Paladin vs SK

[jarlerop]

Are there any real differences in terms of mitigating damage and agrobility?
Just wondering

[username17]

Both classes hold threat well. Damage mitigation should be similar as well.

What I particularly like about the paladin class is the utility. Being a warrior/cleric hybrid is much more helpful to the group than being a warrior/necromancer hybrid.

I've been spending some time leveling my Paladin. She's just about to hit 40.

I can hold aggro without breaking mez or even doing any damage.
I only have 1 stun now but it's very helpful. Mob on the cleric or maybe interrupting the chanter's mez? I can stun the mob and if it doesn't get mezzed by the time the stun wears off it'll prob bee-line to me. Once it's in melee range I can use blind to keep it on me.

When tanking I'll position myself so I'm standing near the next mob I want to kill. At 20% I turn off attack, switch to the next mob and cast blind. Then I can safely break mez and have the mob focused on me. By the time the DPS switch over the mob is on me and not going anywhere.
Also, the heals are very very helpful. Paladins get stronger heals than rangers while leveling. It's not much, but at level 40 I'm almost always full mana and can help top people off with heals after combat.

If I were a SK with full mana there's not much I could really do to help the group out in between combat.

[Loadsamoney]

Both classes hold threat well. Damage mitigation should be similar as well.

What I particularly like about the paladin class is that I can hold aggro without breaking mez or even doing any damage. And with stuns I can do it from range.
I'll position myself so I'm standing next to the next mob I want to kill. At 20% I switch to the next mob, cast blind, and start attacking. By the time the DPS switch over the mob is on me and not going anywhere.
Also, the heals are very very helpful. Paladins get stronger heals than rangers while leveling. It's not much, but at level 40 I'm almost always full mana and can help top people off with heals after combat.
If I were a SK with full mana there's not much I could really do to help the group out.

Paladins get Superior Heal at 57. That puts them on the level of a Druid in actual healing ability, minus the mana efficiency. Torpor and CH are still ideal, but a Paladin can actually make a life-saving secondary healer when things get hairy. Superior Heal can bring someone back from the brink of death into fighting condition again.

Being Knights, Paladins and Shadowknights have the exact same natural mitigation, and their ability to generate snap aggro is about the same, although done a bit differently. Paladins use stuns for their aggro, SK's use dots and snares. End result is that Paladins are more defensive in nature, more self sufficient with their heals and Lay Hands, and are better against casters because of their ability to interrupt potentially devastating spells, while Shadowknights have somewhat higher DPS thanks to dots and their weak pet and so can end battles faster, and can also Feign Death if necessary, but generally won't survive as long on their own and really have no buffs or heals to support others with.

If I had to choose between one or the other for tanking, I would go with a Pally because of their heals and Lay Hands, generally makes them more self sufficient and able to survive longer in bad circumstances. Stuns are also a GREAT form of snap-aggro too, it's not building like an SK's dots, although Snare is very effective as well. But really, if you're tanking any sort of named Raid target, you really need a Warrior doing the tanking because of their higher mitigation and their disciplines.

Also, Paladins have, hands down, no contest, THE coolest Epic in the game, and it's one of the few 2h weapons that allows them to use Bash without a shield (the SK Epic does this as well, but is nowhere near as cool, and doesn't have any Armor Class as opposed to Fiery Defender).

[jarlerop]

Informative posts guys, thanks. Just started a pally/cleric duo with a friend maybe not the most efficient duo, but very nice for starting groups.

Seems both knights are equally liked for exp groups.

[webrunner5]

I would go Paladin if you are into grouping. They just pretty much suck solo. If you want to group often but like to solo go SK. Their fear kiting is repetitive but pretty efficient. And if you go Troll or Iksar the re-gen is nice.

Neither class is known for a LOT of DPS but they both can hold agro well and both have some nice spells. Heck the Paladin 90% rez end game is a big plus. But I would bet a Paladin is the least played class on here. They will be wanted a lot more when Velious comes out. Good puller.

[Brut]

(the SK Epic does this as well, but is nowhere near as cool

That's OK we been Bashing just fine without it. /flex

But basically pally sits at zoneins, while SK is FDing and CoSing his way around the world adventuring. Is a matter of preference - ones a support role, the other isnt. People generally want SK to be more proactive with pulling and whatnot too, so the exceptations of what you can do out there are quite a bit higher.

[jarlerop]

Not too worried about soloability as this char wont be played without my cleric friend. CoS and FD are awesome tho :-)

[username17]

Cleric/Pally is a fine duo. But you're a little low on DPS. Pick up chanter and some DPS and you're set for some massive fun.

[Conky]

Paladins get Superior Heal at 57. That puts them on the level of a Druid in actual healing ability, minus the mana efficiency. Torpor and CH are still ideal, but a Paladin can actually make a life-saving secondary healer when things get hairy. Superior Heal can bring someone back from the brink of death into fighting condition again.

Being Knights, Paladins and Shadowknights have the exact same natural mitigation, and their ability to generate snap aggro is about the same, although done a bit differently. Paladins use stuns for their aggro, SK's use dots and snares. End result is that Paladins are more defensive in nature, more self sufficient with their heals and Lay Hands, and are better against casters because of their ability to interrupt potentially devastating spells, while Shadowknights have somewhat higher DPS thanks to dots and their weak pet and so can end battles faster, and can also Feign Death if necessary, but generally won't survive as long on their own and really have no buffs or heals to support others with.

If I had to choose between one or the other for tanking, I would go with a Pally because of their heals and Lay Hands, generally makes them more self sufficient and able to survive longer in bad circumstances. Stuns are also a GREAT form of snap-aggro too, it's not building like an SK's dots, although Snare is very effective as well. But really, if you're tanking any sort of named Raid target, you really need a Warrior doing the tanking because of their higher mitigation and their disciplines.

Also, Paladins have, hands down, no contest, THE coolest Epic in the game, and it's one of the few 2h weapons that allows them to use Bash without a shield (the SK Epic does this as well, but is nowhere near as cool, and doesn't have any Armor Class as opposed to Fiery Defender).

Fear kite owns casters, FD out survives anything a paly can do, disease cloud best aggro spell for mana in the game, also bad circumstances should not happen with FD and life taps work very well in battle to keep you topped up. Not to mention, invis, pet, more dps, debuffs and can pick ogre for stun immunity or iksar/troll for regen. I like both classes and each have perks but dont sell SKs short.

[Kich867]

According to the wiki, Paladins can obtain the same Defense skill as Warriors, SK's however only go up to 240 (unless this information is false).

I was under the impression that on some level your AC is dictated by your Defense and Agility stats, assuming the same AC/AGI gear do warriors and paladins not have the same AC? Maybe leaning towards the Paladin due to the shield?

[Pheer]

Are there any real differences in terms of mitigating damage and agrobility?
Just wondering

not really

[Phased]

I played a paladin for 400 days /played on live. But here I'm not going to do that again, they were pretty weak during the Kunark era.

To be honest, it really comes down to play style as both are great tanks. Do you want to pull dungeons with feign death or stay back with the group while the monk/SK pulls it? Do you want to be able to solo with fear kiting or is your only chance rooting and backup to heal, which isn't efficient. For duoing with a cleric there's nothing that you bring that the cleric can't do.

SK gear is a little more expensive than paladin gear comparing Deepwater to Blood Ember. As an SK you probably won't complete your epic whereas the Fiery Defender is easily doable.

[webrunner5]

But here I'm not going to do that again, they were pretty weak during the Kunark era. For duoing with a cleric there's nothing that you bring that the cleric can't do.

He has a VERY good point about the Cleric Paladin duo. :(

[Erati]

Shadow Knights not only get like the coolest Sky gear ( its also stupid common ) but they get super nice BP and earring as a epic side reward

Paladins get shit on in Skyplane ( 3 weapons WTF ) and we have no epic side rewards to use

Plus the SK epic > Paly epic in terms of utility....would rather have a DOT heal than a 155 damage/stun proc


HOWEVER, being that I have a lvl 60 paly....he is way more useful in every non-pulling non-solo situation than a SK and much more noble

the 300 hp heal from the DW BP is nothing to sneeze at nor is the free helmet heal

[Loadsamoney]

According to the wiki, Paladins can obtain the same Defense skill as Warriors, SK's however only go up to 240 (unless this information is false).

