Shammy - Barb vs Troll

[nilmerg]

Hi. I've been wanting to try out a Shaman for a long while. I have moderate experience with classic era EQ, by no means an expert. I was trying to debate between barb or troll for the race. I know troll has the awesome regen, but barb isn't hated by everyone. What did you guys pick, and why?

[iruinedyourday]

I love my barb cus i wanted a barb. That said, a troll in full plate looks fucking awesome.. so if you go troll, please wear full plate.

Troll also gets a snare clicky, so its got that going for it, probably could do some fun kite with it while you level? meh.

It doesn't really matter between troll/barb IMO.. extra few hps a tick is meh. If after a full life bar you're like, "that 86 more HPS I got as a troll is the reason I won that fight!" then you got lucky & you're saying something you'll never say again.

You get dat planer gear and wear it like a bawse then you will be happy u picked troll, that said planer gear is hard to get.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/races/troll_image.JPG

But daym, that shit makes me wish I rolled troll sometimes.

*edit* you said barb isnt hated by everyone, yet buying spells/skillups at the GM is easier as a troll, becuse the only place you can do that as a barb is in bumfuk halas 360 miles away from everywhere.

Fun to go on RP trips to halas tho so, barbs got that going for it I guess.

[loramin]

If you want to power-game things for when you someday hit 60, the hierarchy of shaman races is basically:


Ogre (stun immunity is handy for soloing at high levels)
Troll (regen is great, and they can use the JBB)
Iksar (regen is great, but no JBB)
Barbarian (no immunity, no regen)

But that being said, I picked a Barbarian myself and have no regrets because ...


XP Penalty: Barbarians have the lowest XP penalty. I'm only level 57 after playing for more than a year: if I'd gone evil I'd be even lower right now.
Jaundiced Bone Bracer: I use my JBB A LOT, and Iksar can't. 'nuff said.
Kunark Cities: Almost all of the good dungeons in Kunark lower your faction with The Overthere. If you're an Ogre/Troll you have to choose between avoiding those dungeons, being KOS in your only Kunark town, or doing a lot of faction work.
Old World Cities: This is less of a deal, but it's still nice to be able to sell/bank in Kaladim, Freeport, and various other places all over that evil races can't.

IMHO, the correct race for you is ... whatever seems the most fun. Seriously, this is a game, and none of the factors I just listed really matter that much. Just do what appeals to you.

[Potus]

Do Barbarians still have that annoying graphical glitch where their shoes are black? Yeah go Troll.

[iruinedyourday]

Do Barbarians still have that annoying graphical glitch where their shoes are black? Yeah go Troll.

the shoes thing yes, sigh.

[nilmerg]

I had a dream about my troll shaman last night. The signs are true.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

I have a barbarian and I regret it.

They are the best looking of the bunch, however, regen is an amazing ability and shouldn't be overstated.

Go troll and don't look back.

[iruinedyourday]

I had a dream about my troll shaman last night. The signs are true.

so it is written.

get dat plate armorz.

[Nagash]

Don't know if that would make you swing your decision (and I don't know first hand if it's a good piece of kit or not) but barbs are the only one who can use http://wiki.project1999.com/Barbarian_Spiritist%60s_Hammer

[iruinedyourday]

Don't know if that would make you swing your decision (and I don't know first hand if it's a good piece of kit or not) but barbs are the only one who can use http://wiki.project1999.com/Barbarian_Spiritist%60s_Hammer

woot - wish i knew about this at 30 doh! would be a fun gimmick

[nilmerg]

Day 2 in the swamps. Life is unforgiving here. It's a strange, new land that I'm unfamiliar with. Luckily there are plenty of things to squish and squarsh. A bardic fellow attacked me unprovoked. Revenge will be had later on.

[Velerin]

Good thing about that bard is he is surrounded by random noob troll corpses so easy to spot from a distance when running around in the swamp.

[harnold]

Barb/Iksar suck

Its between troll for easier leveling or ogre for the best end game soloing for high plat items

[iruinedyourday]

Stun immunity doesn't mean you can solo anything that someone with stun immunity can't. You are wrong if you think so. If a stun prevents you from end game soloing you suck and shouldn't be trying to end game solo.

