Getting started on p99 as a Rogue.

[wmd221]

Just reinstalled after a looong hiatus from the old days of live EQ ( I actually have an active sub but the current iteration of live is hardly the same game ) and I'm just here looking for some advice on basics for leveling and gearing.

Started a Barb Rogue, currently level 3 still using my trusty dagger* but essentially I'm just looking for some guidance on what I should be working toward. Weapon / armor quests that are reasonably doable for a half naked rogue, or should I just be leveling off blues / light blues until I can afford better gear for the time being? I imagine there are weapons that are substantial upgrades that get sold for very reasonable prices due to how common they are but I haven't even been to EC yet since that's quite a run and I don't actually have the money to do that yet.

Name is Deepbreaths if anybody wants to message me ingame, even if its just to say hello. The social experience that is EQ is what I really miss so I'm happy to meet any new people :)

[Estu]

Don't worry about getting gear from quests. Whatever cheap weapon you can find in EC is going to vastly outclass anything you can get from a quest at your level. You can farm up one or two hundred plat relatively easily as described here (http://wiki.project1999.com/Players:Newbie#Platinum). Beg a port to EC when you feel like getting a weapon (/who all druid 39 60, /who all wizard 39 60, send people tells and ask politely, explaining that you're new to the server, people will be happy to port you for free), see what people are selling, and find something cheap but useful.

Basically, what you're looking for in a primary weapon is this:
1) Piercing weapon (so you can backstab)
2) High damage (so your backstabs do a lot of damage)
3) Low delay (so you get more benefit from damage bonus, although at low levels this won't be as important)
4) Magic weapon (most weapons you'll find in EC are magic, but just make sure; you won't be able to hit a lot of stuff, like ghouls, without magic weapons)
What you're looking for in a secondary weapon is just anything you can put in your secondary slot with a good damage/delay ratio. They don't have to be piercing and it doesn't matter if the damage is high or the delay is low as long as the ratio is good. The secondary weapon isn't as important as the primary.

For armor, you can try and find a blacksmith to make you a suit of banded - a full suit costs about 85pp and is some nice AC (but no other stats). But I'd just focus on weapons; your armor isn't as important. Generally speaking, your mission armor-wise, once you have good weapons, will be to get your STR stat up high.

In terms of leveling, you'll wanna start grouping pretty soon. Rogues are very poor soloers unless they're very well geared. Crushbone, EC orcs, and Blackburrow are all popular spots starting at level 5 or so.

[wmd221]

Yeah to be completely honest I'm level 4 and already starting to feel like its a bit of a struggle haha, but thank you much for the advice, I may just try to find a port now so I can follow the plat farming methods. The spiders in everfrost don't drop silk and the skeletons aren't very common. That and I'm a bit tired of the vengeful mobs aggroing from quite far away forcing me to run all the way back to guards on a semi-regular basis.

Thanks again!

[capco]

Jagged Chokidai Spine is a great rogue starter weapon if this is your first character. Cheap but still effective early on.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Jagged_Chokidai_Spine

[username17]

I would recommend heading to EC ASAP. You can get buffs at the tunnel which will help with leveling. Sometimes, although not too often, people do give away items. You might be able to snatch up a decent weapon or some armor to start with.

[ghost182]

Have to agree, your goal is to get to EC. you're not going to be able to afford any weapons, but you can get free buffs. that will help you to solo until you can group.

[wmd221]

Yup I'm currently level 9, made my way to NK from Qeynos hills at 5 and spent the money I had on a port and I met some really cool people in EC, doing well now!

[username17]

Make sure to get a bind in West Freeport! Type /char to see your bind point.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Don't know if you've figured it out but strafe running is a little faster than most mob speed.

If you get in trouble and gotta run, make sure to strafe.

[wmd221]

Thats a great tip, its definitely something I use while sneak hiding at low levels and while ducking.

