Twinkage: Warrior Advice

[Fawqueue]

Hey folks,

Gearing out a friend's warrior, and in the process realized when it comes to melee gear, I don't have as much knowledge as I'd like. So it got me thinking, I should just come to the melee pro's and put together a resource for the next guy that comes along who wants to build the perfect level 1 warrior. And I'm sure I've missed some stuff as well, so it'll help me with those stray pieces. So if you know your stuff, help me add to the list. It'd be much appreciated!

Criteria: Money is not an object, looking for droppable or Crafted (quest) items only.

(I've added what I've purchased already, please correct me if there is a "better in slot" than what I have listed)

Head: Skull Shaped Barbute
Shoulder: Crested Spaulders
Neck: Runed Lava Pendant
Arm: Mithril Vambraces
Legs: Silver-Plated Leggings (Mithril comparable, went for tank stats)
Back: Hooded Black Cloak
Hands: Crafted Gauntlets
Waist: Flowing Black Silk Sash
Wrist: Granite Bracer / Hero Bracer
Face: Dented Brass Mask
Feet: Crafted Boots
Ears: Diamondine Earring x2
Fingers: Djarn's Amethyst Ring / Platinum Fire Wedding Band
Main-Hand: Short Sword of Ykesha
Secondary: Short Sword of Ykesha
Range: Runed Bone Fork

[Noleafclover]

Too much focus on strength. Unless you're making a solo warrior? Maybe you want some challenge with your twink...?

So, money being no object, and this being a tank, scrap the second hero bracer for granite, black sapphire necklace, and the earrings go for black sapph earring x2, or, if you can't find a 2nd black sapph earring (or third black sapphire), go ivandyr's hoop.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Hey folks,

Gearing out a friend's warrior, and in the process realized when it comes to melee gear, I don't have as much knowledge as I'd like. So it got me thinking, I should just come to the melee pro's and put together a resource for the next guy that comes along who wants to build the perfect level 1 warrior. And I'm sure I've missed some stuff as well, so it'll help me with those stray pieces. So if you know your stuff, help me add to the list. It'd be much appreciated!

Criteria: Money is not an object, looking for droppable or Crafted (quest) items only.

(I've added what I've purchased already, please correct me if there is a "better in slot" than what I have listed)

Head: Skull Shaped Barbute
Shoulder: Crested Spaulders
Neck: Runed Lava Pendant
Arm: Mithril Vambraces
Legs: Silver-Plated Leggings (Mithril comparable, went for tank stats)
Back: Hooded Black Cloak
Hands: Crafted Gauntlets
Waist: Flowing Black Silk Sash
Wrist: Granite Bracer / Hero Bracer
Face: Dented Brass Mask
Feet: Crafted Boots
Ears: Diamondine Earring x2
Fingers: Djarn's Amethyst Ring / Platinum Fire Wedding Band
Main-Hand: Short Sword of Ykesha
Secondary: Short Sword of Ykesha
Range: Runed Bone Fork

Gear is fine pre-raid. I would recommend some black sapphire for ears and neck, though. It's just too much HP to give up. Also, change your mask to grotesque (as most warriors, being trolls/ogres, the real warriors, have abysmal dex). Also you're better off with two granites at the upper end, but they'll be replaced with indi anyway, so it's largely irrelevant and won't have a large impact either way.

Also depending how much you're willing to spend, the old raid gear is often sold. Things like bloodfires, RBBs, AoNs etc are sold....though the price is quite high o_O

[Dantes]

You'll want more DEX instead of STR. And more AC over some of those other stat heavy low AC items. Unless you plan to solo PL your way all the way to 50, you'll want more DEX for procs.

Neck: Black Pearl Choker (DEX)
Arm: Crafted (More AC)
Legs: Crafted (More AC)
Back: Cloak of Shadows (DEX and more AC)
Wrists: Crafted Bracers (More AC) Ditch the Hero unless you are small
Face: Grotesque Mask (DEX)

Yaks are no good until level 37. Get a pair of Obsidian Shards and Gnoll Hide Lariats too. Again, if you are grouping this matters. If not, whatever does the most damage. If you have the scratch to pay for yaks, you can bank them and use something that actually procs and helps you keep aggro in the meantime. 1000pp for 2 shards and 40-50pp for 2 lariats should be nothing for you :)

[Skope]

yea, i don't quite understand the necklace. glowing bone collar is great and pretty even with black saph necklace imo, but 2x black sapph earrings would suit you well. replace the hero bracer with another granite bracer as well.

different fights require different gear, but generally speaking, you won't need massive +hp gear until you start tanking things that are 5-10 levels above you on raids. don't underestimate AC either, as it should be (in my opinion) your primary stat.

[Dantes]

Yeah, Glowing Bone Collar is a good option, but 25 hp or 5 STR. The difference is marginal at higher levels. 25 is nothing. For a level 1 twink though, 25 hp goes a long way.

[Noleafclover]

Yeah, Glowing Bone Collar is a good option, but 25 hp or 5 STR. The difference is marginal at higher levels. 25 is nothing. For a level 1 twink though, 25 hp goes a long way.

As a cleric, I'd say the opposite. Health swings aren't huge enough that I have to worry about a tank dying before I can react, so I don't care about health until 39 - until then, I care about AC. At 39, added health means added mana each CH cast. And at the higher end, +strength won't avail you, your dps is horrid regardless and most of your aggro comes from procs. You're much better going for dex - re str: a certain amount of aggro is given each hit, and then on top of that for the damage. Losing strength barely changes your hits (think 1 attack per strength), it more effects your damage.