[loramin]

Stun immunity doesn't mean you can solo anything that someone with stun immunity can't. You are wrong if you think so. If a stun prevents you from end game soloing you suck and shouldn't be trying to end game solo.

Totally. To be fair, stun immunity is more relevant in Velious, but not that relevant. If a Barbarian shaman has a 70% chance of soloing a certain mob, an (equally geared/skilled) Ogre might have an 80% chance.

But that certainly won't make me re-roll, and I don't think it should influence the OP either. A Barbarian will save a lot more time leveling (and by having Firiona Vie access without faction work) than they will lose to the (10% more) corpse runs they have to make on the rare occasions that they solo Velious dragons.

Regen is a little harder to measure though; my guess is that the downtime it saves is roughly equal to the extra leveling time a Troll/Iksar needs ... but having never played a regenerating shaman much I don't know for sure.

[iruinedyourday]

EQ is very smart, they made the races just enough different to make people with OCD go insane. :)

[nilmerg]

It mostly came down to looks. I just happen to like the way a Troll looks better than the other shaman races :)

[rgostic]

Regen is a little harder to measure though; my guess is that the downtime it saves is roughly equal to the extra leveling time a Troll/Iksar needs ...

You seem to not realize that when you hit 60, the XP bonus advantage disappears, while the regen advantage is at an all time high. Also, having an XP penalty means that you get a larger share of raw XP when grouped with someone who is of equivalent level.

Regen is not just about saving downtime. It actively enhances your killing power, never goes away, and should not be underestimated.

[Rourk]

If regen was king, high end shamans would never take off Fungis. But they do. Regen loses a lot of its appeal once you get torpor.

[justin2090]

Ogre because regen doesn't mean shit when you got torpor

[Potus]

1-59 sucks without Regen.

[iruinedyourday]

I would never disagree that regen is great. But anything but Fungi is just a placebo

Ask your self, would you spend 20k for an iskar BP if you couldnt afford a Fungi?

if the answer is yes, then roll a Ogre because that means you care too much about game play effects that arnt really game changing and will eventually be so bummed you didnt omit frontal stun from your eq.

If no, then roll which ever class will make you RP the hardest ;)

I do kinda wish I rolled a troll instead of barb. Not at all for the regen, but for the siiiiiick full plate graphic omg.

but i must not discount the Eyepatch.... that is a racial attribute that is arguably more valuable than even if you were to combine stunimmune+regen!

What we're getting at guys is Shaman is a class worth playing to 60 twice :)

[loramin]

What we're getting at guys is Shaman is a class worth playing to 60 twice :)

Amen. And having done it twice myself (once on live, once here), I'm now seriously considering doing it a third time just so I can try a non-Barbarian race.

[Byrjun]

If you want to power-game things for when you someday hit 60, the hierarchy of shaman races is basically:


Ogre (stun immunity is handy for soloing at high levels)
Troll (regen is great, and they can use the JBB)
Iksar (regen is great, but no JBB)
Barbarian (no immunity, no regen)


This list is correct, except I'd put Iksars below Barbarians as the worse Shaman race. People don't really seem to consider starting stats for some reason, and Iksar starting stats are really bad compared to the other 3 races. That might not be enough to bury them, but being restricted from certain gear (especially JBB) does. They get some better resist gear choices in Kunark (Scaled Mystic, Stone of Morid, etc), but it's not enough to make up for it.

Do Barbarians still have that annoying graphical glitch where their shoes are black? Yeah go Troll.

There's a fix for this, also fixes the black splotches on dark elf armor, dragon wings, evil eyes, etc.

Stun immunity doesn't mean you can solo anything that someone with stun immunity can't. You are wrong if you think so. If a stun prevents you from end game soloing you suck and shouldn't be trying to end game solo.

Nothing really "prevents" you from end game soloing, it's just not having certain things makes your life more difficult, and in a really close fight you could lose without access to stun immunity / JBB / whatever.

If regen was king, high end shamans would never take off Fungis. But they do. Regen loses a lot of its appeal once you get torpor.

