Feign death sk vs monk

[Vidar]

How much of a difference is there between the two? Is one much better/more useful or are they about the same?

[arsenalpow]

One has a cast time, one is instantaneous

[Vidar]

What about the fail rate? Monk has a skill for the fd right? And sk is just a preset fail rate?

[myriverse]

Pretty sure Monk fail rate scales down to 5% @ 100 skill.

SK fail rate is a bit higher. Lucy says 13%.

[Danth]

I don't have a Monk, but do have a 60 Shadow Knight, so here's my take on the differences between ability and spell feign:

a) Monks can feign on the run; a Shadow Knight has to stop to cast. This, alone doesn't hurt too much in practice until you want to split spell-casters: The cast time on SK feign makes it much harder for that class to time feign between monster casts.

b) (Edited) Monks presently have a shorter re-use on Feign. A Shadow Knight has to wait 15 seconds in the event of a failure. With Velious, level 60 SK's will have a replacement feign spell with a 4 second recast and all 45+ SK's who can afford it can acquire Blood Ember Greaves for a second (albeit slow-casting) chance at feigning.

c) I don't know what Monk fail rate is, and never parsed the fail rate of SK feign on P1999, but it's surely less than 13% (which is a bit more than 1 in 8--very high..."Lucy" isn't always perfect). Maybe it's 13% at level 30 when you first get the spell? Whether that's the case or not, in practice at 60 I don't fail feign nearly that often. If I did I'd be afraid to even use it. Through many hundreds of uses my fail rate is significantly lower than 1 in 10 and probably nearer to 1 in 15 or 1 in 20.

d) Shadow Knights don't have Sneak, which means they can't do quite a few of the pulling-related tricks a Monk can do. Much of what some players think of as a Monk's splitting ability actually comes from Sneak moreso than from Feign as the two abilities synergize together quite well.

e) Shadow Knights have access to an item which lets them cast invisibility instantly, including straight from feign. This plus some of their other spells gives them access to some options a Monk lacks, making the SK the arguably better puller in a limited number of situations.

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I feel Monks have a general advantage over Shadow Knights in terms of Monks' ability to use feign effectively as a pulling tool. For general travel and getting around the Shadow Knight maintains closer practical parity; at least I can get to most anywhere in a dungeon like Sebilis from the zone-in as an SK. Monks generally have a larger margin for error and can be considered more user-friendly.

Danth

[Messianic]

For reference, I played a 60 epic monk on live and pulled some of the major raid dungeons..Didn't play an SK beyond 30 or so, so I'm more commenting from a monk's perspective.

a) Monks can feign on the run

This is the biggest advantage. Jump-feigning is particularly awesome.

b) Monk feign has little or no re-use timer

No, there is a re-use timer on the ability. I think it's about 10-15 seconds.

d) Shadow Knights don't have Sneak, which means they can't do quite a few of the pulling-related tricks a Monk can do. Much of what some players think of as a Monk's splitting ability actually comes from Sneak moreso than from Feign as the two abilities synergize together quite well.

Sneak is quite handy. Feign behind a mom's spawn point, let it reset (forget aggro on reset), sneak, stand and slowly walk away, bandage, whatever.

e) Shadow Knights have access to an item which lets them cast invisibility instantly, including straight from feign. This plus some of their other spells gives them access to some options a Monk lacks, making the SK the arguably better puller in a limited number of situations.

Yup, Circlet of Shadows is pretty darn awesome.

[Master Roshi]

Also, come velious, SK FD gets a major upgrade with Death Peace. 1 sec cast with a 4 (i think?) sec re-use, which makes FDing a whole not easier.

Also, being an ogre, I love not getting stunned when I'm trying to FD :D

[Colgate]

the fact that sneak is so insanely powerful on this server makes monk feign death way, way better alone

you can feign death, sneak, and as soon as the mobs turn around your aggro is permanently wiped as of the latest patch

[Kreylyn]

Monk FD reuse timer is 10 seconds.

Krey

[Ennewi]

Sneak is quite handy. Feign behind a mom's spawn point, let it reset (forget aggro on reset), sneak, stand and slowly walk away, bandage, whatever.


Only mom I know of in EQ http://wiki.project1999.com/The_Brood_Mother

[Taminy]

Generally monk feign is a lot better - and it does synergize well with sneak as others have said.