[William_Munny15]

Never understood Warrior's that went crested over crafted, and granit over crafted, the warrior hangs it hat/helmet on mitigation. You're going to be getting beat on, so might as well have it be for as low as possible. I would also focus on dex more than str, there's alot of items that dont give up too much ac and you gain alot of dex. I wore Dwarven work boots, and grotesque mask, and cloak of shadows that did me pretty well.

[Skope]

As a cleric, I'd say the opposite. Health swings aren't huge enough that I have to worry about a tank dying before I can react, so I don't care about health until 39 - until then, I care about AC. At 39, added health means added mana each CH cast. And at the higher end, +strength won't avail you, your dps is horrid regardless and most of your aggro comes from procs. You're much better going for dex - re str: a certain amount of aggro is given each hit, and then on top of that for the damage. Losing strength barely changes your hits (think 1 attack per strength), it more effects your damage.

I was thinking about this today, actually. The damage mitigation via AC is quite nice now (since that was fixed), and you don't really need massive amounts of HP as a main tank until PoSky, where damage mitigation thru AC simply won't work because of the levels of some of the mobs. What i'm getting at is you may be better off going for dex/AC and some stam/hp thrown in there rather than looking for the best +hp items in-slot as a main tank.

[Noselacri]

Consider getting a Polished Granite Tomahawk. It'll let you solo to 20 with relative ease, possibly even further with that kind of twink gear. The proc is also decent aggro and, more importantly, is an AoE aggro gainer that doesn't break mezz or aggro neutral mobs. I find myself using it occasionally even after getting better weapons; the absorb shield is decent enough in a pinch where a difference of a few hundred health could save you, and if you're tanking one mob while three others are mezzed on top, a handful of berserker procs is about the equivalent of proccing a yak twice on each mob.

[Ridic]

If you ever plan on grouping until 50:

AC>HP>DEX in that order. But don't squat off your dex

Need at least 150 dex, if you can. (unless you're ogre/troll/barb you'll sacrifice too much.)

Need FBSS to proc more

Use Tentacle Whips till 16, Obsidian Shards till 25, Gnoll Hide Lariats till 37, and Yaks at 37.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Need FBSS to proc more
Procs are normalized to a certain chance / unit of time, and are thus not affected by haste or slow.

[rioisk]

think about race - ogre/troll can't wear hero bracer

[ziggyholiday]

/agree dumesh

You actually proc more when slowed.

[Cheech]

/agree dumesh

You actually proc more when slowed.

Agreed. FBSS is just for the dps factor.

[y2sky2003]

Despite it limiting your armor choices, you may want to roll as Ogre if you plan on soloing through your teens/early 20s. The stun immunity will be huge in that regard.

Not that knowledgeable of strictly classic gear, so unsure if there's a lot of dex floating around to balance out your amazing starting str/sta.

That proc weapon progression sounds insane. Def roll with that. Hope you enjoy, twinking is very fun!

[Noselacri]

I wouldn't use gnoll whips. The ratio is so terrible that the DPS hit will actually be noticeable to the group (warriors are perfectly decent DPS under normal circumstances, especially at low/mid-levels) and they generate virtually no aggro when you don't get procs. There will be times when you don't proc. It'll happen a lot, and when you're having bad proc luck and swinging for six damage, you're not holding aggro from anything. Obsidian Shard is the best way to go before yaks.

[Braveguard]

Twinking is evil!!!

[Omnimorph]

/agree dumesh

You actually proc more when slowed.

You proc at the same rate when slowed, it's just the swings / proc ratio is lower when slowed, so if you were to riposte (or say use a riposte disc) then you'd proc more due to the increased chance to proc per swing.

T'is why people would slow themselves when shakerpaging.

[Kruel]

Up until about lvl 15 HP items will give you your largest benfit. After lvl 15 you will want AC items.. the more AC the better IMO. If i was twinking a warrior i would drop the 1hders (unless i was grouping) and i would go with a two handed sword. I would try to get AC/HP items all the way. If i am playing to simply tank and hold aggro, then i would go for proc weapons, and a similiar armor setup. I played a warrior for 6 years as my primary.

[Dantes]

As a cleric, I'd say the opposite. Health swings aren't huge enough that I have to worry about a tank dying before I can react, so I don't care about health until 39 - until then, I care about AC. At 39, added health means added mana each CH cast. And at the higher end, +strength won't avail you, your dps is horrid regardless and most of your aggro comes from procs. You're much better going for dex - re str: a certain amount of aggro is given each hit, and then on top of that for the damage. Losing strength barely changes your hits (think 1 attack per strength), it more effects your damage.

I wasn't speaking to the AC. I was talking about 5 STR of the Runed Lava Pendant vs the 25 HP you get from a Glowing Bone Collar. Both have the same AC. So, at level 50, would you rather have 25 extra HP or 5 extra STR? At level 1? Probably the 25 extra HP.

Never understood Warrior's that went crested over crafted

Crested shoulders have only 1 AC less than crafted, and they give 6 STA. It's a trade off. 1 point of AC vs a good amount of stamina. Skull Shaped Barbute is the same way, it's a trade off but the crafted helm stats are absolutely useless. +10 magic resist and 35 extra HP come in handy, worth the cost of losing 1 AC.

Consider getting a Polished Granite Tomahawk. It'll let you solo to 20 with relative ease, possibly even further with that kind of twink gear. The proc is also decent aggro and, more importantly, is an AoE aggro gainer

Is this proven? People say the rampage effect on the Axe of the Slayers generates aggro too. When I'm using it, mobs just ignore me until I get my Obsidian Shards back out. If anything, it generates aggro from big damage but that's all I've noticed. It would be cool to get some background on this. Was it ever officially disclosed or is this one of those old EQ rumors? Or is this just how it works on P99?

