otherwise, my expectation is that the CC in the group know what they are doing, and can do THIER job or can communicate to the group what they need.... Jus sayn.

Can I do CC... sure. If there are other healers in the group, and mana regen ins't as important cause heals are covered, buffs are covered, then... I'll use other things. Stuns, roots, even DD cause why not... you can only hit 100% mana regen, you can't bank extra. I never just sit when 100% mana.

But when there IS a CC in the group... yeah, this lazy cleric expects you to do your jerb. If you CAN'T do your jerb, then at least communicate clearly what you need help with and why. Otherwise, until I'm 100% mana... I'm medn to prepare for that next heal. Cause... that is what a cleric does.

But... that's just my take. I'm sure others will have their own.

Krey

[harnold]

When i play a cleric and I don't buff or help the enchanter my groups still prevail so i see no reason having to spend the extra energy on a needy enchanter. Learn to play your class better

[Duncon]

So what really happens?

I join a group, I ask... "Any cleric or other buffs I need to know before I start buffing?"

If nothing that is better, or already on... I'll buff the quick... Valor on everyone. AC on those I know who will get hit (tank, cc, puller).

So you're not the lazy cleric he is talking about, you keep yer buffs up, etc. Good man.

[Paleman]

some people think this is how you "should" play. Furthermore, sometimes clerics get scolded for dpsing/rooting when they do it in a group. In fact I dont think i have ever been to a server like p99 where everyone had "advice" on how to play your class. STFU and do your job if you don't like it give them the boot or disband.

[Laugher]

"All a cleric needs to level is a subscription to Netflix"

-words of wisdom from master cleric Grundwald

[Feanol]

Firstly, Paladins always make a spectacle of themselves casting everything they can. This stems from a well documented need for hybrid classes to overachieve and prove their utility as to distract the group from the fact that they eat an extra big slice of that EXP cake.

Secondly, the sure sign of a good cleric is that they remain inert. The Cleric isn't there to impress you or deal damage or even CC. The cleric is there to meditate to 100% mana and prepare for the worst. The sure sign of a bad cleric is one who's missing meditate ticks by standing to cast spells and burning mana putting HP buffs on casters.

When things get hairy, the "lazy" cleric saves the group. The "active" cleric is responsible for a full wipe since he's 50m after that last Heroic Bond for the freaking Magician...

[Kagey]

Also... Down with afk wizys. Will always prefer a rogue over them in exp since they like to do nothing after 30 mins of being in a group.

[Mentathiel]

The sure sign of a bad cleric is one who's missing meditate ticks by standing to cast spells and burning mana putting HP buffs on casters.
I have seen parties which would have wiped if the cleric / druid had not insisted on making sure everyone's HP/AC was buffed. On the other hand, as a rogue, I only ever request STR / haste buffs and even feel a little funny asking for SoW.

It's a question of priorities; in a party where the casters get bashed about a bit, maybe it is worth giving them a couple of AC buffs. We all know the enchanter will get aggro first, so anything which keeps them alive while they re-charm / re-mezz (at least for that brief period between break and root) must have some value.

[Tuljin]

When things get hairy, the "lazy" cleric saves the group. The "active" cleric is responsible for a full wipe since he's 50m after that last Heroic Bond for the freaking Magician...

Really, the "lazy" cleric is killing the group because all night the tank has been clinching their butthole waiting for CH and the "lazy" cleric also lets his mid-50 tanks hang around 30% HP vs. a Krup wizard that will kill him in one shot. Cleric is never responsible for a full wipe, and one heal won't save a full wipe. A "full" wipe is usually due to a shitshow where multiple parties are to blame.

Also, each party member SHOULD have Heroic Bond because its a level 52 group spell. INT casters should have HP buffs as well, and in this thread there have been many Enchanters who complain that they are never even considered for HP buffs when they should be first in line. The single target Heroism is only 140 mana too, and we all know Clerics crank their wisdom. They have PLENTY of mana.

Root/Stun cost no mana - and a well placed Stun on a broken ENC charm is waaaay less mana than what you'd have to spend healing him. It also affords a better chance of him actually landing the spell rather than him continuing to get hit, risking the chance of an interrupt and LOSING the HP you spent your mana on trying to heal him.

I really don't know ~who~ plays Everquest constantly at 100% mana. I really can't wrap my brain around how that would work. 50% mana should be plenty for a Cleric to keep his group up on any pull that isn't a horrible and complete nightmare. Everyone is making it sound like 3K mana isn't enough to cast CH once every several mobs and have room in your pool to cast other spells that only cost 30 mana. *shrug*

[Ele]

You haven't seen lazy until the cleric get Donal's BP; they only have to press 1 button every 20 seconds.

