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Maximius
10-07-2014, 08:27 PM
I (and most everyone else who wanted to kill him tonight) remember that Tormax's run speed was greater than that of his guards and the other giants nearby. Thus, it was possible to train him and his guards out and split him off when they begin to reset, since he ran back to the throne room faster than they did.

This was the reason he was fought almost exclusively at the zoneline.

Currently, it appears his run speed is the same as his guards. ONly supporting evidence I have is from 2006 unfortunately:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5768#m1163881017219881946

Can anyone else confirm?

-Catherin-
10-07-2014, 10:00 PM
The deal was that Tormax ran faster than the other giants, so you would pull him all the way to the wakening lands zoneline, he would get there before the other giants, at which point the puller would FD and then the raid would engage.

Daldaen
10-08-2014, 07:48 AM
The reason he was engaged at zone line was because then his script took a lot longer to become relevant.

When he is aggroed several different Giants will path to him. When you kill at zone line they take forever to get there and you can just aggro them and run them away repeatedly to avoid that mechanic.

It's really a shame cause that's a very tough and challenging fight if you're forced to do it in his room.

nilbog
10-08-2014, 11:03 AM
T
When he is aggroed several different Giants will path to him. When you kill at zone line they take forever to get there and you can just aggro them and run them away repeatedly to avoid that mechanic.

He currently doesn't call for guards. How should this work?

Daldaen
10-08-2014, 11:05 AM
Will research.

But if you fight him in his room at his throne, mobs from the back room path to him.

If you pull it to zone they will path all the way there. They arent aggro linked and won't aggro until they get into proxy aggro range.

Raz
10-08-2014, 01:53 PM
Tormax's two 'pets' are linked to him; similar to Vulak and the other dragons.

Daldaen
10-08-2014, 10:05 PM
Steel Warrior 2004 (http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-5304.html)

KT runs faster then his guards and most everything else in Kael ;) Remember that while pulling him ;)

I will search for more on the exact 2 names of the mobs that are pseudo linked with him.

nilbog
10-09-2014, 09:57 AM
I will search for more on the exact 2 names of the mobs that are pseudo linked with him.

If they are the guards directly next to him, it can be Klraggek the Slayer, Velden Dragonbane, Drendar Blackblade, Vkjen Thunderslayer, Irrek Bloodfist. I can make them path to Tormax on aggro.

nilbog
10-09-2014, 10:11 AM
Increased his runspeed, and linked the bodyguards to follow on aggro. Will need to be tested next patch.

dolphy
10-14-2014, 03:16 PM
I use to pull this for my guild and I was occasionally able split him from his two linked guards (same with Vindi and his guards). I would pull him and his two guards all the way to the bank, but Tormax would be well ahead (due to run speed). I would then FD and stand again, and his guards would run further away (back up the ramp, before heading down again) due to pathing, while Tormax would run towards me as I pulled him to the zoneline. This would cause him to split from his guards.

I'm not sure if this is due to the tether pathing only lasting up to a certain distance, or me bugging out the pathing. Anyone remember this, or have any information?

Daldaen
10-14-2014, 03:48 PM
On Mac server I would pull Tormax towards EW zone and either zone or Egress (usually the later to save myself another zoning). I would get back and be able to tag Tormax before he got to the 2 guards at the entrance to his castle which see invis.

Pull him to WL zone. About 3~ minutes later his 2 pet/linked friends would stroll in and auto aggro the rogues/wizards who were at the back of the raid.

They will just walk to Tormax slowly if they are not engaged while he is engaged. Then they will proxy aggro anyone they come across while they slowly stroll to wherever Tormax is.

I could've sworn there were more than the 2 at his dragon skull. I thought it was those and then 2 more from the rooms behind him that would path in at some interval. But damn it's been awhile, and as I said very few people actually killed him in that room.

wycca
10-14-2014, 03:49 PM
There was definitely some funky pathing with his guards on live back in the day, but I'm not convinced he was linked.

Did anyone ever offer supporting evidence of the linking?

dolphy
10-14-2014, 04:02 PM
I know for sure there is some link they have with Tormax. Like Daldaen mentioned, they would slowly path down to Tormax when you fight him at the zone line, however I usually was able to unlink them with weird pulling tricks and not have to worry about them (I'm not sure if it bugged easily, or if there was a distance component to the tether). I'll try to do some digging or check out Tormax on live.

Daldaen
10-14-2014, 04:09 PM
I will find some evidence. I know they were linked on Mac for sure.

Allakhazam 2002 (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5768&p=2#comments)

Tormax's pets can be pulled separetly, but Tormax can't be pulled without his pets. Thus, pull the pets first and kill them. Then you can get Tormax solo. Tormax and pets at the same time is a bad idea. You will have to have your FD pullers work this spawn a bit. It's a hard split, but it can be done.

There was mention about having a snare team Malo/Tash and Ensnare the 2 guards. Because the link mechanic caused them to "walk" to Tormax, they would effectively be rooted in place once the snare team zones off. Which seems logical.