Shamans take off their fungis? I never do unless A) I need to equip a resist chest for an AE fight, or B) I'm standing in EC and want to equip my Jaundiced Bone BP for vanity. It's really noticeable when I'm not wearing my fungi, even with access to Torpor. You don't really want to be casting Torpor, you just have to occasionally. I'd go as far as to say that the only upgrade to fungi bp in the game for a Shaman is Vindi BP.

[Daldaen]

Yea we had shamans wearing Fungi through PoP (given they were unlucky and didn't win Lunar Fungus Tunic from VT).

Until you were able to cap regeneration through a variety of other items, it kept its value. Even with Torpor and Quiessence.

No stat is really more valuable than HP regen for a shaman unless, as Byrjun states, you need resist. Even then, with a classic 255 resist cap you can pretty easily hit or get close by swapping out other gear (especially with a bard). I'd tend to argue Fungi's 15 regen beats out Vindi BP's 2 + 100 HP/15STA/15Resists. Unless you're in a fight where you need the resists or when your maximum HP absolutely must be up there because the mob you're fighting hits so hard.

In a general raid with trash or a grind group or soloing against mobs that don't summon or do but don't hit like a truck, Fungi will outperform and allow you to cast and do more than Vindi BP will.

[iruinedyourday]

You do not need class attributes to do anything at 60.

.

Period

PERIOD

60 wins fights because of it's level not avoiding one stun fighting 4 green low blue mobs being click dotted to death. :p

[iruinedyourday]

This list is correct, except I'd put Iksars below Barbarians as the worse Shaman race. People don't really seem to consider starting stats for some reason, and Iksar starting stats are really bad compared to the other 3 races. That might not be enough to bury them, but being restricted from certain gear (especially JBB) does. They get some better resist gear choices in Kunark (Scaled Mystic, Stone of Morid, etc), but it's not enough to make up for it.

There's a fix for this, also fixes the black splotches on dark elf armor, dragon wings, evil eyes, etc.

Nothing really "prevents" you from end game soloing, it's just not having certain things makes your life more difficult, and in a really close fight you could lose without access to stun immunity / JBB / whatever.

Shamans take off their fungis? I never do unless A) I need to equip a resist chest for an AE fight, or B) I'm standing in EC and want to equip my Jaundiced Bone BP for vanity. It's really noticeable when I'm not wearing my fungi, even with access to Torpor. You don't really want to be casting Torpor, you just have to occasionally. I'd go as far as to say that the only upgrade to fungi bp in the game for a Shaman is Vindi BP.

I agree with this post almost in entirety. However, the JBB is over valued when people discuss Ikky shaman, it is not better than just 1 more epic click.. JBB becomes a toy at 50 so, ikky IMO (and moreso with velious gear) will be the strongest of all the shamans (if you are a min max nerd - which I am 100% not).

For a level 60 shaman MR/Regen > all other things. You said it yourself, shamans dont take off fungi unless its for vanity reasons (which I happen to think is the most important class based statistic :D the vanity stat, ahh cant get enough vanity, that stat dont cap!).

So I disagree that Ikky is at the bottom, and challenge that it should be at the top!

About the barb shoes, you say there is a fix for this? Is it a patch? is it a local fix? I would love to know! thanks! :D

So in the end troll/ikky I think are the only class based stat that really is valuable at 60 - troll can use JBB which is a fun toy. But MR is more important (however with any class gear at 60 you are well into the area of being safe from death because of an MR related non PVP attack).

Blind is like the only thing that's ever going to kill you, other than stupidity :)

PS what about them barb shoes? fix? omg! :D

Hope this post doesn't rusttle some jimmys (if you think stun is #1 then by all means think that! But it is in my opinion inferior to the vanity stat)

[Esheon]

About the barb shoes, you say there is a fix for this? Is it a patch? is it a local fix? I would love to know! thanks!

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73974

Hit the link for "Texture Repair Project".

[Kender]

Barbie

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/scowls/Shammysquad.jpg

[Daldaen]

I miss times when 4/5 players were non-role/Anon.

It's a shame it's the reverse on this server :/.

[iruinedyourday]

I miss times when 4/5 players were non-role/Anon.

It's a shame it's the reverse on this server :/.

haha It drives me crazy when people are ANON

/who droga 'there are no players in droga'

get there,

there are 15 people in droga

WHO ARE YOU HIDING FROM YOU'RE A BARD!