Use Tentacle Whips till 16, Obsidian Shards till 25, Gnoll Hide Lariats till 37, and Yaks at 37.

I've got both shards and lariats, and I notice much better aggro from Obsidian Shards. I'm not sure what others have to say about it, but it has been my experience that I'm pissing off more mobs with Obsidian Shatter than I am with the stun from the Lariats. They're good to have as backups if you need to stun healer mobs, or if you just can't afford shards.

[Mollusc_Munchies]

If you decide to go as an evil race, you may want to ditch one of your Diamondine earrings, and go with an Ivandyr's Hoop, 6ac is pretty hot, and you get a small amount of hp.

Sniffles

[Fawqueue]

Awesome guys, thanks for all the info so far! I suppose when I first posted this, I had a conflict of ideas in the back of my mind. My warrior friend does have the two obsidian shards, I think I was going back and forth as I wrote this about what's ideal at level 1 vs what would be ideal pre-raid at level 50.

All the repsonses have left me with a few questions though.

1) Comparing earrings: Is the Golden Black Sapphire (25hp) actually better than the Diamondine (2ac, 12hp, 3str)? It comes down to 13hp vs 2ac and 3str...my inexperienced melee mind would say the extra ac alone is worth that small amount of hp. But that's why I'm here, to talk to the pros!

2) I was wrong about the neck...thought he was using the Runed Lava Pendant I'd given him..but he has a Golden Opal Amulet (9STA, 6AGI). What's the conversion of Stamina to HP at level 1? And 50? I imagine it's low enough that the Black Sapphire with the 55hp is superior at level 1, but is the 55hp still more than the 9 stamina would give at level 50? Just curious which he'll end up with when all is said and done.

3) I admit I hadn't considered AC and Dex as highly as it seems I should have. With that in mind, my friend rolled a barbarian (I tried to talk him into Ogre, but he wouldn't listen to reason). Right now his Dexterity is 70, and he's equipped with everything I mentioned in the OP. For now i will have him use crafted vambraces instead of the mithril arms, get a grotesque mask, replace the hero bracer with another granite, and drop the hooded black cloak for a cloak of shadows. Is there anything else specifically I should swap to make him a more efficient tank now/later?

[Bubbles]

1) Comparing earrings: Is the Golden Black Sapphire (25hp) actually better than the Diamondine (2ac, 12hp, 3str)? It comes down to 13hp vs 2ac and 3str...my inexperienced melee mind would say the extra ac alone is worth that small amount of hp. But that's why I'm here, to talk to the pros!

2) I was wrong about the neck...thought he was using the Runed Lava Pendant I'd given him..but he has a Golden Opal Amulet (9STA, 6AGI). What's the conversion of Stamina to HP at level 1? And 50? I imagine it's low enough that the Black Sapphire with the 55hp is superior at level 1, but is the 55hp still more than the 9 stamina would give at level 50? Just curious which he'll end up with when all is said and done.

3) I admit I hadn't considered AC and Dex as highly as it seems I should have. With that in mind, my friend rolled a barbarian (I tried to talk him into Ogre, but he wouldn't listen to reason). Right now his Dexterity is 70, and he's equipped with everything I mentioned in the OP. For now i will have him use crafted vambraces instead of the mithril arms, get a grotesque mask, replace the hero bracer with another granite, and drop the hooded black cloak for a cloak of shadows. Is there anything else specifically I should swap to make him a more efficient tank now/later?

1. ) Golden Black Sapphire Earrings are 2ac 35hp 25mana. That's the one you want, it's no contest over the diamondines, esp if it's a large race warrior.

2. ) The Golden Opal Amulet is like 80pp... The Black Sapphire Neck is 7000pp. Consider the extra agility a gift. It's super hard to justify the extra expense, this would be the first concession i would make, even if technically you'll end up with more hps at even lvl 50 using the plat black sapphire neck.

3. ) 70 is pretty yikes for DEX. You might even consider a Golden Black Pearl Choker (7agi/7dex) in the neck slot. Grot Mask is pretty much your only salvation, besides maybe Dwarven Work Boots and the Cloak of Shadows you mentioned. There's simply not a lot of dex gear out there for warriors that doesn't call for a huge AC/HP compromise.

Easiest soluton:

4. ) Don't group with monks/rogues/rangers. Use whatever weapons/gear you want.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

You proc at the same rate when slowed, it's just the swings / proc ratio is lower when slowed, so if you were to riposte (or say use a riposte disc) then you'd proc more due to the increased chance to proc per swing.

T'is why people would slow themselves when shakerpaging.

I miss that so much.

Okay, quick recap since some people have /agree'd with me while stating some things contradictory to what I posted.

Omni has the right of it here, but I think it can be stated more plainly.

On live (and unless the coding is inaccurate on P99) your attack speed has NO impact on the number of times you will proc in a given span of time. With a few specific exceptions (read: Bloodfrenzy and a few other non-classic weapons) all proc'ing weapons are designed to proc at a certain frequency (procs/time) not (procs/swing). If you get hasted, your chance to proc on any given swing will go down to compensate. If you get slowed, your chance to proc on any given swing will increase to compensate. In all cases, if you do a nice long parse, you will have the same number of procs (within statistical error, obv) in a given period of time.

