Spell Resist changes

[Lownstar]

I am not sure if this is the right place to post but since the patch i have noticed mobs are resisting spells at a much higher rate. a 44 shaman in COM casting malisement 3 times in a row gets resisted on a blue mob(goo and a greater plaguebone). Root (when it lands) lasts for a few seconds, even if malisement landed first. Not sure if this was intentional but there is a noticeable difference after patch

[Haynar]

There were some adjusts to resist based on level difference. They had a way bigger effect than intended. Changes were removed. Pending update.

There was also some old code left in there for a min resist chance for root and charm. That has also been removed.

Pending update.

[Haynar]

There were some adjusts to resist based on level difference. They had a way bigger effect than intended. Changes were removed. Pending update.

There was also some old code left in there for a min resist chance for root and charm. That has also been removed.

I also found something causing root to break early too much.

Pending update.

[Haynar]

Wow. Edit for the impared.

Stupid phone.

[Lownstar]

thanks for all of your work Haynar, and for the quick response! Let me know if you need more details

[Bierp]

Thanks Haynar.

I had one blue con break paralyzing earth FIVE TIMES in CoM.

I was so discouraged that I actually went and scrubbed the bathtub. My wife was thrilled, I was not. :eek:


Looking forward to the update.

[beev]

Animals in Permafrost are resisting root hard or breaking super early. I'm quite a few levels higher than them.

[Herpa Derp]

Thank you for the information Haymar. I sincerely appreciate the time and work you put in to fix things like this.

[Bboboo]

Thanks Haynar!

Resists were off the wall.

[Erati]

is this something that can get hot fixed ?

bc waiting another 4-5 months for a proper patch to fix root duration is kinda messed up

[Man0warr]

I'm sure they will hot fix it, along with stuns on NPCs not overwriting. Rogean is a busy guy though.

[Erati]

the stuns got fixed with the new V35 I thought

the resists are the reason no Chardok

[Man0warr]

Yeah it's game breaking, I just played my monk all night - enchanter and druid were unplayable solo.

[batmaus]

Thanks a lot for the quick response on this. It was driving me absolutely batty in HHK, high root resists and quick wear offs make that place a death trap unless you play it extremely safe.

I hope not to bother you too much about it Haynar but would we be able to get an ETA on the fix, whether it will be a hot fix (hopefully) or the next standard patch? Need to decide if I should create an alt or just stick it out for a bit :)

Cheers!

[Nirgon]

Everything in PvE feels real classic atm and need more time with this / people chiming in on their experiences before anything knee jerk happens. Specific examples for everyone to try and draw conclusions from would be real nice if you're raising a complaint.


Dragon fear is actually hitting people sometimes =)!

Root was way too strong here, charm way too strong here, mez way too easy here before (all of these issues became especially obvious when trying it on planar trash mobs which were resistant as fuk especially without debuffs). People just got way too used to it.

Haven't checked out Hoshkar AoE yet. Most guilds reported that Hoshkar and PD were opposite of what they were here. That is that PD was pretty challenging and Hoshkar got banged out no prob as long as he didn't gate.

[Man0warr]

Sorry, Fetter breaking on greens after 2 ticks is not classic.

[batmaus]

A lot of it does feel classic but not everything (leaving out the fact that somethings will never and can never be classic).

I slightly disagree with root being to strong and especially not mez (at least screaming terror), can't say anything about charm as I have rarely used it yet on p99. They may have worked a tad better than on classic but not extremely noticeable or that game changing, I would still get resists and they would still break early (especially screaming terror) but now it's borderline broken.

Also, Haynar already posted that some spells, especially root, are being resisted too often and break too early after the patch. It will be fixed next patch.

[Erati]

Hoshkar kicked Ring of Valor's ass the first time we went after him in Classic

it was wipe fest for 4-5 hrs

We focused on getting more disease gear and better strats, downed him after 2 tries when we returned and wiped the floor with the rest of VP without any difficulty on ANY of the other dragons we attempted..... Phara Dar was a joke after dealing with Hosh.

