Enchanter INT vs CHA Question

[MaSQue]

Trying to find out where I need to get my stats at on ym Enchanter. I have one on Red99 now and am curious where I should get a soft cap on CHA? I was told once to get CHA to 200, then start working on INT. I want to have a solid mana pool but I want my charms to hold as well. Any Help?

[beel]

Hi,

I am wondering about the same. Created my enchanter a couple of weeks back and put all base points into CHA following the same "CHA to 200" advice you have gotten, as I wanted charms to hold.

I am now wondering I should not have done this. Reading line 1237 through 1241 https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/master/zone/aggro.cpp#L1237 it seems that CHA does not affect duration of the charm, but simply just the initial resist chance of the spell. Am I misunderstanding something?

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

I noticed a big difference at 200 and a smaller but noticeable difference from 200-255.

I have 255 with my cha gear on and 215 with my regular gear on. I'd say if it's the difference between sub-200 and int gear, go with 200 cha as early charm breaks are likely to have a noticeable effect and negate your deeper mana pool.

[Iumuno]

Hi,

I am wondering about the same. Created my enchanter a couple of weeks back and put all base points into CHA following the same "CHA to 200" advice you have gotten, as I wanted charms to hold.

I am now wondering I should not have done this. Reading line 1237 through 1241 https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/master/zone/aggro.cpp#L1237 it seems that CHA does not affect duration of the charm, but simply just the initial resist chance of the spell. Am I misunderstanding something?

These are live parsing, and yes that's how it was on live back then, which made CHA useless for charming as any mob that could straight up resist charm wouldn't last more than a few ticks anyway.

However it seems to be different on p1999. From casual observation, I will concur and say that CHA seems to have a significant impact on charm duration.

[Polyphemous]

The only times i get an initial resist on charm is if the mob is too high of a level for that charm (52+ for allure.)

About the only time I run low on mana is if I get a bad string of charm breaks shortly after rebuffing. So even if the marginal increase is less after 200 cha I still prioritize cha over int.

My understanding of how charm duration works is that every tick there are 3 checks: MR, lvl vs lvl, and charisma. The mob has to make all 3 checks in order to break charm. This is why if you are charming a green you don't need a very high charisma, but if you are charming something on the edge of danger you need every bit you can get because the mob is probably making its lvl check every time and MR is a crap shoot.

[MaSQue]

Working on my CHA gear and am only at 168 CHA lol, how in the world do we get it to 200+ without being planar? Would appreciate some items to be listed to kinda help us newer Chanters on our way.

I currently have the follow CHA gear .........
+9 CHA Necklace
2x +7 Wrists
2x +7 Rings
a Mask with +8 CHA on it
Head with +13 CHA
Ishva Robr +5 CHA
Loam Boots +8 CHA
Rod with +12 CHA

Current Stats Are: INT 150 CHA 178
Still missing 2x Ears (Will prolly get 2x Crafter CHA Earrings) and legs plus a Ranged item.
Where do I wanna be with INT to be able to have the Mana Pool to keep the group safe with CC and buffs etc etc? Whats a good number for INT?

Where do i go from here guys?

[Man0warr]

You don't need to be over 200 unbuffed - you have a buff that gives +50 CHA at 56.

If you are still leveling up solo, ditch INT for CHA so you can get 200 buffed.

Some other high CHA items are Rod of Insidious Glamour for main hand, and Crude Stein for Offhand.

I'd also ditch those rings for 55 HP.

[MaSQue]

You don't need to be over 200 unbuffed - you have a buff that gives +50 CHA at 56.

If you are still leveling up solo, ditch INT for CHA so you can get 200 buffed.

Some other high CHA items are Rod of Insidious Glamour for main hand, and Crude Stein for Offhand.

I'd also ditch those rings for 55 HP.


The first CHA buff I get is +18 so I guess I need to get it to at least 182 so the buff gets me to 200 even, I only got 16 more CHA to go, gonna get 10 of that with the 2x Earrings. and if can ever find Drake Legs that gives me 15/16. I might have to adjust gear to get the extra points. Already trying to find a Rod as we speak and oh lord why would I drop my CHA Rings ..... It's hard enough to get CHA up as it is for me and that 100 extra health should not make THAT big of a difference. Also whats the better Ranged item for Enchanter?

