Public Raid Petitions: P99 Freedom of Information Act

[Frieza_Prexus]

Over the years there have been numerous calls that all raid related petitions be made public. Recently, Sirken commented (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1683092&postcount=311) that petitions will be made public should Rogean and Nilbog make it so. This thread is a chance for the community to come together and request that this change be implemented.

Why make petitions public?

1) Public petitions prevent allegations of backdoor dealing.

2) Open petitions will force petitioners to clearly and concisely explain the situation and what resolution they believe should occur.

3) The written, and archival, nature of open petitions will create a catalog of cases and rulings for players and the staff to draw upon to create more consistent and fair rulings for all players.

4) Open petitions will drastically reduce the work load of all parties involved. Because the petitions must be written on the forum, there will be no “ex parte” communications, vent conversations, and constant PMs.

Possible issues with open petitions

Public petitions are not without a few problems. First, there is no currently established procedure. The petitioner, the defendant, and the GMs should have a formal procedure established, or there will be no organization and the system will collapse. Secondly, this is a change from a system that some have grown comfortable with and it will require effort to switch over.

Summary

This is an important issue that I believe most guilds on the server can get behind. Open petitions are fair, consistent, and organized. They prevent allegations of bias and impropriety, and their written and organized nature is far more appropriate than countless PMs, Skype conversations, and other forms of communication that can give rise to the appearance of impropriety.

I hope this thread will be a discussion of the topic that will draw the attention and eventual agreement of the server staff.

[Swish]

oh boy, take a seat pals...

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Dis-Gun-Be-Gud-Bear-Chair.gif

[khanable]

I'm all for it

Though I'll admit, I'm mostly for it simply because I know it'll be amazingly entertaining

and THAT's when the offenders touched our Trakanon on his no-no dragon bits!

[Frieza_Prexus]

oh boy, take a seat pals...

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Dis-Gun-Be-Gud-Bear-Chair.gif

I would like to ask that we try to keep the thread focused on the actual policy discussion. This is not a TMO/IB/Class C issue only. Many people have been requesting this for years, and to treat it as opportunism and sour grapes does the long-running dialogue an extreme disservice.

[Nuktari]

http://media2.giphy.com/media/10p704gIAGRN7i/200.gif

[YendorLootmonkey]

A+ ... would be great for the server!!

You forgot to include as a positive:

- This would really put a dent in Metallikus' conspiracy theories.

[Portasaurus]

It sure would help the rest of us understand what the hell you guys are so upset about all the time.

Or not. It might confuse us more.

I don't know.

None of this affects forage rates, though, so I guess whatever.

[Lune]

Objection. The real question we should be asking ourselves is, is this conducive to better RNF content? Yes it is. Overruled. However I feel the current staff raid doctrine is too hidebound and ossified to accommodate this kind of change.

http://i.imgur.com/fxjh87l.png

Move to strike.

[khanable]

Can we add things to this proposal?

-Raid petitions must be explained in GIFs only

[Daldaen]

Full FFA respawns. 4 occurring on weekends to simulate Respawns. 2-4 occurring randomly throughout the week to simulate server up/downs.

Get rid of 16 hour windows. Entire raid mob spawns will remove poopsocking, reduce trains and conflicts because people will spread out. Will lead to more people enjoying raid scene.

Do it. Then there won't be the need for this.

[Nuktari]

Can we add things to this proposal?

-Raid petitions must be explained in GIFs only

http://media1.giphy.com/media/M8DV69CAAQO0o/200.gif

[khanable]

http://media1.giphy.com/media/M8DV69CAAQO0o/200.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZpSBf-IvocM/U9_dg6uvuqI/AAAAAAAANRU/JQXLFQs3TF4/s1600/Exactly.gif

[Tameth]

Full FFA respawns. 4 occurring on weekends to simulate Respawns. 2-4 occurring randomly throughout the week to simulate server up/downs.

Get rid of 16 hour windows. Entire raid mob spawns will remove poopsocking, reduce trains and conflicts because people will spread out. Will lead to more people enjoying raid scene.

Do it. Then there won't be the need for this.

/thread

[Frieza_Prexus]

Full FFA respawns. 4 occurring on weekends to simulate Respawns. 2-4 occurring randomly throughout the week to simulate server up/downs.

Get rid of 16 hour windows. Entire raid mob spawns will remove poopsocking, reduce trains and conflicts because people will spread out. Will lead to more people enjoying raid scene.

Do it. Then there won't be the need for this.

Perhaps we should pursue this as well but in another thread.

[feanan]

Wish the GM's would move everything out from behind the curtain!

banning, petitions, etc etc

[Nirgon]

Summon people that only care about items in this game a full set of best in slot

They will probably go away

[LulzSect]

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/164/6/3/Laugh_Dragon_by_talpimado.gif

[feanan]

Summon people that only care about items in this game a full set of best in slot

They will probably go away

They would just RMT and want more

[Urkel]

or maybe not have a garbage raid scene that doesnt require constant gm petitioning to begin with?

[Frieza_Prexus]

or maybe not have a garbage raid scene that doesnt require constant gm petitioning to begin with?

That, of course, would be preferable, but we must address reality before fantasy.

[Nirgon]

They would just RMT and want more

No these types of guys usually finish gearing and quit till Velious

[captnamazing]

http://i.imgur.com/JQB7k.gif

[Nuktari]

http://media.giphy.com/media/vgkpdI8ZQJRwQ/giphy.gif

[captnamazing]

http://i.imgur.com/9ExtHxx.gif

[zanderklocke]

Sirken mentioned on his stream that people might flaunt their egos and behave certain ways because their posts are public. People are more genuine in private.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Sirken mentioned on his stream that people might flaunt their egos and behave certain ways because their posts are public. People are more genuine in private.

"Petitions and supporting evidence posted must be facts only, no subjectivity, speculation, or opinions can be included for consideration. If you don't have the facts to make the case, don't bother petitioning."

[Ele]

Sirken mentioned on his stream that people might flaunt their egos and behave certain ways because their posts are public. People are more genuine in private.

Easy fix: in-game suspensions for people/guilds that can't follow rules for posting petitions or that submit frivolous petitions.

[Frieza_Prexus]

"Petitions and supporting evidence posted must be facts only, no subjectivity, speculation, or opinions can be included for consideration. If you don't have the facts to make the case, don't bother petitioning."

Agreed. Setting some very basic rules and strict, but simple, procedures will make such problems non-factors.

[Ambrotos]

Sirken mentioned on his stream that people might flaunt their egos and behave certain ways because their posts are public. People are more genuine in private.

He is pulling your leg on this. Their egos are as how they post already openly. There isn't a difference. Most of the times it's mainly them demanding the righteous fury of their guild to be up held, and MUST suspend the other guild. To do otherwise means you have no idea what the hell you are doing and will continue on another 4-5 posts ranting.

And before anyone claims some random reason as to why they would behave this way, they behave this way towards all staff including petitions to Rogean. This includes 100% proof saying otherwise at how wrong their petition/complaint is. It's just like jail, everyone is innocent because someone else did it and they were just in the wrong spot at the wrong time.

[Argh]

The biggest issue I have with petitions being public is that the content of petitions would be framed in such a way to garner public support rather than being framed solely to show rule violations.

[captnamazing]

The biggest issue I have with petitions being public is that the content of petitions would be framed in such a way to garner public support rather than being framed solely to show rule violations.

groupthink leads to lynchings, nothing can go wrong!

[Frieza_Prexus]

The biggest issue I have with petitions being public is that the content of petitions would be framed in such a way to garner public support rather than being framed solely to show rule violations.

This is why some simple ground rules should be laid out. For example, Fraps cannot be edited to have graphics, cannot have gaps, etc. All petitions should be concise (no more than, say 1.5-2 pages), and any fraud or dishonesty should be met with extreme punishment.

On top of that, do we think that private petitions aren't currently being framed with extreme bias? It's an issue no matter what. At least with open petitions you have more eyes on the problem.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

He is pulling your leg on this. Their egos are as how they post already openly. There isn't a difference. Most of the times it's mainly them demanding the righteous fury of their guild to be up held, and MUST suspend the other guild. To do otherwise means you have no idea what the hell you are doing and will continue on another 4-5 posts ranting.

And before anyone claims some random reason as to why they would behave this way, they behave this way towards all staff including petitions to Rogean. This includes 100% proof saying otherwise at how wrong their petition/complaint is. It's just like jail, everyone is innocent because someone else did it and they were just in the wrong spot at the wrong time.

You need to get a little freer with the banhammer then. Some douche says you have no idea what you are doing after you are mediating for free and displaying conclusive evidence : fuck em.

[Ravager]

This isn't an issue in Class R.

[Sirken]

we discussed public raid petitions Monday Night - http://youtu.be/tu_lDl2zrIw

njoy

[Daldaen]

Do you get paid for your stream or something?

[Swish]

Do you get paid for your stream or something?

If you could MQ a Twitch stream for plat daldaen, would you? :p

Quite the obsession with currency.

[Rais]

we discussed public raid petitions Monday Night - http://youtu.be/tu_lDl2zrIw

njoy

Can you have subtitles added to your streams. Our community of deaf people are clamoring at the inability to understand what is going on.

[Daldaen]

If you could MQ a Twitch stream for plat daldaen, would you? :p

Quite the obsession with currency.

Nah just seems like Sirken responds to most threads "check out my stream doodz".

[Reguiy]

This would not solve anything. In fact, it would likely create MORE drama. Any petition that is overturned people will cry favoritism. Any decision made would be questioned and heavily scrutinized, especially since the public wouldn't understand all the nuances that factored in to that decision.

[YendorLootmonkey]

This would not solve anything. In fact, it would likely create MORE drama. Any petition that is overturned people will cry favoritism. Any decision made would be questioned and heavily scrutinized, especially since the public wouldn't understand all the nuances that factored in to that decision.

"Based on factual evidence presented X, Guild Y is found in violation of server/raid rule Z."

A consistent enforcement of the rules couldn't be questioned or scrutinized. That's the point.