[Man0warr]

Hoshkar AE has a -150 mod, so even with 255 resists you still wouldn't resist it much.

Better strategy is moar DPS, less bad necros/hybrids - also having the puller fade that first AE on incoming is pretty much wipe or no wipe.

[Iumuno]

Everything in PvE feels real classic atm and need more time with this / people chiming in on their experiences before anything knee jerk happens. Specific examples for everyone to try and draw conclusions from would be real nice if you're raising a complaint.


Dragon fear is actually hitting people sometimes =)!

Root was way too strong here, charm way too strong here, mez way too easy here before (all of these issues became especially obvious when trying it on planar trash mobs which were resistant as fuk especially without debuffs). People just got way too used to it.

Haven't checked out Hoshkar AoE yet. Most guilds reported that Hoshkar and PD were opposite of what they were here. That is that PD was pretty challenging and Hoshkar got banged out no prob as long as he didn't gate.

While I'll agree that resists have always been too low before and didn't have a classic feel, the current state is way overboard and doesn't have a classic feel either.

[Nirgon]

Root should definitely have a chance to break instantly on application. I had this happen in the following case too.

Which green mob you use it on is another matter. Some NPCs were innately very magic resistant (as seen when I tested in town guards on eqlive being green/light blue and still very resistant in largely unchanged zones like Felwithe/Grobb guards). Other NPCs were "undercons" like Dorn in Nro. Not every single lvl x npc should be a template of another of the same class.

I've barked up the Sergeant Slate tree 50 times about it :).

[Daldaen]

Hoshkar AE has a -150 mod, so even with 255 resists you still wouldn't resist it much.

Better strategy is moar DPS, less bad necros/hybrids - also having the puller fade that first AE on incoming is pretty much wipe or no wipe.

No AE should have a -Mod. Those were added when they rebalanced the Resist system in PoP:

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020904.html

Looking at that AE in particular:

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=836&source=Live

Note they added that -150 mod on the same day.

[beev]

Even before this extreme resist imbalance, root broke randomly so there is definitely no need for there to be even more chance of resist or breaks. I died prior to this update to a root breaking twice right after application. As it stands now, I waste almost half of my mana pool on charming just one mob and having it attack another because of all the re-charms and root resists that occur. Basically have to play my monk until it is fixed or leveling my druid is going to be gamebreakingly silly.

No one was arguing for higher resists because it didn't feel classic, so why even "fix" what isn't broken?

[kaev]

I can't recall any time on live that roots were as solid vs. non-green mobs as they've been most of the time I've been on p99. I recall the return of root+snare stacking during Velious causing great rejoicing amongst Druids, Rangers, Necros, & ShadowKnights. And it wasn't just about solo play, root then snare was not uncommon CC in dungeon groups, root usually broke while killing a mob so the snare prevented runners and allowed for fear kiting when that happened.

[Sakir]

i have died more to charm breaks in last 2 days then in last 2 months PLEASE HELP US!

[Lownstar]

Haynar- if you have time can you post something on what the intended result was? I don't remember exactly how effective root/charm/slow was back in the day. But I didn't think it was as unreliable as it is now even with a debuff like mala/tash. The way it is now I can go from FM to oom on one mob trying to get debuff and slow or root to land

[Man0warr]

No AE should have a -Mod. Those were added when they rebalanced the Resist system in PoP:

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020904.html

Looking at that AE in particular:

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=836&source=Live

Note they added that -150 mod on the same day.

Lucy doesn't go far back enough, but in place of the "Resist Adjust" spell mod there was another mod in the spell dat that was basically Lure(#) - the # could be anything from 1 to 9 I believe and the exact resist adjustment was calculated somewhere else.

During the resist overhaul you mentioned they changed how this was displayed in the spell data to the Resistadj mod but Dragon AEs and fears were definitely "Lures" well before this patch.