I was under the impression that on some level your AC is dictated by your Defense and Agility stats, assuming the same AC/AGI gear do warriors and paladins not have the same AC? Maybe leaning towards the Paladin due to the shield?

Depending on the equipment, yes, Paladins can have higher AC, but AC is not the same as natural mitigation. Ever notice how some classes just get ripped apart in melee combat despite having really good armor or equipment that should keep them from getting shredded so quickly? That's mitigation. It's a hidden stat that determines how much damage from each attack gets through, and how much is shrugged off, or ignored. Warriors have the highest value of this invisible stat, more so than Paladins or SK's, and that is why they are the primary, secondary, and tertiary consideration for Raid tanking. Paladins and SK's make great off-tanks for their snap aggro, but no matter how good their equipment is, they simply cannot survive as long tanking a Raid boss as a Warrior can (they CAN do it, but it's more work on the heals and a bigger chance of wiping).

(also, Warriors have higher caps to Dodge, Parry, and Riposte, which further helps them avoid incoming damage)

[HeallunRumblebelly]

The fuck kind of discussion is this. Warriors are god tier alpha males of tanking and pretty okay dps. More utility than a paladin with clickies. Sk is puller without void dance disc but with CoS. Good for monks who can't bother to get their rings recharged.

[jarlerop]

So if i may steal my own thread a little here, what 1hander would you chose for under 2k for a pally? Jade mace or go with something less ratio more procc?

Also have a question regarding flash of light. It seems its a big nono to cast when mobs are running towards me as they run mental all over the place, but will stand still while blinded in melee range. Is this correct? I also get a lot of interrupts when trying to peel mobs off casters if many are hitting me, but i guess thats just life :-)

[Loadsamoney]

So if i may steal my own thread a little here, what 1hander would you chose for under 2k for a pally? Jade mace or go with something less ratio more procc?

Also have a question regarding flash of light. It seems its a big nono to cast when mobs are running towards me as they run mental all over the place, but will stand still while blinded in melee range. Is this correct? I also get a lot of interrupts when trying to peel mobs off casters if many are hitting me, but i guess thats just life :-)

Sword of the Morning.

[kaev]

Sword of the Morning.

The paladin hate on this server is so immensely amazingly idiot strong that I saw an SotM for 400p in EC over the weekend. If the Paladin 41% haste Sky belt was tradeable it'd probably sell for about the same as an FBSS. Mention the word paladin to a crowd of p99ers and the collective idiocy meter instantly pegs with a reading of OVER 9000!

[Phased]

I also get a lot of interrupts when trying to peel mobs off casters if many are hitting me, but i guess thats just life :-)

That'll happen regularly until your channeling skill goes up significantly. Although you shouldn't be tanking too many things at a time since you should be root parking them anyhow.

As far as weapons go you want to use 2Handers unless you're going up against casters. People don't like paladins due to their low DPS (at least with SKs, they can use spells to increase theirs). So get yourself an Axe of Lost Souls and have at it.

[Loadsamoney]

The paladin hate on this server is so immensely amazingly idiot strong that I saw an SotM for 400p in EC over the weekend. If the Paladin 41% haste Sky belt was tradeable it'd probably sell for about the same as an FBSS. Mention the word paladin to a crowd of p99ers and the collective idiocy meter instantly pegs with a reading of OVER 9000!

I should make a Paladin just to see. Paladin was my main back in the days of Luclin.

I miss my Luclin Bard and Beastlords. Double Attack AA's made everything wonderful.

[falkun]

Why axe of lost souls (http://wiki.project1999.com/Axe_of_Lost_Souls) when a baton of faith (http://wiki.project1999.com/Baton_of_Faith) is the same ratio...is -5AC/WIS/INT +10STR/STA, +5SvALL really worth 1900p?

[Phased]

Why axe of lost souls (http://wiki.project1999.com/Axe_of_Lost_Souls) when a baton of faith (http://wiki.project1999.com/Baton_of_Faith) is the same ratio...is -5AC/WIS/INT +10STR/STA, +5SvALL really worth 1900p?

The stats have nothing to do with it. It's all about the look!

[falkun]

OP's trying to keep costs down, so the vanity can wait until OP can afford it. Practically...get the baton and don't replace it until FA/FD.

[kaev]

I should make a Paladin just to see. Paladin was my main back in the days of Luclin.

It's not universal, just as the similarly foolish Ranger hate is not universal. It is strong enough that decent Paladin gear is super cheap.

Flash of Light is, imo, way more effective here than it ever was on live. There were some negative issues with FoL before they got most of the wonky pathing fixed. It seems to me that FoL lasts full/near-full duration way more than it did on live, I'm not sure I've ever even noticed it not lasting full duration on me or a mob, and the spell itself seems to me to give much more agro than it did in-era on live.

So agro is pretty easy to manage here for a Paladin. You don't really need your stuns for much of anything except bailing out the Enchanter until you run into gating mobs (Hate, Sebilis, maybe Chardok but that place is toxic with AEers so not sure) and the CH casting healers and Ice Comet casting wizards in various higher level dungeons. Maybe toss one stun in with your FoLs if your group's Monk/Rogue is too lazy to dump agro even once during a fight and you don't feel like calling them out on it. FoL works so well here it's funny that the anti-Paladin hate continues, Paladin agro advantage over Warrior is about as OP here as it was in Luclin/PoP on live due to the cheap/fast stuns they added in Luclin. (For raid bosses the Warriors here have Midnight Mallets for easy-mode snap agro.) All I can figure is there must've been a lot of really poorly played Paladins around here before I started that permanently scarred the server's collective consciousness.

Also, people here are even more close-minded than they were on live about the advantages of having both a knight and a Warrior in group. About the only thing they can imagine doing is having the Warrior berzerk for semi-decent dps.

[iruinedyourday]

I always felt like high elf paladins were always a little, mentally challenged.

no offence. :/

[kaev]

I always felt like high elf paladins were always a little, mentally challenged.

no offence. :/

No offence taken by this Half-Elf Paladin. :)

[Loadsamoney]

If I'm gonna be a Paladin, it's gonna be a Dwarf. I like my barrel roll.

[Kich867]

Also, people here are even more close-minded than they were on live about the advantages of having both a knight and a Warrior in group. About the only thing they can imagine doing is having the Warrior berzerk for semi-decent dps.

This is pretty interesting to me. Rogues and Monks get an extra attack on some cooldown that does great damage, however Warriors in Berserk mode can quad-damage crit people.

Given that most things on EQ seem more about gut-feelings than they do actual hard data (since hard data is actually difficult to come by without disclosing actual formulas), I wonder what that actual comparison is.

Like, it's suspected that critical attack chance can be influenced by Dexterity, but is that actually proven anywhere? I'd be interested to see what a well geared warrior in STR / DEX gear or maybe even just buffed up to max via shaman can do. One observation I've had is that Crits don't seem to be a PPM based thing, I've seen a warrior get quite a few critical hits back to back and later AA's seem to imply it's % based.

I'd love to see actual calculations on a lot of things, being able to back up gear selections with math would be super cool. I'm also inclined to believe a berserking warrior is actually pretty boss DPS, maybe not higher than a rogue but more than semi-decent.

[iruinedyourday]

If I'm gonna be a Paladin, it's gonna be a Dwarf. I like my barrel roll.

Do a Barrel roll! (https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome-psyapi2&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS579US579&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8&q=do%20a%20barrel%20roll)

[Danth]

I have a Paladin and a Shadow Knight as the two classes I've played to high levels on P1999. The Shadow Knight is my current P1999 main character. I have a couple other, lower-level Paladin alts (it's my favorite class, historically). Here are my feelings on the matter:

I duo'd with a Cleric (my wife played one) most the time on my Paladin. It's a serviceable duo for low-mid levels but it sort of runs out of steam past about 50 as monster hit point pools and damage output begin to scale much more rapidly than your own damage output. I consider Paladins a bit more specialized than Shadow Knights. Paladins make probably the best tank for experience groups in the game due to having massive tanking control, excellent ability to shut down casting monsters, and useful defensive healing ability. Beyond that, however, they're not in high demand for raids and aren't a stellar solo or duo class. If you want to tank for experience groups as your primary job in Norrath, it's a fine class and you'll like the cheap cost of equipment. Most players prefer something either more versatile or more focused on the end-game, hence the Paladin's lack of popularity.

