SKs: Iksar and their AC bonus. Ghost, or Real

[gobbosnobbo]

I've been debating with people lately, trying to get to the bottom of which race will be superior in the expansion for Shadow Knights.

A lot of talk has been centered around Greenmist, and how Iksars aren't restricted by plate gear in the next expansion. However, the later of the topics has hinged on whether or not Iksar race AC bonus actually exists, or whether it simply buffs the number on your character stat screen without having any real benefit to mitigation.

We've also debated as to what kind of AC the iksar bonus is, and whether or not it counts towards the softcap, or if it is considered avoidance AC and therefore is exempt.

I've heard players even go as far as to say that AC bonus for iksar class has never worked, not here, or on live, and will not work during the velious expansion either.

So I've come to the great pantheon of Shadow Knights, to seek knowledge from those who better remember the era than I do.

[Pheer]

Even if the ac bonus is going to be working, it wont be a big enough difference to get out from under the shadow of ogre frontal stun immunity. Playing any race other than ogre as an SK should be decided by your personal preference of race rather than the racial bonuses themselves imo. If you play an iksar just for greenmist and AC/regen then you're doing it wrong. Also iksar combat animations are pretty bad. On the plus side, the iksar custom velium helm model is one of my favorite item models in the entire game.

Its all ogre now

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130413033028/shrek/images/c/cc/Shrek_smiling.jpg

[gobbosnobbo]

Isnt racial abilities part of what builds to personal preference, and therefore, "doing it right"?

On that point, I gotta say that I...

"disOGREE" with you.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-98JePHqH57g/U2__hinNLaI/AAAAAAAAAB8/N8965m5G2dA/s1600/hairflip_by_dreamworks_charming-d5qduik.gif

[Celatus]

Iksar will be the superior sk due to greenmist.

[gobbosnobbo]

Iksar will be the superior sk due to greenmist.

What makes greenmist so good over the epic though.

Yes, I understand its a 1h weapon, goes with a shield... Yet, does it really compete with the epic in terms of both survivability and damage output?

Is there some trump card it has overall that we can definitely say "oh yeah, greenmist by far and away makes iksar sks the definitive best", or are we really just playing up and overestimating greenmist?

It is also notoriously hard to get, so that factors in as well..

[Celatus]

You could debate it i guess but yes it is that much better. + regen while fd is nice and the ac bonus is nice. I guess it depends on what you feel you're role is. If you are off tanking then greenmist is the shit. If you fancy yourself a 2h dpser i don't know what to tell you.

[gobbosnobbo]

Fair enough. You think SKs, or knights in general will weather the storm as well as Warrior for tanking groups or at the very least, off-tanking?

I've seen a lot of trash talk vs knights for velious, and outside of palli for their support heals, a lot of people are saying they have no use in min/max outside tanking very specific and few add phase fights.

[Celatus]

I think they will be fine in group tanking and off tanking raid trash and other things. Knights have their place just like every other class. I also think every race for knights will be fine but Greenmist is a nice bonus that other races wont get here.

[gobbosnobbo]

Great posts cel, ty for your advice

[Danth]

Knight classes tanking raid mobs, even trash, tends to be more about guild culture than about class strengths. Some guilds use Warriors for everything and forget about their knights except for picking up class loot. Other guilds like rapid aggro-lock and use knight tanks for trash clearing with some regularity. I don't really see it as an expansion issue. Raid bosses during Velious, however, tend to require Warriors to a much greater degree than in Kunark due to increased length of battles. There are a handful that knights are sometimes used for, but few and far between. Knights can easily handle most trash, but don't make a knight if you particularly care about tanking Velious raid bosses with any great regularity.

There's nothing wrong with Iksar Shadow Knights. I wouldn't make one simply for Greenmist, but it's a very nice perk. Note that Velious will be out for the better part of a year before the quest is even made available.

Danth

[Pheer]

You could debate it i guess but yes it is that much better. + regen while fd is nice and the ac bonus is nice. I guess it depends on what you feel you're role is. If you are off tanking then greenmist is the shit. If you fancy yourself a 2h dpser i don't know what to tell you.

Theres plenty of good knight 1handers in velious. Maybe greenmist is decent if you dont ever expect to have velious raid loot, but if youre in a guild that can eventually make it into NToV etc. then its pretty irrelevant imo. Also if you want regen while FD then you can just carry a fungi around with you.