Edit:

If you don't believe me, check out the history for Dragon Fear on the Test server, some other dragon AEs have similar modifications (The Hoshkar one probably had its changes made on Test before Lucy started cataloging changes):

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=789&source=Test

2002-08-22 10:10 Removed Slot 1: Lure(6)
2002-08-22 10:10 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -200

Basically you can conclude that Lure(6) was equivalent to -200 resist adjust in the previous system.

[Ambrouis]

I'm having a lot more issues with root lately (after the patch that fixed it) The same forest giants I was killing before are breaking root 150% more than before. I understand it has always had a chance, but I have never seen this many early breaks immediately after casting. I'm 46 and the giants are 42 if that matters. I was also hearing a 54 shaman, 56 cleric, and 57 druid were having trouble rooting in lcy in my group. (after today's patch)

[Daldaen]

Lucy doesn't go far back enough, but in place of the "Resist Adjust" spell mod there was another mod in the spell dat that was basically Lure(#) - the # could be anything from 1 to 9 I believe and the exact resist adjustment was calculated somewhere else.

During the resist overhaul you mentioned they changed how this was displayed in the spell data to the Resistadj mod but Dragon AEs and fears were definitely "Lures" well before this patch.

Edit:

If you don't believe me, check out the history for Dragon Fear on the Test server, some other dragon AEs have similar modifications (The Hoshkar one probably had its changes made on Test before Lucy started cataloging changes):

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=789&source=Test



Basically you can conclude that Lure(6) was equivalent to -200 resist adjust in the previous system.

I was aware of the Lure component, but the Diseased Cloud AE doesn't have that.

The change to the resist code was September 2002. That Lure swap for Fear was August 2002.

Lucy started March 2002. I fail to believe the Diseased Cloud had its Lure removed and replaced with -150 resist adjust 6 months before the patch.

Also the effect you linked is Dragon Fear. The AE they are listed as using is Dragon Roar (which had no Lure component), this is the effect used today on these dragons. Unsure if they swapped these effects at some point, but Alla has the Old School + Kunark dragons using Dragon Roar (no Lure mod) and the Velious dragons using Dragon Fear (Lure mod). On live today:

[Sat Nov 01 13:34:43 2014] Lady Vox begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Sat Nov 01 13:34:43 2014] You resist the Dragon Roar spell!
[Sat Nov 01 13:35:20 2014] Lady Vox begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Sat Nov 01 13:35:59 2014] Lady Vox begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Sat Nov 01 13:35:59 2014] You resist the Dragon Roar spell!

[Sun Nov 23 14:00:40 2014] Lord Nagafen begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Sun Nov 23 14:00:40 2014] You resist the Dragon Roar spell!
[Sun Nov 23 14:01:18 2014] Lord Nagafen begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Sun Nov 23 14:01:55 2014] Lord Nagafen begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>
[Sun Nov 23 14:02:31 2014] Lord Nagafen begins to cast a spell. <Dragon Roar>

They use Roar.

[Man0warr]

The lure component exists in this timeline for Dragon fears and (most) dragon AEs, but Lucy obviously has missed out on some of the modifications during the resist overhaul.

Check out Dragon Roar from the Trilogy client spell dat file:

789^Dragon Roar^PLAYER_1^^^ lets loose a mighty roar.^You flee in terror.^^You are no longer afraid.^0^300^0^0^0^0^36000^7^3^0^0^-6^1^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^400^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^ 2 507^2116^-1^-1^-1^-1^1^1^1^1^-1^-1^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^ 0^0^0^1^10^23^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^ 254^4^0^52^-1^0^0^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61 ^43^13^0^13^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^10 0^0^154^0

Note the bolded part.

