Stop the Socking

[Breaken]

Don't you think it's more important to worry about fixing some underlying 'problem' that is causing socking

Yes. Which is why we asked for FFA on simulated respawns. Changing Mages to Rangers will not fix this underlying problem you speak of.

[Jaxon]

Socking exists because it's the winning strategy. Only two things have been proven to eliminate socking:

Class R Rotations and Simulated Repops.

Don't want people to sock? Have them work out who gets the dragon ahead of time or give them more targets than they can possibly handle.

[Clark]

This isn't EZp99 stop trying to give everyone and their grandpa free merbs.

Never seen a more ridiculous, tldr, spewing of what people think rules are about in my life. The answer is to do what they did on live, and stop lopping on 200 rules. Feel bad for new players having shit ruined by old players who complain because they don't know how to improve w/o free handouts.

[Daldaen]

Don't you think it's more important to worry about fixing some underlying 'problem' that is causing socking rather than worrying about whether or not people are playing Everquest on a calculator or Falcon-nw.com.

I'd rather someone having a SSD or being Rogean's roommate as the 'X' factor in raiding that auto-fire/poopsocking/1000 alts, etc...

Underlying problem is lack of content, and I'm not sure how much more betaing will help fix that.

Other problem is people not wanting to do a complete share (rotation), so we have competition which is what we are trying to compromise on.

If we get variance reduces greatly, people will only have to track for a 30-60 min window. To combat socking you implement a set of rules that say you can only have X in zone and only these 2 May go for FTE.

What you're suggesting just means 1 person is forced to sit at character select screen and way for a batphone. Or far more likely, play, then /quit and swap to their char select screen of an IP exempt account. Just another flavor of tracking. It just favors those who want to sit at char select or those with an Ip exempt and those with the fastest SSD.

Orrrr put everyone on the same footing, foot race from a given start point. Remove all the inconsistencies listed above.

Again, cucumber and I are confused. Elaborate on what you mean about short variance and long windows. Cause if you're against reducing variance the whole thing is moot and we are no better off than we would be staying with CotH ducking. Which I pray isn't the case. I can't fathom anyone prefers 16 hour variance to 1 hour variance.

[Man0warr]

This isn't EZp99 stop trying to give everyone and their grandpa free merbs.

Never seen a more ridiculous, tldr, spewing of what people think rules are about in my life. The answer is to do what they did on live, and stop lopping on 200 rules. Feel bad for new players having shit ruined by old players who complain because they don't know how to improve w/o free handouts.

The lack of rules only worked on Live because there was at most 3-4 guilds able to kill the content in the entirety of Kunark+Velious.

This server has 10-12 guilds capable of clearing Kunark, and that's all we have for content. Verant mitigated the issues that have popped up here by continually releasing new content every 9-12 months, allowing those top guilds to move on and let the older content be consumed by the guilds who were more casual.

[Clark]

So then compete. Make steps toward competing. Stop expecting things to be handed out or instanced. This isnt WoW, this isn't new MMO's. Everyone has an excuse for everything these days; it's embarrassing.

[Scoresby]

So here's an idea that isn't classic but gives a raid environment that might feel more classic. When a raid target spawns, you get ported to a random druid ring / wiz spire and have to assemble from there. Warriors have a 50% chance to end up in OOT. That last part is a joke...kinda.

PROS
- Creates a race with true mobilization being the winning factor.
- Eliminates the poop sock.

CONS
- Takes some coding.
- "Not classic bro"

The last point I'd argue against since, in most cases, our current raid environment doesn't resemble anything classic (oddly I do remember some bullshit douche-baggery in NToV, but nothing before that so Velious probably won't fix anything).

It's no secret that the server population knows when a raid target spawns. People are obviously willing to fill up their socks till the poop runneth over to track these. So why not cut the shit and just put everyone on the same ground competition wise. If a mob spawns in off-hours, your bigger/more hardcore guilds are still going to have the best shot at it (which is the way it worked in classic).

I just don't see any other options to solve the current problem with the number of raid capable characters on this server. It's not a classic situation and there will not be a classic solution.

[Man0warr]

So then compete. Make steps toward competing. Stop expecting things to be handed out or instanced. This isnt WoW, this isn't new MMO's. Everyone has an excuse for everything these days; it's embarrassing.

There literally aren't enough mobs to compete over - there are so few targets that it takes very little effort to monopolize them all - less than 50 people with 2-3 level 60 characters has been shown to be all it requires. That's why the raid scene changed because Rogean was tired of the monopolizing that went on for years.

[Clark]

At this point Scoresby GM's should just full wipe both servers and restart them; because the majority of population (aside from anyone who has joined in the last few months) is being RETARDED.

Acting more entitled than any MMO server community I've ever been a part of.

The amount of people being crybabies about wanting free dragon items isn't even measurable. I'd rather read about someone's Crushbone camp being KS'd.

[Fanguru]

Foot races will turn stupid pretty fast too. Imagine VS: 10 to 20 racers all piled on the corner of the wall with auto-run on, waiting for the tracker call to face left slightly and rush to the room. Also the first person at the sweet spot gets an edge, because others cannot stand at the exact same spot. No thanks.

Using rangers only as racers outdoors because they have the longest range? No thanks.

How do you deal with Trakanon to give everyone a fair shot at him?

It's all poopsocking anyway, treat the disease instead of the symptom: C/R, FFA on repop.

"Oh noes, unacceptable, class C shouldn't get less mobs" There are more R guilds and less C guilds than before. Ratios need to be adjusted anyway.

[Erati]

Can we add Tranix to the mob list and make him R/C/FFA?

I want my rotation Crown since I cant get a the real Crown from PD :(

also Fanguru I agree that some zones/encounters work better for races than others

VS/Inny/Naggy/Vox/Trak are just some examples where racing requires trainers and herp-derping around dungeons that contain other players usually

Sev/Fay/Tal/Gore make the only logical sense for a race to take place and actually sound somewhat fun, but therein lies the problem with racing....so many variables !

However, the barrier of entry for racing is ridiculously small, which I understand as the biggest reason for people to push for it which I can accept and get behind their way of thinking

[Ella`Ella]

Anywho - I still don't get what you mean by lower variance and increased windows, can you explain this to me like I'm an ogre?

Sorry about that. I typed it in a rush on my way to a meeting. I meant them pretty interchangeably. It would read better as "Shorter windows or Longer Windows" either/or really.

Longer windows is the least favorable because of socking, but it does space mobs much more quickly than shorter windows. This way they aren't always clustered together and always spawning Fri-Sun (currently).

The cons of that is it burns out trackers/socking.

Shorter windows would likely keep mobs spawning together for longer, but reduces the amount of time people would spend socking (if any time was spent socking). This would be coupled with something like doing the ole fashioned foot race or some shit. Let's get realistic here, nothing in EQ is 100% skill, there is a lot of luck involved on all sides, so it's never going to be a perfect science.

[Daldaen]

So then compete. Make steps toward competing. Stop expecting things to be handed out or instanced. This isnt WoW, this isn't new MMO's. Everyone has an excuse for everything these days; it's embarrassing.
Not everyone is home online all day every day Clark.

Gotta find something that can allow both the hardcore and the casual to play together if you're keen on keeping the FFA cycle.

You can keep your "try harder" mentality in VP since that's Class C until Velious.

[Juryiel]

At this point Scoresby GM's should just full wipe both servers and restart them; because the majority of population (aside from anyone who has joined in the last few months) is being RETARDED.

Acting more entitled than any MMO server community I've ever been a part of.

The amount of people being crybabies about wanting free dragon items isn't even measurable. I'd rather read about someone's Crushbone camp being KS'd.

Step 1: Try not thinking negative thoughts about people on the other side of yours
Step 2: Try to look for valid reasons as to why they might think and say the things they think and say regarding mob distribution and raid rules rather than carelessly taking the easy way out by attributing those things to invalid reasons.
Step 3: Profit as everyone comes together in united love and harmony.

[Buhbuh]

Red99 doesn't have variance

Winner take all

All pixels, no drama

Just Do It

Nike

I'll be back

You're out of time

Stick around

Save fifteen percent on car insurance

The everything store

Where good food meets blow jobs

Red99

Come hither, my darlings

[Doil_Boil]

So then compete. Make steps toward competing. Stop expecting things to be handed out or instanced. This isnt WoW, this isn't new MMO's. Everyone has an excuse for everything these days; it's embarrassing.

The word "compete" and the idea that this game should be the entire focus of your life shouldn't be mutually inclusive.

I think that's what people are going for here.

[derpcake]

I remember when I sat on seafury island with 14 other people.

Glad I moved to red.

Is there some kind of compendium on the rotation rules? Not that I'll ever consider going back to "5x more players then content can support", but it would be nice to be able to make some sense of this rotation which seems to be the topic of endless debate without much progress.

Is forumquesting & ruleslawyering really that much more fun then actually doing stuff ingame through your own means?

So much more that you play on a server that rotates seafury spawns?

Pretty lulzy :)

[Doil_Boil]

I remember when I sat on seafury island with 14 other people.

Glad I moved to red.

Is there some kind of compendium on the rotation rules? Not that I'll ever consider going back to "5x more players then content can support", but it would be nice to be able to make some sense of this rotation which seems to be the topic of endless debate without much progress.

Is forumquesting & ruleslawyering really that much more fun then actually doing stuff ingame through your own means?

So much more that you play on a server that rotates seafury spawns?

Pretty lulzy :)

If red is so great how it is atm, why does every red player try to get more people to migrate?

I played a char for a bit on red and it was empty, bugged, and nothing like a classic experience..

[derpcake]

The word "compete" and the idea that this game should be the entire focus of your life shouldn't be mutually inclusive.

I think that's what people are going for here.

I love people that believe to have the monopoly on deciding what is "too much" playtime.

So how is that guy that has been camping tranix for days (weeks) on end doing?

Move to red, I can assure you no such circus is found there. Other kind of clowns are there, but they are entertaining and not able to monopolize aspects of the game.

[derpcake]

I played a char for a bit on red and it was empty, bugged, and nothing like a classic experience..

Can you elaborate on how red is "bugged" and "not a classic experience"? Its the same as blue bugwise and its as much a classic experience afaik. Sure there is a group xp bonus, do you consider that an issue? If its not that I don't understand your remark here..

The amount of people depends on the time of the day, of course.

As a euro player I don't mind, I can come home after work and farm 2-3 hours with few people online (free camps in guk, sol B, sebilis, chardok, droga, ..), and after that there are 120+ online and its time to contest some stuff. (ingame kekeke)

[Daldaen]

Blue players are shitty because of greed.

Red players are shitty because of spite.

One is self interest. One is the desire to make others have a bad time.

That's why red is toxic. Blue is drama, lol PvP is far more drama. And people over there have no qualms about using racial/homophobic slurs in global OOC. It's just another breed of terrible people on red.

[wwoneo]

I don't know if this has been suggested, but what about:

1.
Have every single raid mob spawn at an exact time for every spawn (I.E. all mobs spawn at 4pm PST and every 49 hours <so that the time all the mobs pop constantly change> after that etc…).