[AnthonyHJ]

As a lvl 9 rogue, I have been thinking similar things.

One thing I noticed though; daggers of a certain level always seem to have a bad DPS compared to swords of the same type. Fine steel daggers are 3/19 (so just under 1/6) compared to 6/28 (just over 1/5) for a fine steel long sword. Even a standard rapier is 5/25 for a good 1/5 ratio and that's at least one 'class' lower than fine steel.

What is the advantage of the dagger given this disparity? I understand once you get weapons with stat bonuses, since daggers tend to have rogue-friendly stats, but is there something I am missing here which makes up for the lower DPS of a dagger?

[Breeziyo]

As a lvl 9 rogue, I have been thinking similar things.

One thing I noticed though; daggers of a certain level always seem to have a bad DPS compared to swords of the same type. Fine steel daggers are 3/19 (so just under 1/6) compared to 6/28 (just over 1/5) for a fine steel long sword. Even a standard rapier is 5/25 for a good 1/5 ratio and that's at least one 'class' lower than fine steel.

What is the advantage of the dagger given this disparity? I understand once you get weapons with stat bonuses, since daggers tend to have rogue-friendly stats, but is there something I am missing here which makes up for the lower DPS of a dagger?

Backstab is only usable with a piercing weapon in your main hand. You get it at level 10. Will give you much more damage assuming you're behind your target.

[AnthonyHJ]

Backstab is only usable with a piercing weapon in your main hand. You get it at level 10. Will give you much more damage assuming you're behind your target.
Fair enough; I'm level 10 now and back-stabbing, but I notice that a fine steel rapier gives a better ratio than a fine steel dagger and a higher damage overall, which must be better for backstab. So why would I choose a dagger over a rapier? In fact, some of the spears give 6 damage, for a better DPS and a better backstab.

I am sure that I am missing something here...

[Breeziyo]

Fair enough; I'm level 10 now and back-stabbing, but I notice that a fine steel rapier gives a better ratio than a fine steel dagger and a higher damage overall, which must be better for backstab. So why would I choose a dagger over a rapier? In fact, some of the spears give 6 damage, for a better DPS and a better backstab.

I am sure that I am missing something here...

in this case i guess the rapier is just all around better.

this:

Basically, what you're looking for in a primary weapon is this:
1) Piercing weapon (so you can backstab)
2) High damage (so your backstabs do a lot of damage)
3) Low delay (so you get more benefit from damage bonus, although at low levels this won't be as important)
4) Magic weapon (most weapons you'll find in EC are magic, but just make sure; you won't be able to hit a lot of stuff, like ghouls, without magic weapons)
What you're looking for in a secondary weapon is just anything you can put in your secondary slot with a good damage/delay ratio. They don't have to be piercing and it doesn't matter if the damage is high or the delay is low as long as the ratio is good. The secondary weapon isn't as important as the primary.


is all you need to worry about. if a ratio is somewhat the same but one has higher damage i'd use the higher damage piercing weapon in my main hand.

[sox7d]

/who all chardok wizard


/tell <wizard> hey, i just joined the server, if you're not doing anything could you port to gfay real quick between pulls and unload a jagged chokidai spine if any are rotting? (sidenote: they are.) i just got rejected from a group for using a dagger* :(


???


profit

[Lucia Moonglow]

Fair enough; I'm level 10 now and back-stabbing, but I notice that a fine steel rapier gives a better ratio than a fine steel dagger and a higher damage overall, which must be better for backstab. So why would I choose a dagger over a rapier? In fact, some of the spears give 6 damage, for a better DPS and a better backstab.

I am sure that I am missing something here...

Early on, especially when backstab skill is low, it's possible that you'll have better DPS using a 1HB/1HS than a piercer, especially if you find a good one early on. Also, it's the damage on the piercer that's important, not its damage/delay. If you're really crazy, you can have a piercer on your cursor, and then swap it into the slot each time backstab comes up, then swap back immediately after.