Now compared to Rain of Cold with a -100 resist check on Lucy:

Lucy:
2002-09-04 11:33 Removed Slot 1: Lure(4)
2002-09-04 11:33 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -100

Trilogy client spell file:

1487^Rain of Cold^PLAYER_1^^^Calls forth a circle of frozen shards above you.^Frozen shards slice into your skin.^^^150^300^0^0^0^0^12000^0^0^7500^0^-4^-300^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^25 15^2063^-1^-1^-1^-1^1^1^1^1^-1^-1^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^100^ 0^0^0^3^10^0^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^254^2 54^4^0^24^-1^0^0^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61^61 ^44^13^0^3^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^0^100 ^0^116^0

You can conclude just by comparing these two spell dat entries that Dragon Roar had Lure(-6) in the Velious client.

You can also conclude from this that the Lure system is multiples of 25 - example Lure(-4) is -100 and Lure(-6) is -150.

So if Lucy doesn't show Dragon Roar as ever having a Lure component in it's change log, then either A) the change took place before Lucy was recording modifications or B) it just missed it (this is a common occurrence if I recall correctly) - so it's safe to say that Hoshkar's AE did have a Lure component on it on Classic (and Lucy doesn't have a record of the change from Lure -> Resist Adjust) and definitely DOES have a Lure (or resist adjust) component on it right now on P99.

Point being - don't trust Lucy as gospel for all things to do with spells - we have copies of the actual spell dat files available to us from Velious.

Edit: I just wasted a bunch of time cracking off spell dat file and realized Alunova already did this research 5 months ago O.o

[Daldaen]

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=1642&source=Live

2002-09-04 11:33 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -300
2002-09-04 11:33 Changed Deletable from 0 to 1
2002-09-04 11:33 Removed Slot 1: Lure(5)

In this case Lure 5 = -300. Meaning it is multiples of 60... So that isn't always consistent.

And I agree with you, the Velious dragon fear had a Lure 6:

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=789&source=Live

Date Change
2002-09-04 11:33 Changed Resistadj from 0 to -150
2002-09-04 11:33 Removed Slot 1: Lure(6)
2007-07-05 13:28 Changed Name from Dragon Roar to Dragon Fear

It is called Dragon Fear in Lucy but it's called Dragon Roar in classic. Note it has the same spell ID, 789. This is the one Wuoshi is listed as casting for example.

Look up the classic/Kunark dragon fear. That's the one Naggy/Vox and the Kunark Dragons cast. Dragon Roar ID 981

Lucy claims it has no negative mod and no history of Lure.

I do find the VP dragon AEs peculiar. 4 of the 6 have -150 mods. None of them have Lures in their history.

[Man0warr]

Someone would have to look the other 2 VP dragon AEs up in the spell dat file on the CD to be sure, but I assume that's what the devs are using for this server.

[Daldaen]

Thought they were using a spell data file pulled from an old Harddrive.

But these spell files have proven inaccurate for unknown reasons. Plenty of spell changes have been bug posted and verified recently, so they aren't exactly infallible.

My whole point though was, that having Lures on dragon AEs in Classic and Kunark makes no sense. Resist gear is very weak, people wouldn't be able to resist much at all with -150 on Nagafen's fear back in the day. People would all effectively have 0 resists unless with a baed against these AEs and that simply wasn't the case.

Velious starts to make more sense when gear gets better and they want to make mobs harder. VP I'm still kinda iffy on. I'd tend to lean towards those resist mods being added without them having any lures in the first place (since literally none of those AEs' histories in Lucy show that and Lucy is pretty damn accurate for the history... They would parse every spell file after every patch and run a comparison to see changes I think). Gorenaire's AE I don't quite get either as it has a -150 mod. Pretty sure people talked about it being not too bad to resist back then too.

[Man0warr]

Who says they were meant to be resisted? VP was the pinnacle of raiding in Kunark, and most servers never even had a guild clear it until after Velious. That's the whole point of the Lure/Resist Adjust mod, to increase difficulty - With 255 cap it was easy enough with a bard to reach that with even token resist gear. The biggest determiner of resist is level difference - even with 255 resist and no resist mod you wouldn't resist every AE from a 66 (in case of VP dragons) or level 70 mob.

The fights in VP wouldn't be difficult at all if you could resist Hoshkar's AE even 50% of the time.