[Ele]

This would not solve anything. In fact, it would likely create MORE drama. Any petition that is overturned people will cry favoritism. Any decision made would be questioned and heavily scrutinized, especially since the public wouldn't understand all the nuances that factored in to that decision.

Petitions that are appealed and overturned already cause sides to cry favoritism.

Decisions are already questioned and heavily scrutinized.

The public right now can not even begin to understand the nuances because there is a lack of consistency to outcomes from the same situations. The raid rules change week to week and month to month as the petitions happen behind a curtain with rules being told to one group and not the rest of the community.

A public petition would allow for an accessible repository of rulings, reasons, and meted punishments that people could begin to rely on. If we do X, then Y will happen to us.

[Troubled]

This would not solve anything. In fact, it would likely create MORE drama.

I support public petitions based on possible infusion of drama.

[Sirken]

what if the raid petitions were kept private until they were resolved?

or

what if there was a date, raid petitions will be made public X days after resolution



and @Daldaan, i wish i did get paid to stream, it would give you something else to QQ about

[Latege]

You just ruined your 7,777 post count good job Sirken :mad:

[Clark]

http://i.imgur.com/9ExtHxx.gif

:)

Should be public.

[Culkasi]

I think this is an excellent idea, fully support the notion.

[Clasick]

This would create so much work for the GM's
The rule lawyering would start working in petition case law digging up and quoting various GM rulings. It's not so much about consistent rulings it's about every situation being unique.

Bad idea is just bad

[Daldaen]

what if the raid petitions were kept private until they were resolved?

or

what if there was a date, raid petitions will be made public X days after resolution



and @Daldaan, i wish i did get paid to stream, it would give you something else to QQ about

Oh I have plenty of non-classic things to QQ about as is. Unsure if more QQ is possible.

The unclassic must be slain for the classic we must obtain.

[Ravager]

I propose a different solution which will be less work and headaches: Moderate the forums. Get rid of RnF entirely; any thread you'd move there, delete it instead. If that adds too much to the work, there's gotta be one person who is on these forums all day long who would jump at the chance to silence a few posters.

[Daldaen]

I elect myself to moderate the bug forums and guild forums.

Bug forums just to move resolved issues, and guild forums to perma ban trolling.

[khanable]

Get rid of RnF entirely

Awful idea

[Frieza_Prexus]

This would create so much work for the GM's
The rule lawyering would start working in petition case law digging up and quoting various GM rulings. It's not so much about consistent rulings it's about every situation being unique.

No additional work would be created. In fact, it would drastically reduce the amount of time spent on petitions. The GM's have spent manhours in the double digits Skyping JUST on the IB/TMO suspensions. Public petitions would make such things obsolete. Guilds would submit all of their evidence and argument a single time, and prepare for a ruling.

Additionally, the players already dig through old rulings and petitions every single time. The "rule lawyering" here could not be any more severe; it has already reached its maximum limit.

Open petitions do nothing but reduce workload, streamline the process, and create a more stable environment that avoids even the appearance of improprietous situations.

[Phats]

The adjudication of petitions will not be solved by making them public. Most guilds are privy to the petitions they submit. The ex parte conversations will still occur, hours of Skype calls, pages of private messages and profanity laced tirades when attempting to resolve the issues.

I support your effort for petitions to be made public but the petition process will only improve when GM Sirken and GM Derubael learn how to be proper arbitrators. Both GMs have shown prevalence into trying to be personalities within the P99 community. (http://www.twitch.tv/sirkenp99/profile, http://www.twitch.tv/derubael/profile) These two vastly different roles of enforcer of server rules and P99 personality popularity contest do not go hand in hand. If a petition involves raid disputes both GMs should recuse themselves for a long list of conflict of interests. (previous guild affiliation, personal relationships with players they preside over, inflammatory remarks regarding the players they preside over, previous infraction of server rules while a player)

Both GM Sirken and Derubael enable the behavior they contend leads to the problems with the petition process. Neither GMs follows any set of rules or precedents. Both GMs frequently contradict each other in their streams and or postings or dealings in regards to petitions.

The OP did address the problem in regards to the "Petition Process." Currently the process is dysfunctional and the proposed petition process is posted in fragments through out various posts, ( and is not adhered to by any party (GM or Player). The posts outlined by Derubael and Sirken on how guilds were supposed to handle petitions are rarely enforced or followed.

The GMs mandated TMO & IB work out their differences between themselves and then after 7 days if the guilds were unable to come to an amicable solution, they should escalate the matter thru the use of a petition on the forums. Neither of the below examples followed the rule as set by the GMs.


IB incurred a 2 week suspension for engaging a dracoliche that was FTE'd by another guild. The mob in question to this date still does not announce zone wide FTE shout messages, and agroing a pet does not produce an FTE shout. IB was suspended several hours after the infraction occurred. No guild to guild communication occurred.


TMO was hit with a decade old petition and sucker punched with a suspension over some peculiar behavior by dragons in regards to training in VP.




A statute rule was put in place after TMO and BDA got suspended for very old petitions. This rule is a good example of the GMs attempting to put forth a process to alleviate the player concerns, the rule was positively received by all parties.
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149040


IB was recently suspended for an alleged infraction from the beginning September. This infraction was not petitioned on the forums. It was allegedly discussed in Skype between Unbrella and the GMs three weeks after the fact. The GMs disregard their own procedure and process.


All guilds have been subject to petitions being left dormant for many week and months, GMs will only tell you to bump them, and yet nothing is done. Example TMO tracker getting FTE on Severilous, the subsequently TMO pulling Severilous, engaging Severilous with a raid force only to wipe. GM Sirken was present at the incident and had real time communication with the raid leaders prior to Severilous being killed. GM Sirken denied any involvement of the event or knowledge of it on his stream when Chest address the matter several days later. This was blatantly in violation of the rules set forth in http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162920 (another example of a fragmented rule set, where you only know the rules if you listen to every stream or read over post in all the server forums) GMs took no action on this incident.

Then after weeks and months of no action regarding any dispute, GM Sirken public broadcast to the server:

http://i.imgur.com/ythBtHF.jpg

If the GMs would address petitions in a timely manner then neither of the guilds would have been in the position that led to the incidents that GM Sirken was referencing. I am more disgusted with GM Sirken and Derubael for ignoring matters for so long that he was forced to broadcast such a message.

The common theme I hear from our guild members and voiced by other guilds, is we want consistent rulings, fair arbitration, prompt resolution of petitions, and stiff but fair punishment. Currently none of this exists on P99.

Another issue is in regards to the Raid discussion forum. The GMs put this tool in place for guilds to have a means to communicate with GMs in a moderated setting. Recently TMO and BDA were faulted for exceeding bag limits. This specific bag limit question was posed over 8 months ago, http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141585 and GMs either let the players arrive at a conclusion to interpret their poorly worded rule regarding bag limits or ignored the question entirely. Fast forward 8 months to today and Rogean rules that bag limits are to be interpreted in a different manner than all the guilds had been operating under. This is an example of a communication failure on the part of the GMs and those penalized are the guilds who try and follow the rules.

To conclude GM Sirken and Derubael are volunteers. They choose every day to continue in their current roles as GMs of P99. I think independent of raid decisions both GMs perform admirable. When it comes to raid petitions both GMs are currently graded with a failing performance. Neither GM supports the rule set Rogean instituted, both privately bash the rule set and the Class R structure.

Petitions made public, with a formal process, and new independent arbiters will be a step in the right direction.

[myriverse]

- This would really put a dent in Metallikus' conspiracy theories.
Tin foil doesn't care about dents. Seriously, nothing will slow the amount of conspiracy theories. There will always be allegations of backdoor antics. Theorists are, by nature, not hooked into reality.

[Troubled]

I propose a different solution which will be less work and headaches: Moderate the forums. Get rid of RnF entirely; any thread you'd move there, delete it instead. If that adds too much to the work, there's gotta be one person who is on these forums all day long who would jump at the chance to silence a few posters.

Ban this person.

[Gwence]

Nice post phats however all you suckers continue to play p99 so it must not be that big of a problem

Either that or you're new and this is your first taste of that insane level of inconsistency

It was around long long before whomever makes up the current GM team is now. I wouldn't put too much blame on them it sounds like it's just a continuation of what has been the standard since shortly after the servers launched

So I suppose, ironically enough, in that way they seem to be very consistent.

[kotton05]

This would create so much work for the GM's
The rule lawyering would start working in petition case law digging up and quoting various GM rulings. It's not so much about consistent rulings it's about every situation being unique.

Bad idea is just bad

you're such a firegiant. this would set previous rulings as precedence and reference. which im sure you're rather new to all this but its very much needed.

[kaev]

you're such a firegiant. this would set previous rulings as precedence and reference. which im sure you're rather new to all this but its very much needed.

Have any of you advocates actually looked at the workings of precedence-based legal systems (like, oh, say, the U.S.)? Can you really be so blind to the evil you're wishing upon the server staff? Seriously guys, you're advocating redefining LawyerQuest in the most awful way imaginable. Drama is entertaining, but there wouldn't be enough to compensate for the otherwise unmitigated ugliness you're trying to infect p99 with.

[Ele]

Have any of you advocates actually looked at the workings of precedence-based legal systems (like, oh, say, the U.S.)? Can you really be so blind to the evil you're wishing upon the server staff? Seriously guys, you're advocating redefining LawyerQuest in the most awful way imaginable. Drama is entertaining, but there wouldn't be enough to compensate for the otherwise unmitigated ugliness you're trying to infect p99 with.

Procedures and guidelines would streamline the current process, which currently drains days (not just hours) of the server staff's time each week.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Have any of you advocates actually looked at the workings of precedence-based legal systems (like, oh, say, the U.S.)?

Yes. I am extremely familiar with the concept of jurisprudence and its applications.

you're advocating redefining LawyerQuest in the most awful way imaginable.

I disagree. "LawyerQuest" is already at its maximum potential. Dozens, if not hundreds, of conversations occur over Skype, via PM, and in game every time one these petitions is made. Guilds and their advocates are already throwing the kitchen sink during argument, and there's very little room to make it more complicated.

Making petitions open will have two effects the make your fears unnecessary.