:P

Keep Calm
&
Turn off Anon

[Kender]

bards are usually up to no good

[Esheon]

Why am I role/anon?

(Name redacted) tells you, "can you come outside and sow/invis me to the lguk ZL?"
You tell (name redacted), "no, I'm in a group"
(Name redacted) tells you, "I'll tip you 5p"
You tell (name redacted), "no, I'm in a group, and besides I'm looting gems worth more than 5p"
(Name redacted) tells you, "come on, don't be a jerk"
/ignore (name redacted)

Now, if I'm not actually in a group, I'm usually not /anon... but as soon as I get that tell saying "come to (insert location)", /anon goes on (and once my druid hits 29, /anon will DEFINITELY be on if I'm in a group).

I can only assume bards go /anon because they're tired of getting blamed for someone else's train :p

[iruinedyourday]

thats fine, but everyone else who isnt a sham/cleric/ench needs to non annon so we can /who contested zone camps ffs plz & thank you :)

the bard, does not need to be anon when camping idol of the thorned -_- takes forever to run out there guyz!

bards are usually up to no good

lmao true

[Daldaen]

Those annoying people are so few and far between.

I play a 60 Druid and Cleric. 99.99% of the time I'm non-Anon/role (only exception being when guildmates are bitching at be about stupid incoherent ideas). Almost every tell I get goes like this:

Person A - Can I get a rez here or Can I get a port from B to C?
Me - No sorry, I'm busy
Person A - Okay thanks anyways, have a good night.

Or I may have time and I'll port them or Rez them.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

I go anon so people don't pester me for spirit of cat.

[Potus]

I go anon so people don't pester me for spirit of cat.

Jokes on you, I want Glamour.

[Byrjun]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v381/scowls/Shammysquad.jpg

Whoa, wonder if that's the same Scowls I knew.

the JBB is over valued when people discuss Ikky shaman, it is not better than just 1 more epic click.. JBB becomes a toy at 50 so, ikky IMO (and moreso with velious gear) will be the strongest of all the shamans (if you are a min max nerd - which I am 100% not).

It's not a toy, it's your primary source of damage if you're not using Puppet Strings. Epic is 1309 damage over 1.5 minutes, JBB does 2958.75 damage over that time. You'll use it at level 60 in Kunark and Velious. It is a serious consideration for Iksar Shamans. The AC/Regen doesn't make up for weak starting stats, lack of stun immunity, and inability to use JBB (and some other stuff, I like stacking the JBBP DS with other Velious DS clickies).

For a level 60 shaman MR/Regen > all other things. You said it yourself, shamans dont take off fungi unless its for vanity reasons

Iksar regen is +2; Fungi regen is +15. They're not very comparable. You have to remember the main advantage of Iksar/Troll regen comes from sitting, that's why Iksar makes much more sense for a Necromancer. As a level 60 Shaman you will never be sitting unless you're memming a spell or full health/mana. +2 standing regen is cool, but it's not worth losing a ton of other important stuff.

So I disagree that Ikky is at the bottom, and challenge that it should be at the top!

You can have that opinion but I strongly think that it's incorrect.

[iruinedyourday]

Whoa, wonder if that's the same Scowls I knew.

It's not a toy, it's your primary source of damage if you're not using Puppet Strings. Epic is 1309 damage over 1.5 minutes, JBB does 2958.75 damage over that time. You'll use it at level 60 in Kunark and Velious. It is a serious consideration for Iksar Shamans. The AC/Regen doesn't make up for weak starting stats, lack of stun immunity, and inability to use JBB (and some other stuff, I like stacking the JBBP DS with other Velious DS clickies).

Iksar regen is +2; Fungi regen is +15. They're not very comparable. You have to remember the main advantage of Iksar/Troll regen comes from sitting, that's why Iksar makes much more sense for a Necromancer. As a level 60 Shaman you will never be sitting unless you're memming a spell or full health/mana. +2 standing regen is cool, but it's not worth losing a ton of other important stuff.

You can have that opinion but I strongly think that it's incorrect.

We disagree :) but thats eq is what you make of it so word! But could you clarify what +2 regen means? its 18 at level 60.