[Cecily]

The "active" cleric is responsible for a full wipe since he's 50m after that last Heroic Bond for the freaking Magician...

That made me giggle, thank you.

[Ele]

The single target Heroism is only 140 mana too, and we all know Clerics crank their wisdom.

wisdom isn't the only thing! :eek:

[perditionparty]

I'm gonna start with some basic info to use as a reference.

A lv 40 cleric with pretty decent gear (read, NOT twinked) is what I'm baseing this info around.

219 wis + gear = mana pool of 1735.

Valor = 90 mana
Symb of Pin = 200 mana
Armor of Faith = 150 mana.

Buff just those on one char = 440 mana (not counting the lost regen from cast times). That's 25% of the mana pool.

Regen of 16 mana with out chanter buff... around (21 mana with) per 6 second tick. Lets say (since OP is chanter) that C1 is buffed on the lv 40 cleric...

440 mana at 21 regen rate = 21 ticks for full mana recover per, or 2 mins 6 sec. Lets just round that to 2 mins cause.... maths hard.

6 players, buff you self first because that's how you set a good timer right?

Buff yourself (25%), buff the chanter (25%) and buff the Tank (25%).... Now you have 25% mana left for the pull, and half the group still left to buff, and need straight 6 mins to med it back.

Complete heal = 400 mana.
Sup heal = 250 mana.
Greater heal = 150 mana.

So a pull comes in after your buff, you had 30 seconds after buffs before your first heal to be cast due to the pull...

Mana pool = aprox 500 with regen.

You currently have the option of...

1 complete heal leaving you with 100 mana... You will not cast another heal with out regening mana. You could cast 1 root at 60 mana, or... you could save that for a heal. What do you do... hrm?

2 Sup heals for 583 hps leaving you with 0 mana... OOM.

3 Forget healing, lets crowd control with the mana you have left.

Lets just say the cleric was "lazy"... and healed only... with option 2.


Fight is over, group wants to pull. You have 30 sec - 1 min before next pull comes in.

You regen 210 mana... . That's not even 1 sup heal.

Chanter gets agro from resist.

Chanter can't stun, root, CC their own mob.

Cleric has to heal.

Tank has taken dmg too... but you can only cast 1 heal on one character.

You regen just enough to cast Sup heal on chanter, finish fight with tank at 30%, chanter alive, mobs dead... cleric OOM.

8.5 mins now for full mana regen. 15 mins now for full mana regen and you buffed the other 3 chars... cuase you dont' want to be a lazy cleric right?

Are you gonna sit and wait for 15 mins for full regen? How many groups do you know that's up for that kind of down time?

So what really happens?

I join a group, I ask... "Any cleric or other buffs I need to know before I start buffing?"

If nothing that is better, or already on... I'll buff the quick... Valor on everyone. AC on those I know who will get hit (tank, cc, puller).

Symbol... is reserved for situational consideration. If the chanter is under level... I'll buff it. If the tank is taking a lot of dmg, I'll buff it. If we are having problems with proper CC and someone is off tanking, I'll buff em. Everyone in the group is not getting symbol unless there is a good reason for it. It's not lazy, it's simply mana conservation for being able to function as anything else in the group.

As an aside, if your not supposed to get hit, you should control your agro so you don't need symbol. (I'm talking dps or other non cc/tanking players). I will heal you to start, and I will communicate to you that you need to stop what your doing to draw agro. Then.. I will stop healing you. One way or another, people who are not supposed to get agro will learn. Death is a good teacher.

First pull immediately after buffing the basics, and I'm generally at 30-40% mana already. The next hour is fighting mana regen vs heals cast for pulls to get back towards 100%... so that when buffs wear off, I can recast them taking up nearly a full mana bar.

2 sup heals or 1 CH and I'm OOm for heals on that first pull.

Or... the entire group waits for regen.

I have a hotkey... "%t rooted, step away!" I use it when asked. Otherwise, my expectation is that the CC in the group know what they are doing, and can do THIER job or can communicate to the group what they need.... Jus sayn.

Can I do CC... sure. If there are other healers in the group, and mana regen ins't as important cause heals are covered, buffs are covered, then... I'll use other things. Stuns, roots, even DD cause why not... you can only hit 100% mana regen, you can't bank extra. I never just sit when 100% mana.

But when there IS a CC in the group... yeah, this lazy cleric expects you to do your jerb. If you CAN'T do your jerb, then at least communicate clearly what you need help with and why. Otherwise, until I'm 100% mana... I'm medn to prepare for that next heal. Cause... that is what a cleric does.

But... that's just my take. I'm sure others will have their own.