[Daldaen]

The people who talk about getting resist gear being crucial back in the day for success on those fights.

Hoshkar's for example people got destroyed by but once they gathered up some disease resist gear they wrecked him.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10799&highlight=Hoshkar+disease

Mentions 200-250 resists leading to semi-reliable resists.

With a -150 check that would mean they were getting semi-reliable resists as non-60s (most of these posters are mid-high 50s at that point) against 66 dragons with an effective 50-100 Resist. Doesn't see to add up with that resist check being in there.

[Haynar]

The people who talk about getting resist gear being crucial back in the day for success on those fights.

Hoshkar's for example people got destroyed by but once they gathered up some disease resist gear they wrecked him.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10799&highlight=Hoshkar+disease

Mentions 200-250 resists leading to semi-reliable resists.

With a -150 check that would mean they were getting semi-reliable resists as non-60s (most of these posters are mid-high 50s at that point) against 66 dragons with an effective 50-100 Resist. Doesn't see to add up with that resist check being in there.
Against a level 66 mob, 200-250 resists are gonna get owned with a -150 resist adjust.

With 0 resist adjust, at 60, gonna be about 30% to 50% (ish) resist rate for 200-250 resists, based on level differences.

H

[Daldaen]

Against a level 66 mob, 200-250 resists are gonna get owned with a -150 resist adjust.

With 0 resist adjust, at 60, gonna be about 30% to 50% (ish) resist rate for 200-250 resists, based on level differences.

H

This is why I am under the impression those AEs did not have a Lure component, also Lucy gives no indication in its history that those 4 VP AEs had a Lure (very peculiar that it would miss those 4 AEs all together). Same with Gore's AE (only Kunark Dragon to have a -150 outside VP... Fay/Sev/Tal are all 0 resist mod).

[Man0warr]

Lucy is not infallible. They are using a spdat file from the era, those values are correct whatever they are.

[Daldaen]

Lucy is not infallible. They are using a spdat file from the era, those values are correct whatever they are.

Except they aren't.

See Breath of Ro, Winged Death, Glamour of Tunare, Levant, Quivering Veil, Intensify Death, Splurt, etc.

All of those were bugged, proven non-classic and the spell data was changed accordingly.

[Raev]

Against a level 66 mob, 200-250 resists are gonna get owned with a -150 resist adjust.

With 0 resist adjust, at 60, gonna be about 30% to 50% (ish) resist rate for 200-250 resists, based on level differences.

H

Haynar, I did a bit of quick googling for you.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10824 is a fucking gold mine:

Just curious how other guilds are handling Talendor, I find him to be a fun/interesting dragon to hunt, so I thought I would share what I know so far, as well as post a few questions.

First of all, resists, I dont know...this is beginning to confuse me more and more. Yesterday, for the first time in a while, i had a bard grouped with me. My MR was 308, FR 290. At level 57, with resists this high, I still was only resisting about one in 3 waves of either fear or the dot.


Did Sev last night.

Ran PR/MR at 230(ish) each.

Resisted everything.

I dont think Im going to cross 255 again.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10855

In Hall of Test, the wurms usually has 2 AEs. They hit me full almost all the time with about 100 resist at Lv60. At 130 to 150s resist, the weak AE always can't hit full, but the strong one still hit full most of time. At 200 or so resist, all of their AE almost never hit me full.
Seems resistant is kinda useless for Lv60 or so mobs AEs if you are lower than Lv58. I noticed a big different on trakanon's AE at between Lv57 and Lv58.

So basically I think resists here are still tuned way, way too hard. A L60 PC with 255 resists should be near immune to non-lure spells from a L60 NPC, and mostly resist even a L66 PC. Everyone considered these Kunark raid mobs to be jokes. Of course, if we want to make things a bit harder here . . . :)

Also, it's worth noting how EVERYONE keeps talking level level level. If you aren't 60 (of course, thanks to ChardokAE, who is not 60?) you should be getting destroyed. The flip side to this is I bet at 100+ you should be nearly immune to xp mobs like krups.