Shadow Knights don't have as many defensive tanking tools as Paladins, but still perform the job adequately and either class tanks more easily than Warriors do for typical groups. In exchange for less control while tanking, Shadow Knights come with generally better versatility and more quality of life utility. They solo better than Paladins, make generally better duo partners (particularly at higher levels), get around more easily, and typically won't die as often. A Shadow Knight/Cleric duo would have an easier time duo'ing than a Paladin/Cleric duo past about level 50 or so, though it's still not an ideal duo.

The Cleric part of either duo forms a fine backbone for building larger groups and for getting guild invites, but as a pure duo partner it isn't so optimal a choice as a Shaman would've been. You probably already know that but I figured I'd mention it all the same.

Comparing the two classes in terms of relative power at various levels, I'd say the Paladin is at its best at mid levels, particularly the 30's and 40's. The Shadow Knight seems to come into its own at very high levels, 50+ and especially 55+. I enjoy Paladins as alts from 10 through to into the 40's, but I wouldn't care to level another Shadow Knight...just feels too weak until 50+. At 60 I consider the Shadow Knight generally the better class for typical conditions on P1999, but getting to 60 is a very long road, the majority of hybrids don't make it, and the Paladin feels stronger for much of the leveling process.

Danth

[Nlaar]

The Shadow Knight seems to come into its own at very high levels, 50+ and especially 55+. ... but I wouldn't care to level another Shadow Knight...just feels too weak until 50+.

Truth.

[jarlerop]

I have a Paladin and a Shadow Knight as the two classes I've played to high levels on P1999. The Shadow Knight is my current P1999 main character. I have a couple other, lower-level Paladin alts (it's my favorite class, historically). Here are my feelings on the matter:
Danth

Thanks for sharing your wisdom on the matter.
I know the duo is not ideal, but we will mostly be making groups or just duo until we can find more people or join an excisting group.

We are only lvl 10, so im using 1h a little longer. Was thinking about getting a ghoulbane and go nuts in befallen with the cleric undead dd line :-)

Thanks for suggestions on weapons. For now ive bought a Sword of morning and gonna go for the cheap but good 2hb as well. Other than that ive tried focusing on raw hp-sta-str in that order. Does that sound about right?

[kaev]

Thanks for sharing your wisdom on the matter.
I know the duo is not ideal, but we will mostly be making groups or just duo until we can find more people or join an excisting group.

We are only lvl 10, so im using 1h a little longer. Was thinking about getting a ghoulbane and go nuts in befallen with the cleric undead dd line :-)

Thanks for suggestions on weapons. For now ive bought a Sword of morning and gonna go for the cheap but good 2hb as well. Other than that ive tried focusing on raw hp-sta-str in that order. Does that sound about right?

By the time ghoulbane procs (L20) you'll do better in Unrest than Befallen, I'm thinking. Good luck and have fun!

[jarlerop]

By the time ghoulbane procs (L20) you'll do better in Unrest than Befallen, I'm thinking. Good luck and have fun!

Haha somehow i thought it was lvl10. Thanks.

[Phased]

Other than that ive tried focusing on raw hp-sta-str in that order. Does that sound about right?

Focus on AC. It's by far the best bang for your buck. You want to be one of those paladins running around with as much Deepwater as possible.

HP is great for surviving pulls but until your cleric friend gets complete heal it won't make your duo any more efficient.

A decent 1hander or fast 2hander(nathsar) is good for now, but at level 20 when the damage cap goes away you'll want that baton or axe.

[Loadsamoney]

By the time ghoulbane procs (L20) you'll do better in Unrest than Befallen, I'm thinking. Good luck and have fun!

Oh yes, Ghoulbane. I I remember using that in Unrest at 40 back in the days of Luclin, to get vengeance on those Goddamn Festering Hags. Felt good.

[Jfertal]

Shadowknights can be ogres. I mean that should end this thread.

The ability to snare fear, dot, fd, hide, instant click invis. I mean prior to the invis pulling thread, who would not want to have fun pulling on an SK virtually god mode throughout any zone, no wonder so many people complained about that shit. Jealousy. Not only can we heal ourselves, but do detrimental damage while doing so is huge.

Shadowknights generate way more hate for agro. Our epic hits harder, looks cooler, better effect.
Our class choices are far superior, seeing how we can have immune frontal stun, more stamina, the ability to choose classes that can slam prior to using epic.

[username17]

If I'm gonna be a Paladin, it's gonna be a Dwarf. I like my barrel roll.

Sadly Female dwarves don't get barrel roll. But I guess the Beard and the huge knockers make up for it.

[Loadsamoney]

Shadowknights can be ogres. I mean that should end this thread.

The ability to snare fear, dot, fd, hide, instant click invis. I mean prior to the invis pulling thread, who would not want to have fun pulling on an SK virtually god mode throughout any zone, no wonder so many people complained about that shit. Jealousy. Not only can we heal ourselves, but do detrimental damage while doing so is huge.

Shadowknights generate way more hate for agro. Our epic hits harder, looks cooler, better effect.
Our class choices are far superior, seeing how we can have immune frontal stun, more stamina, the ability to choose classes that can slam prior to using epic.

Who said Ogres were the top tier Godlike no comparison race to end all races?

[Brut]

Who said Ogres were the top tier Godlike no comparison race to end all races?
EVERYONE.

[Loadsamoney]

EVERYONE.

Elaborate. Because I don't see how frontal stun immunity is THAT HUGE. The massive Str/Sta scores and Slam maybe, but...

[Brut]

Elaborate. Because I don't see how frontal stun immunity is THAT HUGE. The massive Str/Sta scores and Slam maybe, but...
I've played both an ogre and a troll SK, and the troll felt like a huge downgrade in efficiency. Even with just one mob, you have to time your spells to get them off between the bash rounds. Multiple mobs on you, it's just not happening. Panic situation with mobs about to kill you, you'll be relying on luck to get an FD off.

It's not "THAT" huge, but it is pretty damned awesome, and no doubt best racial ability in the game. On a warrior it hardly matters, but on SK/SHM stun immunity is awesome. People can act like it's not such a huge deal and how they don't get what all the fuss is about, and I'd say they've only seen one side of the fence.

[Daldaen]

SK is the only argument I see.

Shamans have slow which greatly reduces occurrence of bashes.
Warrior stuns are annoying but hardly effect your ability to tank at all
SK the FD pull thing is huge, not getting that interrupted is very crucial. That being said, Iksars are very boss... Especially come Velious. Dat Greenmist, so classic, so epic, so many wow.

[Loadsamoney]

I've played both an ogre and a troll SK, and the troll felt like a huge downgrade in efficiency. Even with just one mob, you have to time your spells to get them off between the bash rounds. Multiple mobs on you, it's just not happening. Panic situation with mobs about to kill you, you'll be relying on luck to get an FD off.

It's not "THAT" huge, but it is pretty damned awesome, and no doubt best racial ability in the game. On a warrior it hardly matters, but on SK/SHM stun immunity is awesome. People can act like it's not such a huge deal and how they don't get what all the fuss is about, and I'd say they've only seen one side of the fence.

If I'm going to play an Ogre as a SK/Warr, it's more because I'm looking at those huge Str and Sta scores, and perhaps even more that Slam racial for the SK, giving me the option to use a 2her and not lose Bash.

Man, I wish one of the Pally races could use Slam. You'd think a Dwarf would be able to with their giantass fists and beefy upper bodies.

[Tuljin]

Between Bash and multiple stuns Slam is pretty much unnecessary on a Paladin.

Flash of Light is OP and its even more OP when used in proper conjunction with stuns. FoL doesn't generate hate, it only snaps the mob. Hitting a mob with Stun on the way into camp makes sure he comes right to you (unless an Enc pet gets in the way) Also hitting a mob with Stun mid-fight keeps you high on the hate list, and lets not forget about knocking out nasty spells from Frogloks in Seb etc. Its easy to have two stuns in spellbar and bash, which is plenty.

Root is also awesome. Things are pretty rough with lvl 1 root in your low 50s (doesn't stick at all) but at 54 you get Enstill, which sticks really nicely and for a long time. You can have reliable root pulls as well as nice splits.