Iirc, at level 60 with 255 dex, most weapons would proc about 2/min in the main hand and 1/min in the offhand. There was a lot of good work done researching this on The Steel Warrior back in the day. I'm sure a few searches will yield more background info if anyone is curious.

That said, I would be interested in doing some detailed testing on this server (or reading someone else's results and methodology). My experience on this server leads me to believe that procs are a little more common on P99 than live, so the mechanics might be a bit different.

So, FBSS = 21% more weapon dps and 21% more aggro from swings, but 0% more procs.

[Gawain]

I miss that so much.

Okay, quick recap since some people have /agree'd with me while stating some things contradictory to what I posted.

Omni has the right of it here, but I think it can be stated more plainly.

On live (and unless the coding is inaccurate on P99) your attack speed has NO impact on the number of times you will proc in a given span of time. With a few specific exceptions (read: Bloodfrenzy and a few other non-classic weapons) all proc'ing weapons are designed to proc at a certain frequency (procs/time) not (procs/swing). If you get hasted, your chance to proc on any given swing will go down to compensate. If you get slowed, your chance to proc on any given swing will increase to compensate. In all cases, if you do a nice long parse, you will have the same number of procs (within statistical error, obv) in a given period of time.

Iirc, at level 60 with 255 dex, most weapons would proc about 2/min in the main hand and 1/min in the offhand. There was a lot of good work done researching this on The Steel Warrior back in the day. I'm sure a few searches will yield more background info if anyone is curious.

That said, I would be interested in doing some detailed testing on this server (or reading someone else's results and methodology). My experience on this server leads me to believe that procs are a little more common on P99 than live, so the mechanics might be a bit different.

So, FBSS = 21% more weapon dps and 21% more aggro from swings, but 0% more procs.

I thought procs were based off of a probably of swing coupled with dex... meaning the more swings = higher probability it would proc? So haste would = more swings and a higher chance of proc?

[Skope]

I thought procs were based off of a probably of swing coupled with dex... meaning the more swings = higher probability it would proc? So haste would = more swings and a higher chance of proc?

no, the only thing that affects proc rate is dex. Haste itself has no influence on procs-per-minute.

[Noleafclover]

I wasn't speaking to the AC. I was talking about 5 STR of the Runed Lava Pendant vs the 25 HP you get from a Glowing Bone Collar. Both have the same AC. So, at level 50, would you rather have 25 extra HP or 5 extra STR? At level 1? Probably the 25 extra HP.

You misunderstand the point of my mentioning AC. You said "the 25 hp is a lot more at level one than at level 50, at lv. 50 you might rather have the extra 5 str."

My point is that if you group, which you will as a warrior, you generally have enough health in BANDED to avoid major hp swings from all but the meanest pull or worst afk healer.

Thus, as a cleric, IDGAF about your hp until I'm lv. 39; and then it's almost all I care about for mana efficiency, so, to me, the 25 hp is a lot more at lv. 50 than lv. 1 (exaggerated - at literal lv. 1, this is not quite true, but by lv. 10).

I'm advocating survivability over strength at later stages on almost any item selection, unless the ratios are ridiculously skewed and there's nothing good for survivability in the slot. I can't think of a case like this.



I fail at multi-quoting - bubbles:

4. ) Don't group with monks/rogues/rangers. Use whatever weapons/gear you want.

Or just yell at your monks to feign in combat and your rogues to feint. It's not like their jobs while in combat are that hard. Use assist. Hit flying kick/backstab. Hit combat feign (if any monks or rogues reading this, /attack off. /doability x. /sit. /attack on. .... obv no /sit for rogues). Don't hit intimidate.

Rangers should be able to manage their aggro w/ root well enough too. It should really be just the chanters, bards, necros, mages, and wizzies you gotta watch. In a better world.

[Gawain]

no, the only thing that affects proc rate is dex. Haste itself has no influence on procs-per-minute.

So, if person a has a 100 delay weapon vs person b having a 10 delay weapon and dex are fixed at say 100, they'd proc the same amount of times plus or minus 1 within an hour? Seems counterintuitive, but I guess it could be true. Learn something new everyday.

[Gawain]

And to further ask, if swings didn't play a part, then why would an offhand weapon proc less than a mainhand weapon? Not calling anyone out, I'm just wondering.

[Bubbles]

4. ) Don't group with monks/rogues/rangers. Use whatever weapons/gear you want.

Or just yell at your monks to feign in combat and your rogues to feint. It's not like their jobs while in combat are that hard. Use assist. Hit flying kick/backstab. Hit combat feign (if any monks or rogues reading this, /attack off. /doability x. /sit. /attack on. .... obv no /sit for rogues). Don't hit intimidate.

Rangers should be able to manage their aggro w/ root well enough too. It should really be just the chanters, bards, necros, mages, and wizzies you gotta watch. In a better world.

I'm talking about less than ideal grouping situations (low IQ players, afk bards, etc).. Obviously if me and you are killing things together you're feigning off aggro and even already have the next pull incoming by the time the last mob is at 30% health. It's just a real bummer when you constantly gotta be relying on that +1 hate off of taunt to free up the monk to do his job. I.E. - it's my responsibility as a warrior to make sure the monk shouldn't *need* to wait for feign to recycle that last time before scampering off on the next pull.

Rogues are simply hell when twinked out the gills. I swear evade gives them a 0.5 second window of time where they aren't tanking unless the yaks proc like jesus off the bat.

At least rangers are usually well enough equipped to take a few hits to make up for the lack of jolt. I've never had much trouble taunting off a bard, even when they are employing mes and charm sporadically. Same for casters, although most enchanters will secretly tell you that SK/PAL's are their preferred choice for engaging a mob that's been recently mes'd.