2.
Guilds can only go after 1 raid boss at a time.

3.
All guilds must be outside of the raid mob’s zone when the timer pops.


Basically, it would replace current spawn mechanics with scheduled earthquakes. Keep in mind this is a very rudimentary guideline, but it would allow for competition to continue within P99 and it would stop poopsocking and endless hours of CoTH ducking.

Anyone have any opinions/suggesting to add?

edit: I don't particularly care because I don't raid anymore. I'm just trying to be helpful and find a solution that everyone can tolerate.

[khanable]

red players are like that kid that tried to convince you his neogeo pocket is better than your gameboy

[Buhbuh]

Honestly the biggest hurdle with the PvP server is the preconceived notion that it's all grief, all the time, and that EQ wasn't meant for PvP. The interesting thing is that, almost by accident, it was fun.

It's really just more about getting one large symbolic move over to Red to convince people that it's overall a nice viable server. It's not that dead. People always make alts. But the low population is precisely the reason we tell people to migrate. Make the zones more populated. There's a massive amount of the server under utilized on a daily basis.

You'll learn how to PvP with time. It can be frustrating, yes, but it's infinitely more practical when it comes to solving issues like variance socking (just kill people), and it's ultimately a more interesting aspect of EQ.

We're trying to build a server around more civil PvP (one side wins, fuck it, Rez their cleric in to CR their guild out). It's not all the vitriol and bullshit the forums might have you think.

It's just a simple end to problems like these that you guys seem to have. A thread 500 replies long suggests to me you want a change anyway. So why not Red? Is a better question. We have other problems, surely, but not these ones. You're the better players? Prove it. Earn your keep. Pretty simple.

[arsenalpow]

My girlfriend was on red last night and some ultra geared holo twink waltzed into CoM, obliterated two entire groups, broke them up for the night and then she was getting hunted into EJ after she managed to loot her shit up.

You want to pvp, that's fine, but swooping in with ridiculously geared twinks and shooting fish in a barrel is shit I used to do back on SZ which was a goddamn penal colony. You want red to work? Stop eating your own and try to not say faggot repeatedly in global ooc.

[Buhbuh]

Blue players are shitty because of greed.

Red players are shitty because of spite.

One is self interest. One is the desire to make others have a bad time.

That's why red is toxic. Blue is drama, lol PvP is far more drama. And people over there have no qualms about using racial/homophobic slurs in global OOC. It's just another breed of terrible people on red.

That's exactly why no one comes to Red. This misconception stops people from even trying. The forums are a troll fest, I agree, but the server itself is far different. We can't really control lower level griefers' actions, and there's definitely a small contingent of players who want to see people quit ( old Sullon Zek retards trying to fuck everything up), but the majority are more interested in good, clean fights that are big and fun. Sirken just ban hammered two monks trying to train a mass PvP fight to sway the battle their way.

It's not a Sullon Zek atmosphere really, though. It's changing a lot.

[Troubled]

Obviously 11 out of 12 people don't give a fuck about red. Might as well spam in your own forum.

[Ella`Ella]

My girlfriend was on red last night and some ultra geared holo twink waltzed into CoM, obliterated two entire groups, broke them up for the night and then she was getting hunted into EJ after she managed to loot her shit up.


Does she still play?

Edit: Want to Buy: T-staff, Fungi Tunic, RBB, Seb Cloak, Monk Epic MQ, Tranix Crown on red - PST.

[Buhbuh]

My girlfriend was on red last night and some ultra geared holo twink waltzed into CoM, obliterated two entire groups, broke them up for the night and then she was getting hunted into EJ after she managed to loot her shit up.

You want to pvp, that's fine, but swooping in with ridiculously geared twinks and shooting fish in a barrel is shit I used to do back on SZ which was a goddamn penal colony. You want red to work? Stop eating your own and try to not say faggot repeatedly in global ooc.

Yeah, that happens in 3 zones on the server. MM, Unrest, CoM. That's where twinks lay in wait. It's difficult to stop them from doing that. They think of it like a rite of passage or something. Chardok, for instance, is empty a good majority of the day though. So is BW. Even Seb is sometimes.

Just need some tenacity, figure out where people are and aren't.

[Nirgon]

Got prof? We know you train your own raids and lie about it Chest

Take a minute and think about 3k pop blue Velious launch and if that's what you want, go ahead :)

Seeing the word faggot doesn't keep Chest out of RNF either, or most of you

[Daldaen]

K let's stop derailing my thread about red.

Let's get an agreement and have GMs weigh in on how we can get them to reduce variance to make these changes worthwhile.

[Nirgon]

Shorter variance means more players mashing hotkey at spawn that's about it

[arsenalpow]

Yeah, that happens in 3 zones on the server. MM, Unrest, CoM. That's where twinks lay in wait. It's difficult to stop them from doing that. They think of it like a rite of passage or something. Chardok, for instance, is empty a good majority of the day though. So is BW. Even Seb is sometimes.

Just need some tenacity, figure out where people are and aren't.

I don't really want to sidetrack into a red discussion any further but with such a low population you gotta play where the groups are unless you're gonna solo to 60 which is only an option with a few classes. So either you have a set crew that can group in hidden places away from pvp or you're a loner you end up having to PUG it up in the few populated areas like CoM which is terrorized by ultra geared twinks.

You can't say "don't be a pussy play red" and then tell people to shrug off the multiple non-redeeming characteristics of the server.

[Nirgon]

What char is your gf? I'll look it up on the leader board

Is it Hyperdyke? Same guy complaining about the word faggot?

[arsenalpow]

What char is your gf? I'll look it up on the leader board

Is it Hyperdyke? Same guy complaining about the word faggot?

I don't think she's ever YTed anyone.

[Nirgon]

Works both ways if you get killed its on there too

Unless you LYIN

[harnold]

She was on the other day with the character "fartymctoots"

[Nirgon]

Don't wanna side track this red discussion with naming violations

You makin' lies CHEST!?

If you are this is another fine thread to put on the trophy wall of don't pvp on red, come cry with BDA

Please prove me wrong, I want to believe


Holocaust will get you your epic, join us (hell just ask any of our members)

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

You want to pvp, that's fine, but swooping in with ridiculously geared twinks and shooting fish in a barrel is shit I used to do back on SZ which was a goddamn penal colony.


"...a goddam penal colony..."

But is it like the Tantalus colony, or Rura Penthe?

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55829376.jpg

[arsenalpow]

Cucs or Trouble can confirm her existence with characters on blue and red, but no I'm not giving out her name on red lol.

[Nirgon]

I can narrow that list down based on the last 2 nights YT in CoM and no one cares enough to go out of their way to mess with anyone on there.

More lies!

If you wanna get your epic with Holocaust, join us.

If you wanna try to cry your way into VP (seriously do you guys have keys!? careful it takes effort!) and get lied to by this guy, suit yourself.

See you in Thurgadin.

[arsenalpow]

"...a goddam penal colony..."

But is it like the Tantalus colony, or Rura Penthe?

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55829376.jpg

We used to play a game back on SZ called grief greeny. The game was made to entice the higher level members of the team to come defend the lowbies. So there's no level range, and our group of 60s would roll into something like crushbone and just murder everyone in site. Then we'd find everyone huddled together at the POD lift and we'd AE and kill like 20 people at once. We'd do this until players our level showed up so we could coin them.

Took no skill, was obviously horrible and awful, but it's almost akin to having ultra twink ravage two full groups for the lulz. Not good PR for the server yo.

[khanable]

Cucs or Trouble can confirm her existence

http://i.imgur.com/lMp896K.jpg

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

What char is your gf? I'll look it up on the leader board

Is it Hyperdyke? Same guy complaining about the word faggot?

Hyperdyke is a saint

[Lazie]

http://i.imgur.com/lMp896K.jpg

:eek:

[arsenalpow]

Devastating

[Buhbuh]

Red has some unredeeming qualities, as does blue. Hence this thread. Holocaust can help ya out on red, or if you get whole guilds over that level together, you shouldn't have problems with twinks.

We actually have another small contingent of players who are twinked lowbies that kill other twinks for griefing new players.

I find that most people enjoy it with an honest try. You guys like the BoTB tourneys. Red isn't always that simple, but you certainly get a lot more fights like that than on blue.

Also, having a low population (so far) makes it so that you can build a guild up from scratch without a shitload of harassment.

YOUR CHOICE

[khanable]

I enjoyed my time on red. Everyone that came across me would inspect and toss me a piece of random gear they had. Honestly, you guys seem like a fairly decent crowd with some bad apples.

But we're not really interested in talking about red anymore in this thread dawg

[Ella`Ella]

But we're not really interested in talking about red anymore in this thread dawg

But is talking about blue even interesting anymore?

[Niedar]

I enjoyed my time on red. Everyone that came across me would inspect and toss me a piece of random gear they had. Honestly, you guys seem like a fairly decent crowd with some bad apples.

But we're not really interested in talking about red anymore in this thread dawg

That was my experience when first starting out as well. The red community is better than blue imo, just all these sockers are delusional.

[arsenalpow]

That was my experience when first starting out as well. The red community is better than blue imo, just all these sockers are delusional.

With a racial slur in the sig lol. Red y'all.

[khanable]

That was my experience when first starting out as well.

If you don't mind me asking, approximately how long did it take you to go from a level 1 starry-eyed adventurer to a "60 *****" and a "60 pedo"?

[Niedar]

1 week

[Komodon]

Having fully buffed forces camped out is just another form of socking Daldaen, we moved it from the spawn point, to the zoneline, to the next zone over, to the login screen. It doesn't change anything.

Actually it does, because somewhat better is still a lot better then maintaining the current state. It's also that simplified/defeatist stance which continually keeps in-game poopsocks alive and well, and why we'll never be able to convince the GM's to lower variance down to a level more favorable for everybody.

You are just incapable of seeing that due to the fact that it still won't do anything to serve your own ultimate agenda....separation from having to compete against Class C guilds in hopes of getting more of the merbs you want.

But like i guessed, nothing new to see here.

[Buhbuh]

Those are legitimate classes how dare you people


See what I did

Very clever and perhaps sexually pleasing but also totally not that at all

[Daldaen]

But is talking about blue even interesting anymore?

Still trying to wrap my head around the mindfuck you dropped earlier.

Smaller Variance
Larger Windows

How...?

[khanable]

Still trying to wrap my head around the mindfuck you dropped earlier.

Smaller Variance
Larger Windows

How...?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1663537&postcount=530

[LizardNecro]

What's the objection to repops being full FFA?

[Daldaen]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1663537&postcount=530

Ah I must've missed that inbetween red posting or maybe just glance reading.

Makes more sense.

Was still sitting here at work trying to fathom what was meant by that.

[arsenalpow]

What's the objection to repops being full FFA?

Class C would lose mobs in the transaction.

[Daldaen]

What's the objection to repops being full FFA?

From Class R this means their rotation will move slower. However on the upturn bigger class R guilds can go for the rare-epic targets (CT/Inny/Trak/VS), and get some of them. Medium sized class R guilds will also actually have a shot at FFA targets, whereas currently they may not.

From Class C this means they will not have their guaranteed 2 Class C mobs waiting for them when they get out of VP. However it also means they get more competition and they are never barred from trying for a Trak or VS cause it's locked to Class R.