Also, remember that even if you're not behind an enemy, backstab gives you an extra attack and only works with a piercing weapon, so that extra attack every 8 seconds could make up for a slightly lower DPS.

By the mid levels, backstab does so much more damage than normal attacks that it's always preferable to keep a piercer in the main hand, even if the DPS is slightly lower (unless you prefer the previously-mentioned juggling act).

[Cecily]

Early on, especially when backstab skill is low, it's possible that you'll have better DPS using a 1HB/1HS than a piercer, especially if you find a good one early on. Also, it's the damage on the piercer that's important, not its damage/delay. If you're really crazy, you can have a piercer on your cursor, and then swap it into the slot each time backstab comes up, then swap back immediately after.

Disregard everything said here please. 1hb / 1hs are acceptable for main hand levels 1 to 9, but are still a bad idea because you need to train your piercing skill anyway. Seriously, use a piercing weapon main hand throughout your rogue career. Ratio and damage are the big factors in picking a backstabbing weapon. High damage, slow weapons are no fun to use. Low damage, fast weapons are usually bad also. Finally, weapon swapping for backstabs will lower your dps and take focus off your positioning, which is the most important part of the class. Learn how push works!

This is my recommended main hand upgrade progression, from worst and cheapest to best and most expensive. There is worse weapons than my worst, but they all suck. SBD is a sentimental weapon for me, might not be cheapest. Snare proc is something you want in your bag though. Getting a spine should be your first priority. Should only cost 100p if you have to buy it.

Serrated Bone Dirk - 8/27
Jagged Chodakai Spine - 9/25
Slime Coated Harpoon - 10/25
Bone Razor - 10/22
Trak Tooth - 10/20
Rapier of Oriin - 12/25
Seb Dirk - 10/18
Ragebringer - 15/25

*Note that I don't recommend getting a trak tooth (can't offhand) or rapier (expensive and hard to sell), stopping at bone razor until you can quest Ragebringer is sufficient imo.

Offhand weapon progression. Only ratio (dam/del) matters here. Higher ratio is better.

Anything lol
Jade Mace (CSS ratio, no stats)
CSS (best bang for buck)
Seb Dirk (favorite)
Edge of the Nightwalker (over priced)

[Cecily]

My best tip for new rogues:

Don't spend your training points leveling 1-10 on anything besides 1 point skill unlocks. When you hit 10, spend your glorious pile of pixels on capping your backstab skill or getting it however high you can afford. Will save you literal hours of backstabbing practice in the field and let you appreciate the huge dps boost. And once the skill caps, it'll always stay capped through grouping with no additional effort.

[AnthonyHJ]

I had heard that getting Pick Locks up to 11 was basically a requirement or else you can't use it. Not that I have used it yet, but it seems like it should be one of the defining rogue skills, so not getting it to a useful level sounds like I'd be doing myself a disservice.

As to backstab; I actually levelled it up in the field, but I'd been saving all of my skill points (other than the ones I spent getting Pick Locks to 11) and really wish I had been given that advice earlier. The difference between seeing 10 dmg (at 10 Sneak Attack; starting value) and 40 dmg (or higher) really made me wish I'd used training points...

Speaking of Pick Locks, is it worth going to Befallen to get my skill up or do most groups running dungeons with locked doors prefer to have keys in case they need to bail out in a hurry?

[Jimjam]

Don't bother training pick locks at low level.

When you train a skill it starts at the number of points equal to your level.

Unless you plan on going into befallen at low level you simply won't need pick lock for a long time.

My recommendation would be to wait until you are like level 50 and train it then. That way you will start at 50 skill instead of 11 and you won't have to spend as many skill points on it and there will be more locks that you will be able to practice on. As a barbarian pick lock will be useful for getting in to The Hole and is advantageous for a couple of higher level dungeons too.