Pal and SK are very similar in principal, but quite different in reality. IMHO the magic spells Stun and Root (lets not forget about heals) and their incredible effectiveness in the hands of a good tank completely trump the SK feign death ability. (Yes Paladins can also Calm btw) Fear kite with snare is nice on SK, but Pal can also fear undead, they just need a snare class to help.

They can both snap agro, but thats where the similarities end. It seems the kind of folks who play SK are very interested in damage output on a class that we all know wont deal as much damage as other melees. They are also interested in FD very much. Melee-heavy players seem to steer towards SK and try to make them as much of a "warrior" as possible, but that's never going to happen. Having said that, its very beneficial to go Ogre SK for the stats and frontal stun immunity.

People steer away from Paladin because of how "weak" it is and because you truly have to leverage magic to be excellent. Paladins are not strong, but they can pull, tank, save Enchanters asses on charm breaks, and mitigate NPC caster threat like no other. It just requires a very skilled player.

[Locust]

If I'm going to play an Ogre as a SK/Warr, it's more because I'm looking at those huge Str and Sta scores, and perhaps even more that Slam racial for the SK, giving me the option to use a 2her and not lose Bash.

Man, I wish one of the Pally races could use Slam. You'd think a Dwarf would be able to with their giantass fists and beefy upper bodies.

don't discount positioning mobs as a tank. as an ogre you can turn while back pedaling to position the mob exactly where you want it. try that as a non ogre and you're gonna whirl til you hurl if you get bashed.

[kaev]

Frankly, since it's all about the pixels, Half-Elf Paladin/Warrior/Bard are the best available race/class combos. With classic graphics no other race looks half as sharp as a Half-Elf in plate, male or female. The only real competition is Ogre or Troll anything, that ass-scratching idle animation makes up for an awful lot of ugly. Dorfs and lizards have all the fugly of an Ogre/Troll with none of the ass-scratching awesomeness.

[vid]

Frankly, since it's all about the pixels, Half-Elf Paladin/Warrior/Bard are the best available race/class combos. With classic graphics no other race looks half as sharp as a Half-Elf in plate, male or female. The only real competition is Ogre or Troll anything, that ass-scratching idle animation makes up for an awful lot of ugly. Dorfs and lizards have all the fugly of an Ogre/Troll with none of the ass-scratching awesomeness.

This guy gets it.

[Brut]

Stun and Root (lets not forget about heals) and their incredible effectiveness in the hands of a good tank completely trump the SK feign death ability.

Wat? Apple juice is also a better drink than a baked potato?

Or are there SKs out there that somehow utilize FD while main tanking?

[falkun]

Frankly, since it's all about the pixels, Half-Elf Paladin/Warrior/Bard are the best available race/class combos. With classic graphics no other race looks half as sharp as a Half-Elf in plate, male or female. The only real competition is Ogre or Troll anything, that ass-scratching idle animation makes up for an awful lot of ugly. Dorfs and lizards have all the fugly of an Ogre/Troll with none of the ass-scratching awesomeness.

Until you get to Velious armor, when all the other paladin races beat out the HEF dildo helmet (dem human dragon, dwarven bucket, and high elf white tiger helmets).

[Raev]

Brut, I think once the pull is over and mobs are in camp, a paladin has way more tools (stun/root/heal) than a shadowknight (fear/snare/lifetap) or god forbid a warrior/monk (clickies only, basically) to keep the group alive. Now whether those abilities outweigh FD? In my opinion they do not.

P.S. Half Elves look retarded.

[Brut]

Brut, I think once the pull is over and mobs are in camp, a paladin has way more tools (stun/root/heal) than a shadowknight (fear/snare/lifetap) or god forbid a warrior/monk (clickies only, basically) to keep the group alive. Now whether those abilities outweigh FD? In my opinion they do not.

P.S. Half Elves look retarded.

Yyyyyyyyyes but why are we comparing two completely different fields of abilities and then claiming one completely trumps the other? 100% apples and oranges.

[Raev]

fuck your apple, give me the vitamin c in the orange every day. Fewer pesticides too IIRC.

[Jfertal]

Shadow knights get rest the dead. Not as effective but you can single mobs out of emp room. And if its fails you can fd, where if a pally fails your sup heal and roots wont save your group. The other classes in the group will.

[Erati]

90% res makes Paladins the perfect duo partner for those Seb crypt campers as you can corpse all the hiero cloaks you get and just live down there forever!

[Tuljin]

Yyyyyyyyyes but why are we comparing two completely different fields of abilities and then claiming one completely trumps the other? 100% apples and oranges.

"Completely trumps" probably isn't the best way to describe it - and it definitely is like comparing apples and oranges. FD is an incredibly powerful ability, but as Raev said the Paladin tools are more useful to the group once in camp than FD. I personally would rather have these abilities than the ability to FD, which is why I chose a Paladin over an SK for a knight. Also, for RP reasons, a brave Paladin does not resort to such cowardly tactics.

My point is the Paladin/SK discussion in itself is pretty much comparing apples and oranges. The tanking and snap agro ability are pretty much the only similarities in how the classes are played. FD is frequently cited as the main reason why people choose SK for a Knight, which is why I use it as an example.

To bring up the "who would use FD while being MT" discussion, I can't really see a situation where the Knight wouldn't be the MT in a dungeon. If a Knight and Warrior are in the same group, the Warrior should gear for DPS and let the Knight hold the agro and pull. For the Warrior to tank and the Knight to go for "DPS" doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense. If there are multiple Knights in the group, well, take turns snapping agro I guess lol (this group configuration happens VERY rarely)

On Paladin I end up pulling and tanking. Root pulls are incredibly effective, and Root (Fetter) is really the preferred method of CC for an excellent Enchanter. In HS for example the majority of mobs are melee, and its easy to keep them stuck with an OP low mana fast cast root that you can easily stack. Paladin is also decent at lulling with levels and CHA gear/buffs, tho a root pull vs. a calm pull is entirely situational.

If you have an Enchanter (which I rarely stick around for if I have enough people to make a group work) he will be calming the really tough rooms. Why is a Paladin still awesome in this situation? On a crit resist the Paladin can toss a heal and grab heal agro. He can tank enough to live and give the Enc enough time to get off an AOE mez or whatever he has to do to keep the XP bar moving. This is something an SK can't do, however this is also another example of apples and oranges.

[Lune]

Both classes are bad, really.

Get a monk instead, no reason not to in 90% of situations. Yes, knights have cool tricks for certain narrow circumstances and emergencies, but look at an entire 9 hour grind session or whatever you are doing... you're going to miss the monk's dps, and having more dps will probably save the day just as many times as having clutch abilities. Most knight utility gets eclipsed by shamans and enchanters, and those classes are ubiquitous. DPS stacks endlessly; you can never have enough.

This has more to do with monks being overpowered pieces of shit than anything, though. That's my perspective, it made me really unhappy playing my SK at high levels. Monks have great agro, great mitigation, great DPS, great utility. Grrreat! (http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1785607!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/tony9n-3-web.jpg) Fuck em.

[kaev]

Both classes are bad, really.

Get a monk instead, no reason not to in 90% of situations. Yes, knights have cool tricks for certain narrow circumstances and emergencies, but look at an entire 9 hour grind session or whatever you are doing... you're going to miss the monk's dps, and having more dps will probably save the day just as many times as having clutch abilities. Most knight utility gets eclipsed by shamans and enchanters, and those classes are ubiquitous. DPS stacks endlessly; you can never have enough.

This has more to do with monks being overpowered pieces of shit than anything, though. That's my perspective, it made me really unhappy playing my SK at high levels. Monks have great agro, great mitigation, great DPS, great utility. Grrreat! (http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1785607!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/tony9n-3-web.jpg) Fuck em.

Neither knight is bad, both knight classes are good. I will agree with "monks being overpowered", but the only pieces of shit I see are the trolls from red they allow to run free shitting up threads here with unchecked abandon.

[Esheon]

Personally, I prefer to play the paladin. That's mainly for looks & RP, though. I have tried and tried to get an Iksar going, but the whole "we're all eeeeevil" thing just doesn't work for me.

On my druid, I find both paladin and SK pretty even in terms of tanking & holding aggro, assuming similarly-geared, similarly-skilled players. It's another case of "play what you want, it's all good", IMO.