[Raev]

IMO even if the ogre stun immunity only applied to FD, Ogres would still not be worse than Iksars as SKs.

[gobbosnobbo]

IMO even if the ogre stun immunity only applied to FD, Ogres would still not be worse than Iksars as SKs.

That seems a bit of an over-exaggeration ...

[Celatus]

Theres plenty of good knight 1handers in velious. Maybe greenmist is decent if you dont ever expect to have velious raid loot, but if youre in a guild that can eventually make it into NToV etc. then its pretty irrelevant imo. Also if you want regen while FD then you can just carry a fungi around with you.

true but none of them have as awesome of a proc as greenmist. Everyone should carry a fungi with them. Every guild I was ever in on live it was required raid equipment until probably DoN. If Warriors could use greenmist every raid warrior would be Iksar just for the proc. Obviously procing weapons are much less important for sk than they are for warriors but still.

[kaev]

Knight classes tanking raid mobs, even trash, tends to be more about guild culture than about class strengths. Some guilds use Warriors for everything and forget about their knights except for picking up class loot. Other guilds like rapid aggro-lock and use knight tanks for trash clearing with some regularity. I don't really see it as an expansion issue. Raid bosses during Velious, however, tend to require Warriors to a much greater degree than in Kunark due to increased length of battles. There are a handful that knights are sometimes used for, but few and far between. Knights can easily handle most trash, but don't make a knight if you particularly care about tanking Velious raid bosses with any great regularity.

There's nothing wrong with Iksar Shadow Knights. I wouldn't make one simply for Greenmist, but it's a very nice perk. Note that Velious will be out for the better part of a year before the quest is even made available.

Danth

Implying that a Warrior made now will tank Velious raid bosses regularly seems like it might maybe be a bit of a stretch.

[Danth]

True, most guilds already have their tank corps pretty well set. Getting a regular main tank slot in any established guild is always a tough job. This, too, is partly related to guild culture--some guilds' tank groups are more open to new blood than others. On the other hand, all guilds face gradual turnover, so a sufficiently determined player will eventually get his chance. A Warrior made today might be too late to do much for Velious progression (we'll see...Velious was "imminent" a couple years ago as it is), but it won't be going anywhere and a year or two from now guilds will still need tanks. Certainly that Warrior will be more likely to eventually end up a guild's main tank for Velious bosses than a Paladin or Shadow Knight would be!

Danth

[wycca]

P99 has pretty high turnover in general. I'm guessing theres not a single guild out there that wouldn't welcome a competent war, and come Velious I imagine sk/pal demand will tick up with all the trash where agro is key.

[pasi]

Greenmist is a good weapon for casuals, but it is outclassed by pretty much every raid 1hander or 2hander. There are assloads of knight-only weapons available with 10 knights playing the server. You can buy an Ebon Mace -now- for like 8k which is close to the same ratio as Greenmist (no proc or stats though). Zlandicar sword will likely be cheap which is a 28/30 droppable 1hander. It wouldn't surprise me if Narandi Lance is regularly sold later on too.

I'm purposely ignoring the far superior no-drop stuff here which is going to mass rot.

Anyhow, I've got about 400 days played on live as an Iksar SK, I'd be lying if I told you that I didn't wish I had rolled Ogre instead. The main benefit of iksar SKs is the ability to forage.

[gobbosnobbo]

After spending the last two nights on researching Stun resistance for ogre on both P1999 and its live counterpart at the time, this is what I've discovered.

1. According to Ogre players who played during live on Velious, stun resist doesn't work on monsters over level 51.

2. Bash still has a % chance to interrupt a spell, regardless if the stun hits you or not.

3. There are too many spell interruption mechanics on p1999, such as push, chance on interrupt per hit, and spell interrupt on bash mechanic to rely on Stun resistance to save your life in situations where many mobs are hitting the Ogre. Statistically (Mathematically), the chance of stun resistance saving your life because a spell wasn't interrupted by bash, is an incredibly small margin, and is one of the less likely factors that determines whether a player is going to die or not.

4. Stun resistance only works in a 90 degree cone in front of the Ogre. Therefore, monsters not within this range can still stun you from the "front" or adjacent to the front.

5. Warriors claim that stun resistance helps them keep agro on mobs, however, this is mostly a problem for under geared or fresh warriors, and no problem for Knights as they use different mechanics other than taunt to draw agro.