I still believe Iky/troll is on the top tho

[Byrjun]

Erm, I mistyped for some reason. I meant +8. "Regular" standing regen is 4, Iksar/Troll standing regen is 12, difference of 8.

+8 regen isn't worth worse starting stats and losing access to significant gear options. If you think +8 regen is worth it, play a Troll instead since they don't have the disadvantages that an Iksar does (although I'd still take stun immunity and slightly higher stamina over +8 regen). If you just want to play an Iksar because Iksars are cool, then ignore all of this of course.

[Kender]

troll/iksar regen at 60 standing is +8 more than other races. +11 more when sitting

[iruinedyourday]

troll/iksar regen at 60 standing is +8 more than other races. +11 more when sitting

thats only 4 less than a fungi - when sitting, which happens a lot, its definitely a convenience.

Race attributes really when it comes down to it, offer nothing more than a convenience. Frontal stun wont save you, but it is more continent to not get interrupts when spamming spells.

MR matters, but for the most part when your max level your MR is at a good place anyway. But it is nice to get higher.

I think the reality is, that there is no best shaman race, just best races for your play style. :)

If your play style is any of the below:

I want less waiting for regen! Troll
I want less waiting for regen + MR! ikky
I want to spam clickies in corners! Ogre
I want pretty white armor and faster leveling! Barb

[Byrjun]

I think the reality is, that there is no best shaman race, just best races for your play style.

There's definitely a "best race," if you're not interested in min/max then this discussion is not for you. Which is fine, whenever someone asks for racial advice the first thing I say is to play the race that you want to get to level 60 with. This is exactly why I play a Barbarian which I rank as the third worst race; I had an Ogre Shaman a few years ago that I abandoned at level 20.

But like I mentioned a couple posts ago, comparing sitting regen is pointless since you'll never be sitting as a 60 shaman without full health/mana unless you're memming a spell. If you want regen, play a Troll. If you want better stats and frontal stun immunity (which I rank as more important than regen), play an Ogre. If you don't give a shit, play what you want.

[iruinedyourday]

There's definitely a "best race," if you're not interested in min/max then this discussion is not for you. Which is fine, whenever someone asks for racial advice the first thing I say is to play the race that you want to get to level 60 with. This is exactly why I play a Barbarian which I rank as the third worst race; I had an Ogre Shaman a few years ago that I abandoned at level 20.

But like I mentioned a couple posts ago, comparing sitting regen is pointless since you'll never be sitting as a 60 shaman without full health/mana unless you're memming a spell. If you want regen, play a Troll. If you want better stats and frontal stun immunity (which I rank as more important than regen), play an Ogre. If you don't give a shit, play what you want.

MR > all.

But the truth is that MR diff between a veloius ikky and another comparably geared sham will equal the difference of resisting like 1 more spell for every 20 cast on you by blues..

...In practice, that is a terrible terrible bonus.

The stun immunity saving you in solo will be like 1 out of 100 fights (a fight I might add that you weren't paying attention to really cus you were tired and watching your fave ep of star trek). That is a terrible, terrible bonus. (if it literally saves you, as in the reason you didn't die, a lot, then you are doing it wrong and should re-evaluate your strat)

So in my conclusion, there is no racial attribute that isn't anything more than a convenience.

There is no 1 "best" shaman race.

[Conky]

Iksar AC bonus is also worth mentioning, I think people under estimate iksar shamans as a race and regen at 60 also, when you can root rot 4+ mobs out heal most dots and still be able to canni it's a big plus.

[BlkCamel]

Regen is a great bonus and as mentioned always on. Comparing Troll regen vs Fungi though is worthless. Can use both and will be using both if you can. Regen races are the best healers/support, I have pointed this out in some of the other race debates. Frontal Stun Immunity(FSI) is for soloing or raid slowing.

Of course you can solo and raid slow without FSI, but if you are say soloing a summoning mob that regen is not going to outpace his dps. You will have to cast spells(slow,heal,dots, epic) and if you properly put your back to a wall you will be getting the benefit of FSI a-lot more then 1 out of 100. Epic dot is slow, really slow FSI reduces interrupts which allows you to progress to the next spell. All Shaman worth their salt have the next 5+ spells planned out and are just waiting for the previous spell to end to start their next action, we are always busy and have something to do 5 seconds ago. FSI allows us to stay out of a position to die more so then saves us when we were half a second away from purple healing. The point is to stay on top of the mob and your actions and not fall behind or lest you die.