Current Stats "now" Are: INT 151 CHA 183
Will this work through mid levels? Will I have a decent enough supply of mana for grouping? I am sure my CHA is now fine once I hit 20 and get my CHA buff.

[Man0warr]

110 extra hp is huge - solo, grouping, any situation.

Rod/Crude Stein will easily make up for the CHA you lose from rings.

[MaSQue]

Think I'll be ok, so far haven't had any problems or issues. Just need to get to 20 now and see how the Charming goes, thinking will be tons of fun, never did that before.

[Vermicelli]

CHA has a huge impact on your charm duration, and if you aren't used to charming mobs by the mid-L30's, you are letting a significant portion of group Damage-Per-Second slide right off your buttocks. From a different, lovable thread some years ago:

Ok so I grabbed a cleric (thanks Kriven) and charmed goos in COM, and the results were very striking.

First, I found a pet who was just on the cusp of charming viability. At level 52 I grabbed a goo hitting for 116. Prior to this we tried a goo hitting for 120 but even with full charisma gear could not keep it charmed with duration good enough to exp reliably. This choice was intentional, because what I really care about is keeping the best mob I can for as long as I can. I'm sure results would be very different for a light blue mob. On every break the mob was tashed and re-charmed. I just pulled all the data out of my log file after our session and crunched it all using excel. results are as follows:

High Charisma dataset (CHA = 224)
Time of trial: 0:40:18 (or 0.672 hours)
Breaks: 7
Breaks per hour(extrapolated): 10.42
Avg Duration: 5.76 minutes
Median Duration: 3 minutes 10 seconds

Low Charisma dataset (CHA = 95)
Time of trial: 0:58:04 (0.968 hours)
Breaks: 25
Breaks per hour(extrapolated): 25.83
Avg Duration: 2.32 minutes
Median Duration: 1 minute 4 seconds

So conclusion -- charisma has a massive effect on charm duration when charming mobs at the high end of the "viable pet level" spectrum at level 52 in this dataset. In this case, I had almost 2.5 times more breaks per hour (10 to 25) with 95 charisma vs. my normal charisma of 224. This translated into more than doubling my charm durations on average (2.32 minutes with low charisma boosted up to 5.76 minutes with 224 cha). Even with a few caveats discussed below, I'd say the numbers speak for themselves. The cleric I worked with (who didn't specifically know which data set was which) pretty much figured out within three minutes when I had pulled off my charisma gear, and didn't even want to keep going as it was so clear cut. I forced him to deal with my lower charisma for another 55 minutes.

In a group situation, if you are doing your job keeping your pet charmed, keeping adds locked down with mez, and keeping your mates hasted and claritied, you probably won't be regenerating to full mana, so, though it is helpful at the beginning of a fight, a larger mana pool shouldn't be your primary goal.

[MaSQue]

Very Helpful, thank you. :)

[MaSQue]

Another Question .............

So I am new with this Enchanter stuff, at 50+ what will I better off have gone in specialization? I am thinking end game here, which skill will I be better off having specialized in?

[Man0warr]

Alteration

[MaSQue]

Alteration

why that over Anj for Buffing or Conj for CC?

[Malrubius]

Chanters on this server are one of the least classic-like classes. In classic, int was king, and cha nice to have but hardly game-changing. Here it's all about cha. Go all cha and don't look back. And remember mana is also > int until much later levels.

I agree though that no class can start with much better than the 5/55 rings.

[Man0warr]

why that over Anj for Buffing or Conj for CC?

Because like 85% of Enchanter spells are Alteration - you will save way more mana specializing that. You'll be casting spells like Tash, Stun, Charm, Clarity, Slow, Haste, etc way more than CC spells.

I agree though that no class can start with much better than the 5/55 rings.

Yep - items with HP on them are some of the highest priced in the game (BCG, Hiero Cloak, etc) and it's a very rare stat at this point of Everquest timeline.

55hp rings are super cheap in that regard.