1) Public communications will force the petitions and responses to be concise, appropriate, and exhaustive. No more back and forth of he said she said for days and weeks on end. Open petitions, by their nature, demand that the argument be front loaded. Thus, your fear that LawyerQuest will escalate is put to rest.

2) The rules come first. The precedence is in the application of those rules only. This means that there is ultimately less room for argument and that the rules will become more and more defined as time passes. This means that LawyerQuest will become increasingly restricted as time passes.

I understand your desire to eliminate pointless argument and unjust situations, but private petitions with no formal organization for their resolution are not efficient, nor are they conducive to justice and fair play.

[Pringles]

The rule lawyering would start working in petition case law digging up and quoting various GM rulings. It's not so much about consistent rulings it's about every situation being unique.


This.

We are going to start seeing "in the case of TMO vs IB in trakanon spawn 2641 on nov twenty one two thousand and fourteen it was stated that each party is blah blah blah"

The rule lawyering will be elevated to a whole new level of stupidity.

Also, if this does go through, what will you all bitch about when staff is proven to not be "corrupt" in their raid rulings? There is comedic value there!

[Frieza_Prexus]

We are going to start seeing "in the case of TMO vs IB in trakanon spawn 2641

This is already the case.

Providing public accountability will only serve to reduce this as I explained above.

[Pringles]

This is already the case.

Providing public accountability will only serve to reduce this as I explained above.

The lawyering will increase ten fold.

[Ele]

The lawyering will increase ten fold.

Could always take them back to being private if it does increase.

[Frieza_Prexus]

The lawyering will increase ten fold.

The GM's have spent at least 7 hours in Skype (that I am aware of, possibly more) regarding the TMO/IB suspension alone.

Public petitions with established procedures cannot possibly be as inefficient as the current process. To say that "lawyering" will increase isn't specific enough. Public petitions with established procedures are, by their nature, front loaded. There is no back and forth "lawyering." Both sides lay out their case, and a ruling is issued. It cannot be more simple or fairer than that.

[Troubled]

https://deadon.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/giantcontract.jpg?w=460

[Shinko]

The lawyering will increase ten fold.


just make it like the raid forums and keep the trolls out

[Erati]

how would this work practically?

would the GMs have to gather everything and post a 'Petition Summary with results'?

would the 'wronged' party run there and spew a bunch of keyboard vomit then the accused has X amount of time to respond with their side and then the GMs post final verdict? ( seems kinda dumb if thats the case as that original petition will be picked apart by the public well before the accused even responds )

i dont think this decreases any of the GMs work, however I would love if there was more transparency and consistency. Its insane they have to put in a full day of work via Skyping the raid guilds, that should not be happening to that extent unless Sirk/Deru really enjoy Skyping TMO/IB

I guess the best thing in my mind to do if something like this were to happen is to simply keep public records of the 'original complaint/petition' and the outcome. This way future rulings can start to become more consistent.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

How much would it cost to install security cameras at all raid target sites?

[YendorLootmonkey]

what if the raid petitions were kept private until they were resolved?

or

what if there was a date, raid petitions will be made public X days after resolution


Either would be a step in the right direction. I think the main points are transparency, consistency, and elimination of back-and-forth rules-lawyering (i.e. both parties each submit their evidence once as a total package and GM ruling is based on the facts and what can be corroborated with encounter logs, etc.)

[kaev]

Procedures and guidelines would streamline the current process, which currently drains days (not just hours) of the server staff's time each week.

Procedures and guidelines are cool and I agree. That's not even vaguely the same as public petitions and precedence tho.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Procedures and guidelines are cool and I agree. That's not even vaguely the same as public petitions and precedence tho.

On my phone, so forgive formatting errors. Spelling out solid policy and procedure is the second half of this discussion. Open petitions ensure that the procedures are followed more strictly. It's all about accountability, fairness, and efficiency.

Here's what I suggested a while back as a formal procedure. It's rather simple, but it was mostly met with tl;dr.


SUGGESTED PROCEDURE

1) Petitioning guild submits a complaint via the petition forum
A) A 3-5 sentence summary
B) Two pages MAX of argument/counter argument
C) Appendices of logs and fraps (unedited but text highlighted for ease of reading & convenience.)
D) All appendices & fraps MUST be properly organized (logs bolded & fraps met with time stamps [Ex: train aggro @3:52 FD @7:34]
E) All Petitions (& defenses) will be made public as they were submitted verbatim

2) Accused guild is given/allowed to view the submitted petition & evidence
A) Accused guild submits a defense in the same format as the complaint

3) GM reviews all evidence in the submitted complaints & engages in additional fact finding in the server logs as necessary and requests additional evidence if necessary
A) GM's should rarely need to request additional evidence as guild officers should be smart enough to present all relevant evidence. Evidence omitted from the initial petition/response by neglect will NOT be considered without a reasonable excuse (Ex: a player who was on vacation came home and uploaded new fraps)

4) GM issues a ruling.
A) All rulings and arguments, evidences, and appendices shall be made public the moment the ruling is issued
B) All rulings will consist of a short statement of the case including the ultimate disposition (part A guilty / not guilty etc.), a brief statement on why the GM staff ruled the way it did, and a brief statement explaining the punishment and its justifications.
B) Rulings may be appealed in the same format as the original complaint
C) Appeals are owed NO response, and are heard strictly at the discretion of the senior GM staff

5) If all involved parties can reach mutual agreement, GM intervention will be deemed unnecessary and the petition dismissed.
A)Frivolous or abusive petitions/appeals will result in punishment for the abusers
B) If an accused guild admits wrong doing and presents no defense, that admission will be considered favorably when determining punishment

[quido]

I think the petition should be open to be viewed by anyone as it is in progress before a decision.

[Secrets]

Not classic.

[Nuktari]

you guys ever step back and think "oh yeah, this is just a game" ?

http://media2.giphy.com/media/llKJGxQ1ESmac/200.gif

[Frieza_Prexus]

you guys ever step back and think "oh yeah, this is just a game" ?

It's a hobby that people put many hours into. What's wrong with taking that investment seriously?

[Mead]

Instead of making petitions public, we can make a collective effort to educate TMO on how to not violate rules that get them petitioned. Let's solve the problem at the root. Start the pro education movement.

[Ravager]

The GM's have spent at least 7 hours in Skype (that I am aware of, possibly more) regarding the TMO/IB suspension alone.

Why are GMs spending 7 hours in Skype in the first place? They should just say "Don't like our ruling? Tough titties, here's a suspension for arguing."

[knix]

I think the petition should be open to be viewed by anyone as it is in progress before a decision.

I think they should be able to be viewed by all, even after a decision. If the forum is going to be open for players to comment, I suggest that if someone trolls one of the posts, that that person be banned from commenting on future posts. Hopefully a move like that would stop trolling and an RnF atmosphere.

[myriverse]

It's a hobby that people put many hours into. What's wrong with taking that investment seriously?
The words "investment" and "seriously.":D

[Nuktari]

It's a hobby that people put many hours into. What's wrong with taking that investment seriously?

It's just a game.

Also, this precious "investment" will blossom into what? more make-believe elf-sim pixels in a make-believe world.

No, you're right, shit is definitely serious business.

[Frieza_Prexus]

It's just a game.

Also, this precious "investment" will blossom into what? more make-believe elf-sim pixels in a make-believe world.

No, you're right, shit is definitely serious business.

It's a hobby for people. Why wouldn't they take it seriously? How much do golf clubs cost? Guns? Camping equipment? You might think it's stupid, but it's no different than any other hobby. You sound like the guy I work with who goes to the Renaissance Festival to make fun of the people in costume only to wear a speedo and full body paint to a football game.

No one expects you to take this seriously if you don't want to, but don't be an ass to the people who do.

[Deadlyfury]

It's a hobby for people. Why wouldn't they take it seriously? How much do golf clubs cost? Guns? Camping equipment? You might think it's stupid, but it's no different than any other hobby. You sound like the guy I work with who goes to the Renaissance Festival to make fun of the people in costume only to wear a speedo and full body paint to a football game.

No one expects you to take this seriously if you don't want to, but don't be an ass to the people who do.

When I first saw this thread I thought "calm down!"

But I get it, you are passionate about your hobby, and I love that you are trying to improve it in the way you know how.

I for one wouldn't mind open petitioning but the reality is it would start a plethora of mis-quotes imo

Would love to see what the big boys up stairs think

[Nuktari]

It's a hobby for people. Why wouldn't they take it seriously? How much do golf clubs cost? Guns? Camping equipment? You might think it's stupid, but it's no different than any other hobby. You sound like the guy I work with who goes to the Renaissance Festival to make fun of the people in costume only to wear a speedo and full body paint to a football game.

No one expects you to take this seriously if you don't want to, but don't be an ass to the people who do.

http://media1.giphy.com/media/OYBcJu7IBNrPO/200.gif

I enjoy the Ren Faire, and support it annually, thank you very much.

The amount of money you spend on your hobby doesn't determine how serious you are about it. That just sounds stupid, for real, it's all about the passion, homeboy, and passion doesn't = money spent.

If you wanna play the "you sound like..." game, I'll fox with you.

If you were a super hero, your name would be Captain Fun-Drain.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/2fe4604fdf9824873353a413d1435255/tumblr_myg3kmqsFJ1t0j33lo1_500.gif

[Frieza_Prexus]

http://media1.giphy.com/media/OYBcJu7IBNrPO/200.gif

I enjoy the Ren Faire, and support it annually, thank you very much.

The amount of money you spend on your hobby doesn't determine how serious you are about it. That just sounds stupid, for real, it's all about the passion, homeboy, and passion doesn't = money spent.

If you wanna play the "you sound like..." game, I'll fox with you.

If you were a super hero, your name would be Captain Fun-Drain.

https://33.media.tumblr.com/2fe4604fdf9824873353a413d1435255/tumblr_myg3kmqsFJ1t0j33lo1_500.gif

You've completely missed the point. You are not the judge of what people can and cannot take seriously. If you don't like it, fine. Just don't be an ass to people who are serious.

GIFs are not a substitute for wit.

