Dispell mobs suddenly a bit strong?

[Toodles]

Before I am in with a bug report, what's going on with debuff/dispelling by mobs now since patch?

It's like every thing is dispelling FREQUENTLY and landing frequently. We tried doing some undead caster mobs post 50, and it was a purple pixel fest with the constant dispell attempts.

I even had a level 30sh mob hit one of my 60s with a Tash, and then immediately proceeded to cast a single dispell that wiped out four buffs immediately(two stat buffs, a sow and a talisman). Both times I tried to interrupt and I was also pushing the mob.

Yikes!

[Swish]

Sebilis frog shammies are certainly seem to doing more dispelling than they were before the patch.

Fix?: Get 2 clickies, and reclick as soon as you can. For me that's a Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring (http://wiki.project1999.com/Shrunken_Goblin_Skull_Earring) and a rogue mask in the top 2 slots but there's a bunch of others to pick from.

If it was as bad/frequent as the dispellers in Fear or Sky I think it'd be time to riot big time :p

[Calibretto]

Desert Madman ripped 2 buffs off me at 58. You know. The ones in oasis. Working as intended.

[Swish]

Desert Madman ripped 2 buffs off me at 58. You know. The ones in oasis. Working as intended.

Did you put a bug report in the bug forum?

[Daldaen]

Thats classic.

Dispells should not be resistable regardless of level.

The one thing I am unsure of is the counter mechanic. I like the implementation, but I think that clickies should be a guaranteed 1 roll. Using clickies was a pretty standard/reliable method of protecting against debuffs. Having a chance for your clicky goblin earring or telescope to roll an 8, leading to a buff in slot 3 or 4 getting ripped, I don't believe is classic.

Those top slot clickies should be ripped first every time a dispell is cast... which works 7/8 times. But that 1/8, losing Haste or C2 in slot 4 is annoying.

[Speedi]

Dal's right, it's classic. You prob never noticed it before because dispels being broke/resisted. Also, they shouldn't dispel random buff slots like they are currently doing. Depending on the level of the spell cast buffs should be dispelled from the top slot down.

[Man0warr]

Casters are casting their dispel spells way too often though - it's like if they detect buffs on you they won't stop until you have zero.

I remember frogs in seb etc casting dispel maybe once per fight.

[Daldaen]

They aren't dispelling random slots persay.

Imagine this:

1. Grim Aura (4)
2. J-Boots (1)
3. Heroic Bond (8)
4. Clarity II (8)

The number in () is the number of counters each buff has.

If Cancel magic is cast, it will roll a dice between 1-4. Lets say it rolls a 2.

It will remove 2 counters from EVERY BUFF, top down, UNTIL it removes a buff completely.

In the above case:

1. Grim Aura (2)
2. EMPTY
3. Heroic Bond (8)
4. Clarity II (8)

Here is removes 2 counters from Grim Aura (4) ending at (2), then it moves to the 2nd buff slot, removes 2 counters from JBoots (1) which completely removes it. At this point, the dispell ceases working.

A different scenario, imagine instead that Cancel Magic rolls a 4.

1. EMPTY
2. JBoots (1)
3. Heroic Bond (8)
4. Clarity II (8)

Here it removes 4 counters from Grim Aura (4) which completely removes it. At this point, the dispell ceases working.

Another scenario with Annul Magic. It has 2 dispell slots, and will roll 1-9.

Roll #1 = 2
Roll #2 = 1

After Roll #1 takes its effect:

1. Grim Aura (2)
2. EMPTY
3. Heroic Bond (8)
4. Clarity II (8)

After Roll #2 takes its effect:

1. Grim Aura (1)
2. EMPTY
3. Heroic Bond (7)
4. Clarity II (7)

Etc. The numbers on buff counters I believe are random rolls. There should be some weight to level of spell I believe. Clickies conversely, should almost always be a 1 counter.

Cancel Magic I believe rolls between 1-4.
Nullify Magic has 2 rolls between 1-4.
Annul Magic has 2 rolls between 1-9. (A 9 is a guaranteed removal of first buff it comes across)
Recant Magic has 4 rolls between 1-9.