Krey

Excellent write up

[criddopher]

Just wanted to share my opinion on this one and possibly gather different opinions

I play enchanter on blue and when I happen to see a cleric in the group, the dude only seems to know one thing : HEALING. Once he is done with that, he simply goes afk, sitting medding, maybe eating burritos. I mean, its pretty rare I get buffs from cleric groupmates as a chanter, and when my charm breaks, I never see any of them trying to stun / root the pet. They act like they were born to HEAL ONLY (maybe rez once in a while).

I remember that Paladin a little while ago : the guy was pulling, CC'ing, tanking, stunning my charm breaks and healing all at the same time. The Pally was truly awesome as he knew how to play his class.

So what the f*ck is wrong is clerics ?

Just... bad luck ?

Oh, yes... I forgot I should have ask em before if they could do a little more than just healing via PM... But I did! And I got this answer from a fellow cleric : I cant CC your freakin pet man, Im busy medding in case tanks are going bad.

I should aslo mention I have all sorts of macros including a "CHARM BREAK" one to let everyone know when this happens

/sigh


In defense of the clerics, often times, unless everyone in the group plays their class well, it's tough to have mana to do the extra things. Although even in the worst case the chanters getting both hp buffs in my grp.. Enchanter is just as important as the tank in most cases.

If the group is running well,and youre not OOM all the time then yeah, cleric should be stunning, nuking, swinging his mace, whatever else to help.

[-TK-]

There's lazy people playing every class, but because of the Cleric's role they probably seem so more often because it encourages a 'lazy' behavior. That being said I don't care what the excuse is, the Enchanter should always have Hero or the like. If the Cleric won't give me Hero or whines about it, he'll be replaced quickly as I usually make my groups. I generally don't ask for Symbol unless I'm really getting beat on and I make sure to offer a Peridot in return as even if they refuse to accept it they usually appreciate the gesture (and you should have plenty of these on you already - I carry a minimum 4 stacks before going out for a grouping session).

Usually by the time charm breaks I'm ready with stun and have Rune and Bedlam up. As far as Clerics rooting and stunning, I rarely find it necessary to have anyone root/stun for me while using global cooldown reset. And I'd prefer that the Cleric focuses on healing me through resists/breaks than messing around with my pet or adds. I also keep Rune on my Clerics as well for when shit hits the fan during a charm break or they get heal aggro from trying to keep me up.

A lot of this of course depends on your level and group configuration and in my experience a Cleric will give you a buff if you ask and he's not constantly out of mana. Every scenario will be different but there are some minimums that should be expected such as Hero or the like. If you're Cleric is sitting constantly full mana (Donal's?) and gives you grief about a buff then you really need to replace or just remember in the future not to group with them (/note). Mages and Wizards shouldn't really need any HP buff but if a Cleric argues that an active Enchanter doesn't then they are ignorant plain and simple. Chances are that if a situation turns bad with multiple mobs and your Enchanter goes down and the other group members aren't quick enough or able to sort it out, you're going to wipe.

As far as the comments go about charming and charm breaks, people on this server are charm-crazy. If you don't have a charmed pet in a group you're a 'bad Enchanter'. People expect it constantly, which I think is fair in most cases, but they don't understand exactly how it works or care that you're mezzing, rooting, casting C & E, and hasting. Just because I'm 60 and charming a level 46 mob, while I have max CHA, there is a still a chance that charm will break sooner than 10-20 minutes. And sometimes there are bad strings of breaks regardless of the mob's level. Some groups aren't patient for the 'right' mob to spawn to pet either or don't understand that you have to Paci half way through a dungeon to get a good pet if they aren't spawning in your area. As an Enchanter you learn the levels of the mobs and how reliable they are when charmed. Others might not know this information as illustrated by the tank pulling a Krup Wizard and saying 'take for pet'. They just know an Enchanter usually has a pet.

tl;dr: Ask by saying 'WMP'; when asking for Symbol put a Peridot in the trade window before they can reply and be conscience of their mana and the group's abilities/flow before asking. If Cleric is being lazy after all considerations, then either replace or make a /note to not group with again if possible. There's always going to be some bad apples out there and my experiences with 'bad' Clerics has been extremely limited.

[skipdog]

Firstly, Paladins always make a spectacle of themselves casting everything they can. This stems from a well documented need for hybrid classes to overachieve and prove their utility as to distract the group from the fact that they eat an extra big slice of that EXP cake.

Secondly, the sure sign of a good cleric is that they remain inert. The Cleric isn't there to impress you or deal damage or even CC. The cleric is there to meditate to 100% mana and prepare for the worst. The sure sign of a bad cleric is one who's missing meditate ticks by standing to cast spells and burning mana putting HP buffs on casters.

When things get hairy, the "lazy" cleric saves the group. The "active" cleric is responsible for a full wipe since he's 50m after that last Heroic Bond for the freaking Magician...

QFT. Was surprised how far I had to read before hearing some logic.