[Komodon]

my final thoughts: it's admirable R will look out for each other in the way they do

but when it comes to working with C, you guys really need to stop worrying about what will benefit them and what will benefit you and instead focus on 'what is fair to both parties that benefits us all?'

if you guys came to the table keeping the division of mobs the same and had some ideas about variance reduction/removal of overlap, without trying to get something more out of it, you might actually get somewhere.

also Chest I'm not just directing all these posts at just you - I know you've conceded C should have their fair stake, but R as a whole isn't on that level yet

This is why i put you in that vent discussion btw. Well said :)

[wwoneo]

From Class R this means their rotation will move slower. However on the upturn bigger class R guilds can go for the rare-epic targets (CT/Inny/Trak/VS), and get some of them. Medium sized class R guilds will also actually have a shot at FFA targets, whereas currently they may not.

From Class C this means they will not have their guaranteed 2 Class C mobs waiting for them when they get out of VP. However it also means they get more competition and they are never barred from trying for a Trak or VS cause it's locked to Class R.

What would be the objection to making all raid mobs FFA repops? I'm talking about taking out all rotations and revamping raid bosses so they always all spawn at the same time. Basically, only earthquake spawns!

[Argh]

What's the objection to repops being full FFA?

I would imagine the main objection to full FFA repops is that it would turn every earthquake into a clusterfuck of FFA disputes.

When the staff realizes that every time they set off an earthquake, a couple raid disputes follow, they will just stop setting them off and we won't have earthquakes anymore.

From Class R this means their rotation will move slower.

Earthquakes becoming full ffa would have to hinge on moving to C/R cycles instead of C/R/FFA. This would speed up the rotation.

[Lazie]

Class C would lose mobs in the transaction.

:rolleyes:

[arsenalpow]

Actually it does, because somewhat better is still a lot better then maintaining the current state. It's also that simplified/defeatist stance which continually keeps in-game poopsocks alive and well, and why we'll never be able to convince the GM's to lower variance down to a level more favorable for everybody.

You are just incapable of seeing that due to the fact that it still won't do anything to serve your own ultimate agenda....separation from having to compete against Class C guilds in hopes of getting more of the merbs you want.

But like i guessed, nothing new to see here.

I have a proposal, my platform hasn't changed. If you got on board IB would probably be the only guild that hasn't spoken up. If we all agreed we might be able to reduce the variance overall.

C/R rotation. FFA on repops. Bag limit of 2 on repops. Class C maintains exclusive rights to VP, and VP kills obviously don't count towards bag limits. I would say that class R would entirely support this plan and it would completely eliminate socking, not just modify the current rules which would continue the current style of raiding that's been prevalent for almost 5 years.

[Komodon]

I have a proposal, my platform hasn't changed. If you got on board IB would probably be the only guild that hasn't spoken up. If we all agreed we might be able to reduce the variance overall.

C/R rotation. FFA on repops. Bag limit of 2 on repops. Class C maintains exclusive rights to VP, and VP kills obviously don't count towards bag limits. I would say that class R would entirely support this plan and it would completely eliminate socking, not just modify the current rules which would continue the current style of raiding that's been prevalent for almost 5 years.

Again, nothing new to see there.

But hey, if that helps Daldaen better understand why he's wasting his time/efforts here, at least somebody can walk away from this 60 page thread a winner.

[Ella`Ella]

C/R rotation. FFA on repops. Bag limit of 2 on repops. Class C maintains exclusive rights to VP, and VP kills obviously don't count towards bag limits.

Not happening. Once you get the idea of that ever coming to fruition out of your head, then you'll be in a better place to come up with a new proposal that we can actually discuss.

[Juryiel]

Actually it does, because somewhat better is still a lot better then maintaining the current state. It's also that simplified/defeatist stance which continually keeps in-game poopsocks alive and well, and why we'll never be able to convince the GM's to lower variance down to a level more favorable for everybody.

You are just incapable of seeing that due to the fact that it still won't do anything to serve your own ultimate agenda....separation from having to compete against Class C guilds in hopes of getting more of the merbs you want.

But like i guessed, nothing new to see here.

The issue with this is that there is typically a lot of momentum required to make even the smallest change, so it's sort of wasteful to try to build up that momentum toward a change that someone feels will only be a band-aid. Would decreased variance somewhat alleviate some of the issues in raiding? Maybe. But in and of itself, for some people it may not be a worthy end-goal toward which to direct momentum.

At any given point, it always seems that the status quo will not be changed, but inevitably, with enough people putting momentum, it does get changed, in spite of what those in control may have said. For some people, it's probably worth maintaining the raid change momentum behind the "R/C , repops FFA" idea at the risk of getting nothing, since the thing being risked may not really be all that important and may not at all come close to the type of raiding / competition they envision. Directing that momentum to make a largely inconsequential change in their eyes is wasteful since it is hard to build that momentum up in the first place.

[Raev]

Not happening. Once you get the idea of that ever coming to fruition out of your head, then you'll be in a better place to come up with a new proposal that we can actually discuss.

IIRC we had this conversation in RNF and you were OK with it as long as the bag limit was removed? Is that a particularly important provision or have you changed your stance?

[arsenalpow]

Again, nothing new to see there.

But hey, if that helps Daldaen better understand why he's wasting his time/efforts here, at least somebody can walk away from this 60 page thread a winner.

Yes Mazam, just trying to further my agenda. Actually no, I honestly want this server to be a better place. I put my money where my mouth was and stepped up for the rotation. When you were suspended BDA put everything up to get killed. I'm actually trying to change the culture. You've offered up footraces over coth ducking as a solution. What have you ever done past that aside from kill every single possible mob that was ever mob regardless if your guild needed or not??

You can vilify me all you want, doesn't change the facts. I've worked to change the culture and still working to change the culture. What have you done? What are you doing?

Mazam or Unbrella, I'm leaving work, I'm going to get home and go for my run, I'll be on vent after that. If you want to work something out you know where to find me.

[kaev]

I have a proposal, my platform hasn't changed. If you got on board IB would probably be the only guild that hasn't spoken up. If we all agreed we might be able to reduce the variance overall.

C/R rotation. FFA on repops. Bag limit of 2 on repops. Class C maintains exclusive rights to VP, and VP kills obviously don't count towards bag limits. I would say that class R would entirely support this plan and it would completely eliminate socking, not just modify the current rules which would continue the current style of raiding that's been prevalent for almost 5 years.

If the main objection to this is Class C getting fewer mobs (dunno if that's true), why not tweak it a bit? For example, a 3 mob bag limit for Class C guilds on FFA repops. I'd expect that a repop during high server population times would be highly contested with the smaller Class R guilds able to take a legit shot at a target and the Class C and large Class R guilds having to prioritize and maybe not fill their bags, while off-peak repops would favor the larger guilds (Class C, Taken, BDA, ??) and guilds that have different timezone presence (Europa, ??).

[Lazie]

Last thoughts from me as well incoming...

This server has a pretty colored history. It has caused some officers in some guilds to not be open to productive discussions to make improvements. It makes arguments instead of solutions way too common. I'm sure those Officers feel they are 100% in the right to keep being that stubborn and holding onto those grudges. In reality though it causes newer people on this server to pay prices that are just as infuriating, but in a different way.

You know those views and grudges you have towards certain guilds and people from the past are now getting formed about you guys via the actions and decisions you make now. You are continuing a cycle that needed to end awhile ago. When all you can say to those people when they disagree with your decisions is "they did so and so to us a long time ago" it's not a valid reason. You are doing the same things now, but in a different way. The new people are seeing your actions now and how it is restricting them the same way you got restricted in a previous raid system.

If you are a person in a position that can help make changes. Be responsible. Realize what changes you can get made by what the GM's say to you. Take that information and shoot for options that can make things more enjoyable and more accessible for everyone new and old to this server. Just my 2 cents. You are what is out front for your guilds and everyone sees what you say and forms opinions about you and your guilds. Know that and make decisions that helps the entire server.

[Nirgon]

Chest lyin and teachin his guild not to farm VP keys and go for the gusto

I'm outta here

[Lazie]

Yes Mazam, just trying to further my agenda. Actually no, I honestly want this server to be a better place. I put my money where my mouth was and stepped up for the rotation. When you were suspended BDA put everything up to get killed. I'm actually trying to change the culture. You've offered up footraces over coth ducking as a solution. What have you ever done past that aside from kill every single possible mob that was ever mob regardless if your guild needed or not??

You can vilify me all you want, doesn't change the facts. I've worked to change the culture and still working to change the culture. What have you done? What are you doing?

Mazam or Unbrella, I'm leaving work, I'm going to get home and go for my run, I'll be on vent after that. If you want to work something out you know where to find me.

No. You are holding onto too many grudges and this post proves it. Let it go and make smarter decisions that have a chance to actually happen and make things funner.

[Amirite]

Not happening. Once you get the idea of that ever coming to fruition out of your head, then you'll be in a better place to come up with a new proposal that we can actually discuss.

but explain WHY you dont want this to happen..you or any of your lackys have said anything as to why this isn't a good idea for the server...

you are again holding the server hostage..

[Ella`Ella]

Mazam or Unbrella, I'm leaving work, I'm going to get home and go for my run, I'll be on vent after that. If you want to work something out you know where to find me.

It's Halloween night and I am going as Hans. My Franz sold me out and went to NYC for the weekend, so really my costume just leaves me looking like a dildo. Either way, I'm going to butter up my muscles with a whipped body butter for sheen and I'm going prowling.

Also, mobs are in window so it's difficult to navigate around that with vent time. I'll gladly do a vent with you to try and narrow in on some sort of change on Sunday.

[Amirite]

If you are a person in a position that can help make changes. Be responsible.... Know that and make decisions that helps the entire server.


read what you said and realize it's you that needs to be responsible. for the entire server..

[Lazie]

but explain WHY you dont want this to happen..you or any of your lackys have said anything as to why this isn't a good idea for the server...

you are again holding the server hostage..

The GM's said it. We need something that is workable. Aside from that I would like a change that doesn't immediately limit guilds with smaller numbers. A repop can happen at any hour of the day. Fixing the current FFA spawns to make them more approachable for all guilds is the smarter way to approach it to get that result.

[Lazie]

read what you said and realize it's you that needs to be responsible. for the entire server..

False. You really should leave the discussion if you can't see what the GM's have said in raid discussion.

[Amirite]

False. You really should leave the discussion if you can't see what the GM's have said in raid discussion.

False. everything you say is false.

GMs haven't said anything, that was deru with another maybe post that is vague.

the players of the server come up with the terms and if everyone agrees they will make the changes. its only you that is holding it back.

FFA repop is workable. and stops 99% of everything that is the issue..

[khanable]

False. everything you say is false.

GMs haven't said anything, that was deru with another maybe post that is vague.

the players of the server come up with the terms and if everyone agrees they will make the changes. its only you that is holding it back.

FFA repop is workable. and stops 99% of everything that is the issue..

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1656609&postcount=27

You must be in Taken

[Lazie]

False. everything you say is false.

GMs haven't said anything, that was deru with another maybe post that is vague.

the players of the server come up with the terms and if everyone agrees they will make the changes. its only you that is holding it back.

FFA repop is workable. and stops 99% of everything that is the issue..