As for mages, there's not much I can do to stop them from raining themselves to death. Other than that, they are remarkably self sufficient in most xp groups. :)

[Noleafclover]

Yeah, I'm just being idealistic because warriors really do need the help, and many classes could do a lot to watch their aggro better.

[Fawqueue]

Here's another question, related to something also mentioned in this thread. I know that Ogre is considered the ideal race by most folks, but what is considered the ideal way to spend those 25 starting points? My friend had made his twink a barbarian (I argued for Ogre, but he didn't like the "feel"). He threw all 25 points into stamina. Would that still be the way to go if I could convince him to reroll and Ogre? Or should it be a split, maybe tossing some into agi/dex to compensate for the lower Ogre stats?

[Noselacri]

Is this proven? People say the rampage effect on the Axe of the Slayers generates aggro too. When I'm using it, mobs just ignore me until I get my Obsidian Shards back out. If anything, it generates aggro from big damage but that's all I've noticed. It would be cool to get some background on this. Was it ever officially disclosed or is this one of those old EQ rumors? Or is this just how it works on P99?

I can't point you toward any source of information, but it was always widely regarded as an acceptable aggro weapon, and it certainly has been for me both here and back in the day. The aggro gain from the proc itself isn't huge, but it's decent enough, probably about half of a stun or shatter, and it has the aforementioned advantage of being AoE aggro that doesn't aggro more mobs or break mez. Kinda like healing somebody, really. It's very easy to see in practice, it doesn't take extensive use to notice mobs you haven't targeted to turn on you when it procs. I can demonstrate it for you in-game sometime if you're interested enough. Considering that the weapon's ratio is perfectly reasonable and the proc also helps your mitigation immensely until level 20ish, I say it's some of the best 100pp you can spend. I soloed 12-16 in Unrest literally without downtime, because on top of the reasonable absorb shield, the proc has some kind of small HoT that heals you for like 15-20hp over a few seconds after proccing. Stops being much good after level 20ish, though, because mob damage scales much more rapidly than the size of the rune, and you don't benefit much from the mini-HoT when the rune breaks instantly. Even so, I occasionally find use for the aggro properties now at level 24, because it's pretty tough generating aggro on 4-5 mobs as a warrior. Be aware, however, that the buff reduces agility by a fair amount and can take you below 75 if you're a clumsy race. And, since the buff gives a sizeable amount of strength for the duration, it conflicts with strength buffs and will either remove lower-level str buffs or will fail to apply if a higher level buff is active.

And to further ask, if swings didn't play a part, then why would an offhand weapon proc less than a mainhand weapon? Not calling anyone out, I'm just wondering.

Off-hand weapons have a naturally halved proc rate. Also, you'll generally swing a bit less with your off-hand, especially before level 40+, so that reduces the frequency as well.

Procs have a % chance per swing that amounts to a theoretical average number of procs per minute, usually 1-3. Most weapons with procs universally have the same chance, but some have a higher than average; 90% of the weapons in the game have the same PPM, a sort of standard that applies to almost all of them except the occasional special weapon. This PPM is independent of attack speed because it adjusts the actual % chance to proc per swing according to your speed, so that a fast weapon will have a low chance and a slow weapon will have a high. If the PPM is the same (and it usually is) the average number of procs over extended periods of time will be the same. Equipping an FBSS actually reduces an SSoY's proc%, but since you swing more often, you won't see less (or more) procs.

Here's another question, related to something also mentioned in this thread. I know that Ogre is considered the ideal race by most folks, but what is considered the ideal way to spend those 25 starting points? My friend had made his twink a barbarian (I argued for Ogre, but he didn't like the "feel"). He threw all 25 points into stamina. Would that still be the way to go if I could convince him to reroll and Ogre? Or should it be a split, maybe tossing some into agi/dex to compensate for the lower Ogre stats?

First off, ogres are generally considered the best race, yes. However, this stops mattering fairly early, or even becomes untrue once it becomes possible to easily max str/sta. Ogres have really high starting stamina but will eventually end up having a lot of essentially wasted points when their gear gives them +200 stamina and they only need +100 to cap out. This isn't easily attained until at least endgame Kunark, though. Since gear tends to have much more str/sta than dex, having high dex eventually pays off a lot. Agility gives almost nothing as long as you're above 75 (going below 75 gives a noticeable AC penalty) and generally isn't worth looking for at all. I'm pretty sure all warrior races have at least 75 by default, anyway.

Dex is a pretty good stat in general as it improves proc rate a little, and less importantly crit rate. However, having played a number of emu servers, I seem to have noticed that it helps more here than it did on Live, so I find it even more appealing than I usually did. Back in the day I would never have made a warrior that wasn't an ogre with all stamina, but this time I made a dwarf with all dex. Sitting at 150 dex with minimal dex gear is kinda nice, especially at levels where the stamina->hp formula is shitty.

Ogres still have stun immunity and slam, though. I'm not too concerned about the former when playing warriors, I think it's more of a shaman/SK thing, especially SK as they pretty much always tank while casting, and for a warrior it only means like .5 seconds of potentially wasted auto-attack time once in a while. Slam is really hard to give up, though, until level 55 when kick begins to stun. Fighting casters without slam is like twice as hard.

[Noleafclover]

I like stun immunity 'cause getting stunned and losing aggro instead of getting in more swings/procs is bad. But yeah - slam is more important. Solid hate and good for casters. So just a race that gets that (troll, ogre, barb? imo) is not going to be severely handicapped.