This change is fantastic because previously, people ONLY used Cancel Magic due to its unresistable status. But now, Recant Magic is boss-status, can remove 4 buffs.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

classic.

my own experience, seb mobs were not dispelling nearly as much as I remember them. So if now they are, good. utility classes are useful for a reason, and this was always part of it. shit gets dispelled.

edit: but I agree with Swish. If, at any time, for any reason, in any zone or any encounter, mobs ever dispell like they do in Sky, there should be riots. In fact, we should all gather in EC and assassinate Lord British. Or something.

[Toodles]

Dal's right, it's classic. You prob never noticed it before because dispels being broke/resisted. Also, they shouldn't dispel random buff slots like they are currently doing. Depending on the level of the spell cast buffs should be dispelled from the top slot down.

Yes, I noticed that as well, some dispells hit the buffs as far down as slot 5.

Casters are casting their dispel spells way too often though - it's like if they detect buffs on you they won't stop until you have zero.

I remember frogs in seb etc casting dispel maybe once per fight.


Agreed, I remember some mobs being particularly 'painful' and avoided because they dispelled a lot. Though this is like every mob that's a caster. It looks silly with them casting dispell more than nukes, heals, or gates.

@Daldaen,

That's a great explanation however in my example of being tashed and dispelled by a level 30, as a level 60, my buffs were 50+. So unless I was really unlucky with their counters....
Besides he wiped out FOUR buffs; according to your notes, it should have stopped after the first buff disappeared.

[Speedi]

I don't mind getting dispelled cause 99% of the time I am running a minimum of 3 junk buffs from the top slot down to counter this. It's the times my first 2 slots gets dispelled, then it skips the next 2 slots and moves to my real buffs and takes 1-2 of those. That's not classic. As I said before dispel should work from the top slot down.

Example:

Grim Aura
See Invis
Jboots
Levitate
Mask of the Hunter
Bladecoat
Natureskin
Regrowth

In *Classic* EQ if you got dispelled it would dispel from the top down i.e. Grim Aura down. At the moment I have been losing Grim Aura, See Invis, then it will skip down to my real buffs and take Mask of the Hunter or NS or both etc. Or the same mob dispelling might just take the first two/three. I just dont remember it being like this at all. On live (Current Content) thats another thing.

[Haynar]

Clickies not doing random 8's. Will get on eqlive and test.

Would make junk buffs more reliable.

Might be something to look for on potions too.

Will investigate.

H

[Daldaen]

What mob wiped out 4 buffs?

Tash is unresistable and so are dispells, so level 30 mobs should do that.

They DEFINITELY cast Dispell too much, the caster AI favors it a lot.

[Speedi]

It's happened to me on several mobs since newest patch. But most recently on a froglok tactician and guk wizards (lord camp) this morning.

Thanks for taking a look at this H! :)

[46290]

Was kiting Goblins and Sarnaks in LoIO today and they were doing the same thing. LOTS of dispel casts. They would skip over the Junk (Gobbo earring, bracer of hidden, jboots) and end up eating my MR/HP buffs.

[Man0warr]

The only thing that removes 4 in a single cast is Recant right? So only enchanter mobs should have that.

Stuff like the gazers in Sky are totally suck now though - but they have AE dispels. Don't pull them if you don't have to (but that's Classic).

[Toodles]

What mob wiped out 4 buffs?



Rosch Mal Gnoll

At the moment I have been losing Grim Aura, See Invis, then it will skip down to my real buffs and take Mask of the Hunter or NS or both etc. Or the same mob dispelling might just take the first two/three. I just dont remember it being like this at all. On live (Current Content) thats another thing.

Ya, funky algorithm at play here. I had two important buffs in slot 1/2 and got a bit worried that they'd get dispelled. Meanwhile Grim Aura and something else junky was in slot 3/4. I got dispelled and lost 3/4 not 1/2.
So.....

[GinnasP99]

Also, they shouldn't dispel random buff slots like they are currently doing. Depending on the level of the spell cast buffs should be dispelled from the top slot down.