[Nuktari]

http://filmdump.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/judge-dredd-3.jpg

[Ravager]

You've completely missed the point. You are not the judge of what people can and cannot take seriously. If you don't like it, fine. Just don't be an ass to people who are serious.

GIFs are not a substitute for wit.

If everyone petitioning would learn to not take it so seriously, there'd be no problem to fix and you could spend more time seriously enjoying your hobby. Unless being a bureaucrat is your hobby.

[kotton05]

If everyone petitioning would learn to not take it so seriously, there'd be no problem to fix and you could spend more time seriously enjoying your hobby. Unless being a bureaucrat is your hobby.

so many lawyers in training on p99.... i support a transparency in petitions tho. could of used this years ago. plus its something to read etc while bored at work or on the road.

[Reguiy]

plus its something to read etc while bored at work or on the road.

I'm sure it will cause far more drama than it prevents, and I'm for it simply because it will create interesting threads to read.

[Ele]

Why are GMs spending 7 hours in Skype in the first place? They should just say "Don't like our ruling? Tough titties, here's a suspension for arguing."

Because they allow it and foster it.

IMO they should go draconian.

[Ravager]

Because they allow it and foster it.

IMO they should go draconian.

Agreed.

[knix]

bump

[apio]

the staff is already unable to enforce the current rules, because they care too much about population suffering when cutting out some cancer flesh. What makes you think more rules are gonna change that? It will just showcase the inability of this server's staff of enforcing their rules. They are not gonna dig their own grave. They will just continue pointing their fingers at the players instead of using them to fix the problems

[portbitch69]

how does this public petition forum stop back door negotiations? sounds like they would increase because of it

hard to create standards when every situation is unique. the posts should be private to the staff and parties involved. should only be made public once a final decision is made

it would save time but only after an initial increase in workload. all of this formal process needs to be created, implemented and then used a lot in order for it to pay off as a reference

and why all that work???

winter is coming...

[Conscript]

The ONLY reason anyone would want petition's to be public is so the party involved can use public opinion as support to their claim.

I understand that there are people that play this game seriously and take it seriously but, attempting to drag the public at large into your politics game is low and frowned upon.

If making petition's public is the only way to end the drama the power house guilds have created then perhaps you should have chosen your battles better.

- Reap what you sow.

[knix]

It will promote fair treatment, and when its unfair, it will be clear to all. People/leaders in the process will think out their petition and write them up, and there wont be the appearance of back room deals.

For example IB was able to overfill their bag limit 9 hours early when they killed Talendor and walk away unscathed , and TMO got dinged for overfilling our bag limit by 26 SECONDS.

it would be made clear to all why the GM's ruled in that way. It would settle down RNF.

[Swish]

Because they allow it and foster it.

IMO they should go draconian.

Would love to see it, zero tolerance... :p

http://s29.postimg.org/6m47ngbqf/image.png

[portbitch69]

Hey guys we got A LOT of rules, it sucks i know. but this one more rule will make it better i promise....

[Frieza_Prexus]

how does this public petition forum stop back door negotiations? sounds like they would increase because of it

The point is that backdoor communications are made obsolete. This public petition system, by definition, must have ALL of the evidence and explanation handed in up front by the petitioning party. The defense then responds all at once in a similar fashion.

Elaboration isn't typically needed; if it is, it is posted publicly. If, despite this, we STILL have back door dealings then it's not an issue of rules or procedures, it's an issue of decision makers acting unfairly. If that is the case, nothing can be done to stop that type of power abuse. I suspect we will not have this issue, however.

Hey guys we got A LOT of rules, it sucks i know. but this one more rule will make it better i promise....

Changing the rules isn't the same as adding more. The system is broken, inefficient, and tacitly unfair. It's utterly wasteful for people to spend 7+ hours in skype over issues like this. What I have proposed is a fix for all of this back and forth. In fact, a sample procedure set has already been written and vetted (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1578046&postcount=1)!

The ONLY reason anyone would want petition's to be public is so the party involved can use public opinion as support to their claim.

Public raid petitions force accountability on all parties. It is my firm belief that the current mess of haphazard skyping, PMing, and so on spiraled out of control because there was no organization put into it. It worked for small time petitions, but it doesn't cut it anymore. It's like when a small business starts growing; using Quickbooks just doesn't cut it anymore.

I, and others, want this system because it's wasteful to jump through so many hoops when there's an issue. Simple and straightforward procedures make everyone's lives easier. There is nothing to lose here, but so very much to gain.

[Daldaen]

I would like some clarification on what the GMs consider stalling and poopsocking. Those haven't been fully explained to me yet.

[Freakish]

I would approve of this simply because then you can see all the shit GMs have to deal with. Do you think TMO / IB / BDA / GuildX is scum? Well you can see the petition section and decide for yourself on how the situation was handled by the guild representatives.

[Fael]

what if the raid petitions were kept private until they were resolved?

or

what if there was a date, raid petitions will be made public X days after resolution



and @Daldaan, i wish i did get paid to stream, it would give you something else to QQ about

I think that either option makes sense, because I can see the concern that public opinion would undermine fair results. Let's be honest, as simple as our game mechanics are, not everyone on these boards has a clue of what happens and why. (It amazes me how many people don't understand FD, sneak, and mob aggro mechanics).

Would it just be resolved petitions that are posted?
I personally would like to see a list of total petitions by guild--the ones that end up in purgatory.
Perhaps Rogean should budget for an official clerk?

Dolic

[Daldaen]

Remove respawns.

Full Repops only. People will spread out and less petitions over all since people aren't herpderping all over each other to get the one dragon that spawned early in his 16-hour non-classic window.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I think that either option makes sense, because I can see the concern that public opinion would undermine fair results. Let's be honest, as simple as our game mechanics are, not everyone on these boards has a clue of what happens and why. (It amazes me how many people don't understand FD, sneak, and mob aggro mechanics).

Would it just be resolved petitions that are posted?
I personally would like to see a list of total petitions by guild--the ones that end up in purgatory.
Perhaps Rogean should budget for an official clerk?

Dolic

Whatever is done, it should have simple and established procedures to be followed. Hours of ex parte communication and back door deals does no one any favors.

[Fael]

Remove respawns.

Full Repops only. People will spread out and less petitions over all since people aren't herpderping all over each other to get the one dragon that spawned early in his 16-hour non-classic window.

Nah.

[Tpar]

I'm not involved in raiding at this point, and its unlikely I will be any time in the near future. However, some things I would point out on this proposal, which I think is interesting and has some merit.

1) Yes, there will be some rules lawyering. There is already rules lawyering going on, and I don't think this will affect it one way or another. It might mean that the public petitions will have to be more "professionally prepared", if they are going to meet some sort of standard for being succinct and relatively brief.
2) There can be some "rules of conduct" established, that everyone who practices before the GMs are obligated to follow. That could include rules of procedure that include a requirement that an argument not raised in the initial petition is deemed to be abandoned. (Its a rule of law in real life courts that with rare exceptions. and argument raised the first time on appeal is generally not permitted).
3) The GM staff, it it turns out that guild officers are abusing the public process, could add a new forum for these special petitions, and could make them read only for most, and only allow certain people who have demonstrated that they will follow the posting rules, (i.e. not post frivolous petitions, have consistent and well prepared arguments, etc), to post on behalf of a guild. I know this sounds like lawyering again, but, there are reasons that all states require lawyers to be licensed.
4) I like the idea that the initial petition would need to have all the evidence attached, and once that has been received, the responding guild / individual would have a certain time to respond, and then the case would be considered to be submitted. The GM who is adjudicating the matter would then need to issue a ruling, hopefully within a certain time period, and yes, that ruling could be used as a precedent. However, just as in our current real life legal system, a precedent is not always binding. Often, an appellate court will note a similar case, and then come to a different conclusion. I see no reason why that couldn't happen here.

As I noted above, I'm not involved in the raiding system, but it seems to me as an outsider, that a public and transparent system makes a great deal of sense, as long as there is an established policy and well enforced rules of practice before the GM's.

[Lictor]

Removing MQ solves the major of those problems listed without lawyer questing buzzwords

[Frieza_Prexus]

Yes, to your point #1. The idea is that all claims must be included in the initial pleading. A little FRCP never hurt anyone.

also, abuse of process can easily be dealt with. Fines, raid suspensions, or forfeiture of a claim all would work.

[Raev]

Remove respawns.

Full Repops only. People will spread out and less petitions over all since people aren't herpderping all over each other to get the one dragon that spawned early in his 16-hour non-classic window.

Yes. Lets work on making the raid scene FUN.

[Nuktari]

http://media3.giphy.com/media/Nkx9qf3azZkPe/200.gif

[Juntsie]

Juntsie tink dis proposal incredibly unwise, not classic, and create burden on GM. It not classic cuz raid dispute on project 1999 taken too seriously by people wit big neckbeard, up to point where artificial procedure allegedly needed to control neckbeard population and keep peace.

Raider forget dat GM graciously volunteer time, and should not be expected to review voluminous materials to render perfect ruling. Raid not matter so much that dere should be petitions, briefing, public posting, and loads of other boring written crap to sift through in effort to render just ruling. Ruling should be made with minimal effort based on simple undisputed facts, preferably in-game, like on classic. If raider disagree over ruling, dey go farm more tings for 6th alt and cry river of eternal sorrow.

Juntsie always thought dat putting all mobs on equitable rotation with no class distinction best resolution to raid problems. If player want competition, go bash on red, where no silly rules exist, other than bash best, which is good, predictable rule. Dis not purely classic, but it much more classic than current raid drama. Juntsie tink it fitting dat he see beautiful raid screenshot of red playas actually bashing down to Trakanon. Cause single tear of joy.

Regardless, Juntsie advise OP to set boundaries between professional training and online bashing. It lead to more fruitful, enjoyable endeavors.

[Frieza_Prexus]

This has already been addressed, Juntsie. Classicness has no bearing on how the GM makes his decisions outside of the game. Additionally, this lowers, by a HUGE margin, the amount of work required by all parties. After tens, if not hundreds, of total man hours all of the same evidence is eventually produced, but it's initially held back as sides try to extort and our play each other.