[Cecily]

I had heard that getting Pick Locks up to 11 was basically a requirement or else you can't use it. Not that I have used it yet, but it seems like it should be one of the defining rogue skills, so not getting it to a useful level sounds like I'd be doing myself a disservice.

As to backstab; I actually levelled it up in the field, but I'd been saving all of my skill points (other than the ones I spent getting Pick Locks to 11) and really wish I had been given that advice earlier. The difference between seeing 10 dmg (at 10 Sneak Attack; starting value) and 40 dmg (or higher) really made me wish I'd used training points...

Speaking of Pick Locks, is it worth going to Befallen to get my skill up or do most groups running dungeons with locked doors prefer to have keys in case they need to bail out in a hurry?

Lock picking is worthwhile to train early on. Playing a rogue involves quite a bit of time devoted to leveling the ton of skills you have outside of the typical leveling grind. You're going to eventually find yourself in WC or elsewhere with nothing to do. That's the perfect time to develop skill sets you will need to have later on. Might as well head over to Befallen every 10 levels or so and cap your skill for your level. You'll thank yourself later when you're clicking a door back and forth for only 30, 40, 50 points rather than 200 at 40 or 210 at 60. Divide it up over time is my recommendation.

Try to figure out smart ways to train skills (multiple if you can) in the easiest way possible, while doing other stuff. Makes it less of a grind. Here's a bunch of unsolicited advice on what worked best for me. Hope some of it is useful.

Pickpocket / Evade Macro

You'll want your pickpocket skill at 200 by level 40 for the best odds of not getting killed in the initial steps of your epic. I strongly suggest you get your notes around 40 so the deaths you may eat sting less. So how do we get ready for this? Setup an evade macro that includes pickpocket.

In your actions window (ctrl-A) on the 4th tab use the arrows to change pages and right click on a blank button.

Label it Evade

Line 1: /at off
Line 2: /do 3
Line 3: /do 1
Line 4: /at on

Where /do 3 refers to pickpocket and /do 1 refers to hide.

The numbers are where on your second tab you placed your noncombat skills. Combat skills on the next tab follow the same pattern starting with 7.

1 2
3 4
5 6

What that macro will do is turn off your attack, steal from the mob, trigger evade which is how hide functions in combat as an aggro reduction ability, and resumes attacking. Place this macro on your main bar and use it whenever you see your hide skill pop. Please inform your group that you'll be training pickpocket and make sure they are ok with that. Certain types of mobs will call you out on fails and some people are overly attached to the 3 silver that orc pawn was planning on giving them. In this case, simply delete the line that refers to pickpocket and the macro will still work for evading.

Later on people WILL care if you pickpocket, so get it capped by 40 and stop using it or risk your reputation.

Hide and Sneak

Mash these buttons together whenever you have downtime. Try to keep these capped for your level and you will save yourself a tremendous headache trying to move invisibly. Also higher hide means more evade successes.

Bind Wound and Safe Fall

The jumping off high places and hurting yourself one is kinda fun. The wrapping yourself in bandages one is less fun but valuable later on. Work on them together. My favorite spot for this was the lifts at Kelethin. Jump off, bind up to 50%, jump off again. Please make sure you have enough HP to actually do this lol. Safer safe fall training can be found along the walls of the Deserts of Ro and off the top of the EC tunnel. Safe fall caps early at a weird number. Bind Wound takes some dedication, but you'll be able to bind up to 70% in your late 50s with high skill.

Disarm

Like pickpocket, you can put this in a macro. The problem is that the skill has to be used very close to the mob. Rogues should be fighting from max melee distance in most circumstances to minimize push and to not get root proximity aggro. The skill frankly sucks to train. Level it up on green mobs with visible weapons or in groups. Not a bad skill to power through with practice point later on, as it will get very expensive at higher levels.