Uhm, NO it was SIRKEN and it wasn't a maybe. Again learn to read.

[Amirite]

Uhm, NO it was SIRKEN and it wasn't a maybe. Again learn to read.


False. You are so False.

[Juryiel]

The GM's said it. We need something that is workable. Aside from that I would like a change that doesn't immediately limit guilds with smaller numbers. A repop can happen at any hour of the day. Fixing the current FFA spawns to make them more approachable for all guilds is the smarter way to approach it to get that result.

But this is a poor reason because I imagine they only said it because they think it's what class C wants. If every guild on the server agreed, they would do that I'm sure.

Forget what the GMs said for a second, and answer that question from Class C's own perspective rather than hiding behind Sirken. I'm sure your reasons are fine, but people want to know where you stand and why you stand there.

[Buhbuh]

Or if you guys don't want to play on a server where you, quite literally, have to be socially responsible for and toward other guild's to facilitate their fun, you can try out Red99 and not deal with any of that.

PM me, we'll talk business in TS.


I love you.

[Ella`Ella]

For a couple of reasons, and I'll keep it brief because I believe that the true Wall-of-Text hero here is Daldaen and I don't want to take a shot at his crown.

1) Removing FFA completely destroys the avenue in which Class-R CAN compete for mobs against Class-C if they wish. If they wish to abstain from the toxic shitshow that you believe co-mingling with Class-C causes, they can.

Contrary to popular belief, there have only been a couple incidents that have gone to GMs due to FFA situations - the SevGate FTE fuck by Taken and the ridiculous attempt of a petition against TMO by Taken most recently.

2) Why are we being asked to concede more mobs when we already did so (to a significant extent) during the original raid change agreement? We're not the ones unhappy with FFA and we're not asking for more mobs.

3) It really seems to me that the real issue here isn't being addressed and it's being covered up by bullshit. I think the real problem is that the rotations are getting longer and longer because more guilds are joining that rotation you've got going and Class-R mouths are hungry. In honestly, there doesn't need to be 13 Class-R guilds. Consider consolidating.

[khanable]

The reasons beyond what Sirken said are that C/R FFA repop takes a % away from C's pie

This isn't rocket surgery folks

They don't want to give up a %, and nor should they
R doesn't want to give up a %, and nor should they

Keep the %'s identical to how it is now and figure out a system, fuck

[Ella`Ella]

Keep the %'s identical to how it is now and figure out a system, fuck

[Amirite]

Contrary to popular belief, there have only been a couple incidents that have gone to GMs due to FFA situations - the SevGate FTE fuck by Taken and the ridiculous attempt of a petition against TMO by Taken most recently.


what proof do you have that Taken did any of this? wheres the screenshots? wheres the logs? wheres the screenshots of the logs with fraps of the screenshots happening with the locs??

again.. TMO causes the issues and blames a Class R guild who is trying to be competitive. becouse they almost lost some % of the pie!

still no reason for no FFA repops. doesn't matter what sirken said a week ago before this was even really discussed.

give a reason why it wouldn't work out better for the server? smaller guilds dont get FFA mobs as it is, but they would have a chance at picking targets class C wont go for first at the last second decision

[Lazie]

The reasons beyond what Sirken said are that C/R FFA repop takes a % away from C's pie

This isn't rocket surgery folks

They don't want to give up a %, and nor should they
R doesn't want to give up a %, and nor should they

Keep the %'s identical to how it is now and figure out a system, fuck

Exactly. The part where Sirken says...

"The idea was never to "take away" from Class C so much as it was to try and allow more non Class C players to experience raid content, as well as a stepping stone to join Class C when ready."

To me this is what changing to foot races helps as well. Everyone can see how the raiding in Class C occurs by experiencing it...but on a smaller scale with a few more restrictions to curb the majority of socking. Trust me if you get really good at foot racing in FFA. You can compete for anything in Class C currently and it's pretty dang fun when you get experienced at it.

[Amirite]

right now, all the mobs are rotated between c / r / ffa. regular respawns and simulated repops.

simulated repops that are FFA usually don't require mediation or fraps or petition or poopsock.

regular respawn mobs that are FFA cause all the problems. they need to be eliminated.

so take away FFA from regular respawns, make it C / R.

make all simulated repops FFA.

problem solved.

thats what everyone besides tmo is saying.

[Amirite]

Exactly. The part where Sirken says...

"The idea was never to "take away" from Class C so much as it was to try and allow more non Class C players to experience raid content, as well as a stepping stone to join Class C when ready."

To me this is what changing to foot races helps as well. Everyone can see how the raiding in Class C occurs by experiencing it...but on a smaller scale with a few more restrictions to curb the majority of socking. Trust me if you get really good at foot racing in FFA. You can compete for anything in Class C currently and it's pretty dang fun when you get experienced at it.


False. this isn't competing. its the same as coth ducking or your rez the corpses strat (which we all know you will do to keep your pixels.)

[Raev]

The reasons beyond what Sirken said are that C/R FFA repop takes a % away from C's pie

This isn't rocket surgery folks

They don't want to give up a %, and nor should they
R doesn't want to give up a %, and nor should they

Keep the %'s identical to how it is now and figure out a system, fuck

C/R + FFA repops actually increases the number of mobs that Class C guilds can compete for, so I am not sure what you are talking about.

Personally, what I would like to see is 16 repops per month, every mob dropping half its loot table, and no class system. Pure competition . . . but competition that is fun! Everyone gets a shot at attacking something every other day! Some guilds get more than others. The only rule changes I can potentially see would be limiting guilds from shuffling between camped alts.

[Lazie]

False. this isn't competing. its the same as coth ducking or your rez the corpses strat (which we all know you will do to keep your pixels.)

There is just no help for you. Poor soul.

[khanable]

C/R + FFA repops actually increases the number of mobs that Class C guilds can compete for, so I am not sure what you are talking about.

Increasing the number to compete for doesn't mean they will get them all. Especially not if they have to go to VP while 10 guilds get the pick of the litter for 30m-1h.

[arsenalpow]

Sirken said "we aren't changing shit" but TMO and IB don't want anything changed either. If for the first time in the goddamn history of the server EVERY guild agreed to something, anything, then I think the staff would take a good long look at it and it could probably get changed.

Right now there's no impetus to change anything because TMO isn't backing down. Maybe I'll go talk to Getsome/Hoku and get them on board, then IB can be the hero and TMO will be the only guild stopping progress.

[Juryiel]

The reasons beyond what Sirken said are that C/R FFA repop takes a % away from C's pie

This isn't rocket surgery folks

They don't want to give up a %, and nor should they
R doesn't want to give up a %, and nor should they

Keep the %'s identical to how it is now and figure out a system, fuck

It puts in perspective the reasons, and saying the reasons makes you think about them consciously.

E.g. Currently a class C guild gets 10x of a mob for every 1x a class R guild gets. I would like to hear from class C themselves if this amount is really what they as individuals think is appropriate, rather than saying C/C/R or "we don't want to concede mobs" which obscures exactly how much more they get. This is beneficial for both class C themselves (they actually see the effect they have) and those who are trying to come to an agreement, to see where they stand. I bet that actual amount would cause some dissonance within class C ranks, they are people too after all, most of them good :D

[Amirite]

There is just no help for you. Poor soul.

False again. try answering my question that you have yet to answer. Poor soul.

[Daldaen]

My suggestion keeps the ratios the exact same.

It just removed CotHing, replaces with a foot race/common sense rules. Which will get rid of poopsocking mostly and this will warrant a reduction of variance so that we can raid and not have to devote 16 hours tracking per mob.

[Lazie]

Sirken said "we aren't changing shit" but TMO and IB don't want anything changed either. If for the first time in the goddamn history of the server EVERY guild agreed to something, anything, then I think the staff would take a good long look at it and it could probably get changed.

Right now there's no impetus to change anything because TMO isn't backing down. Maybe I'll go talk to Getsome/Hoku and get them on board, then IB can be the hero and TMO will be the only guild stopping progress.

Looks like you are the one being difficult with valid options on the table.

[arsenalpow]

It puts in perspective the reasons, and saying the reasons makes you think about them consciously.

E.g. Currently a class C guild gets 10x of a mob for every 1x a class R guild gets. I would like to hear from class C themselves if this amount is really what they as individuals think is appropriate, rather than saying C/C/R or "we don't want to concede mobs" which obscures exactly how much more they get. This is beneficial for both class C themselves (they actually see the effect they have) and those who are trying to come to an agreement, to see where they stand. I bet that actual amount would cause some dissonance within class C ranks, they are people too after all :D

Here's my back of the envelope math crunching the numbers (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1660563&postcount=194)

[Amirite]

TMO will be the only guild stopping progress.

[arsenalpow]

If the main objection to this is Class C getting fewer mobs (dunno if that's true), why not tweak it a bit? For example, a 3 mob bag limit for Class C guilds on FFA repops. I'd expect that a repop during high server population times would be highly contested with the smaller Class R guilds able to take a legit shot at a target and the Class C and large Class R guilds having to prioritize and maybe not fill their bags, while off-peak repops would favor the larger guilds (Class C, Taken, BDA, ??) and guilds that have different timezone presence (Europa, ??).

changing the bag limit to 3 only hurts the small guilds in the rotation, it doesn't affect Taken/BDA, I'd to see the limit to still be 2 to protect the smaller guilds

and

3) It really seems to me that the real issue here isn't being addressed and it's being covered up by bullshit. I think the real problem is that the rotations are getting longer and longer because more guilds are joining that rotation you've got going and Class-R mouths are hungry. In honestly, there doesn't need to be 13 Class-R guilds. Consider consolidating.
That's such a reach. The line has always been long and that's never the issue. If the line was too long someone would just break rank and smash mobs without regard for the rotation and yet it's been a year and no one has done that.

[Amirite]

Looks like you are the one being difficult with valid options on the table.

False. you are the one being difficult with valid options on the table.

[Raev]

Increasing the number to compete for doesn't mean they will get them all. Especially not if they have to go to VP while 10 guilds get the pick of the litter for 30m-1h.

Oh, so we have to create rules to protect class C from competition.

You aren't wrong, I just find it amusing.

[Buhbuh]

Sirken said "we aren't changing shit" but TMO and IB don't want anything changed either. If for the first time in the goddamn history of the server EVERY guild agreed to something, anything, then I think the staff would take a good long look at it and it could probably get changed.

Right now there's no impetus to change anything because TMO isn't backing down. Maybe I'll go talk to Getsome/Hoku and get them on board, then IB can be the hero and TMO will be the only guild stopping progress.

PvP solution? Red99.

Yes, I'm shameless.

[khanable]

Oh, so we have to create rules to protect class C from competition.

You aren't wrong, I just find it amusing.

I know I'm not wrong - and I'm not saying the stance is right or wrong to take, but we're all kidding ourselves here if we were to say this is not about gross % of actual pixel intake, and is about potential pixel intake.

[Daldaen]

that doesn't solve poopsocking. it just redefines it temporarily

Are groups of people shitting in a sock with their character logged in getting rebuffed, waiting at a zone line for a spawn?

No? Fantastic, it removes most poopsocking.