I still would recommend Regen races to any Shaman that does not want to Face-tank the tough stuff in Kunark/Velious, or be the main slower on a raid. But for anyone that does want to do those things go OGRE. I did the above things as a Barb on live so you can do it with any race, but I really did regret not having that FSI, Regen as well but more so FSI.:D

[iruinedyourday]

I would like to know what mob at level 60 you can kill with FSI that you cannot without.

The reason i say 1 out of 100 is because the one time a crucial spell gets broken because of stun, is like 1 out of 100 stuns that you get hit with as a non ogre shaman.
The rest is merely a convenience so you don't have to think about frontal stun timing.

Mobs don't chain stun, so all you have to do is think about it while your fighting them and you'll cast around the stun which comes about once every 45 sec to 1 min.

[BlkCamel]

I would like to know what mob at level 60 you can kill with FSI that you cannot without.

The reason i say 1 out of 100 is because the one time a crucial spell gets broken because of stun, is like 1 out of 100 stuns that you get hit with as a non ogre shaman.
The rest is merely a convenience so you don't have to think about frontal stun timing.

Mobs don't chain stun, so all you have to do is think about it while your fighting them and you'll cast around the stun which comes about once every 45 sec to 1 min.

Like I said can do any mob with any race, I played Barb on Live. I am just saying what seems to you merely a convenience means A-LOT to me. Enough so that I would recommend it to others that want to be able to cast while being hit (ME!).

Troll for looks and regen is a close 2nd to me. I alt'd an Iksar Monk so I know what innate regen means, especially when combined with Fungi, so I don't hate and would think most Shaman would be better off having it. I have much respect for the strength of the Shaman class and readily admit you cannot go wrong with any race but that doesn't mean they are all equal for all play styles.:D

[iruinedyourday]

Like I said can do any mob with any race, I played Barb on Live. I am just saying what seems to you merely a convenience means A-LOT to me. Enough so that I would recommend it to others that want to be able to cast while being hit (ME!).

Troll for looks and regen is a close 2nd to me. I alt'd an Iksar Monk so I know what innate regen means, especially when combined with Fungi, so I don't hate and would think most Shaman would be better off having it. I have much respect for the strength of the Shaman class and readily admit you cannot go wrong with any race but that doesn't mean they are all equal for all play styles.:D

Yea but you say it yourself - it doesn't allow you do something that you cant do without FSI. Which is what I think the most common misconception when people are rolling a shaman and reading these forums.

A lot of people think that an ogre shaman can do all this stuff that another shaman cant, which is just not true.

I suspect the only way you could determine which shaman was the best, would be to have a Casey Jones, who downs the named mobs faster competition. And then whoever wins gets the bragging rights 'downs namdes .2 seconds faster than all other shamans!' :p

[Weltmacht]

Pretty frightening that it's going to take an ogre to explain math to the peasant races, but wowzers the lesser races among us have really fallen behind.

Okay so you're trying to root a mob. Your spell is interrupted. You take another round of combat damage. P.S. it's going to be more than a tick of troll regen.

Multiply that by any number of additional mobs--breaking camps, double/triple+ spawns, etc. Why does this even need to be explained; how far gone is the rest of norrath?

[kruptcy]

Okay so you're trying to root a mob. Your spell is interrupted. You take another round of combat damage. P.S. it's going to be more than a tick of troll regen.

Are ogres immune to interrupts or just stun?

[Daldaen]

Ogres only are immune to interrupts via a bash.

Interrupts via push, spell stuns, GFluxes, etc.... Will interrupt you.

Many times, it's push interrupting you, not a bash. Even with your back against a wall or in a corner.

I know the majority of the times I'm interrupted its on a long cast spell from push regardless of whether my back is in a corner or on a wall.

Bash interrupts are the only one that will cancel a spell immediately. The rest your spell will complete casting them say it was interrupted. So whenever you notice an immediate cancelled spell, it's because of a bash interrupt. It really isn't that frequent. Especially once you get slow on a mob. Then they bash what, every 15-30 seconds and often times miss that bash.