[Loadsamoney]

Neither knight is bad, both knight classes are good. I will agree with "monks being overpowered", but the only pieces of shit I see are the trolls from red they allow to run free shitting up threads here with unchecked abandon.

Didn't Monks get some sort of nerf in Velious? I think it had something to do with their mitigation, made them a lot squishier or something.

[Lune]

Didn't Monks get some sort of nerf in Velious? I think it had something to do with their mitigation, made them a lot squishier or something.

Pretty sure that nerf came either in Luclin or the very very end of Velious, after the apex of their overpoweredness during Velious.

You can't have monks being the way they are, and still call knights 'good'. That's like saying riding a horse is a good way to go travel 100 miles quickly. Yea, you can go 100 miles on a horse.... but cars exist.

[Loadsamoney]

Pretty sure that nerf came either in Luclin or the very very end of Velious, after the apex of their overpoweredness during Velious.

You can't have monks being the way they are, and still call knights 'good'. That's like saying riding a horse is a good way to go travel 100 miles quickly. Yea, you can go 100 miles on a horse.... but cars exist.

Being bad by comparison doesn't make them bad PERIOD.

[Danth]

Monks are generally better, but not everyone wants to be a Monk. Monks aren't so much better as to render the alternatives useless. For example, I'm hard-pressed to think of many things a Monk/Shaman can duo that a Shadow Knight/Shaman cannot. Also, while Monks reach the apex of their power during Velious, proportionally the knights probably gain more during Velious than Monks do--as such, the gap between them actually narrows a bit. Velious was a melee-centric expansion in general. Monks ultimately remain stronger, I won't dispute that, but again: Not everyone wants to be a Monk.

Danth

[Phased]

Also, while Monks reach the apex of their power during Velious, proportionally the knights probably gain more during Velious than Monks do

Paladins simply aren't good in Kunark, and while they get a little better in Velious but only because they're so bad now. You can grab one for a group when you need a tank, but you need one paladin for a raid and that's to cast Divine Strength. You cannot make a case for another one when almost any other class is available.

This thread is about paladin vs SK, both are okay. Play the one that fits your style if it's really something you want. But given the choice between hybrid and non-hybrid your choice should be obvious. Having played one for hundreds of days /played you couldn't pay me enough to play a paladin during Kunark/Velious, outside of exp groups it was awful.

[Latege]

Monks actually had the highest overall damage reduction in the game until those nerfs came in right before Luclin, even higher than warriors, that's why they are so overpowered. The only reason they didn't raid tank was because a large part of it came from avoidance rather than mitigation, which would get them gibbed on a couple bad rolls in the short run.

[kaev]

Paladins simply aren't good in Kunark, and while they get a little better in Velious but only because they're so bad now. You can grab one for a group when you need a tank, but you need one paladin for a raid and that's to cast Divine Strength. You cannot make a case for another one when almost any other class is available.

This thread is about paladin vs SK, both are okay. Play the one that fits your style if it's really something you want. But given the choice between hybrid and non-hybrid your choice should be obvious. Having played one for hundreds of days /played you couldn't pay me enough to play a paladin during Kunark/Velious, outside of exp groups it was awful.

Hey now, Divine Favor is awesome for setting yourself up to eat the next DT in Sky. Who wouldn't want a pro raider ability like that? And no Rogue or Monk ever plowed enrage the way a Paladin with a Bixie Swordblade can plow enrage. Plus, with your flaming epeen in hand you do absolutely lovely pirouettes when that bash or stunproc catches you turning. As an added bonus you can out-dps Clerics, pure awesomeness there!

[Phased]

Hey now, Divine Favor is awesome for setting yourself up to eat the next DT in Sky. Who wouldn't want a pro raider ability like that? And no Rogue or Monk ever plowed enrage the way a Paladin with a Bixie Swordblade can plow enrage. Plus, with your flaming epeen in hand you do absolutely lovely pirouettes when that bash or stunproc catches you turning. As an added bonus you can out-dps Clerics, pure awesomeness there!

Haha and you can do it all in style because Half Elf paladins look pimpin. Robocop helm go!

[Chrysus]

Neither knight is bad, both knight classes are good. I will agree with "monks being overpowered", but the only pieces of shit I see are the trolls from red they allow to run free shitting up threads here with unchecked abandon.

You could easily argue that every class is "good", especially if you adjust all the metrics to their strengths. However in overall effectiveness and usefulness across the entire game (solo'ing, grouping, raiding, farming, pulling, tanking, xp penalties, etc.) it's quite easy to argue paladins the weakest class overall, to which I'd agree.

That said, the only thing I really dislike about the class is they get absolutely screwed on sky loot. 3 swords, 2 of which suck, none of which you'll use over your epic, and the weakest haste belt. So essentially they get 1 sky item. Compare it with any other class (including SKs) and it's as if they entirely forgot the class when they designed sky then just tacked the quests after.

/Duo'd with a paladiin 1-60, doubtful any other class combination would have been a better balance of effectiveness and fun, in part because it was so unusual in the p99 min/max'er world.

[iruinedyourday]

throwin' this thought out there - with an enchanter I prefer (of the two classes) my partner to be a paladin. They can get aggro without breaking mez's so I can pre-slow and stuff.. they can finish off merbs for me when we duo and they can heal themselves while I let the pets battle, they can stun when hasted pets break etc.. they are really great combo with enchanters!

With my Shaman I prefer the SK! They can get aggro by throwing on dots on root-rotting mobs, I can heal them so no need for them to use a click to keep them selves up, and they can snatch aggro off me when a root breaks early while standing in place by simply targeting and tossing a small dot on a merb.

I like the synergy of the 4 classes - who all have weird connections in power/abilities.

Sham/SK Vs. Pally/Enchanter would be a fun best of the best duo combat challenge! :D

[kaev]

Aye, Paladin Sky loot is weak.

The better of the two one-handers is race-restricted (what the fucking fuckity fuck fuck?). I do use the inferior 1-hander (or once in a while the silly Bixie Sword Blade) with an SBS when it's necessary to avoid agro, but that doesn't make it good. (I am half tempted to redo Fiery Avenger just to have a low agro 2H option.) The Wind Etched Armor pieces just barely qualify as upgrades over Valorium and besides that they drop only from poopsock favorite Noble Dojorn. The trash drop Symbol of Marr looks good when you first see it, but you soon realize that its AC/Wis/Str are far less important than HP and/or Resists on raid gear so you never wear it, as opposed to the Cleric's Weight of the Gods or the Druid's Treant Tear & etc.

In the end you have only the haste belt. There's really nothing to compare to the marvelous toys most everybody else gets. It's a nice haste belt, but while 41% haste is exciting on a pure melee it's just kinda neat on a knight who has shit for dps regardless and relies on spell-casting for agro (make it an FT3 belt and it would be exciting :p).

[Phased]

Kunark is the era where I really don't think paladins had anyone actually playing them. The developer must have quit during this time frame, or possibly rerolled warrior/monk/rogue. They must have figured having a flaming sword and the ability to rezz people was sufficient enough.

Deepwater/Blood Ember is closer in AC to Tolan's than it is to Cobalt and aside from the helm the effects pale in comparison to others. While the epic is amazing in exp groups, it's a death wish at raids and if your DA is down. The disciplines in Velious were a little bone. Healing Wave of Prexus is okay but unless you're decked out in NTOV gear you won't get many casts off.

But with a Palladius' Axe of the Slaughter, being a paladin becomes fun.

[Loadsamoney]

Aye, Paladin Sky loot is weak.

The better of the two one-handers is race-restricted (what the fucking fuckity fuck fuck?). I do use the inferior 1-hander (or once in a while the silly Bixie Sword Blade) with an SBS when it's necessary to avoid agro, but that doesn't make it good. (I am half tempted to redo Fiery Avenger just to have a low agro 2H option.) The Wind Etched Armor pieces just barely qualify as upgrades over Valorium and besides that they drop only from poopsock favorite Noble Dojorn. The trash drop Symbol of Marr looks good when you first see it, but you soon realize that its AC/Wis/Str are far less important than HP and/or Resists on raid gear so you never wear it, as opposed to the Cleric's Weight of the Gods or the Druid's Treant Tear & etc.

