Chardok AE not classic

[Raev]

Only difference is we used to do 30-50 mobs at once (with a single group) instead of ~130 on this server, but that was purely because the server/our computers couldn't handle more.

This was how Chardok was done before the revamp - because the zone sucked balls and the only good drops were purely random.

Copying and pasting my post from RNF:

Let's do some quick math. Every time you cast on a mob, the server must send that message to every PC in the vicinity ("xxx is stunned by scintillating colors" etc). Let's make some assumptions: 2 enchanters casting 1 spell every 2 seconds, 2 wizards casting 1 spell every 6 seconds. That's 1.3 spells per second. With 150 mobs, that's 200 messages per second. If each message is 64 bytes (reasonable with protocol overhead), that's 12.8KB/s of bandwidth for spell messages alone, let alone the position packets etc. Meanwhile a 56kbps modem can handle only 7KB/s of bandwidth.

The same math with 40 mobs: 55 * 64 = just over 3 KB/s, which leaves about half of the bandwidth for the other stuff (reasonable).

Chardok AE is, to quote Obiwan Kenobi, a wretched hive of scum and villainy (and RMT). Limiting them to 40 mobs per pull would probably put most of them out of business.

[Daldaen]

Pretty sure in classic you could disable all those messages. Even with the FANTASTIC classic UI with a single chatbox.

[quido]

Maybe live EQ was smart enough to have some "effect applied to an entire group of mobs" system that limited the amount of data sent when dealing with a lot of crap. I've often thought about this when desyncs in fear occur because 100 people are camping in and out and 150 mobs are getting kited.

[Byrjun]

Still not a bug, and feels more appropriate for RNF.

P99 is not going to replicate 56k modems. Not only because that's silly, but also because DSL and cable internet were available years before EQ was released, they just weren't very widespread yet.

[Ele]

P99 is not going to replicate 56k modems. Not only because that's silly, but also because DSL and cable internet were available years before EQ was released, they just weren't very widespread yet.

Indeed, cable modems were specific requirements for membership in some of the top tier uber guilds.

[Ele]

Chardok AoE

2002:
http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?6083/page&

I realize some people here advertise that they routinely pull 30-40 mobs, but the XP flies and great fun is had by all -- even on the smaller pulls.

In Chardok, we pull 14-18 per pull to the nook near the zone-in. There are two right angles there; the one we use is the one behind the herald as you look in. Just pull to there, use Thunderclap to mush them all into the corner, and nuke until dead.

Normally, we do two pulls, pulling any three of:
Bridge
Gate house (normally do together with bridge, but this puller can die easily due to multiple harm touches)
Tunnel (the one you need levitate to get into from the wrong way)
Zone out
Zone in

We do this routinely with a group of 52-55. Two enchanters since there are many resists. Wizards chain Thunderclap and Jyll's (Tclap mainly to keep them bunched in the corner). From what I understand, this is even easier if you have most of your group 56+. As it was, we do quite well and have never had a wipeout. However, we have had a couple dead wizard pullers, and one time both enchanters died; the only reason the rest of the group lived was because the last enchanter's last stun nailed the mobs posthumously, and all three wizards fired very shortly thereafter. It was great fun!

Our group often resembles this:
51 cleric
52 enchanter
55/56 enchanter
55 wizard
54 wizard
53 wizard (me, but now I'm 54 too!)

The two chanters is a really, really big help, as resists on these buggers pre-55 are kind of painful. You're occasionally wrapping level 47-49 mobs into your AE as well, so it can be rough when you get down to that last mob, but a Harvest and a few single nukes later you got it.

Chardok -- lots of resists and stuns, unmanageable past 20 unless you stick to the entrance, but then you can't find more than 15 mobs anyway.

2001 (Pre-Luclin)
http://www.graffe.com/forums/showthread.php?5883-AE-Groups-for-Sorcerers

Chardok
Very fun place to AE. You will never run out of mobs to pull, can use other AE tricks (like Fearing one so it brings back 30 others) and the loot/plat/xp is also excellent. Can AE right down to royals as well if your group can handle it. Fast repops, some HT's and alot of named piled in the trains can cause messy CR's.

