Druid vs Necro - which one do you want in your group?

[Huck]

So I realize there are dozens of different answer here based where you are, how many in group, what you are killing, raid vs non raid etc.

That being said for just a general group in a dungeon (thinking just non raid scene) - would you rather have a necro or Druid in your group and why?

[Gregor]

Druid is one of the worst group classes in the game so pretty easy answer here. Necro just has to play differently in groups, aka offheal and twitch clerics and enchanters. Also half the dungeons in the game are full of undead so if the necro is good at charming he becomes better then almost everyone in those cases.

There's almost no reason to have a druid over a shaman. Same with ranger over monk or wizard over mage(assuming you have a tank). This is all assuming you have a typical group in a dungeon. This all changes in raids.

[Arterian]

Both are average to below average. Eq is a game where there truly are classes that are better than others.

[Estu]

Druids bring the following to the table:
- Heals
- Snares
- Buffs (DS, HP+AC, Strength, Regen)
- Pulling help in outdoor zones (harmony is great)

Necros bring the following:
- DPS (pet DPS is meh, charmed DPS is great)
- Heals/twitches (these are not amazing IMO; people will talk up twitching a lot but a second healer is probably more effective than a twitcher)
- Snares

I'd say the druid is a better groupmate overall. A necro with a charmed undead pet would overtake the druid in usefulness though.

[pharmakos]

and don't underestimate the power of druid charm, though there are fewer zones in the game where they can fully take advantage of charming.

[Potus]

Necro should never twitch in a group. Should be mezzing and healing. Pet should be doing a ton of damage. Unfortunately Necro heal over times aren't stacking on P99, but on live you could stack the 20/44/54 heals and your tank will never need help from the Cleric.

[Tecmos Deception]

Both are average to below average. Eq is a game where there truly are classes that are better than others.

Both are underrated in groups, imo. Necro is strong as a supplemental group member (i.e. you already have tank, ench/sham, and cleric/torpor), and fits into a lot of unorthodox groups (i.e. no real tank, no real healer, etc) or duos/trios nicely.

Druid is below average in groups AS A WHOLE imo. But there are times when a druid is a solid member of a group: no shaman for regen buffs, no cleric for HP buffs, animals to charm around, outdoor pulling. Damage shields are underrated, especially if you're in a group that doesn't have a shaman slower. Druids suck to have in the group when they are just nuking and snaring and doing spot heals... but they can pull their weight if they get to do some of the other things they can do as well.

[Daldaen]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1297608&postcount=3

That would be my argument for having a Druid in group. A few things have changed with classic patches (like BoRo being bad for efficient damage now), and I've revised my view on snare gauntlets a bit, mainly due to having epic now.

Druid becomes a superb puller when they get to 60 with AOE root. Atleast against mobs without high MR. At the higher end of camps like crypt or Velious camps, mobs can take atleast one 190 DMG root before summoning. As mobs get more HP like in Velious, you can do 2 roots before mobs begin to summon. Or after the first root, you can start using Grasping Roots which has negligible damage you just have to refresh every 30s.

The value of being able to immediately root 4 mobs when they are tightly packing together is huge. Especially in the absence of a bard or enchanter. Even if you have a monk to split, fuck that noise. Takes way too long, wastes my time. Just keep stuff locked on root and break roots with dispels when you are ready for more single mobs.

In zones that are outdoors or have large amounts of room to kite (like Kael), Bonds of Tunare again is huge utility to AE snare and be able to control four mobs. In outdoor zones, Harmony is godly. Easily our best spell available. An unresistable AOE pacify is awesome. It should have a bit bigger range than it does on this server I think though, that's something I need to investigate further.

Once your Druid gets lots of clickies you can continue being a valuable force in a group even when OOM. Especially come Velious:

VP Robe - 250 heal
Velious BP - Group Regrowth
Growth Gloves - 24 DS
Epic - 1650 DoT / 70% Snare for 3 min
Tunare Neck - 30s Root
Velious Wrist/ES Arms - 340 DoT for 1 min

So for absolutely no mana at all you can keep your group SoW'd, regening at 15/tick, tank with 24 DS, mobs taking 89/tick with 70% snare and be healing the MT for 250 per click, like 1250/min for free.