[Colgate]

zoned into plane of fear, had 237 MR, got immediately ghoul rooted by a turmoil toad

never seen this happen before

[Haynar]

There is a goldmine of data out there.

I am going through old parses now prior to the big pop nerf.

Have made some changes to client AC, and looking great compared to parses. Boosts are mainly 51+.

Also have made changes for clients vs npcs, getting a bump in dps. This is to make up for reduction in double attack and dual weild rates.

I am lowering the debuff bonus to 50%. Current Root cap is at 90. Havent decided where to take it. With debuf consideration I am thinking 80 or 70. Maybe split diff and go for 75.

Doing parses and comparing to old data.

The AC improvements are looking good at first glance. Did about 4 hrs of parsing so far. Mostly with a monk so far. Get that AC up and they are beasts.

I hope the AC changes look good in PvP. Will take a lot more parsing to see.

H

[Colgate]

There is a goldmine of data out there.

I am going through old parses now prior to the big pop nerf.

Have made some changes to client AC, and looking great compared to parses. Boosts are mainly 51+.

Also have made changes for clients vs npcs, getting a bump in dps. This is to make up for reduction in double attack and dual weild rates.

I am lowering the debuff bonus to 50%. Current Root cap is at 90. Havent decided where to take it. With debuf consideration I am thinking 80 or 70. Maybe split diff and go for 75.

Doing parses and comparing to old data.

The AC improvements are looking good at first glance. Did about 4 hrs of parsing so far. Mostly with a monk so far. Get that AC up and they are beasts.

I hope the AC changes look good in PvP. Will take a lot more parsing to see.

H

AC changes and hitbox changes have put melees much more in line with how strong they're supposed to be

when the root/snare/blind/stun/mez/debuff situation gets fixed, the only real glaring issue i see remaining is that rogue poisons are landing like crazy

[Haynar]

Already tweaked the poison resists. Havent tested yet though.

4 hrs of researching data, web pages, posts. 2 hrs of planning, calculations. Plotting charts and values in spreadsheets. 2 hrs of various code changes. 20 hrs of testing and parses.

Now thats what we call fun boys and girls.

H

[quido]

now cross your fingers and pray you didn't break like 10 other things

[Colgate]

Already tweaked the poison resists. Havent tested yet though.

4 hrs of researching data, web pages, posts. 2 hrs of planning, calculations. Plotting charts and values in spreadsheets. 2 hrs of various code changes. 20 hrs of testing and parses.

Now thats what we call fun boys and girls.

H

pras

[46290]

Just wanted to add my findings, non-scientific and anecdotal as they are.

I was bard-kiting in LoIO today, level 54. I was kiting mid-20s Goblins/Sarnaks/Iksar/everything.

The casters would continually try to dispel and root. Root stuck WAY more often than I would have thought.

Kiting ~70 mobs with ~15-20 casters.

~100MR (resist gear) ... I was getting rooted every 2nd or 3rd root cast.
~150MR (resist gear + GRM) ... I was getting rooted every 3rd or 4th cast.
~190MR (resist gear + GRM + bard song) ... I was getting rooted every 4th or 5th cast.

Those numbers seem way off to me for a level 54 to have mobs ~30 levels lower landing spells that often with that much MR.

These casts didn't last very long, 1-4 ticks at most, but either way, they shouldn't be sticking in the first place.

[Nirgon]

Root spells (all of them in their line, minus Tunare's) should be extremely easy to resist. Call it 70mr from even con target = no roots/snares.

[46290]

So last night I was in LoIO again, and its the goblins there.

I had >200MR from GRM/resist gear/bard song, and at level 54, I was having root stick on me from level 20s mobs.

This HAS to be broken.

[Fysts]

Root is broken. Got rooted at level 60 by a level 30 frog in lower guk. Firstly no spell they cast should land, yet their root was landing almost every time. Dunno if its because its an innate proc or what.