A legitimate reason to why bards couldn't AE kite in classic like they can on P99

[Secrets]

I believe I have found the reason. It wasn't because of your PC, or because you had a shitty connection; these were non-factors in 2001.

It's because you had to deal with the camera views that were offered in classic.

In classic, you were offered the F9 key to change the camera view ONLY. You couldn't hold ctrl or strafe like bards are doing on P99 while in third person because:

1) In classic, there was no strafe keybinding. You had to hold CTRL.
2) In classic, you did not have the mousewheel zoom-out. You had to press F9.

You would have to go into third person via the F9 key, at which point your character's movement is limited to circles, or if you hold ctrl, a straight line. Since you cannot use the mousewheel to adjust from first person view, there is no human reaction time typically capable of doing a change from first/third perfectly each time.

Sure, you could've wrote a program to rapidly press F9 to switch camera views, but that's not allowed on P99, and I am sure SOE/Verant would have frowned on it in classic.

Then, even if you do it perfectly mechanically you still have the technical issues of being able to see the NPCs.
You'd have to be able to see the NPCs, and in classic you are not able to see the NPCs you are kiting unless you physically turn your character in first person, and have to guess where they are otherwise. Any bard on P99 that has kited knows if you keyboard turn during a kite when you are 'swooping' in to land an AE, you're pretty much dead and cannot recover from it.

So, in short, there is one thing that will fix Bards that is actually a legitimate reason to fix in the spirit of classic: Remove the third person scrollwheel camera, and you will fix AE kiting. Other forms of bard kiting, like chant kiting, will be doable still.
I challenge bards to try and AE kite 35+ without using their scrollwheel on their mouse and take a video of it. I don't think you will be able to do it.

Side note: This is also probably why swarm kiting was so popular in classic; it did not require swooping in like AE kiting.

[stakha]

I only AE kited for about 3 levels in the 30s, but I can tell you definitively that you can do this in first person without problems. You can hear the mobs running behind you when your circle has the correct radius in order to then strafe across to land the ae. The number of mobs following you doesnt matter once you break about 10-15 (one mistake is a death).


All this said, I dont mind if this is nerfed.

[Swish]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Lenny-Listening-The-Simpsons.gif

Interesting... I wish I had more bard experience to be able to comment on the P99 side, but I did find bard kiting very tricky back on live (pre-Kunark days).

Fixed pending update? Or are the bards going to carry on with their silly ways here? ;)

[Secrets]

I only AE kited for about 3 levels in the 30s, but I can tell you definitively that you can do this in first person without problems. You can hear the mobs running behind you when your circle has the correct radius in order to then strafe across to land the ae. The number of mobs following you doesnt matter once you break about 10-15 (one mistake is a death).


All this said, I dont mind if this is nerfed.

Right - but it's certainly harder to judge distance than noise. If one of those senses are removed, I guarantee bards will be frantically trying to determine noise and not die. I don't know how others kite, but sight and sound play a crucial part in my ability to kite.

[Lazie]

You can strafe without key bindings or holding ctrl...Start a strafe by holding down the up direction and either left or right direction combined with right click on your mouse. Then hit the letter t or / on your keyboard to force chat to activate...let go of the direction keys...You are now locked strafing.


In classic all you had to do after doing that little trick is F9 to the camera angle you prefer and turn with the mouse+right click. Not to rain on your parade because you seemed so sure it wasn't possible. However, it was it was just more tedious.

[Laugher]

I think you may be onto something here, after Trying out the classic UI recently among other things like having to f9 for view changes I could see where it would have at least been a sizable deterrent to kite for some esp given that people back then had 15 less years of knowledge/practice

[abazaba]

Classic there was a lot more wiggle room between bard ae radius and mobs connecting on you, if memory serves. P99 provides a slim margin of error comparatively it seems.

I'm all for a change, as long as it gets us closer to classic.

[falkun]

1) In classic, there was no strafe keybinding. You had to hold CTRL.
Any bard on P99 that has kited knows if you keyboard turn during a kite when you are 'swooping' in to land an AE, you're pretty much dead and cannot recover from it.
While I agree strafing makes PBAOE kiting a whole lot easier, I did all of my OT leveling using tap-turning, and not using strafing. So it can be done reliably, consistently, efficiently.
2) In classic, you did not have the mousewheel zoom-out. You had to press F9.