The dirty, not-so-secret, truth of this server is that few people in the end game are interested in justice and fair play. The end game has always been a farce of using the system to punish the other guy with no regard for the actual spirit of the rules. It's always "what can we stick them with this time?" When the question should be "how do we make this game more fun?"

People say they want fewer rules because that would make the game more fun, but we've seen P99 Lord of the Flies and the Laissez-faire environment is anything but for all but the ruling elite. Players will always abuse the system we have until the ability to do so is removed for their hands.

[Argh]

I think the easiest solution would be for people to stop petitioning every time they lose. Admit the fact that you lost and move on.

[Psionide]

This has already been addressed, Juntsie. Classicness has no bearing on how the GM makes his decisions outside of the game. Additionally, this lowers, by a HUGE margin, the amount of work required by all parties. After tens, if not hundreds, of total man hours all of the same evidence is eventually produced, but it's initially held back as sides try to extort and our play each other.

The dirty, not-so-secret, truth of this server is that few people in the end game are interested in justice and fair play. The end game has always been a farce of using the system to punish the other guy with no regard for the actual spirit of the rules. It's always "what can we stick them with this time?" When the question should be "how do we make this game more fun?"

People say they want fewer rules because that would make the game more fun, but we've seen P99 Lord of the Flies and the Laissez-faire environment is anything but for all but the ruling elite. Players will always abuse the system we have until the ability to do so is removed for their hands.

Here here!

[Raev]

Juntsie always thought dat putting all mobs on equitable rotation with no class distinction best resolution to raid problems. If player want competition, go bash on red, where no silly rules exist, other than bash best, which is good, predictable rule. Dis not purely classic, but it much more classic than current raid drama. Juntsie tink it fitting dat he see beautiful raid screenshot of red playas actually bashing down to Trakanon. Cause single tear of joy.

Enforcing a rotation on blue and telling the players who want competition to move to red is an eminently reasonable solution. I enjoyed my bit of time on the red server, although I'm playing blue mostly still as my friends are on blue. I wonder why the staff is so opposed to this.

[quido]

Enforcing a rotation on blue and telling the players who want competition to move to red is an eminently reasonable solution. I enjoyed my bit of time on the red server, although I'm playing blue mostly still as my friends are on blue. I wonder why the staff is so opposed to this.

The fact that most people don't want to deal with grief central PvP would be one reason I think.

[Ravager]

The dirty, not-so-secret, truth of this server is that few people in the end game are interested in justice and fair play. The end game has always been a farce of using the system to punish the other guy with no regard for the actual spirit of the rules. It's always "what can we stick them with this time?" When the question should be "how do we make this game more fun?"

Class C problems. The reality is 90% of the server would have more fun with rotations. There wouldn't be all this back and forth bickering and all the time-consuming problems could be solved with a calendar. 90% of the server is interested in fair play, it's the 10% that create this problem and are not at all interested in fair play. Pretty sure public petitions will just force your class to figure out other ways to game the system.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Class C problems. The reality is 90% of the server would have more fun with rotations. There wouldn't be all this back and forth bickering and all the time-consuming problems could be solved with a calendar. 90% of the server is interested in fair play, it's the 10% that create this problem and are not at all interested in fair play. Pretty sure public petitions will just force your class to figure out other ways to game the system.

If the staff chooses to implement rotations then, yes, much of this is moot. However, they have not done so; we must acknowledge the reality of the situation.

You say that we'd just "figure out other ways to game the system." That's how it's supposed to work; when a loophole is abused, it is closed. It's poor argument to say we shouldnt make A better because B might be abused. Progress has to start somewhere. Things have never been better here, honestly. There are fewer incidents overall, and low end guilds have meaningful participation in raid content. That doesn't mean we should stop trying.

[Dizey]

Didn't read the whole thread, but sounds like petitions will just turn into a "who has the best spin team" match.

[quido]

Turn into?

[Ravager]

If the staff chooses to implement rotations then, yes, much of this is moot. However, they have not done so; we must acknowledge the reality of the situation.

You say that we'd just "figure out other ways to game the system." That's how it's supposed to work; when a loophole is abused, it is closed. It's poor argument to say we shouldnt make A better because B might be abused. Progress has to start somewhere. Things have never been better here, honestly. There are fewer incidents overall, and low end guilds have meaningful participation in raid content. That doesn't mean we should stop trying.

The staff doesn't have to force rotations to have them happen. Rotations aren't forced in Class R, that's just how the majority would rather play. For all you're trying to do, this is really just a 2 guild problem. So, talk to that other guild and deal with it. Isn't that why there's a guild discussion board in the first place?

[Ele]

The staff doesn't have to force rotations to have them happen. Rotations aren't forced in Class R, that's just how the majority would rather play. For all you're trying to do, this is really just a 2 guild problem. So, talk to that other guild and deal with it. Isn't that why there's a guild discussion board in the first place?

FFA? There are more than 2 guilds and if the others guilds don't need to petition then why are they worrying about it at all?

[MaksimMazor]

Can we break ground on the P99 Capitol Building?

[Laugher]

occupy cshome

*edit*

http://i.imgur.com/kTDrTS2.jpg

[Ravager]

FFA? There are more than 2 guilds and if the others guilds don't need to petition then why are they worrying about it at all?

Still pretty clear where the root of the problem lies. FFA is a testament to that, the petitions and bullshit only happen when dealing with a certain class.

[Frieza_Prexus]

So much stupidity in this post, it's amazing, but at the same time not really.

Hi Ace,

To clarify my first point, fixing "A" here does not break "B". My example was that multiple holes currently exist and that we should not be afraid to start somewhere when fixing problems. It's like saying we shouldnt fix a broken arm because then we'll notice how much our broken pinky is also hurting.

Secondly, please focus on the merits of the issues themselves and not their origins. My guild tag and posting history have nothing to do with the worthiness of my comments. It's certainly fine that you disagree, but perhaps you'll be heard more clearly if you spend more time making a point and less effort on typing the word "fuck."

[-Catherin-]

It's certainly fine that you disagree, but perhaps you'll be heard more clearly if you spend more time making a point and less effort on typing the word "fuck."

http://i.imgur.com/goqukKJ.gif

:D

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Because they allow it and foster it.

IMO they should go draconian.

Uthgaard 2016.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Didn't read the whole thread, but sounds like petitions will just turn into a "who has the best spin team" match.

I meant to address this earlier, but better Nate than lever. This will not be the case. This is not about lawyering or spinning. This proposal decreases "spin" by decreasing the opportunity to do so; it limits all petitions to a single document of VERY concise and direct argument. It forces all parties to put everything out there at once while the decision maker decides. There is no back and forth. Currently, petitions suffer from two major problems:

1) There is no organization; communications happen behind people's backs. This means that people are not given answers, evidence, and sometimes aren't even told what violation they're being charged with! This isn't malicious; it's a result of poor organization.

Public raid petitions means that all information and evidence MUST be submitted before hand so that the GM can take a single look at it without having to go back and forth losing information in the shuffle.

2) There is a lack of accountability for those that abuse the system. Public petitions force frivolous petitions and poor rulings into sight, and it helps prevent such abuses. Additionally, public access prevents even the appearance of bias or impropriety on the part of the decision makers. Preserving the dignity of the process is nearly as important as preserving the integrity of the process, and public access does both.

[Ravager]

TMO had years to improve things for everyone. Now that they have to put up with the same bullshit everyone else had to put up with when dealing with them they want the change? You guys made everything about who had the best fraps/lawyer team. Deal with it.

[Frieza_Prexus]

TMO had years to improve things for everyone. Now that they have to put up with the same bullshit everyone else had to put up with when dealing with them they want the change? You guys made everything about who had the best fraps/lawyer team. Deal with it.

TMO is not trying to change anything; I do not speak for TMO. Please address the issue on its merits, not on lines of faction. Are you seriously saying that we shouldn't fix a broken system because the "wrong person" is suggesting it? To put it as politely as possible: that is some seriously weak-ass shit right there.

If you think it's a bad idea, then explain why. Getting your rocks off about karma isn't an acceptable form of argument.

[Ravager]

TMO is not trying to change anything; I do not speak for TMO. Please address the issue on its merits, not on lines of faction. Are you seriously saying that we shouldn't fix a broken system because the "wrong person" is suggesting it? To put it as politely as possible: that is some seriously weak-ass shit right there.

If you think it's a bad idea, then explain why. Getting your rocks off about karma isn't an acceptable form of argument.

I wasn't arguing for or against it. I was merely pointing out the irony of this post.

You do not speak for TMO. For someone who has been in the guild for years, you sure do try to distance yourself from everything the tag has come to represent. I'd say you're in the wrong guild, but hypocrisy suits the tag.

Here's an argument against it: Open petitions won't fix the real problem and that's petitions happening in the first place. The only thing that will stop the petitions and bullshit is a full on rotation. As long as there's a FTE/FFA aspect to the raid scene, there will always be people running each other over to get the mob and crying foul.

I would argue further that a full rotation system would create a more classic atmosphere than the class system. After all, people didn't find P99 and say, "Hey, they have poopsocking and 3am batphones! That takes me back!".

[Frieza_Prexus]

I wasn't arguing for or against it. I was merely pointing out the irony of this post.

You do not speak for TMO. For someone who has been in the guild for years, you sure do try to distance yourself from everything the tag has come to represent. I'd say you're in the wrong guild, but hypocrisy suits the tag.

Certainly, I distance myself from certain things. It's worked to an extent; there were a lot of people who couldn't play nice in TMO that aren't around any more, and things have continued to improve in my view. I'm still not sure why that's relevant here, however.

Here's an argument against it: Open petitions won't fix the real problem and that's petitions happening in the first place. The only thing that will stop the petitions and bullshit is a full on rotation. As long as there's a FTE/FFA aspect to the raid scene, there will always be people running each other over to get the mob and crying foul.

I would argue further that a full rotation system would create a more classic atmosphere than the class system. After all, people didn't find P99 and say, "Hey, they have poopsocking and 3am batphones! That takes me back!".