[QFuzzle]

I've encountered plenty of good clerics.

But there was this one time...

I main a Druid. I was grouped with a Cleric. The group was full and chain pulling. It was a good group. We were killing undead. Mana wasn't an issue. I was dps'ing for the most part. The Cleric kept the heals going, did fine on keeping buffs up, and did some cc management. I recommended he do a little undead nuking since he had spare mana. He told me he just doesn't do that. I was a little irked, asking why, and not receiving a response, but what can I do? I can't force somebody to play a certain way. :P He did well otherwise.

[kaev]

Can't understand why any cleric wouldn't put both hp buffs on an enchanter, the only reason to think about it is to ask the chanter first whether he's already got better than you can give and if so what're the timers.

There are a lot of attentive and well played enchanters on p99 (some terrible ones as well, ofc, but nearly all the bad ones seem to give up before L40,) It's rare that either my paladin or my cleric lands a stun before the chanter does on a pet break, OTOH it's not wasted mana to cast because when I do land mine first the chanter needs the help.

If you're not the puller, the tank, or CC not only do you not need an AC buff, in most groups you shouldn't need a HP buff (if your cleric is 52+ you'll get HB anyway.) AC buffs are a waste of mana on int casters, even when they're CC, making their tissuepaper "armor" a bit shinier does not change the fact that they're going to get smacked and smacked hard when a mob gets on them, stun and root will save them where an AC buff will do nothing.

Inattentive clerics are bad, and they should feel bad about themselves. It's not possible to be a competent anything in EQ without paying attention, but an inattentive cleric is a tank's worst nightmare.

That one rogue, you know, the one who never asks for any buffs except str & haste, the one who almost never gets hit and yet still murders the hell out of the mobs, yeah, that one... write his name down and invite him to your groups at every opportunity. Seriously people, how fucking difficult is it to let the tank get agro and/or wait for root before your first BS? why are you up on top of that rooted mob taking agro from the warrior? do you even evade bro? When stuck grouping with one of the 5000 or so "rouge with epic" idiots on this server, try to gently urge them not to be so bad by not healing them unless you're at full mana and have nothing better to do. (The good rogue, that one guy, he'll never be less than competent at any class because he pays attention. Learn who his alts are and put them all on your friend list,)

@OP:
In 3+ years I've only grouped with a few bad clerics here. When you find yourself grouped with one, first try to figure out if they just don't know better. Talk to them, be friendly rather than accusing and mix a bit of advice and/or some specific requests into the conversation. If that's well received you've probably made a new friend as well as improved the play of a groupmate, if they get hostile or rude just avoid them in future.

[Ravager]

I've encountered plenty of good clerics.

But there was this one time...

I main a Druid. I was grouped with a Cleric. The group was full and chain pulling. It was a good group. We were killing undead. Mana wasn't an issue. I was dps'ing for the most part. The Cleric kept the heals going, did fine on keeping buffs up, and did some cc management. I recommended he do a little undead nuking since he had spare mana. He told me he just doesn't do that. I was a little irked, asking why, and not receiving a response, but what can I do? I can't force somebody to play a certain way. :P He did well otherwise.

Sounds like he did his job. Mana is never an issue until you're out of it. If you're already chain pulling and the patch healer is already dpsing, how is having the cleric burn mana on nukes going to improve things? The mobs will die faster for a couple pulls and then the puller will pull faster and your healer will be oom before you know it, now everyone is waiting around for the cleric to med up.

[Rararboker]

Well I have never played a cleric until recently. Always played a tank on live (and then wizard here on p99) so I am familiar with the basics of what a cleric should do. I auto buff the tank-chanter and offer it to anyone else if they ask. Send them out in chunks so I don't go OOM just buffing my group of 5 all at once. I pretty much exclusively play the character with a RL friend who plays a chanter and he keeps a pet charmed at all times. I got the stun maneuver down for when charm breaks.

But I am wondering, are there any other little things I should know about playing a cleric?

[kaev]

Sounds like he did his job. Mana is never an issue until you're out of it. If you're already chain pulling and the patch healer is already dpsing, how is having the cleric burn mana on nukes going to improve things? The mobs will die faster for a couple pulls and then the puller will pull faster and your healer will be oom before you know it, now everyone is waiting around for the cleric to med up.

Yep, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Only time my cleric burns mana on nukes is solo/duo/trio vs. undead or the zone's camped to hell and back and the group just can't get enough mobs to use up my mana on heals.

[Zombiehasslehoff]

But I am wondering, are there any other little things I should know about playing a cleric?


One thing that few clerics seem to know is that you can heal with your hp buff and sometimes it's more efficient than regular heals . For example bravery heals 114hp for 70 mana, Healing heals for about 90hp by the time you get bravery for 60 mana.