Then with your mana you can keep PotGrove on casters, AE Snare/Root, debuff or DPS or spot heal as necessity comes. Or if you're in a zone with animals you can charm a dire wolf.

That's end-game Druid, but yea.

[toolshed]

Necro should never twitch in a group. Should be mezzing and healing. Pet should be doing a ton of damage. Unfortunately Necro heal over times aren't stacking on P99, but on live you could stack the 20/44/54 heals and your tank will never need help from the Cleric.

By mezz you mean Screaming Terror right?

If all you were spending your mana on was ST and heals - you would be full mana the entire time. Why not spend the extra mana you have on your healer to decrease the length of med breaks? In a grouping situation I do not see the value of the necro spending their mana on DPS since in most full group situations the mobs are dying so quickly (DoTs are out of the question, so you would only be using mana inefficient nukes).

I played a bard and enchanter on live and can say that the necro role is as useful or more useful than either in a group. It's a lot like playing a bard - you can be as lazy or as active as you want to be. It's awesome juggling the hat of OT healer, charm for CC, DPS, and mana-giver.

[Tuljin]

Both are great group classes, its really just a matter of having competent players playing them, and that is the big caveat when people start these discussions. I'd rather have an excellent Druid than a nub Cleric any day of the week. I would rather have an excellent Necromancer than a monk that doesn't have good gear and can't pull well.

Many Clerics who you'll run into do absolutely nothing except for CH. Great clerics will do a lot for CC, pulling, lulling, and of course healing. Druids are great because they get HP/AC and resist buffs just like Cleric, but they also have an awesome high level group regen, DoTs and DS (which adds up to a lot of DPS over time), and a superior CC toolset. They can also charm in many tough zones, though fewer than Necro. Druid is great for pulling and if geared the right way they can get a great HP pool. Also little mentioned on these discussions is the ability to Evac, which in the hands of a skilled player ends up being lots of saved time, something that really can't be quantified/valued. Wildfire is an excellent nuke, and if your Druid is efficient he will have mana to toss in a good nuke once in a while. In Velious Druid gets a group buff that adds 6 to mana regen, with Mask of the Hunter they also get a self regen bonus.

Unfortunately, many people who play Cleric and Druid do absolutely nothing besides heal.

Necro has an excellent CC toolset and all of his skills are very useful for groups. HP and Mana feed are good but were never designed to replace a priests healing ability. Their pets are awesome (especially Emissary vs. caster mobs) and their charmed pets do excellent DPS. The Nec snare is a great spell but its not a true duration snare, which is vastly underrated in dungeons (damage free DPS on running mobs, no runners to cause trains)

Most players on p99 wouldn't even attempt a group without a priest. I think the real question here is "What's better in a group THAT ALREADY HAS A PRIEST IN IT, Necro or Druid."

Last night I was on my 51 Paladin alt in a group with a 51 epic rogue, 52 Druid (no Superior Healing yet) and a 54 enc. The enc had an elemental rogue pet and I was pulling a bunch of the castle after the dropoff. I was tanking 54 Rock Golems and even tanked Stonesoul the Unmoving successfully between my heals, druid heals, and dps. Not to say it wasn't tough, but we did very well. The rest of the mobs weren't really a challenge. We stayed alive, got loot, moved the XP bar, and most of all had fun. Yes, a 51 Paladin tanking 54 rock golems without even Superior Healing.

If you ask me, I like Druid AND Necromancer in group. An awesome crew I had going for a while was Monk, Nec, Dru, Wiz, with the occasional 5th person if they were a friend that wanted to come along. I would pull, CC, and nullify the casters with Wiz while the Dru and Nec were busy being efficient and keeping the wheels greased.