Certainly, a full rotation would solve 99% of the issues. It's also very unrealistic in the current server environment. Open petitions are a middling step that will reduce the frivolous petitions a large amount. It seems absurd to me that our current system of dispute resolution takes many hours of Skype, PM's, and private conversations only to produce an outcome that is inconsistent with prior outcomes.

Open petitions aren't just about giving people a recording or log and saying "enjoy!" It's open simplifying the entire process to not be such a giant mess of missed communication and one-sided conversation.

[Derubael]

I'm a big supporter of public raid petitions, so long as they are done correctly.

For a long time I had no interest in this kind of system. There's plenty of little issues that could pop up, and it just seemed like a hassle. My opinion has completely changed, however, after overseeing a long period of misinformation, conspiracy theories, and outright bullshit that makes Sirken and I - and, by extension, the rest of the staff/server - look like biased incompetent assholes. I was naive enough to think that if we were patient, informative, and honest about our decision making process to a few individuals involved in the dispute, that our reasoning could - at the bare minimum - be communicated clearly and in its entirety without being skewed, improperly summarized, or straight up lied about. Obviously this is a pipe dream, and even players with the best intentions and respect for the staff can make these mistakes, especially when tensions are high or decisions are seen as wrong/unfair. As a result, I'd have no problem with public raid petitions, so long as a few things were set in place. The poster I've quoted has a good start:



1) It might mean that the public petitions will have to be more "professionally prepared", if they are going to meet some sort of standard for being succinct and relatively brief.
2) There can be some "rules of conduct" established, that everyone who practices before the GMs are obligated to follow. That could include rules of procedure that include a requirement that an argument not raised in the initial petition is deemed to be abandoned.
**#3 redacted, see below**
4) The initial petition would need to have all the evidence attached, and once that has been received, the responding guild / individual would have a certain time to respond, and then the case would be considered to be submitted. GM's (9/10 times it's both of us reviewing a dispute. rarely are they handled by just 1 GM.) would then give a ruling. However, just as in our current real life legal system, a precedent is not always binding. Often, an appellate court will note a similar case, and then come to a different conclusion. I see no reason why that couldn't happen here.


Replace #3 with specific rules on who can post in a given petition thread. This would be limited to one member of the petitioning guild, one member from (each of) the opposing guild(s), and Sirken/myself. Posts would go in a specific order:

1) Petition itself.
2) Defense from accused guild(s). If more than one guild is accused, each guild will now be able to defend itself, provide opposing evidence, etc.
3) Rebuttal from Petitioning guild (maybe put some kind of limit on this? could start with no limit and see what happens, placing a cap if needed)
4) Rebuttal from accused guild(s). Final post(s). The thread would be locked at this point so that only the staff could respond further.

Sirken and myself could post at any time. I feel like offering each side two posts total ensures we get it ALL on the table. There would definitely be times when we had other questions, but that's easy to fit in at the end. Something important to note is that in the end, we always reserve the right to make whatever call we feel is right and best for the server, so we're never going to agree to be bound by anything except server administration. Citing precedent is great, for example, but we could rule the complete opposite if we felt it was the right call (and this way, everyone would actually get to see why it wasn't being followed!).

This all boils down to one question (for me, at least): Is the hassle and inflexibility of an open system worth the reduction in misconceptions/tinfoilhats/false information? I say yes, but I also have a tendency to put too much stock in player perception. It's also important to note that most complaints come from a vocal minority that will never be happy with staff decisions no matter what. I've seen enough legitimate complaints lately, however, from people who were outright lied to or misled about a verdict, that i'd support a system like this if done properly.

I had already mentioned to Sirken and Rogean (and maybe nilbog too?) that I had a tentative +1 to a public raid dispute system done right. but it's not that big of a deal for me so it's not like I'm going to crusade for it. I wrote this just to show my support and outline what would, in my opinion, be a workable system. Good luck!

tl;dr? +1 from deru if done right because i care about each and every one of our players feelings. GL convincing other 3/4's of the senior staff.

[Ravager]

Certainly, I distance myself from certain things. It's worked to an extent; there were a lot of people who couldn't play nice in TMO that aren't around any more, and things have continued to improve in my view. I'm still not sure why that's relevant here, however.

If you don't see how being sided with the people who embodied the "It's legal unless you get frapsed/petitioned." mentality for years is relevant to your crusade to stop the problem of everyone trying to catch the other person in the act and lawyering their way to a favorable outcome is relevant, then I can't argue with you.

Certainly, a full rotation would solve 99% of the issues. It's also very unrealistic in the current server environment.

Why is it unrealistic? It's working for the vast majority of guilds.

[Cecily]

Public petitions would be entertaining at least.

[Ravager]

Public petitions would be entertaining at least.

This, everyone can agree on.

[Ella`Ella]

I'm a big supporter of public raid petitions, so long as they are done correctly.

For a long time I had no interest in this kind of system. There's plenty of little issues that could pop up, and it just seemed like a hassle. My opinion has completely changed, however, after overseeing a long period of misinformation, conspiracy theories, and outright bullshit that makes Sirken and I - and, by extension, the rest of the staff/server - look like biased incompetent assholes. I was naive enough to think that if we were patient, informative, and honest about our decision making process to a few individuals involved in the dispute, that our reasoning could - at the bare minimum - be communicated clearly and in its entirety without being skewed, improperly summarized, or straight up lied about. Obviously this is a pipe dream, and even players with the best intentions and respect for the staff can make these mistakes, especially when tensions are high or decisions are seen as wrong/unfair. As a result, I'd have no problem with public raid petitions, so long as a few things were set in place.

Consistency would have abated all of this. There is also a stark difference between deception and perception.

[Derubael]

There is also a stark difference between deception and perception.

Hence,

even players with the best intentions and respect for the staff can make these mistakes, especially when tensions are high or decisions are seen as wrong/unfair

I'd rather not leave interpretation up to perception when it comes to our decisions and the reasons behind them. When laid out clearly for everyone to see that possibility is eliminated as the information is relayed directly from staff to the everyman p99er.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I am enthused to see that you believe this is a good idea, Derubael.

I certainly agree with you that a simple, efficient, and fair format should be established to provide consistency and prevent even the slightest appearance of impropriety.

I'm certain you've seen it before, but here is the model policy I drafted for your consideration:


SUGGESTED PROCEDURE

1) Petitioning guild submits a complaint via the petition forum
A) A 3-5 sentence summary
B) Two pages MAX of argument/counter argument
C) Appendices of logs and fraps (unedited but text highlighted for ease of reading & convenience.)
D) All appendices & fraps MUST be properly organized (logs bolded & fraps met with time stamps [Ex: train aggro @3:52 FD @7:34]
E) All Petitions (& defenses) will be made public as they were submitted verbatim

2) Accused guild is given/allowed to view the submitted petition & evidence
A) Accused guild submits a defense in the same format as the complaint

3) GM reviews all evidence in the submitted complaints & engages in additional fact finding in the server logs as necessary and requests additional evidence if necessary
A) GM's should rarely need to request additional evidence as guild officers should be smart enough to present all relevant evidence. Evidence omitted from the initial petition/response by neglect will NOT be considered without a reasonable excuse (Ex: a player who was on vacation came home and uploaded new fraps, or perhaps the new information did not originally appear necessary.)

4) GM issues a ruling.
A) All rulings and arguments, evidences, and appendices shall be made public the moment the ruling is issued
B) All rulings will consist of a short statement of the case including the ultimate disposition (part A guilty / not guilty etc.), a brief statement on why the GM staff ruled the way it did, and a brief statement explaining the punishment and its justifications.
B) Rulings may be appealed in the same format as the original complaint
C) Appeals are owed NO response, and are heard strictly at the discretion of the senior GM staff

5) If all involved parties can reach mutual agreement, GM intervention will be deemed unnecessary and the petition dismissed.
A)Frivolous or abusive petitions/appeals will result in punishment for the abusers
B) If an accused guild admits wrong doing and presents no defense, that admission will be considered favorably when determining punishment

[falkun]

I take issue with 3A. Make a hard line on when documentation is due. If someone wants to take FRAPS/logs and then ditch out for 3 days but the rebuttal period is 48hrs, thats on them and their guild. You'll get people rule lawyering and/or blatantly making up absences. Just make it a set time and be done with it, less gray area is better.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Lawyerquest at its finest

[Daldaen]

Let's just get 0 Variance so that if people lose a dragon, tough luck, atleast you didn't waste 16 hours of your life staring at a wall trying to jav spam FTE it.

Please? It's classic and I love me some classic.

[knix]

Originally Posted by Sample Procedures
SUGGESTED PROCEDURE

1) Petitioning guild submits a complaint via the petition forum
A) A 3-5 sentence summary
B) Two pages MAX of argument/counter argument
C) Appendices of logs and fraps (unedited but text highlighted for ease of reading & convenience.)
D) All appendices & fraps MUST be properly organized (logs bolded & fraps met with time stamps [Ex: train aggro @3:52 FD @7:34]
E) All Petitions (& defenses) will be made public as they were submitted verbatim

2) Accused guild is given/allowed to view the submitted petition & evidence
A) Accused guild submits a defense in the same format as the complaint

3) GM reviews all evidence in the submitted complaints & engages in additional fact finding in the server logs as necessary and requests additional evidence if necessary
A) GM's should rarely need to request additional evidence as guild officers should be smart enough to present all relevant evidence. Evidence omitted from the initial petition/response by neglect will NOT be considered without a reasonable excuse (Ex: a player who was on vacation came home and uploaded new fraps, or perhaps the new information did not originally appear necessary.)