Also, ogre stats are solid on all fronts. Yeah though, you might not want to do 25 in sta at this point, with classic on the wane, and go for dex or agi (imo dex, since you only need the agi from djarn's to get past whatever number is the major avoidance hit).

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

And to further ask, if swings didn't play a part, then why would an offhand weapon proc less than a mainhand weapon? Not calling anyone out, I'm just wondering.

/shrug

Just the way it was coded, I guess. That is what the parses showed.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Here's another question, related to something also mentioned in this thread. I know that Ogre is considered the ideal race by most folks, but what is considered the ideal way to spend those 25 starting points? My friend had made his twink a barbarian (I argued for Ogre, but he didn't like the "feel"). He threw all 25 points into stamina. Would that still be the way to go if I could convince him to reroll and Ogre? Or should it be a split, maybe tossing some into agi/dex to compensate for the lower Ogre stats?

As far as I am concerned, the best racial available to warriors before Kunark is slam. So, any large race will do. Interrupting casters is huge in any xp group, and absolutely critical if you have any illusions of soloing a caster mob that still grants you xp.

Frontal stun is nice, but I don't think it is any better than troll regen. Barbarian faction is pretty nice too if you like to travel much... you know, since you have no sneak or hide or invis gear available as a warrior (yet, anyway). Ogres will certainly have the most hp until Velious is around and other races can start to cap stamina without sacrificing a ton. However, the real secret is, until Velious... it isn't a big deal. All warriors will be over 3000hp at 50 with good gear and buffs, many will clear 3500. This is more than enough hp to make CHs mana efficient, and no fight in classic lasts long enough that mana pools are a consideration [unless Vox is bugged and melee push is turned off =)]. I'd say, make a barb, ogre, or troll and drop 5 sta or 5 agi and the rest in dex.

[redghosthunter]

The stun immunity will be huge in that regard.



As far as i know its not live here... so OGRES have Stun Resistance... Or maybe i was mislead.

[azeth]

and the rest in dex.

If you're a casual player who foresees yourself unable to compensate for low dex with good gear, then you probably will be best off dropping all points into DEX. Those extra 4-5 Obisidian Shatter procs may be the difference between "You have gained group experience!!" and a heady CR.

[Ridic]

I wouldn't use gnoll whips. The ratio is so terrible that the DPS hit will actually be noticeable to the group (warriors are perfectly decent DPS under normal circumstances, especially at low/mid-levels) and they generate virtually no aggro when you don't get procs. There will be times when you don't proc. It'll happen a lot, and when you're having bad proc luck and swinging for six damage, you're not holding aggro from anything. Obsidian Shard is the best way to go before yaks.

Not true

If you have any kind of dex by the level they can proc, and all your DW/1hs maxed out, you will proc like mad, and pull good aggro - taunt can get it done till they proc.

[Tronjer]

As far as i know its not live here... so OGRES have Stun Resistance... Or maybe i was mislead.

Just to clarify some myths:

- Ogres have front melee stun immunity, what translates to a small aggro boost. Spell stun, however, won't get affected by this.

- Obsidian shards are indeed the better aggro weapon from 16-37. Forget about lariats.

- No sane warrior would put starting points into dex, but try to max stamina instead. Later in Kunark you're going to wield lamentation / crystalline short sword and by the time proc weapons matter again, one has access to shiny armor with higher stat modifiers already.

[purist]

Warrior that put 25 starting points in STA as opposed to DEX:

Pros:

- Come Kunark, dex will be obsolete if you have a Lamentation/Crystaline Short Sword
- You'll be ~200-250 HP better off than your Warrior counterpart at level 50 who put all 25 points into Dex

Cons:

- Who the fuck knows when RoK is going to come out anyway?
- The Warrior who put +25 in DEX will get that many more procs off than you when grinding 1 - 50 in groups, being able to hold aggro better than you, 'cause his DEX is approaching 140-150 due in large part to those +25 starting points

I fail to see how that is insane

[Noselacri]

Who the hell aims for Lammy and Crystaline Blade as their endgame Kunark tanking weapons? That's ridiculous. Without proccing weapons, you are not going to hold aggro. Anything that out-damages you will constantly take aggro, and noone will be able to slow the mobs until you've beaten them for twenty seconds. Warriors simply cannot tank well enough without high-aggro procs, it is a factual impossibility. You don't have to have your epics, but you have to have something. The most common aggro weapons in Kunark will probably be Sarnak Warhammer (9/20 stun) and Silken Whip of Ensnaring (14/28 snare). I would use SSoY over Lammy.

Stamina is so much easier to max than dex. Once that becomes possible, ogre base stats become far less valuable. That ogre with 150 base stamina and 75 base dex has no stat advantage when his gear puts him a hundred points above the stamina cap, so it becomes a huge waste. Until that point, the two stats are pretty much equal in value, and I say putting your points in dex is the sensible choice if you ever plan to become well-geared.

[Dantes]

There's also a patch post-kunark that allows Warriors to taunt mobs up to 5 levels higher than they are. Proc is not the only method of maintaining aggro at that point. If I weren't concerned about STA, I'd put points in AGI over DEX for more AC. There's tons of DEX increasing items in the game, and even with only 100 DEX the proc rate seems extremely high. 25 starting points in DEX just seems like a permanent solution to a temporary problem, you'll never get those back.