The only problem with this is that it's hard to get good timer on the buff.

[feanan]

people asking for buffs they don't need is annoying.

no, mage/rogue/whatever I am not going to waste a 10pp dot and mana on you

[Juevento]

Heh, if a cleric doesn't give me the right symbol (naltrons mark is an abomination) or a shaman tries that group buff nonsense, I'm dumping them asap.

Best duo partner I've had as an enchanter has been a paladin. Dude was all over the place with heals, stuns, roots, etc. we were just crawling through Seb killing anything in our way. The guy was cognizant of stunning casters when the tried to slow my pet and stunning pet when he broke. The mana free stun they get is great in that regard.

[Tuljin]

I will say that AC buffs are for the most part a waste on casters, but with HB being a group spell there's no reason everybody in the group shouldn't have it. 400hp is a huge percentage added to an INT casters HP pool, and if you're in dangerous places you're going to get roughed up a bit. Enchanters should get symbol without question when they have a hasted pet that can waste them very quickly.

I don't know why it hasn't become standard etiquette for everybody to carry a stack of dots to give to Clerics for symbol. I will often ask for Symbol on Wizard but I always carry a stack of dots and give one (otherwise I probably wouldn't get it lol) Its useful for me because of my playstyle though I realize its an unusual request. Then again, when you're pulling casters that cast Ice Comet or up against a belly caster with an AOE 2700+ HP is nice :-)

[Zapatos]

Bad players, definitely not a bad class

Aside from maxing heal efficiency and keeping buffs up, a cleric can:
- Work crowd control with cheap or long lasting roots that won't break mez
- Throw in stuns for charm breaks, to interupt casts, stop runners, or simply prevent damage
- Nuke, duh
- Fear kite when paired with snares
- Pacify and/or help pull.. Can even solo pac through a dungeon
- Play battle cleric by tanking or hammering, if FM
- Reverse damage shield with MoK
- generate massive aggro with group heals/group CH for situational big plays
And more, depending on your clickies and creativity

Too bad the classic effect where DA would reset you to a single point of aggro isn't in, could make even bigger plays

[Diogene]

Lots of different views here. Interesting in many ways.
What I understand from some replies is : we (chanters and clerics) are playing on the opposite side of the gameplay spectrum. One is all busy and stressed out and need to be really attentive all the time and the other one is... well, eating burritos while watching HP's bars on and off ^^

Jokes aside, it is usually very hard to ask players if they can "change" their gameplay in a group. Most of the time these requests sound like "hey I'm gonna teach you how to play your class". Of course, if charming occur in a group, I can handle my breaks with rune and AOE stuns, but there are many cases where I prefer not to AOE stun, especially with mezzed mobs around in tight spaces (neither I like to land a root or mezz instead, cause usually I want my pet back in the action quickly...) And as someone pointed out, it can be alot more mana efficient if the cleric lands a little stun on the pet, instead of a greater heal. You know how soft chanties are. 2 rounds and we are already below 50% HPs. Lvl 5 Cleric Stuns lasts 4 sec, draggs aggro off the chanter, just about time to land another charm before cleric get hit by aggro (usually)

But I also understand everyone is free to think and play their class the way they want. Im not here to give lessons, just to gather point of views and possibly understand a bit better the mechanics behind these two classes (part of the classic EQ holy trinity !)

[Cecily]

Most people can't teach or aren't interested in trying. It's much easier to be passive aggressive and complain about how much people suck after the fact. Asking someone to do something might come off as aggressive and it's uncomfortable, but there's an off chance you might help someone improve their game. They might appreciate that. Worst case the person leaves. Best case they do what you asked. However negative or positive the suggestion is received is preferable to being miserable in a group with a terrible player.

[kaev]

I will say that AC buffs are for the most part a waste on casters, but with HB being a group spell there's no reason everybody in the group shouldn't have it. 400hp is a huge percentage added to an INT casters HP pool, and if you're in dangerous places you're going to get roughed up a bit. Enchanters should get symbol without question when they have a hasted pet that can waste them very quickly.

I don't know why it hasn't become standard etiquette for everybody to carry a stack of dots to give to Clerics for symbol. I will often ask for Symbol on Wizard but I always carry a stack of dots and give one (otherwise I probably wouldn't get it lol) Its useful for me because of my playstyle though I realize its an unusual request. Then again, when you're pulling casters that cast Ice Comet or up against a belly caster with an AOE 2700+ HP is nice :-)

I find it's the mana cost of symbol that's the issue, not the peridot. If the whole group wants symbol it's gonna take over half my manapool for that buff alone, pulls may have to be delayed, that just doesn't seem like a good plan I've never liked playing in groups where the cleric makes a big production of buffing the snot out of everybody and then having a 5-10 minute med break afterwards, repeating the process every time buffs expire, so I avoid doing it myself.