4) GM issues a ruling.
A) All rulings and arguments, evidences, and appendices shall be made public the moment the ruling is issued
B) All rulings will consist of a short statement of the case including the ultimate disposition (part A guilty / not guilty etc.), a brief statement on why the GM staff ruled the way it did, and a brief statement explaining the punishment and its justifications.
B) Rulings may be appealed in the same format as the original complaint
C) Appeals are owed NO response, and are heard strictly at the discretion of the senior GM staff

5) If all involved parties can reach mutual agreement, GM intervention will be deemed unnecessary and the petition dismissed.
A)Frivolous or abusive petitions/appeals will result in punishment for the abusers
B) If an accused guild admits wrong doing and presents no defense, that admission will be considered favorably when determining punishment

would petitions settled without gm intervention also be general population viewable? I think that is needed, because it would show who was negotiating in good faith, ie guild A trained trakanon ot guild b, so guild a agreed to forfeit that trak plus...x. So the next time when it happens that guild B trains a mob on guild A, and guild B says fuck you there is a public record on how it was handled when the situation was in reversed.

[Heebo]

This would be great. The only problem would be if our raid dispute person stepped down and they were the only person allowed to post in that forum we'd be left totally defenseless.

It's been months since our officers have restructured and TMO still can't get the right people access in the guild discussion forum.

[Frieza_Prexus]

would petitions settled without gm intervention also be general population viewable? I think that is needed, because it would show who was negotiating in good faith, ie guild A trained trakanon ot guild b, so guild a agreed to forfeit that trak plus...x. So the next time when it happens that guild B trains a mob on guild A, and guild B says fuck you there is a public record on how it was handled when the situation was in reversed.

This is unenforceable. Private negotiations should stay that way; there's no effective way to make it otherwise.

[Juntsie]

This thread and extent of lawyerquesting is so unclassic that it make Juntsie vomit up Froglocks he ate for supper four days ago.

GM should simply not devote dis much effort to raid disputes and bickering that apply to only small amount of players on server. GM resources better spent doing other tings.

Lawyerquesting is not classic and should be bashed in face.

[Daldaen]

0 Variance it up.

Juntsie gets that classic is very important. 16 hour windows aren't classic.

[knix]

We need to establish the petition language as non roleplay englis.

But, live was different, this server is top heavy with level 60 raiders.

[Ele]

This thread and extent of lawyerquesting is so unclassic that it make Juntsie vomit up Froglocks he ate for supper four days ago.

GM should simply not devote dis much effort to raid disputes and bickering that apply to only small amount of players on server. GM resources better spent doing other tings.

Lawyerquesting is not classic and should be bashed in face.

GMs are currently devoting more time than would be required under a system such as that being proposed.

[Juntsie]

Why shuld GM devote so much time and resource to public petition process dat benefit only minute, tiny amount of players who after multiple years cannot seem to figure out how to share tings and bash together for fun? Just cuz said players have longest neck beards, desire most pixilz, and cry loudest, does not mean dat dey should be given undue consideration or expect dat staff will review petitions pursuant to lawyerquest legal procedures.

Such consideration should not be given. Burden is not equitable or gud for volunteer GMs, who stand to turn into magistrate petition review robots. It not gud for server. Forced equitable rotation may not be classic but it much lesser evil dan current silly rules, laughable disputes, and proposed burdensome petition process. If dis objectionable, justice shuld be otherwise be swift, based on simple undisputed facts, and executed in-game, classic style.

[Ele]

Why shuld GM devote so much time and resource to public petition process dat benefit only minute, tiny amount of players who after multiple years cannot seem to figure out how to share tings and bash together for fun? Just cuz said players have longest neck beards and cry loudest, does not mean dat dey should be given undue consideration or expect dat staff will review petitions pursuant to lawyerquest legal procedures.

Such consideration should not be given. Burden is not equitable or gud for volunteer GMs, who stand to turn into magistrate petition review robots. It not gud for server. Forced equitable rotation may not be classic but it much lesser evil dan current silly rules and disputes.

Well GMs and owner of the server have said that forced rotations will not happen, so it is up to the community and GMs to figure out how to mediate disputes.

It seems you agree that the current system of closed petitions is broken and in need of a fix. How are the volunteer GMs already not magistrate petition review robots? They choose to devote more hours per week right now handling petitions than some people work.

[JayN]

Open petitions, let the decree ring throughout the land! Let there be no more hiding of treachery or deceit, lay it all on the table for everyone to see. End the twisted shielded arguments.

[Ella`Ella]

Conversations like this just create a forum for more lawyerquesting to take place.

First of all, kill variance - that solves most problems.

Second of all, make penalties for lawyerquest. If you submit a frivolous petition or are found that it doesn't hold up, you eat a 1-week suspension.

Make it fun! You get raid 3 petitions a month - use 'em wisely.

[Ravager]

Well GMs and owner of the server have said that forced rotations will not happen, so it is up to the community and GMs to figure out how to mediate disputes.

It seems you agree that the current system of closed petitions is broken and in need of a fix. How are the volunteer GMs already not magistrate petition review robots? They choose to devote more hours per week right now handling petitions than some people work.

Did GMs even collect evidence of infractions and mediate disputes outside of the game in classic?

[Juntsie]

Well GMs and owner of the server have said that forced rotations will not happen, so it is up to the community and GMs to figure out how to mediate disputes.

It seems you agree that the current system of closed petitions is broken and in need of a fix. How are the volunteer GMs already not magistrate petition review robots? They choose to devote more hours per week right now handling petitions than some people work.

Juntsie find it hard to believe that GM devote more time to petition process now than if petition process is approved and implemented. Juntsie not dispute dat GM spend large amount of time right now resolving unfortunate raid dispute (perhaps too much time - Juntsie support swift, in-game justice). But petition process stand to create large body of case-law that GM must reference to promote "consistent" ruling. It stand to promote lawyerquesting through painfully unclassic process. It take GM out of game and onto forum to review voluminous petition materials. Dis is painfully unclassic and against spirit of game and dis project.

What next when lawyerquesters still whine about resolution and accuse GM of crap? Amicus briefing? Supplemental briefing? Motion for Petition Reconsideration? Notice of Petition Appeal Process before 3-GM Panel? Petition for Discretionary Review by Supreme Court of Rogean?

NOT CLASSIC.

Juntsie again tink dat lawyerquest need bash in face. Dis is 20 year old game dat supposed to be about bashing, eatting tings, and drinking tings for fun. Therefore, Juntsie advise all to not take raid dispute so seriously. Classic GM did not. Only time did when involve exploits - WHAT DAT? EXPLOIT WARDER ON Z-AXIS?! BAN GUILD, ROFLZZZZZZZ.

[Ravager]

Juntsie should have a green name.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Why shuld GM devote so much time and resource to public petition process dat benefit only minute, tiny amount of players who after multiple years cannot seem to figure out how to share tings and bash together for fun? Just cuz said players have longest neck beards, desire most pixilz, and cry loudest, does not mean dat dey should be given undue consideration or expect dat staff will review petitions pursuant to lawyerquest legal procedures.

Such consideration should not be given. Burden is not equitable or gud for volunteer GMs, who stand to turn into magistrate petition review robots. It not gud for server. Forced equitable rotation may not be classic but it much lesser evil dan current silly rules, laughable disputes, and proposed burdensome petition process. If dis objectionable, justice shuld be otherwise be swift, based on simple undisputed facts, and executed in-game, classic style.

Take it up with the GMs, then. We, as the players, can only work within the confines that they present us. We have been explicitly told, many times, that full rotations and completely hands-off GMing are not options. We have only two choices. Keep the system as it is, or modify the current system to be more efficient.

It is absurd that we'd not opt to make a bad system better when it's the only one we've got.

http://i.imgur.com/u1bj4XD.png

[Daldaen]

Conversations like this just create a forum for more lawyerquesting to take place.

First of all, kill variance - that solves most problems.

Second of all, make penalties for lawyerquest. If you submit a frivolous petition or are found that it doesn't hold up, you eat a 1-week suspension.

Make it fun! You get raid 3 petitions a month - use 'em wisely.

This.

Holy shit this.

Do you know why people send in all these petitions? Cause they are salty they lost and wasted 3-6 people's time staring at a wall for 16 hours doing nothing.

You HAVE rules that prevent old-age, 2011 poopsocking. You cannot sit on, camp at or bind at spawn points. You cannot FTE with someone at a bind point. You HAVE the rules in place to prevent the poopsocking which you site as the sole reason for unclassic Variance.

If people spent 30min buffing up and camping out before a window then spent 15-min waiting to batphone the spawn, and they lose. Tough shit. Unless it's something extreme like malicious training, they won't really care much that they lost a dragon. Less than an hour of time off their back, meh. We spend more waiting on boats to get to docks.

But with the current situation, losing dragons BLOWSSSSSSSS after spending so long camped out, or worse, wall staring (tracking).

If you want leave a small amount of randomness (10min+/- is fine) so that there isn't any CotH Ducking or other nonsense.... Fine, I'll give my approval "of non-classic change on basis of 5 years Kunark" stamp.

This will reduce petitions
This will increase casual involvement in raid scene
Due to current setup it will spread out spawn times after reset due to Class R inevitably waiting to kill their mob for hours until they have sufficient force etc.

Overall the raid game becomes more enjoyable for all participants. Other than the 0 people who like staring at a wall for 16 hours.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Did GMs even collect evidence of infractions and mediate disputes outside of the game in classic?

Yes. Rarely, but yes. It happened a few times on Prexus. Of course, we also had the server GM sleeping with a guild leader, so that's classic too.

[Ele]

Juntsie find it hard to believe that GM devote more time to petition process now than if petition process is approved and implemented. Juntsie not dispute dat GM spend large amount of time right now resolving unfortunate raid dispute (perhaps too much time - Juntsie support swift, in-game justice).

Do you have any experience with the current petition quest process? Please explain how a single petition thread with a total of 4 posts from the petitioner and petitionee would increase the work load of the GMs versus what current occurs?


But petition process stand to create large body of case-law that GM must reference to promote "consistent" ruling. It stand to promote lawyerquesting through painfully unclassic process. It take GM out of game and onto forum to review materials. Dis is painfully unclassic and against spirit of game and dis project.

This already happens.

What next? Appeal process?

Already happens.

Petition to Rogean for Review process?

Already happens.

Supplemental briefing?

Already happens.

Amicus briefing?

Already happens.

NOT CLASSIC. Juntsie again tink dat lawyerquest need bash in face.

This or another process would bash the current lawyerquest in the face. Rather than spending 1-5 hours a day talking to raid leaders via Skype and having out of game chat conversations, any dispute will have to be addressed in a single go with everything on the table and in the public eye.