It is true that maybe at the very beginning of a pull, if a warrior is stunned right away without being able to use mallet to acquire agro may have a small chance of being problematic, though again statistically, this isn't likely; also, if it does happen, agro will most likely fall to another warrior, or knight doing the same thing before it is reacquired by the main tank.

To boot, agro isn't an issue for knights, and with velious stats coming out, there is literally no other reason to play an ogre, since its stat advantage will be will be nullified by gear and stat caps.

6. Slowed mobs bash at a severely reduced rate when slow is applied to the mob. Once this happens, the advantage of having stun resistance diminishes in correlation with the frequency of bashes over a fight.

TL-DR : With the information gathered, I have come to what I believe is both an objective and unbiased conclusion. Other than being annoyed for 2 seconds or for spamming a cast after being interrupted by the bash, and the very slim margin it has on saving your life or regaining agro in the first 2 seconds of an engagement, Ogre stun has been vastly overrated for a while now, and the advantages of being an Ogre diminish even more-so with the introduction of velious. The truth that Ogres have an advantage over the other races due to stun resistance, such as Iksar and Troll, lies firmly seated in perception rather than reality.

Unless we're talking about aesthetics, and then I hand it to them, Ogres do look pretty neat.



PS. If I have left any information that is incorrect on here, please correct it. My research was gathered from searching for outdated forums on the topic, individual player experience, and any raw patch notes I could find.

[Pheer]

After spending the last two nights on researching Stun resistance for ogre on both P1999 and its live counterpart at the time, this is what I've discovered.

1. According to Ogre players who played during live on Velious, stun resist doesn't work on monsters over level 51.

Pretty sure thats not the case here.

2. Bash still has a % chance to interrupt a spell, regardless if the stun hits you or not.

Not sure if it works like this here, if it does then its not a high enough % chance for me to have really noticed it.


3. There are too many spell interruption mechanics on p1999, such as push, chance on interrupt per hit, and spell interrupt on bash mechanic to rely on Stun resistance to save your life in situations where many mobs are hitting the Ogre. Statistically (Mathematically), the chance of stun resistance saving your life because a spell wasn't interrupted by bash, is an incredibly small margin, and is one of the less likely factors that determines whether a player is going to die or not.

I disagree with this one entirely. Unless your channeling is shit then it shouldnt be that hard to get off an FD even with a considerable amount of mobs on you. Ive channeled BE greaves FD (3 sec cast time) many times through multiple mobs meleeing me when I had an FD fail.

4. Stun resistance only works in a 90 degree cone in front of the Ogre. Therefore, monsters not within this range can still stun you from the "front" or adjacent to the front.

Not that big a deal, you just have to step back a few feet and funnel any mobs off to the side into that cone. That is assuming youre even in a situation where it matters if you get stunned or not.

5. Warriors claim that stun resistance helps them keep agro on mobs, however, this is mostly a problem for under geared or fresh warriors, and no problem for Knights as they use different mechanics other than taunt to draw agro.

It is true that maybe at the very beginning of a pull, if a warrior is stunned right away without being able to use mallet to acquire agro may have a small chance of being problematic, though again statistically, this isn't likely; also, if it does happen, agro will most likely fall to another warrior, or knight doing the same thing before it is reacquired by the main tank.

To boot, agro isn't an issue for knights, and with velious stats coming out, there is literally no other reason to play an ogre, since its stat advantage will be will be nullified by gear and stat caps.

Stun immunity is still a really good reason to play an ogre in velious. As you said velious raid gear closes the stat gap so all itll come down to is racials and looks. Stun immunity blows away all the other racials imo, even iksar ac/regen. Only real advantage an iksar SK has over an ogre SK in velious is being able to keep the Soul Defiler (http://wiki.project1999.com/Soul_Defiler) proc up without going into HP degen.

6. Slowed mobs bash at a severely reduced rate when slow is applied to the mob. Once this happens, the advantage of having stun resistance diminishes in correlation with the frequency of bashes over a fight.

If you're in a situation where you need to rely on stun immunity to save your life, then the mob probably isnt slowed anyway. Having a random spell interrupted now and then in regular grouping isnt a big deal at all. Where stun immunity really shines is those clutch moments where a stun can mean the difference between life and death. Its a safety net for the most part.