[NegaStoat]

A big thanks to A1551, the unnamed cleric, and vermicelli for the above post about charisma affecting charm. I recently rolled an enchanter to toy with the class, and when I was trying out charm at level 14 I was really disappointed with the results. I see now that reaching the 200 cha mark as a minimum as quickly as I can will make a tremendous difference for my leveling experience enjoyment.

[Tuljin]

I have spoken with some Enchanters who have done some painstaking research with charm duration and they have said that the checks, in order of importance, are lvl to lvl, MR, and CHA a distant third.

From the sounds of it there is negligible difference between around 200 charisma and 255 charisma when talking about charm duration at high levels.

Any comments?

[Man0warr]

It's slightly noticeable going from 200 to 255, but getting to 200 is the biggest break point - much like the other stats it can be considered the soft cap.

[MaSQue]

Current Stats "now" Are: INT 151 CHA 183

This is where I am at now due to money constrictions, but at level 20, my buffs brings me 200+ so I should be fine until I get into the better CHA buffs, least that is my hope.

[wwoneo]

Trying to find out where I need to get my stats at on ym Enchanter. I have one on Red99 now and am curious where I should get a soft cap on CHA? I was told once to get CHA to 200, then start working on INT. I want to have a solid mana pool but I want my charms to hold as well. Any Help?

If you're level 60, I would suggest you get 200CHA and then get HP items (or HP/Mana items) for the rest of your gear. You'll need the hitpoints! To be frank the INT is nearly useless as you won't need to extend your mana pool, especially with theft of thought. However, you will need a deeper HP pool in almost all situations.

[Vicatin]

If you're level 60, I would suggest you get 200CHA and then get HP items (or HP/Mana items) for the rest of your gear. You'll need the hitpoints! To be frank the INT is nearly useless as you won't need to extend your mana pool, especially with theft of thought. However, you will need a deeper HP pool in almost all situations.

200+ cha with black saph earrings, neck, and +55hp rings is a good goal

[Pint]

Didn't read thread so not sure how useful my testimonial is but I play my 60 enchanter with 203int and 195cha unbuffed (I never remove my mana robe or bracer of hidden despite having loam bracer and planar robe in bags). After thousands of hours of play I simply don't feel like hitting 255cha makes any real difference from my 245 with overwhelming splendor, my mana is roughly ~2830 or ~2950 with enlightenment which I also don't typically bother casting. I've definitely solo'd/duo'd almost everything of interest on this server multiple times (in some cases too many times to keep count). Basically I'm saying get roughly 200 cha then try to get your int to balance out at ~200. This will be very hard until you can acquire your insidious gear and your posky quest items.

[maurilax]

Didn't read thread so not sure how useful my testimonial is but I play my 60 enchanter with 203int and 195cha unbuffed (I never remove my mana robe or bracer of hidden despite having loam bracer and planar robe in bags). After thousands of hours of play I simply don't feel like hitting 255cha makes any real difference from my 245 with overwhelming splendor, my mana is roughly ~2830 or ~2950 with enlightenment which I also don't typically bother casting. I've definitely solo'd/duo'd almost everything of interest on this server multiple times (in some cases too many times to keep count). Basically I'm saying get roughly 200 cha then try to get your int to balance out at ~200. This will be very hard until you can acquire your insidious gear and your posky quest items.

255 vs 245 cha is worth it when trying to calm a room of 4+ HT mobs in HS. But otherwise agree

[Pint]

255 vs 245 cha is worth it when trying to calm a room of 4+ HT mobs in HS. But otherwise agree

I honestly never noticed a difference and I've done my fair share of hs south/east solo/duo etc

[Gimp]

I have 240 cha in my standard gear, and can switch an item or two and be at 255. It's weird, I feel like the higher my cha, the more crit resists I get. I know people right around 200 cha that seem to have much better luck on crit resists in HS.

Maybe I'm just unlucky though?

[Pint]

I'm not sure, I would need to see hard numbers to be convinced that an extra 10-15 cha made any real difference

[williestargell]

The area that charisma makes the most difference is crit resists on lulls. If you're going to be lulling in HS as a chanter I'd be as close to 255 as possible because one failure is probably a death.