You could adjust the camera even without the mouse. I believe the default keybinds are Insert/Delete to zoom the camera forward/backwards from the 2nd F9 (behind the back) and CTRL+page up/page down move the camera vertically up from/down into the ground, so no mouse wheel is necessary, its just easier. I never manipulate the camera by zooming out of first person, I always just head to 2nd F9 and then manipulate from there, as I did on Live (playing Kunark-OoW so not sure where along that time line I picked up my preferred camera angle).
I challenge bards to try and AE kite 35+ without using their scrollwheel on their mouse and take a video of it. I don't think you will be able to do it.
I already said I did it that way, but if you'd like additional proof I can make up a fresh FRAPs for you.
Then, even if you do it perfectly mechanically you still have the technical issues of being able to see the NPCs.
You'd have to be able to see the NPCs, and in classic you are not able to see the NPCs you are kiting unless you physically turn your character in first person, and have to guess where they are otherwise.
No you don't. Using tap-turning and my camera angle, I always kept the pack at JUST off screen on whichever direction kiting (so if I was turning clockwise the mobs would be just off the right side of my screen, left if running counter-clockwise). I'd use the dot messages to know if I hit the pack, and if I kept my tapping consistent (you get used to it, like a human metronome), the pack was always there for the next DoT song completion to affect 70+% of the pack.

Here's my explanation on pbaoe bard kiting from 2011: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=304509&postcount=4

[stakha]

Right - but it's certainly harder to judge distance than noise. If one of those senses are removed, I guarantee bards will be frantically trying to determine noise and not die. I don't know how others kite, but sight and sound play a crucial part in my ability to kite.

Perhaps, though I always did it in first person. Immersion levels pretty high knowing there is a crowd of monsters on your tail by the sound if their footsteps (or whatever it is that allows those succulents to move).

[indiscriminate_hater]

key tapped from levels 2 to 55

[indiscriminate_hater]

Also, swarm kiting was more popular because it was a whole lot safer

[khanable]

wtb trilogy client

[Llaile]

That first post is almost offensive. I always used a fixed floating f9 camera position and just tapped d over and over as I kited.

[Ravager]

wtb trilogy client

This x1000.

[Juryiel]

Right - but it's certainly harder to judge distance than noise. If one of those senses are removed, I guarantee bards will be frantically trying to determine noise and not die. I don't know how others kite, but sight and sound play a crucial part in my ability to kite.

I never saw the mobs when I kited. With tapping method you can adjust circles slowly until you are in range to land songs but not get hit. You also get the hang of it so you can adjust circle-size quickly. Seeing mobs is not a requirement to do this easily. I also do not change my camera or strafe when doing this (I do not use the mouse at all, just autorun and tap turn button with one hand and songs on numpad with the other).

[Tewaz]

I just ran in a circle backwards on live.

[iruinedyourday]

Uh what?! Lol mouse wheel worked in 99 also strafe. This is all wrong.

[Pringles]

I kited all the way to 54 on a bard, I never used strafe hotkeys (I still dont to this day), always key tap'd to keep my radius where i wanted it. I was always in 3rd person, and F9 would work fine for it.

One reason kiting is so difficult here, compared to live, is how far out a mob can hit you when you're running straight ahead / away from them. Its not the same as live was. Kiting on live was much easier.

[webrunner5]

key tapped from levels 2 to 55

Well I never made it to 55 sad to say, but Tapping was the only way I knew how to do it back then. :( I bet I was not alone.

[wwoneo]

Uh what?! Lol mouse wheel worked in 99 also strafe. This is all wrong.

^ Mouse wheel and strafe both worked on live in 99. You got this all wrong Secrets.

[Walth]

I don't remember it not working either. I've never played first person other than adjusting to traveling needs that I can recall.

[luno]

I also kite using the tap turning method described by Falkun and Juryiel. It’s definitely possible in first person, but more difficult. Also, I was able to strafe in Velious on live quite easily by using mouse-look and auto-run while turning.

This thread may be a bit misguided to begin with because bard AoE kiting absolutely happened on live during classic, at a scale similar to what people attempt on p1999. However, the knowledge of various methods for bard AoE kiting are more widespread on p1999 due to YouTube and the fact that mostly veterans of EQ play on this server.

I also believe what Falkun said about having an easier window to land the AoE on classic is right too (although I'm not sure how, the range should be the same). I almost never AoE'd on live anyways because it was more dangerous and required a lot of focus…I usually opted to swarm kite instead, which seems to not work very well on this server and thus everyone AoE's instead.

So far I've tried to teach a few other bards to AoE kite and recommended several YouTube videos as a reference, yet I don't think any of them really managed to pick it up. My point being that it's already pretty difficult and takes practice. Even once you've got it down it requires a lot of concentration, some danger of physical strain, and of course there's the high risk of dying (admittedly, this is easily outweighed by the exp rate).