TL-DR : With the information gathered, I have come to what I believe is both an objective and unbiased conclusion. Other than being annoyed for 2 seconds or for spamming a cast after being interrupted by the bash, and the very slim margin it has on saving your life or regaining agro in the first 2 seconds of an engagement, Ogre stun has been vastly overrated for a while now, and the advantages of being an Ogre diminish even more-so with the introduction of velious. The truth that Ogres have an advantage over the other races due to stun resistance, such as Iksar and Troll, lies firmly seated in perception rather than reality.

Unless we're talking about aesthetics, and then I hand it to them, Ogres do look pretty neat.


Your entire point relies on this idea that stun immunity saving your life is a "slim chance" which i feel is completely incorrect. I can't say for sure since I haven't played a non ogre SK on this server very much, but I can think of tons of situations where I certainly would have died if I were to be stunned.

Remember that stun immunity doesn't just affect spellcasting, theres many situations where an actual stun can easily kill you.

[pasi]

I really think people take max stats (STR/STA) for granted. People assume every raider is gonna be rolling around in full Vulak and Dozekar 100/100 stuff. Primal will cover STR/AGI/DEX, but it doesn't hit STA.

If you look at the PoGrowth, Thurgadin, Kael, and even Skyshrine armor, the stats aren't all that high. That's not to say that you can't cap those stats with some buffs and some heavy-stat gear, but you're probably having to sacrifice some HP and resists for those stats.

Having more starting stats allows you to go for gear that has more HP/resists.

[gobbosnobbo]

I really think people take max stats (STR/STA) for granted. People assume every raider is gonna be rolling around in full Vulak and Dozekar 100/100 stuff. Primal will cover STR/AGI/DEX, but it doesn't hit STA.

If you look at the PoGrowth, Thurgadin, Kael, and even Skyshrine armor, the stats aren't all that high. That's not to say that you can't cap those stats with some buffs and some heavy-stat gear, but you're probably having to sacrifice some HP and resists for those stats.

Having more starting stats allows you to go for gear that has more HP/resists.

Thats actually a very fair point.

[pasi]

I will also concede to Iksar SKs that Greenmist boots are really sexy.

[Thulack]

I really think people take max stats (STR/STA) for granted. People assume every raider is gonna be rolling around in full Vulak and Dozekar 100/100 stuff. Primal will cover STR/AGI/DEX, but it doesn't hit STA.

If you look at the PoGrowth, Thurgadin, Kael, and even Skyshrine armor, the stats aren't all that high. That's not to say that you can't cap those stats with some buffs and some heavy-stat gear, but you're probably having to sacrifice some HP and resists for those stats.

Having more starting stats allows you to go for gear that has more HP/resists.

Str is so easy to max come velious. ALOT of the higher HP gear has loads of str on it too. Stamina is harder to max and while making gear sheets for velious for some of my toons it has become apparent that maxing sta will cost hp/resists(resists will come easier to people aslong as the 255 max is implemented here).

[gobbosnobbo]

Someone mentioned that there are better 1hs than Greenmist; Which 1handers would they be, and are they Knight only?

[gobbosnobbo]

Someone mentioned that there are better 1hs than Greenmist; Which 1handers would they be, and are they Knight only?

Hmmmmmmmmmm?

[Pheer]

Someone mentioned that there are better 1hs than Greenmist; Which 1handers would they be, and are they Knight only?

http://wiki.project1999.com/Essence_Blade

http://wiki.project1999.com/Frostwrath

http://wiki.project1999.com/Primal_Velium_Knight%27s_Sword

http://wiki.project1999.com/Eye_of_the_Rigtorgn

[holsteinrx7]

IMO even if the ogre stun immunity only applied to FD, Ogres would still not be worse than Iksars as SKs.



Thiiis. Ogre can fd with a few hundred hp left. Iksar must do it at like 40% hp. When you spend the whole day taking bashes to the face and casting, may as well not get interrupted. Green mist doesn't matter at all. The racial ac won't matter unless u have the exact same hp as a ogre (good luck), and regen only matters post 50. Post 50 sk can't solo and fungi doesn't matter.


If you're into min maxing with regen and ac bonus, warrior is for you.

Sks are more about kicking ass. Ogre style.

[ctre]

Velious
Standard tactics.
Bunch of wars on the Main mob.
Bunch of SK's and Pal's on mini Trash Bosses that come with the Main mob..

Kunark SK and Pal are not needed. But velious . yes SK pal off tanks are very much needed.

I call it re-balancing the game..