Monk main hand offhand question

[Fatty]

I'm having some difficulties determining which weapon for which hand for a 20ish monk. I've read and read, and keep in mind I am beyond bad in math.

From what I've been able to find out, you want the fastest weapon in the main hand and the best ratio in the offhand.

In addition, I found that to find the DPS of a weapon, you divide delay by damage.

I have a Wu's Trance Stick 7/18
I have a Knuckle Duster 14/28

By the math I have determined that the DPS is:

Wu's = .388
Knuckle = .5

So the Knuckle Duster is the more damaging weapon.

Next, I found out that to calculate "best ratio" by taking the weapon's damage and dividing it by the weapon's delay.

By the math I have determined the following:

Wu's = 2.57
Knuckle = 2

I don't know if the higher number or lower number is the "best ratio". I don't even know if the formula above is correct since I seem to have found some conflicting information on the web.

Basically, I need to know if a higher or lower number is better for "best ratio" and if the formulas are correct. Thanks for the help

[Kich867]

I'm having some difficulties determining which weapon for which hand for a 20ish monk. I've read and read, and keep in mind I am beyond bad in math.

From what I've been able to find out, you want the fastest weapon in the main hand and the best ratio in the offhand.

In addition, I found that to find the DPS of a weapon, you divide delay by damage.

I have a Wu's Trance Stick 7/18
I have a Knuckle Duster 14/28

By the math I have determined that the DPS is:

Wu's = .388
Knuckle = .5

So the Knuckle Duster is the more damaging weapon.

Next, I found out that to calculate "best ratio" by taking the weapon's damage and dividing it by the weapon's delay.

By the math I have determined the following:

Wu's = 2.57
Knuckle = 2

I don't know if the higher number or lower number is the "best ratio". I don't even know if the formula above is correct since I seem to have found some conflicting information on the web.

Basically, I need to know if a higher or lower number is better for "best ratio" and if the formulas are correct. Thanks for the help

Well, let's just be clear here...

Your first equation is:
Damage / Delay

Your second equation is:
Delay / Damage

Trying to say that the first calculation and the second calculation represent different things is just kind of a misunderstanding here. If a "Good" result of the first equation is a higher number, than by virtue of the fact that the second equation is simply the first one flipped, then a "Good" result for the second equation must be a lower number.

Realistically though the second equation is just a weird way of looking at your damage/delay ratio. The first equation is the only equation that matters.

In EverQuest, it's generally accepted that your best ratio weapon goes into your offhand. Your mainhand should either be a weapon of equal ratio that's faster, or a lower ratio that's faster (by virtue of the fact that your best ratio should always be in your offhand).

The faster / lower ratio mainhand is to allow the float "Damage Bonus" stat you get as you level up on your main-hand is applied as many times as possible.

In your case, Wu's Trance Stick should be in your mainhand because the ratio is worse than the knuckle duster AND it's faster. When you get a weapon with a better ratio than the knuckle duster, you should then move the knuckle duster to your main hand and use the better ratio weapon in your offhand.

I'm sure there are caveats to this rule, but as a general rule of thumb it's pretty easy to follow: best ratio in offhand, preferably faster lower ratio weapon in main-hand.

The only time I could imagine not following that rule is if the higher ratio weapon is also substantially faster than the other, you'd be gaining more DPS that way I believe.

[Nagash]

The way I do it with my little monk when dual wielding:
- get the fastest possible weapon in main hand
- the highest possible damage (delay is useless) in offhand.

For the first point, bare in mind that, as far as I know, your delay can't get any lower than 10 which can be important depending on your haste gear and buffs.

My monk is only level 38 so there may be more to it that I'm not aware off but these simple rules of thumb have served me well so far.

[Kich867]

The way I do it with my little monk when dual wielding:
- get the fastest possible weapon in main hand
- the highest possible damage (delay is useless) in offhand.

For the first point, bare in mind that, as far as I know, your delay can't get any lower than 10 which can be important depending on your haste gear and buffs.

My monk is only level 38 so there may be more to it that I'm not aware off but these simple rules of thumb have served me well so far.

10 minimum delay is a myth, there's a thread on this forum proving it. If the minimum delay on p99 is 10, it was done so incorrectly and it's a bug or they have some technical reason for it (but it's still not correct).

Delay also very much matters. Remember, your mainhand "proc'ing" your offhand was a myth and was debunked long ago as well.

Many tests with Wurmslayer mainhand + Very fast offhand have proven offhands utilize their own attack speed. (Similarly you can just stare at someone's character model, they attack with only their offhand regularly since it's out of sync with their main-hand)

Your off-hand makes a check against your dual-wield skill every time it's delay comes up. This is why everyone puts the best possible ratio they have in their off-hand, and opt for a faster, less dps in the main-hand since a faster weapon takes better advantage of the static damage bonus you gain as you level.

Your off-hand doesn't have to be "slow", you just want the best possible ratio to be there.

In general at least. Later on in levels, when you have weapons that are amazing and they're similar in ratio, I think the conversation gets much more mathematical. As I don't believe the above statement is -always- true, I just think it's generally true.