I think the main thing to succeeding at AoE kiting is to keep your moves consistent and change one thing at a time until you land the DoT, then remembering what kinds of moves you made to get there. With practice, this method can be applied regardless of where the camera is, and dedicated bards will be able to kite as long as the classic mechanics aren't nerfed.

TL;DR: Strafing and AoE kiting happened on classic, AoE kiting was/is difficult on both p1999 and classic, and most folks I knew (myself included) generally preferred swarm kiting (which doesn't quite work on p1999) because it was less demanding mentally/physically.

[Sage Truthbearer]

I think you're wrong on multiple assumptions.. Not only can you tap turn to AE kite, but it's both easier and safer compared to strafing.

[maskedmelon]

^ Mouse wheel and strafe both worked on live in 99. You got this all wrong Secrets.

No, Secrets is definitely right on the scroll wheel. I want to say that was added around luclin, possibly late Velious because I specifically remember the patch and thinking, neato, now I don't have to deal with those weird pre-defined camera angles for my screenshots.

I am not sure about strafe keys though. I ya be just used right mouse click + left/right to strafe though I cannot recall if that was how it worked in Classic or not since it never much mattered as I spent most of my time on my ass.

[Bboboo]

I have mass aoe'd in first person with just tapping the right key.

[luno]

I think Secrets is referring to the method wherein, at the end of your tightest circle, you strafe across the mobs to land the AoE.

It's easier to get close to the mobs that way without getting hit. I've been able to land dennon's using just tapping, but to land chords of dissonance on p1999...I'm not sure there's a way to get close enough without taking a hit if you don't strafe.

[Portasaurus]

I tried to bard kite once but I ran out of desk

:(

[Scrubosaur]

Tap circled while looking at the ground (so I wouldn't get graphics lag) and damage spam off; using points of reference on the ground to determine the circle size.

[Secrets]

Uh what?! Lol mouse wheel worked in 99 also strafe. This is all wrong.

This is false regarding the mousewheel. Case and point: EQMac client. Try and do it on the EQMac client, then get back to me.

Strafing did work in 1999 but only while holding CTRL. I'm moreso referring to the only modifier that is allowed for strafe is CTRL in classic, refer to the EQMac client again for that.

As for the right click to Strafe function, it did NOT work in classic unless you are talking about first person camera views.

[w1zard]

I've leveled two bards on this server to 50+ using AoE kiting. I did it without using the mousewheel (nor zooming in/out at all)

[Vexenu]

Mousewheel zoom-out was definitely not a classic feature. Most of the F9 camera angles were really awkward and not functional to use while engaged in combat. As far as I know it was pretty much universal to play exclusively in first person, with a few exceptions.

Looking back, the fact that EQ basically forced a first person view on you definitely made it more immersive when compared to newer MMOs. You felt like you were actually IN the world, rather than watching your character run around it.

[radda]

i dont use mouse wheel out, just f9 and circle

[Clark]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Lenny-Listening-The-Simpsons.gif

Interesting... I wish I had more bard experience to be able to comment on the P99 side, but I did find bard kiting very tricky back on live (pre-Kunark days).

Fixed pending update? Or are the bards going to carry on with their silly ways here? ;)

It was definitely a lot different for live. More so due to internet speeds, but I still think mechanics wise too something is different now it seems as far as mobs hit range being shorter here. Idk though was so long ago holy cow.

[Kender]

i ae kited on live and it was easier there. the mobs didn't hit you from as far away, and the ae landed on them when they were further away

i didn't even really need to tap turn on live. full speed drum selos cornering (constantly holding down arrow key not tapping) and the mobs couldn't catch me. only tapped to get them close enough to full corner. once in tight it was pretty much free xp and risk free.

[fastboy21]

I believe I have found the reason. It wasn't because of your PC, or because you had a shitty connection; these were non-factors in 2001.

It's because you had to deal with the camera views that were offered in classic.

In classic, you were offered the F9 key to change the camera view ONLY. You couldn't hold ctrl or strafe like bards are doing on P99 while in third person because:

1) In classic, there was no strafe keybinding. You had to hold CTRL.
2) In classic, you did not have the mousewheel zoom-out. You had to press F9.

You would have to go into third person via the F9 key, at which point your character's movement is limited to circles, or if you hold ctrl, a straight line. Since you cannot use the mousewheel to adjust from first person view, there is no human reaction time typically capable of doing a change from first/third perfectly each time.

Sure, you could've wrote a program to rapidly press F9 to switch camera views, but that's not allowed on P99, and I am sure SOE/Verant would have frowned on it in classic.