[kruptcy]

Oh I have been bashed all the time, and sometimes stunned by those bashes. I had always thought that ogres were still interrupted by bash they just were immune to the occasional stun from it. This is partially why I prefer trolls so heavily over ogres (that and appearance), but now I may have to reassess if they are completely immune to interrupts from bashes.

[iruinedyourday]

Pretty frightening that it's going to take an ogre to explain math to the peasant races, but wowzers the lesser races among us have really fallen behind.

Okay so you're trying to root a mob. Your spell is interrupted. You take another round of combat damage. P.S. it's going to be more than a tick of troll regen.

Multiply that by any number of additional mobs--breaking camps, double/triple+ spawns, etc. Why does this even need to be explained; how far gone is the rest of norrath?

You're talking about a failed scenario. A one in 20. Unless that happens to you every fight. In which case your playing Eq wrong.

[Weltmacht]

Playing eq wrong is playing a non-ogre. The cool thing is that we can post so ocassionally about how wrong you are with utter, unadulturated correctitude while you froth at the keyboard in a vain attempt to persuade others (and, likely, yourself) that 2+2 does not, in fact, equal four.

Logic might pity you, but the master race of norrath has nary a scruple.

[iruinedyourday]

Playing eq wrong is playing a non-ogre. The cool thing is that we can post so ocassionally about how wrong you are with utter, unadulturated correctitude while you froth at the keyboard in a vain attempt to persuade others (and, likely, yourself) that 2+2 does not, in fact, equal four.

Logic might pity you, but the master race of norrath has nary a scruple.

Chill dude, no need to attack someone for pointing out the obvious. Stop dying when you try to solo and maybe roll a less single player focused class. Try a rogue or something. You might find it more suitable to your play style.

[Wenuven]

Someone may have touched on this (I haven't read all six pages), but I think the biggest thing to consider is that Ogre FSI is effective starting at Level 1 whereas troll/iksar regen doesn't really start to shine until 55+.

For a lot of people, level 1-55 is going to be the major part of their journey. Even at 56-60, I would guess a large fraction of shamans in this range aren't even doing anything difficult enough that any racial bonus is going to play a major role. I know for one if I'm planning on taking down a mob where 2 ticks of regen or a couple stun resists is going to make or break it, I will just bring a friend to help.

I get that this debate has some relevance to an end-game level 60 min/max discussion, but I think y'all are missing the bigger picture outside of that scenario.

[loramin]

I get that this debate has some relevance to an end-game level 60 min/max discussion, but I think y'all are missing the bigger picture outside of that scenario.

Yes! Everyone likes to think that they're going to get to level 60, get Torpor, and then play that character for years after. In reality, a lot will quit before they reach level 50, a lot more before they reach level 60, and still more before they get torpor, ... and even among the ones that do get all that, most are not going to play that character forever, they're going to switch to alts or quit.

So, for most shaman the majority of their Everquest lives is going to be spent pre-60/pre-torpor, and thus Barbarian is arguably the best choice, as being several levels higher is kinda better than the other racial powers (if a 45 toll duels a 50 barbarian, guess who will win?). Also it means not having to spend time working on FV faction, or missing out on tons of good Kunark dungeons.

Troll/Iksar are certainly the next best choice, because they're going to spend the vast, vast majority of their EQ life without Torpor, so regen will be helpful. The ogre's frontal stun immunity just isn't that great leveling up. But at level 60, with Torpor, and especially once Velious comes out, FSI is useful, and you just can't get it any other way, while the Barbarian XP "bonus" and the Troll/Iksar regen have stopped being relevant.

So, at the end of the day it comes down to this: for maximum end-game power, it's Ogre, then Troll/Iksar, then Barbarian. For people who won't play to the maximum end-point, it's the opposite: Barbarian, Troll/Iksar, Ogre.

And since no one can predict how long they will actually play their toon, IMHO the only logical way to pick a race is to just go with what appeals to you.

[Conky]

The way I look at it 95%+ of the time the mob im fighting is not summoning, Im rarely ever getting hit by melee once my camp is established, most camps Im at or farming I have 2+ mobs rooted, more then likely ones a caster and casting a dot on me. I dont remember 1 time that getting stunned resulted in my death while casting gate or torpor, play the class that you enjoy but I think regen is very under estimated at 60.