Nec or Dru (sometimes both) with charmed pets and Wiz stunning and getting agro on charm breaks so they can remez. Druid would keep up regen and the only person he had to actively heal is the Monk. DS from the Druid and DoTs from both Dru and Nec for tough warrior mobs. Also, if we really have to lay on the heat for whatever reason Wiz and Dru both nuke.

With the Wizard pulling and nullifying caster threat, there is rarely a big nuke that lands and rarely does the monk get hit with slow or a DoT. Also, the Monk is not taking damage from spells or mobs by not pulling. Caster mobs have such low HP they are complete weaklings when they are on stunlock and have someone with the wherewithal to voluntarily agro them and stare their spells in the face. This saves the Druid tons of mana and removes the need for a CH when the tank gets plowed with an Ice Comet.

These two groups and class combinations are not possible without good players. When you really play with good players on odd classes you really find out what they are capable of. A lot of fun of EQ is not easily plowing through mobs with a min/max group but playing with odd class combinations in challenging dungeons and kicking ass.

So the real question is Druid vs Nec with another non-Druid priest present. You can't really pose this question without this caveat.

Bad Necs and bad Druids give the classes a bad rap, but both are great for groups when played well.

[williestargell]

Getting to/from the dungeon and evacing out of trouble can save you a ton of time when you're not killing mobs. So even if their dps isn't stellar it is relatively ok, you kill for a longer period and get more mobs. Avoiding CR by having backup heals, backup cc, burst dps to kill mobs when too many are in camp, and evac is pretty cool.

Necros can fill alot of those same duties but there's no travel bonus to a necro and a large part of their emergency services only kick in after the group is dead.

[Potus]

By mezz you mean Screaming Terror right?

If all you were spending your mana on was ST and heals - you would be full mana the entire time. Why not spend the extra mana you have on your healer to decrease the length of med breaks? In a grouping situation I do not see the value of the necro spending their mana on DPS since in most full group situations the mobs are dying so quickly (DoTs are out of the question, so you would only be using mana inefficient nukes).

I played a bard and enchanter on live and can say that the necro role is as useful or more useful than either in a group. It's a lot like playing a bard - you can be as lazy or as active as you want to be. It's awesome juggling the hat of OT healer, charm for CC, DPS, and mana-giver.

Charm + Bond of Death line + Heals + Mez + Snares will have you almost OOM the entire time. You'll barely be sitting, it's very casting time intensive. So no, there's no way you'll be FM and definitely not have enough money to waste on super inefficient mana dumps.

What is the healer doing the entire time if they need my mana? There's the lazy player.

[williestargell]

If all you were spending your mana on was ST and heals - you would be full mana the entire time. Why not spend the extra mana you have on your healer to decrease the length of med breaks? In a grouping situation I do not see the value of the necro spending their mana on DPS since in most full group situations the mobs are dying so quickly (DoTs are out of the question, so you would only be using mana inefficient nukes).

Sedulous Subversion gives 150 mana to the cleric at a cost of 400. You'd have to do that 3 times to add up to 1 CH.

Shadow Bond costs all of 10 mana to heal the tank for 600. Do that 2-3 times and then Vexing Mordina to heal yourself. You've used alot less mana, Healed the tank for almost as much, done DPS, gotten all the hp back that you transferred and have more mana than if you'd twitched. It is vastly more efficient to use the mana yourself. You talk about inefficient nukes, and then turn around and do the most mana in-efficient thing in the game by transferring your mana to someone else.

In other words as has been said above - never twitch in groups. The only time you should ever twitch in a group is to hit the druid or wizard so that they have enough mana to evac. Save your twitches for raids.

[kruptcy]

Shadow Bond costs all of 10 mana to heal the tank for 600. Do that 2-3 times and then Vexing Mordina to heal yourself. You've used alot less mana, Healed the tank for almost as much

And it only took over a minute to heal almost as much as a 10 second cheal... or 19 second cheal if we are going to count the time it takes to twitch 3 times before the cleric starts casting.

[pharmakos]

in a group setting with a decent tank the cleric doesn't cast cheal once a minute anyway, soooo

[lecompte]

THISSSSSSSSSSSSSS is what I'm always saying:

When you really play with good players on odd classes you really find out what they are capable of. A lot of fun of EQ is not easily plowing through mobs with a min/max group but playing with odd class combinations in challenging dungeons and kicking ass.