Having characters camped =/= poopsocking. It is dumb, but there is absolutely no way around it since everyone in high end guilds has multiple raid worthy Alts they camp out.

Full respawns were shot down. It sucks I agree. But it's time to make do with what we have.

Derubael stated he understands the necessity of having trackers. We need to limit the amount of people sitting in zones during windows (which my proposal limits), and we need to limit the amount of time these people sit there (which smaller variance limits).

[arsenalpow]

Are people shitting in a sock with their character logged in getting rebuffed, waiting at a zone line for a spawn?

No? Fantastic, it removes most poopsocking.

Having characters camped =/= poopsocking. It is dumb, but there is absolutely no way around it since everyone in high end guilds has multiple raid worthy Alts they camp out.

Full respawns were shot down. It sucks I agree. But it's time to make do with what we have.

full respawns have not been shut down, if TMO and IB in good faith agreed to my proposal and THEN Rogean shot it down then i'd be more inclined to find other avenues, and i'm talking they buy in wholeheartedly and Rogean denies it, not some pretend shit with a deal in an alley knowing that its going to get it stomped out

[Aviann]

Amirite for president

[Juryiel]

Here's my back of the envelope math crunching the numbers (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1660563&postcount=194)

While I appreciate those calculations, I think it's harder for people to put time into processing that. That's why I'm sort of after a simpler consideration. I would really like the class C members to think about that sincerely; their guild gets 10x of a mob for every 1x a class R guild gets. (This agrees with your numbers, 2*39/2 ~ 40 per class C guild if class C gets all FFA, 39/10 ~4). Do class C members really feel this is where the server should be? Not class C guild gets 5x of a class R guild or something more along those lines? That seems still like a ton more to me.

[Lazie]

I know I'm not wrong - and I'm not saying the stance is right or wrong to take, but we're all kidding ourselves here if we were to say this is not about gross % of actual pixel intake, not potential pixel intake.

I am not chasing Pixels anymore personally. I have pretty much what I want from Kunark. I honestly don't see the benefits for smaller guilds with FFA being repops only. I do understand that the current way the FFA spawns are handled limits what some guilds will do to compete and their ability to compete.

I want to see a small Class R guild line up at the line for a Fay. Another line up for a Sev. Taken get good at Racing to the point they are like "Hey we are pretty good at this let's try to do it in VP". It's the same mechanics there honestly. It's just learning the mechanics of the zone after that. I think it's the best way to use FFA as a stepping stone in the current raid environment.

[arsenalpow]

While I appreciate those calculations, I think it's harder for people to put time into processing that. That's why I'm sort of after a simpler consideration. I would really like the class C members to think about that sincerely; their guild gets 10x of a mob for every 1x a class R guild gets. (This agrees with your numbers, 2*39/2 ~ 40 per class C guild if class C gets all FFA, 39/10 ~4). Do class C members really feel this is where the server should be? Not class C guild gets 5x of a class R guild or something more along those lines? That seems still like a ton more to me.

the percentages are that Class C gets about 75-80% of the mobs in a given month, if we moved to the new plan they'd get something between 65-70% of the mobs in a given month. That decrease is what they are arguing against. They want to maintain that ratio of 75-80% or if we went C/C/R just to eliminate the overlap in classes they'd get even more.

the only other proposal that they've considered is changing coth races to foot races which again does not change the culture of poop socking.

This server needs fundamental raid reform, not swapping one poopsock for another.

[Amirite]

I am not chasing Pixels anymore personally. I have pretty much what I want from Kunark. I honestly don't see the benefits for smaller guilds with FFA being repops only. I do understand that the current way the FFA spawns are handled limits what some guilds will do to compete and their ability to compete.

I want to see a small Class R guild line up at the line for a Fay. Another line up for a Sev. Taken get good at Racing to the point they are like "Hey we are pretty good at this let's try to do it in VP". It's the same mechanics there honestly. It's just learning the mechanics of the zone after that. I think it's the best way to use FFA as a stepping stone in the current raid environment.

False. you want to see smaller guilds go away.

smaller guilds are not going to stand around for 16 hour windows for a Class C guild to train and shit on them with their better tactics when they've killed the mob 10000000 times and only want the loot from it to sell..

[Ella`Ella]

I know I'm not wrong - and I'm not saying the stance is right or wrong to take, but we're all kidding ourselves here if we were to say this is not about Net% of actual pixel intake, and is about potential pixel intake.

^

[Amirite]

^

again. not caring about the server , even though you've posted serveral times that is what you want, a better server..

its all about yourselves.

[Lazie]

False. you want to see smaller guilds go away.

smaller guilds are not going to stand around for 16 hour windows for a Class C guild to train and shit on them with their better tactics when they've killed the mob 10000000 times and only want the loot from it to sell..

So :mad: ...

There is no better tactics to racing. There are smarter classes to use to maximize your chances of getting to it first. Which doesn't take long to figure out. IF we all made it obvious that we would limit poopsocking and let the racers decide it I imagine lowering variance further would be on the table. Poopsocking is literally the only reason it exists.

[Raev]

Having characters camped =/= poopsocking. It is dumb, but there is absolutely no way around it since everyone in high end guilds has multiple raid worthy Alts they camp out.

If you are footracing for quite a few of these targets (like VS, Sev) you really have to be at the login screen. It's really about the same.

Again, I think any real competition has to focus on repops. 16 repops a month with half the loot table isn't exactly classic, but its pure competition (no rotations! TMO rejoice!) while also being fun.

[Daldaen]

Rangers with Windstrikers/Rain Callers and 150' range bows is what it turns into.

But if Haynar gets his flight time on ranged items in, it becomes a much more interesting race :P.

[Amirite]

So :mad: ...

There is no better tactics to racing. There are smarter classes to use to maximize your chances of getting to it first. Which doesn't take long to figure out. IF we all made it obvious that we would limit poopsocking and let the racers decide it I imagine lowering variance further would be on the table. Poopsocking is literally the only reason it exists.

False.

you don't need to be mad...

so once everyone figures out what classes to use to maximize chances at geting to it first. is when those awesome tactics that are faster then coth ducking come out.. then you bend the rules more to your favor.. and dont forget you said there isn't a need for fraps or screenshots.. becouse you wont do anything wrong..you promised.

[Lazie]

False.

you don't need to be mad...

so once everyone figures out what classes to use to maximize chances at geting to it first. is when those awesome tactics that are faster then coth ducking come out.. then you bend the rules more to your favor.. and dont forget you said there isn't a need for fraps or screenshots.. becouse you wont do anything wrong..you promised.

Huh ? Can you read ? I said it wouldn't require as much oversight because people are lining up together. I never said you shouldn't screenshot or fraps. If you feel you need to fraps do so. I understand you are trying to troll. At least use what was said correctly to do so.

[Amirite]

Huh ? Can you read ? I said it wouldn't require as much oversight because people are lining up together. I never said you shouldn't screenshot or fraps. If you feel you need to fraps do so. I understand you are trying to troll. At least use what was said correctly to do so.

False. you did say there would be no need for screenshots or fraps... becouse you would always do the right thing.. i'm not going back 40+ pages to look for it.

you don't even remember what you post anymore.

[Lazie]

False. you did say there would be no need for screenshots or fraps... becouse you would always do the right thing.. i'm not going back 40+ pages to look for it.

you don't even remember what you post anymore.

Here is my response when asked about it.


This is just wrong. No one says you have to sign in. Everyone standing on the starting line sees who is there. Hitting Print Screen as you start to run isn't hard anyway.

I never said not to use it if you felt it was needed. I said it doesn't require as much oversight and that hitting print screen isn't hard to do at the beginning of a race when the mob spawns. If you feel fraps is needed then do so. Most will realize it isn't needed after the first few spawns where we apply foot races.

[Buhbuh]

RED NINETY NINE BABY

KILLIN FOR SPORT

FFA EVERY REPOP

STEROIDS
MUSCLES
GAINS

HOLOCAUST RECRUITING

[Amirite]

Here is my response when asked about it.




I never said not to use it if you felt it was needed. I said it doesn't require as much oversight and that hitting print screen isn't hard to do at the beginning of a race when the mob spawns. If you feel fraps is needed then do so. Most will realize it isn't needed after the first few spawns where we apply foot races.

False. i'm still not looking for your silly post.. but there will always have the need for Fraps and Screenshots and with locs and GM proof and your mothers sworn word when it comes to TMO.

this is why this is no different then coth ducking.

[Lazie]

False. i'm still not looking for your silly post.. but there will always have the need for Fraps and Screenshots and with locs and GM proof and your mothers sworn word when it comes to TMO.

this is why this is no different then coth ducking.

As I predicted. Just trolling. Please point to a situation (While you are trolling) in FFA raiding where TMO petitioned Taken without approaching them first. Please point to a situation where we petitioned anyone without approaching them first. I can point to situations where we self policed ourselves and didn't attempt a VS and then gave the next VS to a Class R guild.

Of course when we take these actions as the GM's have specified they want to see.. We expect other guilds to act the same way. Not everyone sees it the same way and petitions without discussing though. That is never us in those cases. We always try to come to a "Common Sense" resolution.

[Amirite]

As I predicted. Just trolling. Please point to a situation (While you are trolling) in FFA raiding where TMO petitioned Taken without approaching them first. Please point to a situation where we petitioned anyone without approaching them first. I can point to situations where we self policed ourselves and didn't attempt a VS and then gave the next VS to a Class R guild.

Of course when we take these actions as the GM's has specified they want to see.. We expect other guilds to act the same way. Not everyone sees it the same way and petition without discussing though. That is never us though.


False. we have already been over this many times in this thread. learn to read.

TMO wouldn't petition taken becouse TMO was always in the wrong. and wouldn't want to show proof of themselves in the wrong..

Taken has petitioned TMO. but that lead to the (i already went over this, but you obviously can't read) PROOF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! the proof you provided wasn't enough PROOF, you need to have a video camera of the FTEr in his basement with satellite images of the camera person in the basement.. and not just the roof! bullshit.

yea taken was given a VS becouse your monk trained our trackers (i've already been over this as well, but remember, you can't read) and we actually had undeniable proof.. and TMO didn't fess up to it until they seen the fraps..

it wasn't like "oh my bad guys, VS is yours now"

it was PROOF GUYS?? DO YOU HAVE IT?? (whispering to yourself, fuckguys they have proof) , ok ok , vs is yours.


good try again tho pal.

[Amirite]

We always try to come to a "Common Sense" resolution.

LOL at your edit..

[Lazie]

False. we have already been over this many times in this thread. learn to read.

TMO wouldn't petition taken becouse TMO was always in the wrong. and wouldn't want to show proof of themselves in the wrong..

Taken has petitioned TMO. but that lead to the (i already went over this, but you obviously can't read) PROOF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! the proof you provided wasn't enough PROOF, you need to have a video camera of the FTEr in his basement with satellite images of the camera person in the basement.. and not just the roof! bullshit.

yea taken was given a VS becouse your monk trained our trackers (i've already been over this as well, but remember, you can't read) and we actually had undeniable proof.. and TMO didn't fess up to it until they seen the fraps..

it wasn't like "oh my bad guys, VS is yours now"

it was PROOF GUYS?? DO YOU HAVE IT?? (whispering to yourself, fuckguys they have proof) , ok ok , vs is yours.


good try again tho pal.