Byrjun
10-15-2014, 10:40 PM
Currently you have to kill Vindicator's 2 guards before you can pull Vindicator himself. I definitely remember on live monks would split him from the guards and it wasn't required to kill them. Is this mechanic changed at some point during Velious, or does P99 have it wrong?

Daldaen
10-15-2014, 11:08 PM
Currently you have to kill Vindicator's 2 guards before you can pull Vindicator himself. I definitely remember on live monks would split him from the guards and it wasn't required to kill them. Is this mechanic changed at some point during Velious, or does P99 have it wrong?
There is conflicting information on this.

They are aggro linked, but I know it was possible to split them. I'm unsure if what they did to split them was legit or some pathing exploit that looped the mobs in place.

It was usually just easier to pull those separately and kill them first.

lurk
10-15-2014, 11:58 PM
Vindi was split by getting his pets stuck in the ice wall. You would wait until he wanders closest to the icewall and tag him, lead him around the corner and run him straight out. The pets would then agro and try to run straight to him, where they would get stuck in the icewall. If someone agros Vindi then the pets will follow him around making it much harder to split.

I doubt that works here though because pathing and all that is different.

dolphy
10-16-2014, 07:29 AM
Yeah, the trick was always either splitting Vindi's pets or Vindi far enough from one another and the tether would no longer work (I'm pretty sure there is a distance check when the tether is called, meaning you need someone to re-tag once you have them split far enough). If you aggro Vindi so his pets are hugging him, it's easier to split his pets first.

I'll try to hop on live tomorrow and post a FRAPS explaining how this works. I believe Kael is relatively untouched in terms of aggro and pull mechanics.

Daldaen
10-16-2014, 08:58 AM
http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=896


That's the answer. You can split the guards from Vindi by getting the guards far enough away from Vindi that he won't come to their aid. But they are linked, and that's why any pets that are engage the guards need to a /pet back off afterwards or else they'll engage him on incoming.

Basically the way it was done was by getting them stuck in geometry, or by tagging all 3 with an FD class and running south, then tagging Vindi and running north. Once the guards and Vindi are far enough separated the posts claim they won't follow. But generally this pull takes longer than it would take for most guilds to kite all 3 and peel -> kill the guards 1 by 1.

I'm sure on this server it will just be a kitefest, see CT.

Tormax however the mobs would path regardless of where he was in zone.

Byrjun
10-16-2014, 09:56 AM
Should get some information on how the tethering is supposed to work. I assume this is the same mechanic that Sir Lucan and Brother Jentry have in Freeport. I've rooted Brother Jentry and pulled Lucan to the EFP zoneline, zoned back to engage Lucan and Brother Jentry would come running again all the way from the militia house.

When we did Vindi on live it seemed like splitting him from the guards was just something monks were expected to know, and it didn't really take that long. Set up the raid in the cubby and a monk would bring Vindicator sans guards. I didn't play a monk though.

Daldaen
10-16-2014, 10:25 AM
Just got on live to play with him.

The live version the 2 guards for Derakor stick close to him and snaring them doesn't park them like it does every other mob, they follow him even when snared.

dolphy
10-16-2014, 03:48 PM
I went on live to play around a bit too. I noticed a few things regarding the mechanics.

1) The call for assist only occurs when you damage or do something to increase your aggro with the mob, however social and proximity aggro do still apply.

2) Vindi calls assist to his guards and vice versa.

3) The assist call has a distance check, if they're separated too much, the assist call to the distanced mob will fail. I had Vindis guards separated and I would actually see Vindi appear on my aggro list then disappear again every time I damaged the guard. Distance was roughly from the ice wall to the ramps up to arena. I walked the guards to the ice wall
slowly and then I got close enough for the assist call to actually work.

Kender
10-16-2014, 07:06 PM
I pulled Vindi alot as monk. I tagged him and ran out into the middle of the arena. Vindi wouldnt path correctly so him and his guards would warp on top of you. at that point you FD.

occasionally, vindi would warp slightly before his guards and the fd meant split is done and someone could tag vindi while i stayed down to make sure guards reset

Otherwise, I waited until vindi starts running back. when he and his guards got to the ice wall they would run against it then warp to spawn. usually the guards would warp before vindi then i could stand as soon as the guards warpped. if i'd been unlucky with a mem wipe i had to run forward and retag vindi before he also warped.

Vindi didnt always warp last against ice wall but usually he did.

This technique also worked with the statue and his guards


2 monks often made the process alot easier

the pathing through the icewall was really screwy

Byrjun
10-20-2014, 10:00 AM
Increased his runspeed, and linked the bodyguards to follow on aggro. Will need to be tested next patch.

I'm assuming this patch hasn't happened yet since Tormax seems to run at the same speed as everything else.

nilbog
10-20-2014, 11:55 AM
Last beta patch was 10/02 I believe.