In the end you have only the haste belt. There's really nothing to compare to the marvelous toys most everybody else gets. It's a nice haste belt, but while 41% haste is exciting on a pure melee it's just kinda neat on a knight who has shit for dps regardless and relies on spell-casting for agro (make it an FT3 belt and it would be exciting :p).

Pally Epic DPS is nothing to laugh at with the 41% haste. Double Attack with a hard hitting 2her like FD + the 155 Stun Proc produces some juicy numbers.

[Daldaen]

40 rogue still outparses it though...

[Loadsamoney]

40 rogue still outparses it though...

Epic'd Rogue outparses everything. Backstab with epic needs nerf.

[kaev]

Pally Epic DPS is nothing to laugh at with the 41% haste. Double Attack with a hard hitting 2her like FD + the 155 Stun Proc produces some juicy numbers.

Compare to similarly geared Rogue or Monk and you'll quickly notice that Paladin is a tank and not ever to be confused with or described as a DPS class. Compare apples to apples (tanks to tanks) and you'll see that equivalently geared Warrior or SK outdamages the Paladin (not by much, but when you tout the damage output of a Paladin you're asking to be shown the light.) Sure, compared to indifferently geared EC twinks an epic'd & planar geared Paladin looks good, just as any other class looks good when they're geared far better than those they're compared to.

The Paladin's a knight tank, enough HP/AC to make Complete Heal powerful and to not be insta-gibbed except by the most outrageous raid bosses (the one bone the EQ devs tossed Warriors) plus excellent agro ability, with a bit of utility on the side. Why are we talking about Paladin DPS, except to laugh and point out that only the Cleric does less?

[Loadsamoney]

Compare to similarly geared Rogue or Monk and you'll quickly notice that Paladin is a tank and not ever to be confused with or described as a DPS class. Compare apples to apples (tanks to tanks) and you'll see that equivalently geared Warrior or SK outdamages the Paladin (not by much, but when you tout the damage output of a Paladin you're asking to be shown the light.) Sure, compared to indifferently geared EC twinks an epic'd & planar geared Paladin looks good, just as any other class looks good when they're geared far better than those they're compared to.

The Paladin's a knight tank, enough HP/AC to make Complete Heal powerful and to not be insta-gibbed except by the most outrageous raid bosses (the one bone the EQ devs tossed Warriors) plus excellent agro ability, with a bit of utility on the side. Why are we talking about Paladin DPS, except to laugh and point out that only the Cleric does less?

At least the Paladin isn't rock bottom.

Also, a lot of people claim that Paladins are horrible at soloing, but I think they can be quite good at it if they just make use of what they have. Root can give you a chance to back off and heal/med before continuing the fight, so a Paladin can do well in 1v1 combat if (s)he is smart about it. And Root can be used to deal with adds.

I was able to solo a Paladin from 30 to 42 in Unrest quite easily back in Luclin, making use of my undead spells, Ghoulbane, and rooting to heal/med when needed.

[Chrysus]

Deepwater/Blood Ember is closer in AC to Tolan's than it is to Cobalt and aside from the helm the effects pale in comparison to others. While the epic is amazing in exp groups, it's a death wish at raids and if your DA is down. The disciplines in Velious were a little bone. Healing Wave of Prexus is okay but unless you're decked out in NTOV gear you won't get many casts off.

But with a Palladius' Axe of the Slaughter, being a paladin becomes fun.

Luclin spell. The 55 group heal Paladins get in Velious is less effecient then a cleric group heal, heals for less and comes with a long recast. Same deal with the HoT paladins get in Velious.

[Loadsamoney]

Luclin spell. The 55 group heal Paladins get in Velious is less effecient then a cleric group heal, heals for less and comes with a long recast. Same deal with the HoT paladins get in Velious.

Paladins Get Superior Heal at 57. At almost 600HP, that's plenty strong enough for them, even enough to make them a capable secondary healer.

[kaev]

At least the Paladin isn't rock bottom.

Also, a lot of people claim that Paladins are horrible at soloing, but I think they can be quite good at it if they just make use of what they have. Root can give you a chance to back off and heal/med before continuing the fight, so a Paladin can do well in 1v1 combat if (s)he is smart about it. And Root can be used to deal with adds.

I was able to solo a Paladin from 30 to 42 in Unrest quite easily back in Luclin, making use of my undead spells, Ghoulbane, and rooting to heal/med when needed.

Paladin can solo kinda-sorka-ok-ish until L45 or so. It gets pretty terribad post-50. Mobs have too many hp and your primary strength is taking hits not dishing them out. Those slow-casting little anti-undead nukes don't count for much against mobs with real hp. Even with DS pots, epic, and a good haste item it sucks. Your Paladin won't get xp much faster soloing than he will if you log to your EC mule and go afk (sadly, that's not a joke.)

You can get duo xp that's far better than solo, but still not as good as a decent 5 or 6 man group, with most anybody except another Paladin or a Cleric. Even a Warrior (use root to manage agro and keep the Warrior berzerk, suck down DS pots like an addict) or an SK (fear-kite to minimize damage taken and thus downtime.)

Befriend Enchanters. A group built around Paladin+Enchanter can do great things in a dungeon.

[Loadsamoney]

Paladin can solo kinda-sorka-ok-ish until L45 or so. It gets pretty terribad post-50. Mobs have too many hp and your primary strength is taking hits not dishing them out. Those slow-casting little anti-undead nukes don't count for much against mobs with real hp. Even with DS pots, epic, and a good haste item it sucks. Your Paladin won't get xp much faster soloing than he will if you log to your EC mule and go afk (sadly, that's not a joke.)

You can get duo xp that's far better than solo, but still not as good as a decent 5 or 6 man group, with most anybody except another Paladin or a Cleric. Even a Warrior (use root to manage agro and keep the Warrior berzerk, suck down DS pots like an addict) or an SK (fear-kite to minimize damage taken and thus downtime.)

Befriend Enchanters. A group built around Paladin+Enchanter can do great things in a dungeon.

Most people don't solo past 50 anyway, some can but they prefer not to because of inefficiency. Mobs get too much HP at that point to make killing them solo efficient unless you're a class with strong dots or have the patience to kite.

Give a Paladin Ghoulbane and send him to Lguk or Unrest at 30 and he can probably solo his way to 49.

[Phased]

Give a Paladin Ghoulbane and send him to Lguk or Unrest at 30 and he can probably solo his way to 49.

Oh stop it. This would be painfully slow. Any class can solo, it doesn't mean they should. Solo and paladin don't really belong in the same sentence unless it involves Deepwater Helm.

Also paladin healing, regardless of what spells they get is bad simply because mana pool is ridiculously low.

[Loadsamoney]

Oh stop it. This would be painfully slow. Any class can solo, it doesn't mean they should. Solo and paladin don't really belong in the same sentence unless it involves Deepwater Helm.

Also paladin healing, regardless of what spells they get is bad simply because mana pool is ridiculously low.

I agree, some classes shouldn't solo. But they still can IF they want to. To me, being able to solo isn't about how fast you can kill stuff, it's whether or not you can survive a 1v1 battle at all. If you can, then you can solo, however wasteful it may be.

And yeah, they do have a crappy mana pool, but in times of need when your healer is either dead or OOM, a Paladin can still pick up the heals temporarily. A Ranger only gets Greater Heal which is pretty useless by the 50s, but a Pallys Superior Heal is strong enough to save lives still. A Pally should generally have full mana as the group tank if (s)he is playing correctly, since FoL is so cheap, and in hairy situations, a Pally with a full mana bar can save lives. I've done it, and I've been praised for doing it.

[Master Roshi]

This thread is so classic

[Alanus]

On live, post-velious, soloing as a paladin was pretty easy 59+. Celestial cleansing and the new defensive skills made it pretty easy. I was soloing in Seb and Velks with pretty mediocre gear at the time (I think i had a Sword of Morning, but not 100% sure) and could even solo Guards/Senior Guards in Kael. Once my guild started raiding, it became even easier (shovel of the harvest and NToV weapons helped a ton).

On this server, it'd be hard to solo 50+. You'd have to do high greens in guk or casters in KC (on live, I could solo spectral curates in KC since I could keep interrupting them after 50% hp when they tried to CH). Baton of Faith + FBSS would be top two best items, and a fungi would help a ton (obviously) if you could afford it. Deepwater helm is good, too. DPS is obviously the biggest concern, so you'd want to go all in on strength and dex (if you have a proc weapon).