Intimidation

Your unreliable fear ability. Good skill to have maxed if you can find a use for it. Allows extremely well geared rogues to solo a bit before the 50s. I believe this will train off of green mobs. The best way is to get yourself into a fear kiting group in areas like OT or FM giant fort where they actually would like the mob feared. I pressed the button on an impulse in the middle of Droga dungeon. That didn't go well for us haha.

Sense Traps / Disarm Traps

Sense traps will train anywhere. It's like hide and sneak training, just slower and more pointless. Disarm traps should be very easy to train now as of the latest patch. Click the swinging pendulum trap in Sol A repeatedly. Should go quick, but I haven't had a chance to test it yet. These skills will get some use in Velious so train them if you have time for it.

Make Poison / Apply Poison

Like other tradeskills, drop 20 points into this to skip tedious early skill ups. Honestly though, don't bother with poisons until you're 60, rich, and bored. At that point don't bother farming reagents, just follow this 100% vendor bought progression:

Gindlin Toxfodder in WK: Spine Break (32), Athropic Sap (98), Aching Blood (108)
Ennixy Frennor in Steamfont: Calcium Rot (172)
Brak Daggermist in FV: Spirit of Sloth (250)

Get your apply skill up by clicking cheap poisons over an over. Success rate gets pretty good around 100. Think that's where I stopped and I blew some practice points on it because it was annoying.

Lockpicking

Drop training points into this skill to get it to 11, or simply wait to train it initially at 11. Then buy some lock picks and click them on the first befallen door. Locks don't go trivial, so you can go from 11 to 210 on the first befallen if you cared to. Different locks do, however, have a minimum skill levels. That's why you needed the extra points for the easiest door in the game at Befallen.

[AnthonyHJ]

Regarding the Safe Fall skill, isn't it set so that a fall which would hurt you levels the skill regardless of whether your skill is high enough to negate all damage? If so, Kelethin has a bridge leading away from the rogue's guild which might be perfect; it consistently does 1-3 damage when you jump off it onto a handy platform below, for a nice safe training environment and a fairly short run back to the bridge. I often jump down from this bridge as a short-cut to the lifts.

[Cecily]

I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Try that spot out and see how it works. The desert walls were great too. Usually very small falls, but a bunch of them as you go down the wall. I just mentioned the lifts because they consistently deal a nice bit of damage to you for bind wound practice. Self inflicted wounds are tough to come by.

[Daldaen]

I also would put sense heading or sense traps in your Evade hotkey. Let's you skill up those semi-important skills as you play without paying attention to it.

Otherwise Cecily has a solid post.

But if you want to pickpocket, just put on /role and tell your group you're roleplaying a rogue if they ask about the lack of gems. Wish more people would use /role for its proper purpose. Not hiding their class/zone.

[AnthonyHJ]

Isn't the disadvantage of sense traps on your evade that you suddenly get turned to face the trap? That could be an issue in combat, I would think...

[Cecily]

That's rogue ethics, Dald. Stealing anything without grave risk of bodily harm is cheating. I didn't steal from my NG groups in Seb back when they were still pickpocket flagged. I did go and rob them blind, solo, when the various beetles were uncamped. It's more fun and you're not, directly at least, screwing anyone over. Pick pocketing real valuables from your group or others is pretty repugnant imo.

I funded my rogue main on live with money I stole from unengaged hill giants. Yeah I made soo many druids whine in ooc about stingy giants, but stealing from their mobs was a line I wouldn't cross even though it would have been easier.

[Cecily]

Isn't the disadvantage of sense traps on your evade that you suddenly get turned to face the trap? That could be an issue in combat, I would think...

If you were around a trap, yeah. Pretty rare though and you can take it out of the macro easily. Was just a button mash thing for me. For sense heading, what I like to do is bind the sense heading button to the left or right directional key so it fires off every time you turn. Will get you to 200 skill within a day's playtime and you just unbind it then.

Alt+O.. hotkeys I think. Add sense heading's key to the second slot for the directional key.