[Decad]

However I do feel as a chanter a certain lack of consideration (specially from Clerics), as we should be treated a lil better... I might be a whinner or whatever my thread suggests, but if "sitting your butt till next CH" is all clerics are supposed to do for the sake of min maxxing, then there is something wrong with the game. IMO

No offence nor personal but chanter is already one of the most OP classes in the game especially with Lull line being OP here. More often then not clerics rely on chanters to save their skin.

There is lots wrong with the game, class balances being the first and foremost which arent fixed until AA in Luclin/POP fixed them

And, playing a tank/cleric/enc/wiz, I have to say, as long as the cleric keeps the group alive. He can do anything he wants. If he helps more, great. But do not expect it. Apart from healing, expect the other 5 in group to do all the other jobs.

Welcome to Everquest.

[drktmplr12]

I find it's the mana cost of symbol that's the issue, not the peridot. If the whole group wants symbol it's gonna take over half my manapool for that buff alone, pulls may have to be delayed, that just doesn't seem like a good plan I've never liked playing in groups where the cleric makes a big production of buffing the snot out of everybody and then having a 5-10 minute med break afterwards, repeating the process every time buffs expire, so I avoid doing it myself.

i think most rational people feel that some situations call for someone to get symbol. i guess not everyone is situationally aware..or doesn't care about the game enough to engage themselves on that level.

Monk pulling for the group? Symbol

Tank? Symbol

Enchanter CCing? Symbol

Cleric Healing? Symbol

Monk DPSing? no.

DPS that's tanking because your MT sucks? symbol.

[karkaroth]

Isnt Ac broken here I know you still get somin outta it but recently iv stopped buffing it unless I was fm.

Anyway I have an idea for the OP you dont like how most of the clerics are playing then start douing with them A: the clerics are going to have more fun and B: there going to learn just how powerful/helpful there cc really is and C: Your both going to rok mad xp.

So ye stop being lazy and go out there and dou.



Baalaeron 51 cleric <Europa> - Lookin for chanter buds.

[Nuggie]

@OP some people have good days and bad days. I've had days where I'm 100% focused and doing "all" of the "extra" stuff. Things run smoothly. OTOH I've had days where my wife wants to converse (she doesn't understand) or whatever and I miss things. Sometimes you just can't get ahead and it's time to call it a day.

About the buffs: don't be a cheap ass. Maintain 8 stacks of peridots in your bags and that one or two extra for the squishy classes goes unnoticed. In the end the small expenses paid in gem costs gain you repoire. People will invite you to the next group.

Short cuts are the longest distances between two points. Not symboling an enchanter, one that is charming or not, is a short cut.

@the people in the thread: Lots of good advice/discussion here about different play styles. Good job.

[beyondinfin]

If you suspect your cleric is lazy then boot them. I leveled my 60 cleric, and I can tell you it's not about being lazy it's about having an available mana pool to SAVE THE GROUP. Maybe you've noticed EQ is a cruel mistress, and when things go bad (trains, adds, LDs etc) your cleric better have SOME mana saved up. Im not saying the cleric should never nuke, but you never know what is about to happen. Yes I spent lots of time sitting on my lazy cleric ass, but you better believe when those 3-4 adds come into camp all at once, Im not gonna be LOM if I can help it. Would you rather I sit, med and save mana for that worst case scenario or just nuke, cc and whatever else you expect despite the inevitable hour long, camp losing CR the group will have to do when Im OOM and things go bad? It is very situational how to manage your mana as a cleric, and Id say it is up to you to talk with your groups cleric to find that balance of safety, exp and mana.

Now if your cleric is late, slow, not responding to chat then that is a shitty cleric. A good cleric is engaging, not AFK or unresponsive, and willing to strategize with the puller/chanter/dps to make the group effective regardless of the situation. Good clerics are hard to find like good chanters. MAKE FRIENDS WITH THE GOOD ONES!

[Mistle]

If the cleric has mana to be screwing around with things like nukes the puller isn't doing HIS job. Maximum group efficiency doesn't come from the cleric using every utility tool in the spellbook. I keep the stun loaded for when it might matter, and root is there for mobs on either me or the enchanter (not the enchanter's own pet though, I will not root that unless it is absolutely murdering him). I symbol the tank for cheal efficiency and the enchanter for a buffer. Everyone else lives with hb.

And after that? I med. And the puller better be bringing mobs fast enough to make sure I CONTINUE to med. Adds are the enchanter's problem. DPS needs to manage its aggro. If either of them can't handle that to the point that I have to start putting brakes on pulls to maintain a safe mana level, then they are not doing their job. If I have fm too often then the puller is not doing HIS job (or we're in a lousy camp spot). So if the cleric is doing utility stuff? Either the cleric isn't managing their mana properly, or someone else isn't doing their job.