[Noselacri]

There's also a patch post-kunark that allows Warriors to taunt mobs up to 5 levels higher than they are. Proc is not the only method of maintaining aggro at that point. If I weren't concerned about STA, I'd put points in AGI over DEX for more AC. There's tons of DEX increasing items in the game, and even with only 100 DEX the proc rate seems extremely high. 25 starting points in DEX just seems like a permanent solution to a temporary problem, you'll never get those back.

Er... do you know how taunt works? It doesn't let you hold aggro, it simply allows you the possibility of taking it if someone else has it. Taunt does not build hate, using it while you have aggro does nothing, and it is in no way a substitute for proccing weapons. I'll say it again: you cannot tank effectively without aggro-proc weapons. Taunt is almost worthless on its own, and if someone has taken aggro from you by doing higher DPS (as any DPS class will consistently do) you cannot get by with taunt. Even if it succeeds, you will have aggro for one second until their superior DPS catches up again. The only way for a warrior to tank with non-proccing weapons is to allow him such a long build-up time where noone else engages that he actually builds up enough hate to make up for the superior hate generation of all the other classes throughout the rest of the fight. Needless to say, this will take so long that it barely works, the warrior would have to stand there and wail on the mob for dozens of seconds before anyone else can engage. Not all classes have aggro dump abilities, and even those that do cannot rely on them consistently, especially not with a tank whose sole means of hate generation is his physical DPS. The only thing taunt does is place you one point above the highest person on the mob's hate list, and it doesn't succeed very reliably against reds (and not at all until level 60).

As for agility, the stat is useless as long as it's not under 75. Agility returns 1 AC per 4 stat points, so those 25 points in agility will yield you a single-digit amount of AC. Putting points in this stat is only marginally less wasteful than putting them in the caster stats. The only sensible choices are stam and dex, and if you have any intentions of getting high-end gear, dex becomes much better in the end as stam is completely maxable in the two expansions whereas dex is far more difficulty if not impossible to max. It affects both proc rate and crit chance, so it's very important to warriors. Stamina is slightly better until it maxes out and then becomes a complete waste of stats unless you made a wood elf warrior or something ridiculous like that. The fact of the matter is that going the stam way means you'll effectively have lost 25 points in the end, while going dex does not. It's simple logic that dex is superior in the long run, and perfectly adequate even before then. I ultimately depends on your goals, but arguing that stamina is always better is silly.

[Thulghor]

Was going to post a big long spiel on this, but decided against it. As it stands, you need procs to hold aggro as a warrior here, and procs are more frequent with higher dex. Weapons that do stuns or ability/armor drains also help that much more with threat.

[purist]

Er... do you know how taunt works? It doesn't let you hold aggro, it simply allows you the possibility of taking it if someone else has it. Taunt does not build hate, using it while you have aggro does nothing, and it is in no way a substitute for proccing weapons. I'll say it again: you cannot tank effectively without aggro-proc weapons. Taunt is almost worthless on its own, and if someone has taken aggro from you by doing higher DPS (as any DPS class will consistently do) you cannot get by with taunt. Even if it succeeds, you will have aggro for one second until their superior DPS catches up again. The only way for a warrior to tank with non-proccing weapons is to allow him such a long build-up time where noone else engages that he actually builds up enough hate to make up for the superior hate generation of all the other classes throughout the rest of the fight. Needless to say, this will take so long that it barely works, the warrior would have to stand there and wail on the mob for dozens of seconds before anyone else can engage. Not all classes have aggro dump abilities, and even those that do cannot rely on them consistently, especially not with a tank whose sole means of hate generation is his physical DPS. The only thing taunt does is place you one point above the highest person on the mob's hate list, and it doesn't succeed very reliably against reds (and not at all until level 60).

As for agility, the stat is useless as long as it's not under 75. Agility returns 1 AC per 4 stat points, so those 25 points in agility will yield you a single-digit amount of AC. Putting points in this stat is only marginally less wasteful than putting them in the caster stats. The only sensible choices are stam and dex, and if you have any intentions of getting high-end gear, dex becomes much better in the end as stam is completely maxable in the two expansions whereas dex is far more difficulty if not impossible to max. It affects both proc rate and crit chance, so it's very important to warriors. Stamina is slightly better until it maxes out and then becomes a complete waste of stats unless you made a wood elf warrior or something ridiculous like that. The fact of the matter is that going the stam way means you'll effectively have lost 25 points in the end, while going dex does not. It's simple logic that dex is superior in the long run, and perfectly adequate even before then. I ultimately depends on your goals, but arguing that stamina is always better is silly.

This man speaks the truth.

[Thulghor]

I could have sworn that this whole "need procs to gain any threat on a mob" thing wasn't that bad in classic and Kunark...

[Noleafclover]

Procs have a % chance per swing that amounts to a theoretical average number of procs per minute

If you mean hasting yourself would amount to more procs - I can't say first-hand, but almost everyone I've spoken with disagrees with this; and people earlier in the thread responded how slowing yourself would increase your procs per swing.

Unless I'm wildly off-base, you should edit this to avoid confusion. They probably do have a percent chance per swing but that percent chance is altered by your being hasted or slowed so that the procs per minute is fixed.

The mantra on procs I've always heard is: procs per minute is fixed (with the only variable being dex).

[Noselacri]

That's exactly what I wrote.
PPM is independent of attack speed because it adjusts the actual % chance to proc per swing according to your speed, so that a fast weapon will have a low chance and a slow weapon will have a high. (...) Equipping an FBSS actually reduces an SSoY's proc%, but since you swing more often, you won't see less (or more) procs.


I could have sworn that this whole "need procs to gain any threat on a mob" thing wasn't that bad in classic and Kunark...