[Raev]

strange math

IMO the 'standard' Monk upgrade path should be Wu's Quivering Staff (200p) -> Peacebringer/IFS (4k) -> Tranquil Staff (30k)

The Tranquil Staff will outdamage the Fist/SoS combo up till L58ish when the damage bonus of the fist finally hits 11. Even then I consider it to be a tossup: the Fist/SoS combo is a few % more damage, but the Tranquil Staff a) has an amazing proc b) doesn't get you killed on damage shields c) doesn't get you killed instantly on enrage. I have both and consider them situational. Once you have a Tranquil Staff, your primary increase in damage will be STR/ATK, so get the epic and shiverback gear for +STR and so on.

Fast weapons are pointless at L20 when you have no damage bonus. Also I can't recommend the Adamantite Club to anyone; that thing looks retarded.

[Kich867]

So, I'm writing a small program to test out some theories I had about this concept of a faster weapon in the main-hand always.

I believe this is false. If we take the damage calculation from the Wiki as how damage is actually calculated on the server:
[Max Damage] = ([Mod] x [Weapon Damage]) + [Main Hand Bonus]

It's actually kind of hilariously simple. There's really just a missing part of this equation:

(([Mod] x [Weapon Damage]) + [Main Hand Bonus]) / [Delay] = [Damage Ratio]

Let's use the Wiki's example of 250 STR and 200 Skill in the weapon at level 50:

Jade Mace
((3.75 x 9) + 8) / 18 = 2.32

Stave of Shielding
((3.75 x 17) + 8) / 28 = 2.56

We can see that at this threshold SOS just beats the Jade Mace at level 50. Let's try 60 with 255 STR and 252 Skill.

Jade Mace
((4.2 x 9) + 11) / 18 = 2.77

Stave of Shielding
((4.2 x 17) + 11) / 28 = 3.02

So basically, what I learned out of this is that with enough strength higher damage and better ratio matters more than the speed of your main-hand. That it's really not optimal to put your best ratio in your off-hand at all times.

Interesting stuff (to me at least haha). I just previously assumed that the weapon damage bonus was a big enough deal to give faster weapons an edge across the board. Once you have close to max strength however, you almost want something that hits harder and slower to take more advantage of that strength modifier unless the faster weapon's ratio is sufficient enough to overcome the STR bonus.

A good example is the one that Raev mentioned. The Epic fist main hand and SOS offhand. The SOS actually has a better raw ratio and it's -very- close to the epic damage ratio after modifiers, but the substantially faster epic fist makes the damage bonus matter.

[Kayso]

Assuming you have two 1h weapons, your best weapon goes in your main hand. Period. Depending on your level, that may or may not be the fastest, and it may or may not be the best ratio.

What makes one weapon better than the other depends on three things for the most part: 1) Ratio 2) the 1h damage bonus for your level 3) the damage cap at low levels.

If two weapons are within a short and curly of each other, your STR and the AC of the mob you would be fighting might make one better than the other.

IMO, the best answer to OPs question is: It doesn't matter. Get to 20 using whatever and then follow Raev's advice above.

[Fatty]

Thank you all for the responses. I was looking all over for this information, from posts here, on monkly business, and alakhazam. And most of it just didn't make sense to be. I think it's clear now, and I appreciate the help.

Well, let's just be clear here...


Trying to say that the first calculation and the second calculation represent different things is just kind of a misunderstanding here. If a "Good" result of the first equation is a higher number, than by virtue of the fact that the second equation is simply the first one flipped, then a "Good" result for the second equation must be a lower number.


Kich: I don't understand math very well, however, I understand the logic you are trying to get across to me in this paragraph. Thank you.

[nicemace]

best ratio in main hand regardless of delay (obviously there is a breakpoint, where? i dont know). highest damage in offhand. delay is in(less)significant

say you have a jade mace and a sos. your sos is still significantly better ratio and should be in your main hand. don't listen to any joker that says jade mace should be main hand.

[Kich867]

best ratio in main hand regardless of delay (obviously there is a breakpoint, where? i dont know). highest damage in offhand. delay is in(less)significant

say you have a jade mace and a sos. your sos is still significantly better ratio and should be in your main hand. don't listen to any joker that says jade mace should be main hand.

That's highly reliant on your strength though. Damage per hit is quite low in EQ, and the weapon bonus is static, non-reliant on weapon damage, non-reliant on strength. While the SOS is higher ratio, unless you have a lot of strength gear, the jade mace will out-perform due to the passively high weapon damage bonus being applied as often as it does.

The Jade Mace in the main-hand is actually quite impressive. However, we're missing parts of the calculation: namely, just how much strength actually influences your damage.

At low levels, sure, the SOS is just better in the main-hand, but at later levels with lower STR gear the Jade Mace is substantially better.

Please try to include some actual evidence to support posts like these.

Furthermore, saying ratio doesn't matter as much in your offhand sounds misinformed. Your off-hand has no weapon bonus, so the only way to gauge it is purely based on weapon ratio--the best ratio performs best in your offhand. Compared to your main-hand, where the best ratio -often- doesn't out-perform lesser ratio, faster hitting weapons. Purely due to that weapon damage bonus.