SKs do have a few useful tricks as well though, in particular snaring mobs then feigning and circlet of shadows. Sometimes a monk puller with SK tagger can work quite well in this regard.

[Danth]

No, there is a re-use timer on the ability.

Monk FD reuse timer is 10 seconds.

Thanks for the correction guys. As noted previous, I don't have a Monk, and for some reason I've always thought they could re-feign almost immediately. I'll edit my earlier post so as to remove bad info.

Oh, while not mentioned as yet, it should be noted that as a spell, Shadow Knight feign requires mana. While not usually an issue, this can create problems for the SK in rare situations (ie, having to repeatedly feign for some reason when you're already low on mana). A Monk never has that concern, giving them another ease-of-use advantage.

Danth

[webrunner5]

Also, come velious, SK FD gets a major upgrade with Death Peace. 1 sec cast with a 4 (i think?) sec re-use, which makes FDing a whole not easier.

Also, being an ogre, I love not getting stunned when I'm trying to FD :D

Well said. Ogre is really over the top if you really want to be a great SK puller. Not counting the toe to toe stuff that will happen in long fights in Velious. :cool:

[Danth]

Yanno, in years of playing my Shadow Knight (Human), including plenty of times I had to feign with 3-6 things attacking me, I can't recall ever having died to a feign interrupt when being an Ogre would have saved me*. It probably happens to folks now and then, but must be extremely rare. I figure the real advantage of being an Ogre is the peace of mind it gives those folks who feel it's the best choice--while often glossed over, having self-confidence is more important than any stat.

*Note that with 3+ things attacking you, many, probably most, feign fails will be caused by something being in mid-swing when you feign--which Ogres are just as vulnerable to as anyone else. This gives Monks another advantage since they can feign while running.

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It's also worth mentioning that Feign Death is probably one of the most powerful abilities in the game, and having a somewhat watered-down feign is still a huge advantage over anyone who can't do that. My Paladin has a huge instant self-heal, my SK doesn't, yet my Paladin dies several times as often as the SK even while sticking to safer jobs.

Danth

[Messianic]

Thanks for the correction guys. As noted previous, I don't have a Monk, and for some reason I've always thought they could re-feign almost immediately. I'll edit my earlier post so as to remove bad info.

Oh, while not mentioned as yet, it should be noted that as a spell, Shadow Knight feign requires mana. While not usually an issue, this can create problems for the SK in rare situations (ie, having to repeatedly feign for some reason when you're already low on mana). A Monk never has that concern, giving them another ease-of-use advantage.

Danth

Np :)

You definitely have witnessed a monk get up and immediately re-feign, tho. That's because the re-use timer starts on use of the ability, not when you get up. I think the same is true for necros/SKs.

Side note: one of the little learned principles of feigning is never to get right back up after a feign unless you're 100% sure (like, 100%. Not 90%. Not 80%.) you have no aggro. You don't want to be caught during the re-use timer with a bunch of 50+ mobs beating you to death.

[fastboy21]

I think you could construct a scenario where one would be better than the other in those specific situations...

for most folks, however, they really mean three things when they are talking about FDing: solo, grp and raid.

solo:

monks can FD travel through zones using sneak with relative safety if they have the skill to do it (i forget the link but someone recently posted a video on youtube of a monk flopping and sneaking his way through much of NToV to get into the pom---I don't think an SK could have done it nearly as easily). solo fighting sometimes you have to hit FD if you are going to lose or get aggro from someone's train, for this SK and monk are prob equal.

Group:

As puller for a group monk and SK can both get the job done about the same, depending on the specific situation there might be one place that one is better than the other. Generally speaking, between monk fd/sneak and SK fd/CoS they can split most exp camps if they know what they are doing. Once split, its really more about the attentiveness of the puller than their FD skills.

The thing isn't so much about who will be the puller, but who will be the tank. In most grps with an SK and a monk, it is going to make better sense for the monk to go out and pull and the SK to stay in (and med) and tank. Monk can DPS between pulls. Its a solid setup. It would be a lot of work for the SK to tank and pull in an exp grp and he would eventually go OOM if he couldn't med between kills.

As DPS manager tool monk can FD and pop back up without missing a single round, if needed. SK really can't do this nearly as smoothly, but why would they need to in most situations when they are the tank?