Duoing with an enchanter is a different story, of course.

[fadetree]

Melee peeling off mobs is usually a bad idea. You are probably breaking mez, and certainly decreasing the time the main mob takes to die. It might be required in some situations, but my ench gets pretty pissed at a 3 pull when the idiot ranger/ monk decides he just has to off-tank that 3rd mob that is hitting someone for the 8 seconds it takes me to get to it. And if it is 51+ it will now summon me, thanks guys.

The worst is when clerics are getting beat, and they either run around or just stand there bleating for help. Root is one of the most powerful spells in the game, and every character I've ever had with root never takes it off the spell bar.

You have got to be kidding. I'm not breaking mez, and I didn't say off tank. I know when to do it and when not to. Are you saying when you have two active mobs eating you because stun resist and two others in camp on tank and cleric you don't want me to snare one off of you and 'ranger mez' ( just stand there and keep snaring it, no dps ) or root park it? You'd rather I apply the 100DPS I can do before you go down?

[fishingme]

hp/ac group buff, should always be on. I can see not wanting to symbol an enchanter for two reasons, one of which they are good at enchanter class, two they keep their rune up. Sorry, but unless you're charming far out of your league mobs, you shouldn't be having a problem. A lot harder for a cleric to waste a peridot on an enchanter that doesn't play his class well. But honestly, if you didn't ever fall below 50% in the group then there isn't any reason to complain, just means the cleric is confident enough to be able to heal you before you die. You getting aggro from many many mezzes, then memblur

[Xer0]

repoire. .

The word you're looking for is "rapport"

play red server if you expect a cleric to remedy you the second your pet breaks

otherwise be happy with half afk clerics only watching tank health

lol red server

[mccraw5]

I'm gonna start with some basic info to use as a reference.

A lv 40 cleric with pretty decent gear (read, NOT twinked) is what I'm baseing this info around.

219 wis + gear = mana pool of 1735.

Valor = 90 mana
Symb of Pin = 200 mana
Armor of Faith = 150 mana.

Buff just those on one char = 440 mana (not counting the lost regen from cast times). That's 25% of the mana pool.

Regen of 16 mana with out chanter buff... around (21 mana with) per 6 second tick. Lets say (since OP is chanter) that C1 is buffed on the lv 40 cleric...

440 mana at 21 regen rate = 21 ticks for full mana recover per, or 2 mins 6 sec. Lets just round that to 2 mins cause.... maths hard.

6 players, buff you self first because that's how you set a good timer right?

Buff yourself (25%), buff the chanter (25%) and buff the Tank (25%).... Now you have 25% mana left for the pull, and half the group still left to buff, and need straight 6 mins to med it back.

Complete heal = 400 mana.
Sup heal = 250 mana.
Greater heal = 150 mana.

So a pull comes in after your buff, you had 30 seconds after buffs before your first heal to be cast due to the pull...

Mana pool = aprox 500 with regen.

You currently have the option of...

1 complete heal leaving you with 100 mana... You will not cast another heal with out regening mana. You could cast 1 root at 60 mana, or... you could save that for a heal. What do you do... hrm?

2 Sup heals for 583 hps leaving you with 0 mana... OOM.

3 Forget healing, lets crowd control with the mana you have left.

Lets just say the cleric was "lazy"... and healed only... with option 2.


Fight is over, group wants to pull. You have 30 sec - 1 min before next pull comes in.

You regen 210 mana... . That's not even 1 sup heal.

Chanter gets agro from resist.

Chanter can't stun, root, CC their own mob.

Cleric has to heal.

Tank has taken dmg too... but you can only cast 1 heal on one character.

You regen just enough to cast Sup heal on chanter, finish fight with tank at 30%, chanter alive, mobs dead... cleric OOM.

8.5 mins now for full mana regen. 15 mins now for full mana regen and you buffed the other 3 chars... cuase you dont' want to be a lazy cleric right?

Are you gonna sit and wait for 15 mins for full regen? How many groups do you know that's up for that kind of down time?

So what really happens?

I join a group, I ask... "Any cleric or other buffs I need to know before I start buffing?"

If nothing that is better, or already on... I'll buff the quick... Valor on everyone. AC on those I know who will get hit (tank, cc, puller).

Symbol... is reserved for situational consideration. If the chanter is under level... I'll buff it. If the tank is taking a lot of dmg, I'll buff it. If we are having problems with proper CC and someone is off tanking, I'll buff em. Everyone in the group is not getting symbol unless there is a good reason for it. It's not lazy, it's simply mana conservation for being able to function as anything else in the group.