Then, even if you do it perfectly mechanically you still have the technical issues of being able to see the NPCs.
You'd have to be able to see the NPCs, and in classic you are not able to see the NPCs you are kiting unless you physically turn your character in first person, and have to guess where they are otherwise. Any bard on P99 that has kited knows if you keyboard turn during a kite when you are 'swooping' in to land an AE, you're pretty much dead and cannot recover from it.

So, in short, there is one thing that will fix Bards that is actually a legitimate reason to fix in the spirit of classic: Remove the third person scrollwheel camera, and you will fix AE kiting. Other forms of bard kiting, like chant kiting, will be doable still.
I challenge bards to try and AE kite 35+ without using their scrollwheel on their mouse and take a video of it. I don't think you will be able to do it.

Side note: This is also probably why swarm kiting was so popular in classic; it did not require swooping in like AE kiting.

I think you are partially correct. However, I don't use the scroll wheel and I kite. I do the whole thing in third person view (not "chase view"---which is what you get from using the scroll wheel) from start to end. I flip between first and third person by hitting two hotkeys that I have set (rather than the default f9---but hitting f9 would be exactly the same).

I don't see why this is so complicated to be honest. I assume it is more of a comfort thing for some players---like the difference between "tapping" and "mousing" to make your loops. I do hold alt and flip the camera around while I am in third person to see what is behind me very frequently, and am very good at it at this point. Its just what I prefer, and I don't see (though I could be wrong) how it would be affected by the mechanics you are describing.

This method is also how I actually did swarm kiting on live, albeit I didn't start doing so until Velious---so maybe it was different during vanilla/kunark.

Also, the biggest reason I have to strafe on p99 is that on p99 mobs will hit me from out of range (or at least, what should be out of range) if I don't. On live, this didn't happen. Before p99 I **never** used strafe mode while moving, though I guess it would have made sense to do so for other reasons...I just never did, and managed to swarm kite quite easily. To be honest, swarm kiting on p99 is actually much harder than I remember it being on live from a mechanics point of view just because of the funky hit range. Finding the sweet spot of range of songs hitting and not getting hit yourself is much narrower on p99 than it was on live. I won't offer my own explanation/hypothesis for why swarm kiting is so much more popular here than on live (I have a few guesses), but it seems to be the case regardless of the extra difficulty on p99.

Obviously, if you restrict camera options and options to swap between them it makes all types of playing more difficult for those who use those options. And effects those who don't not at all.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

OP's observations are one of the first intriguing reasons I've heard.

My somewhat weaker hypothesis is, that kind of massive mob swarming would have caused 90% of the player base at that time to LD alot, because of hardware/connectivity issues. so it was just not something people did. Hard to sell your product if the person buying it goes keeps going LD, or worse, the bard.

I just remember connectivity and not going LD, by either crashing clients or the zone, waqs a constant issue in classic. And bard kiting -- isn't that exactly the sort of thing that would crash or mega-lag a zone back in the day?

Correct me if I'm wrong of course. It's just my hypothesis why.... NERF BARDS.

[fastboy21]

OP's observations are one of the first intriguing reasons I've heard.

My somewhat weaker hypothesis is, that kind of massive mob swarming would have caused 90% of the player base at that time to LD alot, because of hardware/connectivity issues. so it was just not something people did. Hard to sell your product if the person buying it goes keeps going LD, or worse, the bard.

I just remember connectivity and not going LD, by either crashing clients or the zone, waqs a constant issue in classic. And bard kiting -- isn't that exactly the sort of thing that would crash or mega-lag a zone back in the day?

Correct me if I'm wrong of course. It's just my hypothesis why.... NERF BARDS.

the biggest nerf you can give to a bard is to remember his name/guild name if he is being an ass.

imo, the biggest reason folks didn't do these things so openly and with reckless disregard to others on live is that the biggest fear would be having your reputation ruined. folks on live who behaved the way that folks dislike about bards (I'm not talking about the bards who don't cause mayhem) would have been blackballed from joining guilds, finding grps, even just getting ports.

p99 is a great community, but with so many alts running around any fear of injuring your reputation through asshattery has totally been taken out the equation.

you can't fix this problem by patching strafe and camera mechanics. its a p99 problem NOT a classic EQ problem and NOT a bard problem.

[kaev]

p99 is a great community, but with so many alts running around any fear of injuring your reputation through asshattery has totally been taken out the equation.

you can't fix this problem by patching strafe and camera mechanics. its a p99 problem NOT a classic EQ problem and NOT a bard problem.

^^ Nailed it. ^^

Although it is fun to bash p99 bards, after all some few of them have earned the right to be viewed as sub-human jerks who probably ought to be the first against the wall when the revolution comes..