I'm sorry that you are so upset and angry. You would however benefit more from joining the Tinfoil hat guild with how radically incorrect everything you post is. You can discuss these myths and theories in GuildChat with full on support!

Heading out for a bit to take my Nephew Trick or Treating. Happy Halloween all!

[Amirite]

I'm sorry that you are so upset and angry. You would however benefit more from joining the Tinfoil hat guild with how radically incorrect everything you post is. You can discuss these myths and theories in GuildChat with full on support!

Heading out for a bit to take my Nephew Trick or Treating. Happy Halloween all!

obvious dodging of the truth by throwing tinfoil hats in this.. just further proves me correct.

show me proof that i'm wrong... come on, wheres the proof!

[LizardNecro]

The reasons beyond what Sirken said are that C/R FFA repop takes a % away from C's pie

This isn't rocket surgery folks

They don't want to give up a %, and nor should they
R doesn't want to give up a %, and nor should they

Keep the %'s identical to how it is now and figure out a system, fuck

What about C/R/FFA, but still full FFA on repops?

[Clark]

Blue players are shitty because of greed.

Red players are shitty because of spite.

One is self interest. One is the desire to make others have a bad time.

That's why red is toxic. Blue is drama, lol PvP is far more drama. And people over there have no qualms about using racial/homophobic slurs in global OOC. It's just another breed of terrible people on red.

Good post; I've tried so hard to rid myself of pvp memories of live. Was a totally different time. Still like pvp, but when its the same small pool of people they get too vindictive. On live things never really got too weird.

[Aviann]

I'm sorry that you are so upset and angry. You would however benefit more from joining the Tinfoil hat guild with how radically incorrect everything you post is. You can discuss these myths and theories in GuildChat with full on support!

Heading out for a bit to take my Nephew Trick or Treating. Happy Halloween all!

If I'm not mistaken, everything Amirite has posted has been the concern of pretty much everyone but TMO, but you are lacking the insight to realize this. Isn't the proof in the fact that you've sat here arguing for 60 pages against at least half a dozen other guilds' members, not counting the anonymous accounts.

You sir, are inept.

Have fun trick or treating, the children deserve to have a good time tonight.

[Lazie]

If I'm not mistaken, everything Amirite has posted has been the concern of pretty much everyone but TMO, but you are lacking the insight to realize this. Isn't the proof in the fact that you've sat here arguing for 60 pages against at least half a dozen other guilds' members, not counting the anonymous accounts.

You sir, are inept.

Have fun trick or treating, the children deserve to have a good time tonight.

Actually the only inept person (as far as making a point and an argument) I saw in this thread was Amirite (Before you carelessly just threw your blind support his way). Everyone else seemed to make their views pretty well known. They actually used facts that had some merit and not some invented theory as a point of contention. If this were RNF I'd say he went full retard, but it isn't.

As you notice in this thread if you read it Aviann. The folks I was discussing things with came to a clear understanding with each other. Even people in Amirite's own guild. I understand adult conversations are tough for some people though, so I tried to be nice to him. Most of the problems that arise in discussions like these always comes down to past wrongs that caused grudges. When I say past I mean well over a year.

There can be some good changes if people just let go of those. Because whether you or anyone else wants to admit it... TMO does the right thing when issues arise. We come to the table to help make changes. We don't push the rules or the envelope to make things harder on everyone. I know these facts are hard to believe because everyone wants to hold grudges over how things were before. Everyone wants to point fingers to blame someone. The truth is in the body of our work since the changes and the merge.

[TheDoja]

As an outside observer and filthy casual, I've read thru this thread trying to actually decipher the term "poopsocking" and a lot of the other acronyms tossed around. It was entertaining, but alas still unsolved.

I never hit max level in 1999, never played Live past PoP and am currently just slowly leveling a 30 Enchanter. Starting to think it's a blessing over burden I'm not at raiding tier or in a raiding guild atm.

Anyhoo, happy halloween :)

[Clark]

For a couple of reasons, and I'll keep it brief because I believe that the true Wall-of-Text hero here is Daldaen and I don't want to take a shot at his crown.

1) Removing FFA completely destroys the avenue in which Class-R CAN compete for mobs against Class-C if they wish. If they wish to abstain from the toxic shitshow that you believe co-mingling with Class-C causes, they can.

Contrary to popular belief, there have only been a couple incidents that have gone to GMs due to FFA situations - the SevGate FTE fuck by Taken and the ridiculous attempt of a petition against TMO by Taken most recently.

2) Why are we being asked to concede more mobs when we already did so (to a significant extent) during the original raid change agreement? We're not the ones unhappy with FFA and we're not asking for more mobs.

3) It really seems to me that the real issue here isn't being addressed and it's being covered up by bullshit. I think the real problem is that the rotations are getting longer and longer because more guilds are joining that rotation you've got going and Class-R mouths are hungry. In honestly, there doesn't need to be 13 Class-R guilds. Consider consolidating.

Good post.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what proof do you have that Taken did any of this? wheres the screenshots? wheres the logs? wheres the screenshots of the logs with fraps of the screenshots happening with the locs??

again.. TMO causes the issues and blames a Class R guild who is trying to be competitive. becouse they almost lost some % of the pie!

still no reason for no FFA repops. doesn't matter what sirken said a week ago before this was even really discussed.

give a reason why it wouldn't work out better for the server? smaller guilds dont get FFA mobs as it is, but they would have a chance at picking targets class C wont go for first at the last second decision

http://i.imgur.com/Ttb7kJh.jpg

[Clark]

If I'm not mistaken, everything Amirite has posted has been the concern of pretty much everyone.

http://i.imgur.com/RzEGfEj.png

[Aviann]

http://i.imgur.com/RzEGfEj.png

Clark <The Mystical Order>

Shut up.

Actually the only inept person (as far as making a point and an argument) I saw in this thread was Amirite (Before you carelessly just threw your blind support his way). Everyone else seemed to make their views pretty well known. They actually used facts that had some merit and not some invented theory as a point of contention. If this were RNF I'd say he went full retard, but it isn't.

As you notice in this thread if you read it Aviann. The folks I was discussing things with came to a clear understanding with each other. Even people in Amirite's own guild. I understand adult conversations are tough for some people though, so I tried to be nice to him. Most of the problems that arise in discussions like these always comes down to past wrongs that caused grudges. When I say past I mean well over a year.

There can be some good changes if people just let go of those. Because whether you or anyone else wants to admit it... TMO does the right thing when issues arise. We come to the table to help make changes. We don't push the rules or the envelope to make things harder on everyone. I know these facts are hard to believe because everyone wants to hold grudges over how things were before. Everyone wants to point fingers to blame someone. The truth is in the body of our work since the changes and the merge.

If I'm not mistaken, my point is still the same as when I was posting in this thread earlier, and Amirite helps conclude my proof that I am not alone, nor are we, in wanting a difference that TMO does not want. I hate to call you inept but you are blindly ignoring the words that we are writing here and continue thinking that what you believe is what everyone believes.

I like you Lazie, but I don't like the point you are fighting for, because its the equivalent as the 1% fighting the 99%. It isn't right and you know it damn well.

You were an amazing person in game from multiple character's perspectives, but what you portray on the forums is a tyrant looking to rule among the rest of us with your pixelated guild. Fuck that. We want to have fun playing this server, we don't want shit given to us, we want to earn it and not be blocked from being able to earn it. We want a chance to enjoy the game instead of one guild cockblocking the rest of us, and guilds like BDA and Taken have been our only basic defense against you, simply because they are willing to step to your game, as low as it is.

[Clark]

Clark <The Mystical Order>

Shut up.

Pretty certain I used to buff and help you in Lguk on my enchanter; show some respect for your Elders Youngster Mcgee.

Unless you're some impostor.

[arsenalpow]

http://i.imgur.com/whXJymY.jpg

[Clark]

My girlfriend was on red last night

http://i.imgur.com/o8OWhxj.png

[Niedar]

Good post; I've tried so hard to rid myself of pvp memories of live. Was a totally different time. Still like pvp, but when its the same small pool of people they get too vindictive. On live things never really got too weird.

67 page thread and counting

[arsenalpow]

http://i.imgur.com/o8OWhxj.png

did you shop that on the fly? i couldn't find that with my google fu, if so i'm impressed

edit: NM, found it (http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz174/ericg320/Mantigirl.jpg)

[Aviann]

Pretty certain I used to buff and help you in Lguk on my enchanter; show some respect for your Elders Youngster Mcgee.

Unless you're some impostor.

If you were there in my semi afk'ness, then thank you. Otherwise, your persona in this thread is definitely a different altitude of what you carry your characters on. I'm sure I thanked you, unless I was afk, and in the future, I thank you again. But your character is nothing reflecting in comparison to your forum persona in this thread.

Not to mention, your enchanter wasn't TMO tagged if I thanked you.

[Magnar]

If you were there in my semi afk'ness, then thank you. Otherwise, your persona in this thread is definitely a different altitude of what you carry your characters on. I'm sure I thanked you, unless I was afk, and in the future, I thank you again. But your character is nothing reflecting in comparison to your forum persona in this thread.

Not to mention, your enchanter wasn't TMO tagged if I thanked you.

Does it really matter what guild tag someone is wearing for them to be treated like a person? If you even have the slightest thought of 'yes', 'maybe', or anything along those lines, you need to rethink your damn priorities in life. Plenty of people in TMO, IB, BDA, Taken, etc are dickheads. Plenty of them are also really good people that go out of their way to help others out at the drop of a hat, no matter who it is. I needed a rez today, random guy in a guild I'm not a part of came running half an hour and wouldn't take any money for it, then came back AGAIN within the next couple hours to rez people FOR FREE. He didn't give a shit what guild tag people were wearing, he just saw bodies and had an epic to click.

Guild tags don't define the individual. Like stated either in this thread or another one...a lot of the issues with the raid scene are people in guild leadership positions having chips on their shoulders about whatever may or may not have happened in the past and they aren't willing to grow the hell up and get over it, and they're willing to hurt everyone else on the server while they throw their tantrum.

[Tasslehofp99]

If you really want more mobs, join class C.


Its a simple solution that even the server GM's have tried to suggest. I have a feeling class R is only going to have more issues with the raid scene as new class R guilds come out and wish to join their rotation, as has been mentioned already.

[Aviann]

Does it really matter what guild tag someone is wearing for them to be treated like a person? If you even have the slightest thought of 'yes', 'maybe', or anything along those lines, you need to rethink your damn priorities in life. Plenty of people in TMO, IB, BDA, Taken, etc are dickheads. Plenty of them are also really good people that go out of their way to help others out at the drop of a hat, no matter who it is. I needed a rez today, random guy in a guild I'm not a part of came running half an hour and wouldn't take any money for it, then came back AGAIN within the next couple hours to rez people FOR FREE. He didn't give a shit what guild tag people were wearing, he just saw bodies and had an epic to click.

Guild tags don't define the individual. Like stated either in this thread or another one...a lot of the issues with the raid scene are people in guild leadership positions having chips on their shoulders about whatever may or may not have happened in the past and they aren't willing to grow the hell up and get over it, and they're willing to hurt everyone else on the server while they throw their tantrum.