As an aside, if your not supposed to get hit, you should control your agro so you don't need symbol. (I'm talking dps or other non cc/tanking players). I will heal you to start, and I will communicate to you that you need to stop what your doing to draw agro. Then.. I will stop healing you. One way or another, people who are not supposed to get agro will learn. Death is a good teacher.

First pull immediately after buffing the basics, and I'm generally at 30-40% mana already. The next hour is fighting mana regen vs heals cast for pulls to get back towards 100%... so that when buffs wear off, I can recast them taking up nearly a full mana bar.

2 sup heals or 1 CH and I'm OOm for heals on that first pull.

Or... the entire group waits for regen.

I have a hotkey... "%t rooted, step away!" I use it when asked. Otherwise, my expectation is that the CC in the group know what they are doing, and can do THIER job or can communicate to the group what they need.... Jus sayn.

Can I do CC... sure. If there are other healers in the group, and mana regen ins't as important cause heals are covered, buffs are covered, then... I'll use other things. Stuns, roots, even DD cause why not... you can only hit 100% mana regen, you can't bank extra. I never just sit when 100% mana.

But when there IS a CC in the group... yeah, this lazy cleric expects you to do your jerb. If you CAN'T do your jerb, then at least communicate clearly what you need help with and why. Otherwise, until I'm 100% mana... I'm medn to prepare for that next heal. Cause... that is what a cleric does.

But... that's just my take. I'm sure others will have their own.

Krey


Two thoughts. One: Krey doing a write up on behalf of clerics in response to a chanter cracks me up. Mainly because Krey was an enchanter on live for many, many years. If you see him group with him. He may still have a soft spot in his heart for the chanter and buff/heal you. Two: Clerics are the most boxed chars of all time because there are never enough when grouping/raiding. Now that we are all on a server where boxing is not permitted, I'm ecstatic people play a cleric at all. We need more because I personally can't ever remember thinking "Wow, we have too many clerics in our guild and need to kick some out". Just remember everyone will have their own playstyle regarding their class. Of course if the cleric lets me die........then he's just a lazy sob.

Villkain

[webrunner5]

To the OP, sounds like you NEED to be a better Enchanter. You have a Role in the group, a Cleric has a Role in the group. Chanter Mezzes, Cleric Heals. Pretty straight forward.

A Cleric has to be on their ass to Med, not buff the crap out of every person in the group. They Heal, that is their Job. The Main Tank is their target, not you. :D If you die, you f'up, not the Cleric's fault.. :p

If you think you die a lot now, I have some very sad news for you. You will die a TON of times in Velious. A TON. Better Bind Affinity close as hell, you will NEED it!!

[maskedmelon]

I am inclined to agree with the OP on buffs. The cleric should help setup the chanter for success with buffs.

Beyond that chanter should cc and not take damage. If chanter is pulling aggro the. They are inefficiently burning he cleric's mana. Beyond charm chanters also have stuns, roots, memory blurs and lulls to manage mobs. Add rune on top if that and if playing well, you should not take more damage than you can regenerate naturally. It's a tall order, but that is how to play a chanter effectively. If others are breaking mez then you are a bit more limited by the spontaneity.

Not nocking you op, just pointing out that a well played chanter should not take much damage and by extension not need hp buffs though it is certainly comforting to have them. On the other hand I cannot see why the cleric wouldn't buff you if asked.

I think outside of chanters the best cc is done by paladins/rangers because they can rip aggro easily and park things away from the party. The best I ever see from a cleric/Druid is rooting the dumb things in a big melee eating mass. That I would take to be because they are maintaining a baseline of mana for when the proverbial poo hits the fan ^^

[DrKvothe]

Buffs: ask for what you want. cleric has no idea what you've got on you when the group starts, and he shouldn't have to waste mana if he doesn't need to. say "can you please buff my hp with everything you've got wmp? thanks!"

Helping with cc/pet management: your jerb. do it right. he's heals, you're cc/pet

[fadetree]

I think outside of chanters the best cc is done by paladins/rangers because they can rip aggro easily and park things away from the party.

I don't know about best outside of chanters ( bards come to mind ) but yeah thats what I was trying to say, Rangers, if you want to know what your role in a group is besides random_dps01, then this is it. Peel & park, do NOT USE FLAMELICK WITH A CHANTER IN THE GROUP, just heal spam and snare em off. If you see the monk heading in with more than three, snare one off onto you and just stand there, no dps, until the chanter gets it mezzed. If it looks like its gonna kill ya, root it and back off. The snare the target and all of the mezzed mobs too. If you know that a mob has a ton of aggro built on a chanter or cleric, snare it every 30 seconds or so while its drooling. Then when it wakes up it heads for you. step to the side and just stand there while the chanter remezzes. Never accept a direct heal; always ask for HoTs instead. If you pull a direct heal you have failed.