[Alanus]

Also, don't discount a paladin's CC ability.

On live, I was often crowd control in sebilis and karnor's groups when we couldn't find an enchanter, since I could pull a mob off a person easily via stuns, then root them away from everyone. I also could keep myself alive while doing so, so the cleric could concentrate on the others.

[Tuljin]

DOES...NOT....COMPUTE........CLASS HAS LOW DAMAGE OUTPUT....OTHER...POSSIBLE.....ABILITIES AND SKILLS......INVALID......MUST PRESS 0 KEY AND WAIT FOR CC AND HEALS......

[Galvatar]

RECOMPUTE........ MUST ROLL IKSAR MONK 18384759375....... AND FACEROLL TO GLORY.

[Clark]

SK

[Raev]

RECOMPUTE........ MUST ROLL IKSAR MONK 18384759375....... AND FACEROLL TO GLORY.

+1

[Asap]

Why do I want to play a paladin now

[fastboy21]

defining difference for me is the FD ability of the sk.

if you take RP (good vs. evil) out of your choice of which to play, FD is the only real game changing ability difference between them in my opinion.

[Master Roshi]

FD and insta click invis makes EQ life so much nicer.

[webrunner5]

The main problem with a Pally is when Velious comes out they are useless DPS wise. They suck now but Velious mobs have tons more HP than Kunark mobs, and hit like freight trains. With a Pally as MT in Velious you will feel like a Wizard, afk half the fight while you go make supper for 10 minutes till he kills it. They make pretty good pullers and spot healers in Velious but MT no way. Not saying a SK will be much better lol. :p

Velious is when you are GOING to need in a group a Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter, Rogue and Monk to be a loot machine. None of this 30 second mob kills when it comes out. :)

[Daldaen]

Warriors are terrible group tanks.

No snap aggro so you have to wait before debuffing stuff. Can't aggro mobs so that they may be root or mezzed CCd unless you attack them...

Knights will be the preferred tank in most any situation group wise.

[Tuljin]

I mean what is it with people running their mouths about classes they've never even played? If you have CH what the hell does it matter who is tanking?

And sure Feign Death is a game-changer, but so is Stun. And Root. And Heal. And Lay on Hands. The difference is, one set of abilities greatly enhances your tanking and contributions to a group, and the other doesn't. Lets all make some spreadsheets and try to figure that one out.

[kaev]

The main problem with a Pally is when Velious comes out they are useless DPS wise. They suck now but Velious mobs have tons more HP than Kunark mobs, and hit like freight trains. With a Pally as MT in Velious you will feel like a Wizard, afk half the fight while you go make supper for 10 minutes till he kills it. They make pretty good pullers and spot healers in Velious but MT no way. Not saying a SK will be much better lol. :p

Velious is when you are GOING to need in a group a Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter, Rogue and Monk to be a loot machine. None of this 30 second mob kills when it comes out. :)

That's a terrible argument. When you compare to just a single Rogue or Monk, the Warrior's edge over knights in damage output doesn't count for much, when you compare that edge to the damage done by a full group it is next to nothing.

Warriors had plenty to bitch about in Velious outside of MTing raid mobs, and I'm sure we'll hear all those bitches reprised here. And, of course, the chorus of Monk hatred from all three tank classes will no doubt swell in a deafening crescendo of poorly typed walls of text.

[fadetree]

It is indeed a bad argument. Nobody wants wars for the damage output. Nobody hates tank knights because of low dps. All tanks have crappy DPS, and if the tanks dps makes a difference then you are doing it wrong. Grind groups, Velious or not, need snap aggro, and they need it more in Velious BECAUSE the mobs hit like freight trains. In a grind group, I'd rather have a knight any day over a War. Velious bosses, well you'll need a war period for most of them, so yeah. Knights are for ramp and offtanking in Velous end game encounters.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Warriors are terrible group tanks.

No snap aggro so you have to wait before debuffing stuff. Can't aggro mobs so that they may be root or mezzed CCd unless you attack them...

Knights will be the preferred tank in most any situation group wise.

What hard group encounters are you doing in velious? Knights were dogshit due to the nature of the content until pop. It's either a single tough mob like vaniki or lodizal or easy mobs which warriors can tank just fine with maybe one click of a root net like ToV trash. Flurry drakes hit hard enough that knights were really not a good option on beta.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

It is indeed a bad argument. Nobody wants wars for the damage output. Nobody hates tank knights because of low dps. All tanks have crappy DPS, and if the tanks dps makes a difference then you are doing it wrong. Grind groups, Velious or not, need snap aggro, and they need it more in Velious BECAUSE the mobs hit like freight trains. In a grind group, I'd rather have a knight any day over a War. Velious bosses, well you'll need a war period for most of them, so yeah. Knights are for ramp and offtanking in Velous end game encounters.

Rampage is based on the order of aggroing the mob, nor threat. Warriors superior until paladins get that lolsy hammer from griegs end. Not one fight in velious has adds during it because the combat scripting engine wasn't really used to great effect until pop. What game is it you are playing?

[Faiding]

Rampage is based on the order of aggroing the mob, nor threat. Warriors superior until paladins get that lolsy hammer from griegs end. Not one fight in velious has adds during it because the combat scripting engine wasn't really used to great effect until pop. What game is it you are playing?

Yeah, definitely not any scripting/adds in Coldain Ring War or Ring of Vulak...

What game are you playing?

[Raev]

That's a terrible argument. When you compare to just a single Rogue or Monk, the Warrior's edge over knights in damage output doesn't count for much, when you compare that edge to the damage done by a full group it is next to nothing.

An epic Paladin will put out about 35 dps. An epic warrior with 41% haste (granted, all this shit is WAY harder to get) and VoG will put out 60. A really elite group will put out 250 dps, so the Warrior is helping his group kill 10% faster. Thats not trivial.


No snap aggro so you have to wait before debuffing stuff. Can't aggro mobs so that they may be root or mezzed CCd unless you attack them...

This is like ordering mac and cheese and you get a steak. BUT THERE IS NO CHEESE SAUCE you say. Well, stop whining about the cheese and eat some fucking steak. When you have a Warrior main tanking, everything changes because the group has to play around the limitations of Warrior threat. The enchanter needs to root or blur mezzed mobs, the shaman either gets to tank a bit or wait on the debuffs, and the monk/rogue need to FD/evade a bit more. This really isn't a big deal. Sure, stuff doesn't get slowed as quickly . . . but who cares? It keeps the cleric from falling asleep between 5k complete heals. And in return for this you get a tank with the best HP/AC in the game, 25 dps (nontrivial as I said earlier), and the potential for evasive/defensive discs when a really tough mob rolls around. I think that's an easy win.

The reason warriors get a bad rep as group tanks is that most of the leveling warriors have some trash gear like a Yak Scimitar. Once those VP weapons come out, warrior aggro is really not bad. Inconsistent, but not bad.

Where paladins (and shadowknights) really shine IMO is tanking raid trash. If I had a ToV east raid, for example, I'd want paladins tanking just about everything, even the wurms. I want a paladin with rock solid aggro so that my shamans can straight up chain Turgur's/Togors, enchanters can tash instantly, and so on and they get slowed within 20 seconds. Then the clerics can go back to facerolling their keyboards.

[buffmagnum]

The easiest way to tell SK are BETTER than paladins is the first expansion. Iksar SK will always be better. I feel bad for those who play pally, never get a group cause everyone would rather have SK/warrior. Girls do well playing paladin...this is the troll section right?

[Arteker]

uhm paladin sky loot isnt as bad if u understand we got armour , the quests are mainly garbage . wind etched armour of ro >valorium .

paladin dont have insta invis or fd or snare fear . we got roots , stuns , and pacify and heals and da .

i dont like this kind of posts because its like playing who has the biggest cock and in general is full of bad information and topics.


Having a 60 paladin and a level 60 sk having solo with both to 60 i found out than paladin kinda solo faster up till 52 , if sk go fear kite he can do it fast in bw and kc grindin .

Tanking both the same but different, paladin agro is kinda superior to sk only if the paladin know whats doing .

paladin epic isnt a dps weapon but a tank weapon, thats why it have a AC and a agro proc. sk epic is a dps weapon with a survival proc.

both chars have different roles in raid , sk is a puller while a paladin if a excellent patch healer in raid.

in general both class are very different .

and always the best duo with paladin was enchanter and for sk cleric.