[fiveeauxfour]

Everything about this thread is why I read the forums.

[Potus]

Someone may have touched on this (I haven't read all six pages), but I think the biggest thing to consider is that Ogre FSI is effective starting at Level 1 whereas troll/iksar regen doesn't really start to shine until 55+.

For a lot of people, level 1-55 is going to be the major part of their journey. Even at 56-60, I would guess a large fraction of shamans in this range aren't even doing anything difficult enough that any racial bonus is going to play a major role. I know for one if I'm planning on taking down a mob where 2 ticks of regen or a couple stun resists is going to make or break it, I will just bring a friend to help.

I get that this debate has some relevance to an end-game level 60 min/max discussion, but I think y'all are missing the bigger picture outside of that scenario.

Mobs don't start bashing until level 6, and even then you really should not be meleeing past level 15 unless you're super twinked.

Shaman mana regen is very similar to Necros, it's dependent upon your HP pool. Regen simply has you recoup mana faster so you have less downtime.

It helps at all levels. FSI is kind of a gimmick that really only helps if you want to solo a difficult Velious mob.

[Wenuven]

Mobs don't start bashing until level 6, and even then you really should not be meleeing past level 15 unless you're super twinked.

I never "plan" to melee as a druid, but there are many times where something is beating on me and I'm trying to get a root off. Most of my deaths could be attributed to not being able to land that root fast enough, whether it was due to an interrupt or a resist.

Are you saying this hardly ever happens as a shaman?

I've never played a shaman on P99 so I honestly don't know, but when I played one during PoP it was a common occurrence.

An extra 3hp/tick while sitting pre-50 is only going to save you like 1% of your total downtime and very unlikely to prevent any deaths in those "oh shit" moments.

[iruinedyourday]

An extra 3hp/tick while sitting pre-50 is only going to save you like 1% of your total downtime and very unlikely to prevent any deaths in those "oh shit" moments.

ya, I never thought to make troll cus I didn't know that sitting at 60 it was 18 - which would be handy. I thought it was more ike 6-7hp a tick range, which is pretty much innefectual I agree even compared to 3 heh but whatever I like my barb. But the troll full plate.. ugh If i knew 18 hps sitting I woulda done it, cus It was a toss up for me between the look of a barb vs the look of a troll. 18 a tick would have likely convinced me! but it doesn't matter, the only thing I am really jealous of, is the full plate look of troll hehe

[Potus]

I never "plan" to melee as a druid, but there are many times where something is beating on me and I'm trying to get a root off. Most of my deaths could be attributed to not being able to land that root fast enough, whether it was due to an interrupt or a resist.

Are you saying this hardly ever happens as a shaman?

I've never played a shaman on P99 so I honestly don't know, but when I played one during PoP it was a common occurrence.

An extra 3hp/tick while sitting pre-50 is only going to save you like 1% of your total downtime and very unlikely to prevent any deaths in those "oh shit" moments.

FSI isn't going to save you in an "oh shit" moment either. Most of your deaths can be attributed to you standing and trying to channel through multiple mobs instead of running.

1% is also lowballing it. You realize that Regeneration is 5hp per tick, right? 3 is pretty significant when you're canni dancing and trying to get mana back as soon as possible.

[Wenuven]

FSI isn't going to save you in an "oh shit" moment either. Most of your deaths can be attributed to you standing and trying to channel through multiple mobs instead of running.

1% is also lowballing it. You realize that Regeneration is 5hp per tick, right? 3 is pretty significant when you're canni dancing and trying to get mana back as soon as possible.

At 3/tick, the max HP you can regen in an hour is 1,800. Thats assuming youre sitting and at <100% hp the entire time.

In a more realistic scenario, you're probably looking at much less than that which at canni2 conversion rates is going to save you an extra 1-2 mins of medding per hour.

So yes, maybe it's more than 1%, but still mostly immaterial.

At 60 it is a much different story. But my whole point was that it doesnt really matter until then.

[iruinedyourday]

heh if were only talking how these racial attributes affect leveling, barb all the way - XP bonus over penalty definitely will net you more XP :)