This. PLEASE change the random buff removal. I want my shadowbond back. (its also not classic, why do you think people loaded their first 5 slots with junk)

[tristantio]

Root a felwithe guard and you can test this very easily, as it's their only spell other than a root of their own.

I've had them dispel Arch Shielding/Dead Man Floating (slots 3 and 4) and completely bypass the Jboots / Lich in slot 1 and 2 since patch.

[Daldaen]

Yea if that is happening then the game is rolling high numbers on JBoots/Lich, and when they cast Cancel Magic, it does eat off 4 counters from each of those (Lets say 6 and 8.. ending at 2 and 4), but your Arch Shield / DMF had low numbers of counters so they got eaten.

Counter amount should scale based on spell level IMO and be a static number. Clickies should always be deemed as "Level 1" spells and have a counter of 1. That way the insta-clicky junk buffness should function as is intended.

[iruinedyourday]

I was killing stuff in hs last night and did think to myself, man he is chain casting that dispell. Could be just a coincidence but I did think it.

[captnamazing]

it's like they know that dispel is way more detrimental than a resistable nuke

[Kender]

buff stacking was classic. always had to have junkers at the top. dispell should not be removing stuff down the list first

[maahes]

Dal's right, it's classic. You prob never noticed it before because dispels being broke/resisted. Also, they shouldn't dispel random buff slots like they are currently doing. Depending on the level of the spell cast buffs should be dispelled from the top slot down.

This is correct. Common practice to drop any buffs that were in your first and second buff slot and fill them with clickies.

[iruinedyourday]

it's like they know that dispel is way more detrimental than a resistable nuke

A Sentient Bile did say, "hello world" right before I killed it.... But I just thought it was a glitch or something.. anyway right before it died to my final nuke it muttered, "please no" again, another bug I think. /shrug

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

In general -- not counting butt hurt aoe'ers or others who seek ez mode -- how do we feel about mobs actually being not stupid, and using dispells more?

Sky is a unique point of reference: aoe dispell, every pull, multiple times = one of the most classic pita of original eq.

That would be the extreme, but the other extreme is where dispell is a rare event.

It would be bad if they coded casters, so all they do is cast dispells. But, they *should* cast it and it should land fairly often. I just think it makes sense, especially post-50. Mobs should be smarter as our buffs get more powerful.

[Rupertox]

The problem of this is that tey're not dispelling top slots, they're dispelling for example hero and symbol woch are in slot 5 and 6

[iruinedyourday]

In general -- not counting butt hurt aoe'ers or others who seek ez mode -- how do we feel about mobs actually being not stupid, and using dispells more?

Shamans would love it. :P

[Buellen]

Prior to patch mobs would dispel infrequently and would rev up their dispel attempts as their mana got low. This behavior was very evident if you took on many caster mobs. typically they would dispel and root like crazy toward the end of their mana bar.

[Toodles]

In general -- not counting butt hurt aoe'ers or others who seek ez mode -- how do we feel about mobs actually being not stupid, and using dispells more?

Sky is a unique point of reference: aoe dispell, every pull, multiple times = one of the most classic pita of original eq.

That would be the extreme, but the other extreme is where dispell is a rare event.

It would be bad if they coded casters, so all they do is cast dispells. But, they *should* cast it and it should land fairly often. I just think it makes sense, especially post-50. Mobs should be smarter as our buffs get more powerful.

I am up for more of a challenge, and like strategy as most EQ players do. However every caster (and even some non casters? bug?) going ape shit and spamming a WIN button with dispell is about as enjoyable as the fact that all 'hard' raid mobs in EQ pull out their WIN button, which is AoE fear.

I'd like to leave that nonsense to raids only please!

[fadetree]

It's been said already. The behavior of current dispell is not correct, so any discussion of 'is it too much/too little' is moot until that gets fixed. As far as the challenge goes, I don't care how challenging it is or not, I care whether or not it's classic. Currently it is not.

[Haynar]

It's been said already. The behavior of current dispell is not correct, so any discussion of 'is it too much/too little' is moot until that gets fixed. As far as the challenge goes, I don't care how challenging it is or not, I care whether or not it's classic. Currently it is not.

Why is it not classic? If you can prove it is current wrong, I will change it.