[webrunner5]

It is indeed a bad argument. Nobody wants wars for the damage output. Nobody hates tank knights because of low dps. All tanks have crappy DPS, and if the tanks dps makes a difference then you are doing it wrong. Grind groups, Velious or not, need snap aggro, and they need it more in Velious BECAUSE the mobs hit like freight trains. In a grind group, I'd rather have a knight any day over a War. Velious bosses, well you'll need a war period for most of them, so yeah. Knights are for ramp and offtanking in Velous end game encounters.

Its not their damage output it is the less damage they take from their super high Damage Mitigation that is the game breaker. You probably don't play a Healer Class. No Mana on Cleric and you could be in deep doo doo. Hell a Bard can probably put out more DPS as a Tank but how long you think it will last getting hit in Velious. There are a lot more aspects to the game than crowd control to not die in Velious.

But yeah I will give you credit for a SK and Pally having a LOT better agro control. Heck a Ranger has even better agro but good luck with them tanking a Raid Boss. :eek: But on my Cleric I want a big fat ugly Ogre Warrior as the Tank. IF things go bad they maybe can run the mobs to the zone line and live. Good luck having that happen on a Half Elf Pally.

[Tuljin]

This is an excerpt of my view of the hybrid phenomenon that I posted in a Ranger thread -



In the broadest sense, there are two types of people who play EQ - those who would consider playing a caster class and those who wouldn't. For those who wouldn't play a caster, hybrid is completely out of the question. Not only are they "weaker" than pure melee classes, you have the spells to worry about as well.

Someone who wants to play a caster class has lots of options. Really all caster classes are played quite heavily, with Wizard and Mage being significantly less played than the rest. If you roll a Shaman, Cleric, or Enchanter you will always get a group. If you roll a Shaman or Enc (or Mage if you're not a nub) you will solo farm the best cash camps in the game.

Why would anybody roll a hybrid?

The reason why, as previously mentioned, a Hybrid will either be awesome or a total nub is because of the caster/melee dilemma. The nub will be either a "melee" player or a "caster" player that doesn't have a full knowledge of either side of the spectrum. The awesome players rolled their hybrid with the specific intent of taking advantage of everything the class offers. Not only does this player understand magic spells, he understands the "EQ 101" of mob placement (tanking) and mob behavior.

Why is SK the most popular hybrid? Its not the "best" hybrid. It is the most similar to a pure melee with the ability to feign death. This is the class that brings the most players from the "melee" side of the spectrum. Not to mention theyre evil, menacing, and "not gay" which also attracts a melee only player. Players from the "caster" side will consider all three and make a choice based on what he thinks would be the best suited to his play style.



Id say this is pretty accurate, and you can see it in this thread.

In the world of P99 with facerolling CH clerics who make you clinch your asshole waiting for a CH and Enchanters who don't even charm pets and AOE mez ugly trains all the way to 60, its nice to be able to split mobs yourself, as well as heal, LOH, etc. I played Warrior a bit and the whole time I just said "gee, I miss my magical powers, I'm sick of depending on other people to keep me alive" so I picked a hybrid with the ability set for my playstyle.

Many people get into hybrids with the wrong idea of what they're for - the DPS argument isn't even worth anyones time. Hybrid DPS sucks, period. No matter what.

[fadetree]

Rampage is based on the order of aggroing the mob, nor threat. Warriors superior until paladins get that lolsy hammer from griegs end. Not one fight in velious has adds during it because the combat scripting engine wasn't really used to great effect until pop. What game is it you are playing?

Yes, this is known. What about it? I didn't say it was because of aggro.

[fadetree]

Its not their damage output it is the less damage they take from their super high Damage Mitigation that is the game breaker. You probably don't play a Healer Class. No Mana on Cleric and you could be in deep doo doo. Hell a Bard can probably put out more DPS as a Tank but how long you think it will last getting hit in Velious. There are a lot more aspects to the game than crowd control to not die in Velious.

But yeah I will give you credit for a SK and Pally having a LOT better agro control. Heck a Ranger has even better agro but good luck with them tanking a Raid Boss. :eek: But on my Cleric I want a big fat ugly Ogre Warrior as the Tank. IF things go bad they maybe can run the mobs to the zone line and live. Good luck having that happen on a Half Elf Pally.

I have played several healers. I like consistent snap aggro over occasional mana spikes anyday in non-endgame mob groups.

[fadetree]

Where paladins (and shadowknights) really shine IMO is tanking raid trash. If I had a ToV east raid, for example, I'd want paladins tanking just about everything, even the wurms. I want a paladin with rock solid aggro so that my shamans can straight up chain Turgur's/Togors, enchanters can tash instantly, and so on and they get slowed within 20 seconds. Then the clerics can go back to facerolling their keyboards.

QFT

[Loadsamoney]

Has anyone actually seen the DPS a Paladin can put out when (s)he is playing the class to its fullest and has the gear? Pally epic with 41% haste belt, the epics proc, the secondary proc you get from Divine Might, and Str/Dex capped to max out slashing DPS and procs, the numbers they can put out (relative to their class) are pretty scary. That and the combination of Bash with the epic and the availability of stuns (and both procs count as stuns, if I remember correctly) makes the Paladin an absolute TERROR against casters, especially undead casters.

[webrunner5]

Has anyone actually seen the DPS a Paladin can put out when (s)he is playing the class to its fullest and has the gear? Pally epic with 41% haste belt, the epics proc, the secondary proc you get from Divine Might, and Str/Dex capped to max out slashing DPS and procs, the numbers they can put out (relative to their class) are pretty scary. That and the combination of Bash with the epic and the availability of stuns (and both procs count as stuns, if I remember correctly) makes the Paladin an absolute TERROR against casters, especially undead casters.

Oh come on. You live in a dream world if you think a Pally has awesome DPS output and any point in their life. I can't think of a worse class on the whole game that has less DPS. No Caster or Melee I can think of. None. :eek: Hell even a Ranger looks like Bruce Lee compared to a Pally. :p SK is not much more but with their pet, and it does add up over a long fight, they do more DPS. Harm Touch alone is more than probably a Pally can do 3/4 of the fight. Granted it has a LONG reset timer but it still is DPS.

Hey I play a Pally and like it, but in CoM we are not talking about a killing machine like a Monk can be. There is times I want to just delete the bastard and put me out of my misery. Pretty bad when the Shaman says "afk for about 5 minutes while I make a sandwich and get a beer", and I say "NP, no hurry, the mob will be here when you get back. Will need another Haste when you get back plz to finish it off". :p

[Loadsamoney]

Oh come on. You live in a dream world if you think a Pally has awesome DPS output and any point in their life. I can't think of a worse class on the whole game that has less DPS. No Caster or Melee I can think of. None. :eek: Hell even a Ranger looks like Bruce Lee compared to a Pally. :p SK is not much more but with their pet, and it does add up over a long fight, they do more DPS. Harm Touch alone is more than probably a Pally can do 3/4 of the fight. Granted it has a LONG reset timer but it still is DPS.

Hey I play a Pally and like it, but in CoM we are not talking about a killing machine like a Monk can be. There is times I want to just delete the bastard and put me out of my misery. Pretty bad when the Shaman says "afk for about 5 minutes while I make a sandwich and get a beer", and I say "NP, no hurry, the mob will be here when you get back. Will need another Haste when you get back plz". :p

I wonder how a pally does in PvP on Red, specifically with blind, root, and all those stuns against a caster.

[webrunner5]

I wonder how a pally does in PvP on Red, specifically with blind, root, and all those stuns against a caster.

They do good at it just like a Cleric does, but, and it is a big but, they cannot kill the other person. So it is useless, and the Problem with the Pally over a Cleric you can't maybe get a Gate off. SO I would not recommend one if you want to Solo. But if you are lucky you can keep healing yourself till you zone. But good luck with that ending well a lot of times. :p But good in groups just like a Cleric.

[Tuljin]

the DPS argument isn't even worth anyones time. Hybrid DPS sucks, period. No matter what.

[Funkutron5000]

High elf paladin is most pro race/ class combo in game.

And Fatty's a big dumb dumb.