Last really fun adventure I had was me and Spitulski doing The Hole together. Shaman/Ranger. Was a blast, we went in deep, helped some random group kill an epic mob (ranger kill steal by the way -- yes, I'm that cool).

Tuljin. Ranger/Cleric/Shaman/Warrior/Enchanter/Necromancer LF mega fun times >>> Hit me up.

[Oleris]

necro shines at level 60. I can heal for 500 points over 4 ticks and dispel the debuff so it only does 125 damage for me.... for a total of 30 mana. Keeping that spell on a tank can outheal almost any slowed mob in the game. That with pet DPS, mez, root and fast mana regen can help alot.

[Ando]

necro shines at level 60. I can heal for 500 points over 4 ticks and dispel the debuff so it only does 125 damage for me.... for a total of 30 mana. Keeping that spell on a tank can outheal almost any slowed mob in the game. That with pet DPS, mez, root and fast mana regen can help alot.

I recently hit 54 on my Necro and finally ended up duoing with a 55 Pally the other night. Had my Rogue pet DPS and just shadowbond healed the Pally. It was crazy powerful. We were both constantly 70%+ mana and just mowing through dark blue mobs.

[Potus]

You think Necro heal is powerful here, on Live you could stack all your heals. I used to mainheal/mez in Seb groups.

[Teppler]

Both are average to below average. Eq is a game where there truly are classes that are better than others.

Nope. Necro is one of the strongest grouping classes.

Heals.
Best group DD caster.
With a pet can out dps Monks.
Snare.
Mezz.

Twitch is an inefficient waste unless a chanter/cleric/shaman is really under stress. Druid is a below average group mate though.

[Teppler]

Charm + Bond of Death line + Heals + Mez + Snares will have you almost OOM the entire time. You'll barely be sitting, it's very casting time intensive. So no, there's no way you'll be FM and definitely not have enough money to waste on super inefficient mana dumps.

What is the healer doing the entire time if they need my mana? There's the lazy player.

Not unless you're spending mana on nukes. You should have close to full mana with that spell routine you outlined. Mezz/Heals/Snares cost marginal mana. Lich gives necro best mana regen in the game. Charm is casted once every 8-10 minutes or so.

[williestargell]

Best group DD caster.

I like necros but where do you derive this?

[Daldaen]

Not unless you're spending mana on nukes. You should have close to full mana with that spell routine you outlined. Mezz/Heals/Snares cost marginal mana. Lich gives necro best mana regen in the game. Charm is casted once every 8-10 minutes or so.

You're dreaming if you think charm lasts for 8-10 minutes regularly.

Even a 60 charming a high 40s mob, will have occasional 30s breaks and regular 3-4 minute breaks. Especially if you are grouping without a shaman/Mage who is maloing and a chanter who is tashing.

[Teppler]

I like necros but where do you derive this?

With lich they have the best mana regen in the game. They can nuke more frequently. With deflux they can nuke fast and also regain hp drained from lich/shadow bond. In groups the bond of death line won't be as useful but you can add some serious dps with deflux/incerate bones/undead dd line of spells.

[Teppler]

With necros having lich + undead nukes + charmed pets they are often the best consistent dps by far in many high end dungeons.

[pharmakos]

and if they accidentally overnuke and get agro they can feign death

[Crawdad]

The problem, it seems to me, is that both of these are the "utility" priest and caster classes. Jack-of-all-Trade classes don't shine as much when required to fill a niche in a full group. This makes them great solo/duo/trio classes, but not a lot to do in a six man.

In a full group, however, I'd prefer the Druid, assuming we're not fighting Undead. Necros have a wider array of abilities and so in a full group will not be able to play up to all their strengths as well. Druids are still going to bring a unique ability (travel aid) that probably isn't being filled by a min-max'd six man group.

The group makeup is probably just as important as asking Druid or Necro, though.