Raids:

Depending on the particular raid zone and mobs being split either could get the job done. On big pulling raids there is usually a team of pullers working together, not a single splitter. I usually send monks to the front and let the SKs do the last leg of the pull.

But, it really depends on player skill. Pulling in EQ with FD can be very quarky and the best folks aren't the best because they are monk or SK...they tend to know the tricks of the zone and pathing very well.

[Messianic]

I think you could construct a scenario where one would be better than the other in those specific situations...

for most folks, however, they really mean three things when they are talking about FDing: solo, grp and raid.

solo:

monks can FD travel through zones using sneak with relative safety if they have the skill to do it (i forget the link but someone recently posted a video on youtube of a monk flopping and sneaking his way through much of NToV to get into the pom---I don't think an SK could have done it nearly as easily). solo fighting sometimes you have to hit FD if you are going to lose or get aggro from someone's train, for this SK and monk are prob equal.

They're probably equal for most cases, but monk is a lot faster in See invis scenarios. I really didn't have any limits unless I was going through areas where there were a LOT of casters, and even then crafty use of LoS usually kept me alive.

I would frequently flop through entire high end dungeons just for the fun of it. That's how I learned my way around - was a lot better to already know the zone extremely well and possibly die in the process than have to learn that in a group/raid.

Plus I spent a lot of time LFG back in those 2k+ population days...

[Nuktari]

http://media1.giphy.com/media/TWaHQ5Iyvrfa0/200.gif

I'm a shadowknight, and I pretty much use FD like a panic button.

Face pull the entire room or bust.

But I think monk FD is better, cast Vs instant is no competition. Instant always wins. Tie in sneak, it's a sure winner. Monk4Pullz, SK4LuLz

[webrunner5]

FD, in this game, right now, is not as easy as people are saying on here to get rid of Agro. A lot of times the puller or Warrior tank has to zone to get rid of it at times. So not really a big advantage either class to pull. Iksar Monk has the edge if FD because of re gen high level, and Mend. But SK also has edge because of the AC and HP advantage he has. So I say it is sort of a wash.

There are a lot of pullers on this server, but as you all know not many of them are great. You really have to know the zones well to pull, and the mobs habits agro wise, pathing wise etc., to be damn good. And not a lot of people are good at all 3 or more aspects.

It is not a easy job to do it in the higher level zones. But then NO class on here is easy to play well in high level zones. I can count on 2 hands the great players I have grouped with in the last several months. And it is a pleasure to group with them if you can. :D I think too many people on here play too many alts to get really good at one like most of us did when EQ first came out. "Practice makes perfect" is no bullcrap.

[Bodybagger]

FD, in this game, right now, is not as easy as people are saying on here to get rid of Agro. A lot of times the puller or Warrior tank has to zone to get rid of it at times. So not really a big advantage either class to pull. Iksar Monk has the edge if FD because of re gen high level, and Mend. But SK also has edge because of the AC and HP advantage he has. So I say it is sort of a wash.

There are a lot of pullers on this server, but as you all know not many of them are great. You really have to know the zones well to pull, and the mobs habits agro wise, pathing wise etc., to be damn good. And not a lot of people are good at all 3 or more aspects.

It is not a easy job to do it in the higher level zones. But then NO class on here is easy to play well in high level zones. I can count on 2 hands the great players I have grouped with in the last several months. And it is a pleasure to group with them if you can. :D I think too many people on here play too many alts to get really good at one like most of us did when EQ first came out. "Practice makes perfect" is no bullcrap.


Troll SK has same regen as iksar monk, just sayin ;)

[SCB]

Troll SK has same regen as iksar monk, just sayin ;)

Also Iksar can be SKs.

[Master Roshi]

Also, I'm not certain if this has much merit to bring up, but...BE Legs change the FD scene for SKs once you can get a pair.

[Slathar]

ITS A WOBBLETY WOBBLETY ITS A WKBBELTY WONBELYT NOW DROP IT LIKE ITS HOT DROP DROP DROP IT LIKE ITS HOT


NEXT

[webrunner5]

Troll SK has same regen as iksar monk, just sayin ;)

Yeah, but no Mend. That IS the biggie for the Monk. :p Taping mobs you are trying to pull is not my idea of a good time to get health back.

[Noselacri]

Monks do it better, but there are benefits to having a tank do it at times.