I think you misunderstand what I am fighting for. You are totally correct! It doesn't matter what guild tag these individuals have. I am guildlless myself but I am fighting for my right to excell. I hope you don't predetermine my position in these politics, because I am fighting for the individual. Not the guildtagged, not the privileged, I am fighting for the individual.

[Tasslehofp99]

Why is this post not in RNF already? lol jeez

[Aviann]

Why is this post not in RNF already? lol jeez

Because its a serious issue

[Tasslehofp99]

not some pretend shit with a deal in an alley knowing that its going to get it stomped out

lol

[Komodon]

You can vilify me all you want, doesn't change the facts. I've worked to change the culture and still working to change the culture. What have you done? What are you doing?

I've spent the last few days exploring the possibility of making FFA spawns a much more approachable experience for Class R guilds. Which i guess isn't the same as sticking my foot down and demanding more free merbs, which most of the people you are representing should not rationally expect to get to begin with, but is something which you never will even try for on their behalf. But like stated earlier, the ideas being floated around in this thread to do that really are not any different then what you essentially didn't want to hear 6+ months ago.

I would have already expected to have to sell some of my own stuff to IB on the back end...that actually offered something i felt a chance of them seeing an individual benefit in. Good luck taking the same no budge and demanding approach with them though.

[Gimp]

More class R guilds joining rotation, class R wants more mobs.

Shocking, I tell ya.

[Aviann]

I've spent the last few days exploring the possibility of making FFA spawns a much more approachable experience for Class R guilds. Which i guess isn't the same as sticking my foot down and demanding more free merbs, which most of the people you are representing should not rationally expect to get to begin with, but is something which you never will even try for on their behalf. But like stated earlier, the ideas being floated around in this thread to do that really are not any different then what you essentially didn't want to hear 6+ months ago.

I would have already expected to have to sell some of my own stuff to IB on the back end...that actually offered something i felt a chance of them seeing an individual benefit in. Good luck taking the same no budge and demanding approach with them though.

Please tell us more about what BDA wants, even if we aren't BDA.

[Culkasi]

So just a quick question.

If TMO/IB thinks FFA on sim respawns mean more mobs for Class R, is it because they doubt their own ability to compete in a true FFA environment were they can't use alt armies to poopsock?

Noone is asking for free mobs, all that we are asking for is a free competition were rules lawyering is a minimal thing of the past, and were we are not competing to see who can neckbeard most, but who can quickly put 1-2 raid forces together and move from target to target. Competition - why not?

[isiah]

Anyone else confused about why the class that has chosen the rotation system now wants competition?

How about FFA repops with no bag limit since so many guilds feel like they can compete in a viable manner? True competition would be a guild able to bag as many mobs as it is capable of beating other guilds to. With a bag limit, not much changes; the good guilds get the best mobs and the lower guilds get whatever scraps are left over.

Sure there might be some competition for a few mobs between a few guilds, but if people think it creates some semblance of fair and exciting competition for all 15 guilds involved, then people should reevaluate.

I guess Europa wants to race for Maestro scraps and the like and consider it competition.

[Culkasi]

Yes, that is likely the kind of mobs we would currently be able to compete for, but with practise and more competitive experience we might be able to move up and compete for the bigger targets, who knows?

Yes, C/R with FFA on sim respawns would imply no bag limit on the ffa, of course, that is why we are insisting it doesn't have to mean less merbs for Class C if they are so much better than Class R, and it gives IB/TMO a good opportunity to show that :)

if the FFA element was never meant to be a competition between C and R guilds on equal terms, then why was the rotation not C/C/R?

[Breaken]

How about FFA repops with no bag limit

How about this? C/R, FFA Repops, No bag limit. Would that get Class C interested?

[Amirite]

Anyone else confused about why the class that has chosen the rotation system now wants competition?



Class C is the one that demands competition.. but they dont' want to compete for it unless they have the unfair advantage.

[Amirite]

Actually the only inept person (as far as making a point and an argument) I saw in this thread was Amirite (Before you carelessly just threw your blind support his way). Everyone else seemed to make their views pretty well known. They actually used facts that had some merit and not some invented theory as a point of contention. If this were RNF I'd say he went full retard, but it isn't.

As you notice in this thread if you read it Aviann. The folks I was discussing things with came to a clear understanding with each other. Even people in Amirite's own guild. I understand adult conversations are tough for some people though, so I tried to be nice to him. Most of the problems that arise in discussions like these always comes down to past wrongs that caused grudges. When I say past I mean well over a year.

There can be some good changes if people just let go of those. Because whether you or anyone else wants to admit it... TMO does the right thing when issues arise. We come to the table to help make changes. We don't push the rules or the envelope to make things harder on everyone. I know these facts are hard to believe because everyone wants to hold grudges over how things were before. Everyone wants to point fingers to blame someone. The truth is in the body of our work since the changes and the merge.


False. you are only trying to spin things to make TMO come out the "whiteknight" which you are really terrible at doing..

i have not said anything that was not true. as you have not said any proof to the contrary.

keep it up though, you have clark believing you.. shame he joined TMO.. he used to be cool.

[Gimp]

C/R isn't gonna happen, so that proposed change is completely moot.

If anything, it needs to be changed to C/C/R and just do away with FFA entirely since class R and class C can't play nice together on FFA pops when Taken shows up.

All of these people vouching for C/R with complete FFA repops need to remember that when Class C and Class R agreed to the terms of these new raid rules, a lot of what class C agreed on was dependent on multiple server repops per month. I'm not sure on exact numbers as I'm too lazy to go find the page that has them all listed, but we're a far cry from four repops a month.

All I've gotten from scanning through random pages in this thread is that more class R guilds are wanting to join rotation, thus some of the larger class R guilds are wanting either a change to the C/FFA/R system to C/R, full FFA repops, or a combination of both. Every time more guilds join the class R guild rotation and that piece of uncontested loot pie gets a bit smaller and longer to wait on, you can't come to class C and expect them to be willing to give up more mobs to alleviate the situation. The only real situation to all of this mess is that some of the larger class R guilds need to merge together and form a third class C guild.

tl;dr every time the piece of class R loot pie gets smaller, you can't expect class C to fix the situation by giving up more mobs.

[Man0warr]

Class R wants to change to C/R to get rid of FFA interaction (and drama, and GM petitions - the only time this isn't the case is during FFA sim repops)- the extra mobs (17%?) is secondary. If the FFA repops have no bag limit, then Class C can make up that 17% easily.

Also there is only like 1 or 2 more Class R guild than we had when we started a year ago - and those guys aren't even on every rotation and team up a lot so it hasn't slowed the rotation down at all.

[Gimp]

C/C/R gets rid of the R/C mingling just the same without class C giving up more free spawns.

All of these suggestions that hinge on consistent repops aren't gonna work, as we're already getting less repops than what was initially agreed upon (~1 a week, simulating live patches).

[Man0warr]

But then Class R has to give up even more mobs than Class C would be giving up moving to C/R.

Neither is going to work, because neither side wants to give up any amount of mobs.

[Fanguru]

These are not Class C mobs to give. They are Rogean's mobs.
Class C does not own the server.

Server population wants to be Class R for the playstyle. As the Class R population grows, ratios need to be adjusted.

C/R with FFA on sim repops. Healthy competition, no poopsocking.

[Man0warr]

Yeah but Rogean doesn't keep watch that closely - it would take Sirken/Deru going to him like they did when TMO/IB were monopolizing mobs and causing lots of petitionquest.

That is unlikely to happen, as the GMs side more towards the Class C mindset.

[Gimp]

Server population wants to be Class R for the playstyle. As the Class R population grows, ratios need to be adjusted.

That's just your opinion.

Sirken has openly stated that any system they use is going to be designed around the more hardcore guilds getting the largest piece of the pixel pie. Nearly every change proposed in this thread hinges on some sort of chnage that either directly or indirectly loses more mobs for class C, so it's really doubtful it will happen.

[isiah]

If repops were FFA without a bag limit, I don't think class r would enjoy repops very much. I think you guys grossly over estimate your ability to call to arms and race for a mob.

I truly think a bag limit is the best for class r guilds on repop and to argue for no bag limit would not be in a guild's best interest.

[Culkasi]

If repops were FFA without a bag limit, I don't think class r would enjoy repops very much. I think you guys grossly over estimate your ability to call to arms and race for a mob.

I truly think a bag limit is the best for class r guilds on repop and to argue for no bag limit would not be in a guild's best interest.

What you seem to fail to understand is, that we don't want it to get more loot or more mobs, we don't think we'll beat the crap out of IB/TMO on this, but we think it will create a more enjoyable raid environment, that we (all) will enjoy taking part in much more. When asked for a solution to socking, this is THE solution that springs to mind that doesn't have to change the C/R % of mobs and opportunities, and allow the two different mentalities to meet in free petitionquestfree competition, just as the server staff would like them to.

TMO/IB seems to be the ones advocating that a change to FFA on sim respawns would be "giving up mobs", not class R guilds, not sure how you, or anyone else, got the idea that we think this will give us tons more loot.

[Gimp]

I see what you're saying, I really do.

Here's the thing though: when IB/TMO initially agreed to this deal, a big factor in it was that there would be ~1 scheduled repop a week to simulate live patches which would offset the number of mobs they couldn't touch per week/month/whatever (class R uncontested mobs). As of late, we might be averaging 1.5-2 repops per month. So any change to the raid scene, especially one that greatly depends on repop scenarios, is most likely not going to happen, as they're far too inconsistent to be counted on in terms of overall mob count.

[Raev]

Sirken has openly stated that any system they use is going to be designed around the more hardcore guilds getting the largest piece of the pixel pie.

This is true, and it is a mindboggling position imo. If he wants more mobs to be competitive/FFA, that would be one thing. But to specifically state "Any raid system must favor those who are willing to perform nonclassic timesinks" is just amazing.

If repops were FFA without a bag limit, I don't think class r would enjoy repops very much. I think you guys grossly over estimate your ability to call to arms and race for a mob.

You have to understand: Class C is about making the raid scene as not-fun as possible to spread the pixels over as few people as possible. Class R is about making the raid scene as fun as possible, and more pixels would be nice too but its not the primary issue, because if the raid scene is fun than we will participate and while we won't outcompete TMO/IB a certain amount of pixels will follow.

[Gimp]

Basically all boils down to this: if repops were more consistent, I believe both classes would have a bit more of a medium ground to meet on and discuss possible changes.

This is purely my opinion though.

[Raev]

Basically all boils down to this: if repops were more consistent, I believe both classes would have a bit more of a medium ground to meet on and discuss possible changes.

This is purely my opinion though.

I have been beating the repop drum for years. AFAIK it requires Rogean to log on and manually make it happen? If we could somehow schedule them automatically it would be huge. I bet this could be something both R and C could agree on!

[Clark]

C/R isn't gonna happen, so that proposed change is completely moot.

If anything, it needs to be changed to C/C/R and just do away with FFA entirely since class R and class C can't play nice together on FFA pops when Taken shows up.

All of these people vouching for C/R with complete FFA repops need to remember that when Class C and Class R agreed to the terms of these new raid rules, a lot of what class C agreed on was dependent on multiple server repops per month. I'm not sure on exact numbers as I'm too lazy to go find the page that has them all listed, but we're a far cry from four repops a month.