Don't post garbage and waste my time.

H

[Erati]

Why is it not classic? If you can prove it is current wrong, I will change it.

Don't post garbage and waste my time.

H

I think the only avenue that needs to be investigated is what Dald was mentioning whether clickies could roll a higher 'buff counter power' of 1.

other than that this has felt like a much needed classic change

[fadetree]

Well, its not classic because it doesn't strip the buffs in the correct order? Sorry, H., I had no intention of 'posting garbage'. If you look at my post history I don't really make a habit of that. Excuse me if this came off badly.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I am up for more of a challenge, and like strategy as most EQ players do. However every caster (and even some non casters? bug?) going ape shit and spamming a WIN button with dispell is about as enjoyable as the fact that all 'hard' raid mobs in EQ pull out their WIN button, which is AoE fear.

I'd like to leave that nonsense to raids only please!

Yeah, put me down on the "dial it down" camp then. Dispells should be in the mob's rotation, that just makes sense. But if they are essentially spamming it, that is just a nerf in the other direction.

But as to casting random buff slots, that is maybe a trickier gameplay question. If it came down, from the dev side, to "always hit a random buff if dispell hits" to "always hit buffs in slot order" (as previous posters nicely explained) I would side with the latter.

I would argue that the ideal would be, a dispell has a *chance* to hit a random buff slot, but otherwise follows the slot order system, but that may be not something that can be put into the code.

edit: if a dispell makes its roll to dispell a random buff slot, we could use the term "crit dispell" perhaps. From what people are saying, it seems as if mobs are currently always criting their dispells.

[Daldaen]

Well, its not classic because it doesn't strip the buffs in the correct order? Sorry, H., I had no intention of 'posting garbage'. If you look at my post history I don't really make a habit of that. Excuse me if this came off badly.

It does you just aren't seeing it that way.

I explained this in a previous post.

1. JBoots (8)
2. Grim Aura (7)
3. Heroic Bond (6)
4. Symbol of Marzin (6)
5. Visions of Grandeur (4)
6. Clarity II (5)
7. Strengthen (1)
8. Resist Magic (4)
9. Resist Cold (2)
10. Resist Fire (2)
11. Regrowth (8)

Imagine you have these buffs, and the (X) is the number of counters each buff has. This is a random roll between 1-8 on every spell.

When a mob casts Cancel Magic on you, it has a roll of 1-4. Let's say it rolls a 4. This roll means that the dispell will work, top down, removing 4 counters from your buffs until it goes through every buff or it removes one.

1. JBoots (8-4=4)
2. Grim Aura (7-4=3)
3. Heroic Bond (6-4=2)
4. Symbol of Marzin (6-4=2)
5. Visions of Grandeur (4-4=BUFF REMOVED)
---Here the Dispell ceases cutting down your buffs---
6. Clarity II (5)
7. Strengthen (1)
8. Resist Magic (4)
9. Resist Cold (2)
10. Resist Fire (2)
11. Regrowth (8)

Had your JBoots rolled a 1 instead, they would've been removed first and no other buff would've been touched.

The "problem" right now is how those counters are determined.

Clickies - IMO - should always roll a 1. So that if they are in top slot they are removed first guaranteed. Which feels pretty classic.

Normal Buffs should have rolls weighted based on level. 50+ buffs should be a 6-8 roll. 1-20 buffs should be a 1-4 roll. Etc. Probably should take into account the caster's level and level of the spell. A 60 player casting a 60 buff should almost always be an 8 for example.

That's just how I think this current setup should work to reflect somewhat what we had in classic.

[Rupertox]

Daldaen that seems correct and evidently is stupid that it doesnt dispell jboots and other clickies and gets the buff number 6 (hero) and then next one exactly the same with symbol, not classic at all, and annoying

[Erati]

if they would make clickies never roll a 'buff counter' greater than 1 all this complaining would poof and we would have a much more classic cancel magic/dispell system

[Daldaen]

Comes back to my post made many times.

All clickies, should be a guaranteed dice roll of 1.

Once you do that, people who pay attention to their clickies have no issue until they come up against enchanter mobs with Recant Magic.