[khanable]

Manowarr makes shit up. FWIW. He's got a reputation for that in BDA lol

Anyway, if you want chardok ae gone the best way to do it is to dig up more exact numbers on lazy aggro. That other thread was PACKED full of good links to get you started.

[zanderklocke]

Posted in the RnF thread:

So I've read that you can't have more than 4 mobs aggro solo, internet connections couldn't handle large pulls, and that mobs had weird rubber band aggro that caused them to disengage if you got too far away.

So what is classic in terms of pulling lots of mobs?

I'm curious how bards AoE kited and charm kited if there are limits into how many mobs a person can aggro or if mobs only hold rubber band aggro?

Internet connections disrupting pulls seems the most plausible to me, but I'd like to see evidence of the others.

[Raev]

Pretty sure in classic you could disable all those messages. Even with the FANTASTIC classic UI with a single chatbox.

Probably you still get the packets, though - the client just isn't displaying them.

Maybe live EQ was smart enough to have some "effect applied to an entire group of mobs" system that limited the amount of data sent when dealing with a lot of crap. I've often thought about this

I'm not sure how this would work anyway if some fraction of the mobs resist. I'm sure it would be possible to do some sort of compression, but was Verant really doing this on their Pentium Pro 200s? Verdict: unlikely.

Still not a bug, and feels more appropriate for RNF.

P99 is not going to replicate 56k modems. Not only because that's silly, but also because DSL and cable internet were available years before EQ was released, they just weren't very widespread yet.

Bugs and flames rolls on.

Anyway, if you read Elethia's posts its clear that back in the day people were AEing 25-30 mobs at a time, not 130. Considering the huge negative impact Chardok has on the server in terms of RMT, disrupting a zone, and raid scene alt campage, I think what I have is enough. If Lord Nilbog disagrees, that's up to him of course.

Or we can move this thread to RNF and really let loose!

[Man0warr]

Manowarr makes shit up. FWIW. He's got a reputation for that in BDA lol

Anyway, if you want chardok ae gone the best way to do it is to dig up more exact numbers on lazy aggro. That other thread was PACKED full of good links to get you started.

Nah I did it firsthand in the tunnel ent left of the castle. Lazy aggro was real but it didn't stop the unaggro mobs from getting stunned or taking damage, and it was exploitable.

[Rais]

AOE groups were classic. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it non classic. Deal with it.

[Ele]

AOE groups were classic. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it non classic. Deal with it.

People aren't doubting the existence of AE groups, but rather the capabilities and/or aggro mechanics allowing for the enormous single puller pulls in Chardok.

[khanable]

Nah I did it firsthand in the tunnel ent left of the castle. Lazy aggro was real but it didn't stop the unaggro mobs from getting stunned or taking damage, and it was exploitable.

What?

[Tuffpuppy]

Does nobody else remember if you had too many NPC's agro on you some of them would wander away? Or am I going crazy here.

[khanable]

Does nobody else remember if you had too many NPC's agro on you some of them would wander away? Or am I going crazy here.

This was very much a thing. Called lazy aggro. There were several threads about it already tho

[Latege]

AOE groups were classic. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it non classic. Deal with it.

AoE groups of 20 mobs were classic, not 100.

[EQsale]

Does nobody else remember if you had too many NPC's agro on you some of them would wander away? Or am I going crazy here.

I too remember it this way and when you go back around that area not even within eye sight they would come flying at you outta the blue if you didnt zone prior too coming back around there side of the map.

[Foggon]

Too late. The damage has already been done.

[jpetrick]

loraen shut up

[Raev]

Too late. The damage has already been done.

This is probably true, but the Real Project 1999 will start at some point, hopefully without sneak/FD exploits, invis pull exploits, aoe exploits, duping exploits, etc.

[Byrjun]

Please explain what exploit is being used.