[dustysr06]

further affirmation that blue does indeed...... S U C K

[dustysr06]

double posting, because thats how completely ridiculous this OP is (didnt read thread)

[Frieza_Prexus]

double posting, because thats how completely ridiculous this OP is (didnt read thread)

The only thing that's ridiculous is people like you jumping on the TLDR bandwagon and popping their mouths off when they didn't even bother to understand the issue.

I'll break it down for you: No rules is a shitfest of KSing, training, and exploiting, so we made a few rules. Some of those rules are kind of bad, so we change them to be better.

It's not that hard.

[falkun]

No rules is a shitfest of KSing, training, and exploiting, so we made a few rules.

And if people followed the Junstie philosophy of "its 20 years old", this would not happen. But the #1 guild has always pushed the envelope (probably always pushed there by the #2 guild), regardless of server era. Instead of pushing an arms race and lawyerquest, the top guilds should push disarmament. See the VD "open Trak raid slot" (excluding then-C guilds) and the BDA "will not engage every other raid spawn" for examples on disarmament, without being forced to by whole-server suspension for three weeks+.

[quido]

Hey you, play the game like I do.

[Frieza_Prexus]

And if people followed the Junstie philosophy of "its 20 years old", this would not happen. But the #1 guild has always pushed the envelope (probably always pushed there by the #2 guild), regardless of server era. Instead of pushing an arms race and lawyerquest, the top guilds should push disarmament. See the VD "open Trak raid slot" (excluding then-C guilds) and the BDA "will not engage every other raid spawn" for examples on disarmament, without being forced to by whole-server suspension for three weeks+.

I agree. It would be very nice if everyone could get along.

[Tasslehofp99]

Bump, this is important.



I'd like to know why petitions were ever a private affair. Just doesn't seem to make much sense if you want the people most invested in the server to feel as if they're getting a fair shake. Also having a reference point for previous raid disputes to serve as precedent would be great. This way rules aren't just made up on the fly or changed randomly, which has happened numerous times in the past few years.

[knix]

Bump

[Tasslehofp99]

Is there any possibility that public raid petitions will ever be implemented?

bump for Christmas wishes! lol


Making raid petitions public would go a long way towards keeping the raid scene clean and transparent, as there would be no room for the lying and lawyering that we've seen over the past months.

[Alunova]

1) Petition itself.
2) Defense from accused guild(s). If more than one guild is accused, each guild will now be able to defend itself, provide opposing evidence, etc.
3) Rebuttal from Petitioning guild (maybe put some kind of limit on this? could start with no limit and see what happens, placing a cap if needed)
4) Rebuttal from accused guild(s). Final post(s). The thread would be locked at this point so that only the staff could respond further.


I was just thinking about this before I saw it was already posted. Limiting posts would consolidate the relevant information and could be used to negotiate a solution by admitting a mistake during rebuttal instead of hanging on to straws through 100 pages of "evidence".

Would be interesting to see if it improves things. I'll support anything that makes life easier on CS staff.

[Frieza_Prexus]

While there's been a recent staff shakeup, perhaps this is still a good time to open the issue.

Public petitions with established rules will only serve to reduce the workload on the now reduced staff, and can only help in creating a fair and equitable environment.

[Lisset]

Go away thread necro.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Go away thread necro.

No.

I believe this is an important topic that would do nothing but benefit the server.

[knix]

bump

[arsenalpow]

I don't think its a good idea. It will turn every raid petition into RnF fodder / a popularity contest. I just want consistent rulings and complete transparency isn't exactly necessary for that.

[portbitch69]

this is classic everquest not law class

[portbitch69]

i just dont see them implementing another system to an already implemented raid system to try and fix years of stale content. just let them keep working on velious and if that doesnt fix problems then come back to this

[Ele]

i just dont see them implementing another system to an already implemented raid system to try and fix years of stale content. just let them keep working on velious and if that doesnt fix problems then come back to this

GMs != Devs.

this is classic everquest not law class

The GMs allow guild reps to put on their Perry Mason seersucker suits and solicit the "court" for hours each weeks via the forums, game chat, Twitch streaming, text messages, phone calls, and Skype to resolve the "disputes" known only to them.

Then on top of that, they can even trade petitions and rules infractions like carbon credits to wash out penalties.

[Pint]

Definitely would support public raid petitions, if a guild wants to try and petition another guild then they should be confident enough in their claim to air it publicly.

[portbitch69]

GMs != Devs.



The GMs allow guild reps to put on their Perry Mason seersucker suits and solicit the "court" for hours each weeks via the forums, game chat, Twitch streaming, text messages, phone calls, and Skype to resolve the "disputes" known only to them.

Then on top of that, they can even trade petitions and rules infractions like carbon credits to wash out penalties.

but you know Rogean has the final say, and how little he cares about this. he will delay until him and nilbog are ready for velious.

there is nothing stopping you guys from turning the raid discussion forum into this public petition forum.

tell your guild reps to stop the hours of behind the scenes "court" and just make it all public

[maskedmelon]

there is nothing stopping you guys from turning the raid discussion forum into this public petition forum.

tell your guild reps to stop the hours of behind the scenes "court" and just make it all public

This was my thought though it seems they want an arbitrator to structure/limit discussion.

[Frieza_Prexus]

but you know Rogean has the final say, and how little he cares about this. he will delay until him and nilbog are ready for velious.

there is nothing stopping you guys from turning the raid discussion forum into this public petition forum.

tell your guild reps to stop the hours of behind the scenes "court" and just make it all public

The point is generally to provide structure to the whole process. Right now, I think most parties can agree that it's a disorganized mess. Making it public provides accountability where there is currently very little.

Dozens to hundreds of man hours are wasted every time there's a dispute. If this shouldn't be "law class" then the GMs should stop playing that game, because right now, it's nothing but an exercise on elf-litigation. A streamlined process of petition > response > ruling makes so much more sense than dubious skype sessions, PM's, and other ex parte communications.

[Turp]

The GMs allow guild reps to put on their Perry Mason seersucker suits and solicit the "court" for hours each weeks via the forums, game chat, Twitch streaming, text messages, phone calls, and Skype to resolve the "disputes" known only to them.

Then on top of that, they can even trade petitions and rules infractions like carbon credits to wash out penalties.

It's sad , but true. (and funny when worded like that.

Guild disputes should be made public. It would end a lot of false accusing (extra work).
+Most of the people involved are not aware to what goes on in the behind the scene petition wars , until they are already facing the punishment.

http://i.imgur.com/dlCSRiP.gif

[Swish]

Definitely would support public raid petitions, if a guild wants to try and petition another guild then they should be confident enough in their claim to air it publicly.

Imagine the lawyering that would go on and people attempting to create loopholes based on previous decisions with slightly different circumstances.

Definitely a no vote. Sounds shitty for both GMs and players in practice.

[sambal]

http://i.imgur.com/ei7ifx0.gif

[Frieza_Prexus]

http://i.imgur.com/ei7ifx0.gif

GM's on live certainly did mediate disputes outside of the game.

At worst, this proposal is just as "not classic" as what we have right now, but it is far more efficient and fair.

[mutonizer]

Private petitions: Stays 100% between GM/guide, petitioner and defendant. Reduces drama.
Public petitions: Everyone start sharing their own opinion everywhere, misinformation goes on rampage, things go completely crazy, people get mad at each other, puppies are sacrificed to the blood god, P9X News is created. Start buying tickets and popcorn...

[sambal]

GM's on live certainly did mediate disputes outside of the game.

At worst, this proposal is just as "not classic" as what we have right now, but it is far more efficient and fair.

To be honest I don't understand the problem.

[tizznyres]

Open petitions is a no brainer

[rekreant]

Isnt it funny how most the people who derail the threads barely play anymore? Or are in the guild that Sirken is friends with?

[Tiggles]

Open petitions is a no brainer

[Champion_Standing]

Isnt it funny how most the people who derail the threads barely play anymore? Or are in the guild that Sirken is friends with?

Staff conspiracy theory brewing here GMs plz ban

[arsenalpow]

I'm all for transparency and fair play, but open petitions is just a peanut gallery popularity contest. It will just exacerbate any conflict.

[khanable]

I'm all for transparency and fair play, but open petitions is just a peanut gallery popularity contest. It will just exacerbate any conflict.

This is why some of us are all for it! :D

https://ten2onehundred.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/areyounotentertained.jpg

[arsenalpow]

This is why some of us are all for it! :D
ya, no reason to make the server a hospitable place, let's shit it up to keep that deathgrip on the pixels

[Clark]

Relative innovation? Not classic. :l

[Frieza_Prexus]

Private petitions: Stays 100% between GM/guide, petitioner and defendant. Reduces drama.
Public petitions: Everyone start sharing their own opinion everywhere, misinformation goes on rampage, things go completely crazy, people get mad at each other, puppies are sacrificed to the blood god, P9X News is created. Start buying tickets and popcorn...

I'm all for transparency and fair play, but open petitions is just a peanut gallery popularity contest. It will just exacerbate any conflict.

I disagree.

Public raid petitions will do nothing but improve the server. First, I perhaps should have named the thread a bit differently. It's not just about the openness of the dispute, it's also about accountability, simple and efficient procedure, and precedent.

1) Most petitions are already public in the sense that anyone who's going to troll about it is already doing so anonymously. These people will do this regardless of whether or not any petition is public. It becomes no more of a popularity contest than it already is. In fact, because the procedure is more efficient, problems are settled more quickly and the court of public opinion has less time to lobby.

2) Most importantly, the public petition idea also demands that raid petitions consist only of three steps with no amendment. Grievance > Defense > Ruling.

Right now, the process not only allows lawyer questing, but it encourages it. Guilds are rewarded for having elf-lawyers who are able to spend hours in Skype, PM's, and other channels going back and forth with the GMs, and this type of ex parte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex_parte) communication is anything but healthy for the raid scene. The idea isn't perfected yet, but even the most casual of scrutiny will notice that the current system is clearly inferior when considering fairness and efficiency.