All I've gotten from scanning through random pages in this thread is that more class R guilds are wanting to join rotation, thus some of the larger class R guilds are wanting either a change to the C/FFA/R system to C/R, full FFA repops, or a combination of both. Every time more guilds join the class R guild rotation and that piece of uncontested loot pie gets a bit smaller and longer to wait on, you can't come to class C and expect them to be willing to give up more mobs to alleviate the situation. The only real situation to all of this mess is that some of the larger class R guilds need to merge together and form a third class C guild.

tl;dr every time the piece of class R loot pie gets smaller, you can't expect class C to fix the situation by giving up more mobs.

Holy crap this must be 2013 because I agree with Gimpster on something. Guess he hasn't gone 100% full retard.

Sorry for thinking you were all the way there Gimpster! Keep on tryna use chars that aren't yours though.

[Gimp]

Sorry for thinking you were all the way there Gimpster! Keep on tryna use chars that aren't yours though.

Lolwut

[Buhbuh]

Are you exhausted arguing the merits and downfalls of variance? Do you have a family with mouths to feed?

Then Red99 is the place for you and your pals, because we don't have variance, and there's not really anything we can do to feed your family, but we're still pretty cool.

<Holocaust> is HARBORING BLUE GUILDS UNDER OUR TAG that want to come over and basically sweep the world map of mobs like ballers without asking to do so.

Come on over today and be men (and women, why do people still use that phrase?) with us. We will teach you everything you need to know about PvP.

Why do I suddenly care about pumice? What's a crimson potion? Why is the Innoruuk shield so dope on an enchanter on a PvP server? What spells are most effective on players? Why does SoW and levitate have to be 14th and 15th in my buff slots at all times?

We can share these answers with you, and we can also feed your family in real life but also totally not do that because we don't have the resources and we don't RMT but we would definitely help you out if needed unless you were a total asshole and nobody in the guild liked you in which case we'd probably not care and let you fend for yourself IRL instead of baking things and sending them to you.

I haven't gotten a PM yet about a whole guild coming over, but I know some of you are interested/ thinking about it/ have thought about it in the past.

Now is the time, bros. You can rebuild your pals to 60 in 2-4 weeks on Red. The exp is swell, the swinging dicks are obnoxious, and we have literally 0 women playing. Just kidding, there's like two... maybe. We have one in our guild.

What an alluring world I've built for you blue pals. God, I'm awesome.

I love you.

P.S. did i mention that I want you to play on Red99.

[webrunner5]

Lolwut

Nothing like being loved. :D Now Clark is your buddy again, well sort of. :(

[Amirite]

Classic TMO..

[LizardNecro]

So what's wrong with C/R/FFA, and then sim repops are just full FFA, with no mobs being locked out? Doesn't that keep the % of mobs the same across classes but make repops a fun race?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

There are still plenty of mobs ffa during repops. Just go for those first? Or ignore your R rotation during repops? Class r guilds only locked out of 1/3 of mobs during a repop.

[Daldaen]

There are still plenty of mobs ffa during repops. Just go for those first? Or ignore your R rotation during repops? Class r guilds only locked out of 1/3 of mobs during a repop.

Should just be all FFA on repop. Class C got FFA Trak and VS yesterday. I dunno why there is any concern about that change going in?

Having Sev sit up for 6 hours cause Class C was bagged out and Gore sit up for 11 hours because Class C and the 2 biggest Class R guilds were bagged out. It's dumb.

I'd like to see more repops obviously. 3-4 a month as was mentioned originally. Would be fun to do 3 FFA with 2-bag limit and 1 FFA with no bag limit. Just to see how it all pand out.

[Swish]

I'd like to see more repops obviously..

:rolleyes:

[Man0warr]

Because they don't really want competition. They know they couldn't dominate if it was a straight up race.

[Troubled]

They've actually been pushing for straight up foot races, right?

[Gimp]

They've actually been pushing for straight up foot races, right?

Yep. Not sure what Shiroe is smoking.

[Erati]

They've actually been pushing for straight up foot races, right?

pushing for races on the normal spawns bc they have the capacity to 'out wait' the casuals more often and on more targets

they are not in support of the respawns being FFA

[Man0warr]

They've actually been pushing for straight up foot races, right?

What Erati said.

If all FFA in the game was repops (racing for targets/mobilizing) instead of 16 hour waiting games, Class C wouldn't continue getting 90% of the FFA spawns. They don't want that.

[Ele]

The game is still poop-socking.

Welcome to Ever(TimeSink)Quest.

The majority of the server population and the server staff have said countless times they want to reduce poop-socking.

Until CSR starts handing out heavy punishments to people that aren't playing in the "spirit of the game" CSR wants to promote, then people will do things to edge out their competition for pixels and glory, including riding the edge of any and all rules promulgated by CSR or the rest of the community.

Competition comes from getting the batphone that every single mob popped and moving characters to whichever mob you want to compete for.

Competition does not equal getting a batphone to log on to kill a mob that is already incoming from a pre-determined poop-sock camp out.

Your definition of "competition" is different from other people's definition.

[Daldaen]

If they want poopsocking to end it's simple.

Make clear black-and-white, even an idiot can understand, FFA rules on how many you may have sitting there before its poopsocking.
Suspend anyone who doesn't comply.

Let's the Class C and R govern themselves if you want. They've proven they can work within their own class to come to agreements.

For FFA you need these clear cut rules that can't be bent without breaking.

Pretty simple. I don't understand their desire to make rules very amorphous and malleable. This isn't the constitution. There won't be a great set of people who will utilize these rules to expand freedom for all! There's just a bunch of neckbeard's who will bend the rules as they see fit in that situation until you shut them down.

[Raev]

Make clear black-and-white, even an idiot can understand, FFA rules on how many you may have sitting there before its poopsocking.

mechanics changes >>>>>>> rules changes imo

[Daldaen]

They don't seem to like full Respawns replacing 16 hour windows. I'm guessing that's code work for Rogean that he doesn't want to do.

I agree it would be better but alas, don't think its gonna happen.

[Buhbuh]

If you want poopsocking to end, PvP until guilds are dead and take what you want. You can't qualify an argument ending in metaphorical blood.

Simplify it.

Send me a PM to join <Holocaust> TS and chat about Red99. It's not as bad as people make it out to be.

The server is vastly under utilized and there's massive room for growth rather than stagnation.

I love you.

[kaev]

If you want poopsocking to end, PvP until guilds are dead and take what you want. You can't qualify an argument ending in metaphorical blood.

Simplify it.

Send me a PM to join <Holocaust> TS and chat about Red99. It's not as bad as people make it out to be.

The server is vastly under utilized and there's massive room for growth rather than stagnation.

I love you.

Yeah, one zerg to rule them all. We all got the idea 100 posts ago. You're Johnny Onenote and all you want to do is beat the same tired old drum all day long. The grownups are talking here Johnny, go on and take your drum back to the red forums where they'll all sing along with you, k?

[Man0warr]

Competing for EQ raid mobs against no one (Red) is the saddest thing of all.

[Ele]

Competing for EQ raid mobs against no one (Red) is the saddest thing of all.

Sounds like what some guilds want on Blue: guild v. dragon

[Holdath]

Why can't there just be two blues servers? Classic had a bunch just for this reason. Hell, launch 4 new blue servers. Why not? unless devs are in this for the $$ donations and what not. Competition is fine, but this is 147 pages of people bickering over spawns is ridiculous.
Imagine a blue server where none, or very little of this takes place. You are forcing people to play on a PVP server because of end game over crowding. Velious will just change the location of these confrontations. It leaves me to wonder what the long term plan is for p99 or is there one? From this vantage, you're shooting from the hip and missing terribly. Good day

[Ele]

this is 147 pages of people bickering over spawns is ridiculous.

sweet mercy, adjust your posts per page setting.

User CP -> Edit Options -> Number of Posts to Show per Page -> Set to Forum Default or 10.

[Buhbuh]

Yeah, one zerg to rule them all. We all got the idea 100 posts ago. You're Johnny Onenote and all you want to do is beat the same tired old drum all day long. The grownups are talking here Johnny, go on and take your drum back to the red forums where they'll all sing along with you, k?

Do you have dreams? I know I do! That's why today for the next 60 seconds I'll be offering not one, but two reasons to join Red99!

You can't kill people that are turds.

You literally aren't competing for anything on blue. Dragons from 15 years ago are not hard. Do Hoshkar with 22 on Red.

Come and fight PCs. It's grand.

[Daldaen]

22 on red, is that with the exploit you were using to slow people with Turgurs to block the most devastating damage AE in game currently from landing? Pretty sure that was red doing that...

[Daldaen]

Sounds like what some guilds want on Blue: guild v. dragon


Should be guild vs dragon.

Not guild vs 16 hour wall staring.

[Buhbuh]

22 on red, is that with the exploit you were using to slow people with Turgurs to block the most devastating damage AE in game currently from landing? Pretty sure that was red doing that...

11 wizards 8)

[kaev]

Sounds like what some guilds want on Blue: guild v. dragon

Speaking for myself only,

Prioritizing & racing to hit targets on a simul-repop, with or without bag-limit, is fun and competitive. It favors the best organized large forces, which is good, without freezing smaller and/or less-perfectly organized forces completely out of the competition, which is also good.

When you effectively force people out of the competition, eventually they quit playing. This creates the guild vs. VP scene we that had on blue99 for a long time, and it sustains the 5% vs. singleton FFA spawns and VP scene that we have now.

Raid rotations are an extremely imperfect response to a flawed environment. They're better than poopsocking, and they're better than winner-take-all "competition" that degenerates into one zerg to rull them all. (How long do you think professional sports leagues would survive if only the first & maybe sometimes the second place teams got paid?) But, rotations are not good, they're merely a lesser evil.

Simul-repops force all guilds to confront the limits of their resources and their willingness to take risks and come up empty if they try for more desirable targets in direct competition with other guilds. Hell, responding to an "omg! repop!!" batphone (or in my case randomly checking guildsite or logging in at the right time) you get a rush from the mobilization effort itself, coming close but missing the FTE race by a whisker or wiping on a risky engage doesn't kill that buzz, it fills you with the desire to do it better next time.

When you poopsock a long variance timer for a mob that will be utterly crushed and then petitioned within 2 minutes of spawning, you're so sick of sitting on your prep and doing nothing for hours on end that when the pop finally comes there is only emptiness and dissatisfaction if you come up short. The engage and the fight are so uninteresting that there's nothing but the prospect of victory pixels to get you to log in. The gameplay is empty, boredom becomes the rule.

Dunno how many other people feel that way, but that's where I'm at with it.

[Buhbuh]

And no, cleric bard per wiz group chain HBing.

[Tameth]

If you want poopsocking to end, PvP until guilds are dead and take what you want. You can't qualify an argument ending in metaphorical blood.

Simplify it.

Send me a PM to join <Holocaust> TS and chat about Red99. It's not as bad as people make it out to be.

The server is vastly under utilized and there's massive room for growth rather than stagnation.

I love you.

http://i.imgur.com/u9DfGps.jpg