[Llodd]

It does you just aren't seeing it that way.

I explained this in a previous post.

1. JBoots (8)
2. Grim Aura (7)
3. Heroic Bond (6)
4. Symbol of Marzin (6)
5. Visions of Grandeur (4)
6. Clarity II (5)
7. Strengthen (1)
8. Resist Magic (4)
9. Resist Cold (2)
10. Resist Fire (2)
11. Regrowth (8)

Imagine you have these buffs, and the (X) is the number of counters each buff has. This is a random roll between 1-8 on every spell.



I've been trying to find the information for how many counters each buff has. Doesnt even seem to be on the lucy raw data.

Where are you getting this info from please?

[Haynar]

Comes back to my post made many times.

All clickies, should be a guaranteed dice roll of 1.

Once you do that, people who pay attention to their clickies have no issue until they come up against enchanter mobs with Recant Magic.
From eqlive, clickies are not guaranteed a 1. The random distribution of higher values could be not so random though. Will do more testing. Takes a lot of patience casting and dispelling buffs over and over. The unfortunate part is it may take a few hours to get enough data to get good enough sample statistics.

Will continue taking data in spare time.

H

[Erati]

From eqlive, clickies are not guaranteed a 1. The random distribution of higher values could be not so random though. Will do more testing. Takes a lot of patience casting and dispelling buffs over and over. The unfortunate part is it may take a few hours to get enough data to get good enough sample statistics.

Will continue taking data in spare time.

H

thank you for this Haynar

and yes thats a good way to go about it bc if clickies indeed can randomly roll to a more powerful counter............ then possibly the higher lvl buffs (50+) should be rolling higher numbers more consistently to off set the random chance you have a clicky with very high buff power counter

[tristantio]

Recently discovered Usenet - also recently discovered a lot of information on old EQ aspects (2001 era) via Google Groups' Usenet Archive.

See some talk about top down dispells vs "random" order here:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/dispel/alt.games.everquest/3CblZ3_P1YA/ZMlANUFAImkJ

I'll post more as I find it.

[Erati]

seems people on that link you posted felt dragon AE dispell was always the top bottom type dispell while cancel magic type can be more random like Haynar created

[tristantio]

Yea, I think the current system is pretty accurate (so far I'm unable to find anything about clickies being limited to a smaller charge #).

This is a much better post about dispel order:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/nullify$20magic/alt.games.everquest/A8kC79EDrnU/CdfXU5UfNcgJ

The TLDR:

Original poster thinks it goes top down (how we used to have it on p99 until patch)
Other posters tell him it dispells oldest buff first, but dragon dispel works uniquely (top down)
Eventually someone tests in-depth (look for the post with a table + data) and finds results matching what we are now using (they give up and decide on non-determinate order, but Daldaen explains way better on our thread)


Edit: Not sure why the auto link didn't work, fixing.

[Haynar]

I have the feeling it is not an equal chance for getting higher random counters. The eqlive RNG is very streaky though. It would be cool if we could reproduce that streakiness. For a more classic experience that is.

H

[Toodles]

TLDR


Mobs spamming dispell all throughout a fight
Can't be interrupted
Even when they 'land' it doesn't always debuff you
When it lands, it takes more than one buff at a time regardless of the buff
When it lands, it takes buffs from lower slots, sometimes 3, sometimes 4, sometimes 6

We have two issues here ;

A) When did this get changed on the server and why specifically? Surely there's a reason for amendments and patches - that information should help us in this case.
B) Removal of buffs from the wrong slots.

[Daldaen]

You have to keep in mind when testing dispels on Live, they have been revamped a few times.

One of them made dispels remove all beneficial effects before they could remove detrimentals. Think another one completely randomized the slots removed.

Testing on live isn't the best bet for dispel mechanics.

What I suggested earlier would create a more classic dispel situation.

Clickies always 1 roll
NPCs have less desire to cast dispels (instead of casting 5+ in a fight).

[Schwing]

As if camping the corrupted shaman in Lake Rathe wasn't annoying enough, they love to dispell, and it lands every time. Had to keep proper junk buffs for all 20 hours