Well, it's a simple matter: warriors do not have some innate bonus hate generation. You build the amount of hate that corresponds to your damage output, and since you don't out-damage actual DPS classes (except maybe rangers) you simply won't generate as much hate as they will. This makes it mathematically impossible to hold aggro over a DPS class unless your weapons proc something that pisses off the mob. Plain DD procs will rarely do the job because unless the weapons proc for so much damage that you end up out-damaging the DPS, which tends not to be the case, it still won't suffice. Thus you need things like stun, debuffs, or straight up +hate from enraging blow.

It's a fairly simple theory: consider for the sake of this argument that 1 damage = 1 hate. Whoever has the most hate is the one the mob is going to hit. There's no way a warrior out-damages a rogue or wizard or whatever, so they will automatically take aggro unless they refrain from doing damage, in which case their presence is sort of pointless. To allow damage-dealers to deal enough damage to warrant their existence, debuffers to debuff the mob early enough to matter, and healers to heal you before you're dead, you have to generate more hate than them, and it is factually impossible to do this with just DPS.

It does feel a little more extreme here than I remember it on Live. There were certain minor mechanics in place that slightly assisted the tank in holding aggro, such as the fact that you actually had a small hate buffer that meant that othes had to generate a bit of extra hate beyond your value before the mob would turn on them. If you were tanking with, say, 1000 current hate, others would have to generate 1100 before they would get aggro; something along those lines. I suspect this might not be in effect here. It didn't do much for long-term aggro maintenance, but it meant the warrior had a little leeway in getting off that first proc without the mob turning away the instant a rogue enables auto-attack. It feels slightly less forgiving here than it ought to be, but the general functionality of aggro and procs is the same.

[Tronjer]

Taunt is indeed almost worthless as it just set one on top of hate list for a moment (+1 hate) and doesn't work on red mobs. This got fixed way late in the game, around 2005 (?).

That said, I still remember us farming VS, the first mob to be main tanked in Kunark, without warrior proc weapons - and it worked. Prior to enraging blow and ae taunt aggro was built by sending a DA puller, pre-tanking from a Ranger with weapon shield and afterwards the warrior took over.

Also keep in mind that Kunark armor lack on stats, what makes it harder to hit stamina cap.

[Dantes]

Er... do you know how taunt works? It doesn't let you hold aggro, it simply allows you the possibility of taking it if someone else has it. Taunt does not build hate, using it while you have aggro does nothing, and it is in no way a substitute for proccing weapons. I'll say it again: you cannot tank effectively without aggro-proc weapons. Taunt is almost worthless on its own, and if someone has taken aggro from you by doing higher DPS (as any DPS class will consistently do) you cannot get by with taunt. Even if it succeeds, you will have aggro for one second until their superior DPS catches up again. The only way for a warrior to tank with non-proccing weapons is to allow him such a long build-up time where noone else engages that he actually builds up enough hate to make up for the superior hate generation of all the other classes throughout the rest of the fight. Needless to say, this will take so long that it barely works, the warrior would have to stand there and wail on the mob for dozens of seconds before anyone else can engage. Not all classes have aggro dump abilities, and even those that do cannot rely on them consistently, especially not with a tank whose sole means of hate generation is his physical DPS. The only thing taunt does is place you one point above the highest person on the mob's hate list, and it doesn't succeed very reliably against reds (and not at all until level 60).

As for agility, the stat is useless as long as it's not under 75. Agility returns 1 AC per 4 stat points, so those 25 points in agility will yield you a single-digit amount of AC. Putting points in this stat is only marginally less wasteful than putting them in the caster stats. The only sensible choices are stam and dex, and if you have any intentions of getting high-end gear, dex becomes much better in the end as stam is completely maxable in the two expansions whereas dex is far more difficulty if not impossible to max. It affects both proc rate and crit chance, so it's very important to warriors. Stamina is slightly better until it maxes out and then becomes a complete waste of stats unless you made a wood elf warrior or something ridiculous like that. The fact of the matter is that going the stam way means you'll effectively have lost 25 points in the end, while going dex does not. It's simple logic that dex is superior in the long run, and perfectly adequate even before then. I ultimately depends on your goals, but arguing that stamina is always better is silly.

As for taunt, I use it just like anybody else. When the mob is pulled to camp, before breaking mes and as soon as the mob turns to somebody else. It's still an effective "oh shit" way to snap a mob and save somebody's life vs mobs that are blue to you. Most of the time, if you have DPS in your group, by the time they get aggro again - the mob is dead. Now when you can also do that to red mobs, it's a nice thing to have. I'm not saying it's a replacement for proc by any means. It just helps.

I'd rather have the 6 AC. For the same reason I would rather equip a Skull Shaped Barbute or a Crafted Helm instead of an Executioner's Hood. It has more AC. I proc like crazy already. My starting DEX sucked but I'm at 100 unbuffed with minimal effort. So we're looking at a slight chance that you might proc one more time per fight or a slight increase in AC. Either one sounds marginal. 100 DEX has been more than enough in the groups I've been in to maintain aggro even vs monks and rogues.

I guess it's a matter of preference. For some small race Warriors, it would seem like a waste vs stamina. For Ogres, yeah, I could see that DEX would be nice if you are going to max stamina anyway.

[Noselacri]

None of it makes a visible difference, especially this early. You could put all your points in charisma and be a fine warrior. It's just easier to pinpoint what's best in a given scenario than what's most suitable for one individual's playstyle. Either way, people who have personal preferences and don't care much for the last, barely noticeable edge tend not to figure into these kinds of discussions where min-maxing is obviously the topic.