Can someone please explain raid drama...?

[Rangerdown]

As someone who played high end on live, and was a raid leader for many years, I understand wanting to be "the best" and all.... but holy cow. This game is 15 years old, and this server has been in kunark for a couple of years. Why are a dozen guilds stacked up all poopsocking the same dragon on a sunday night just trying to be the first to engage, and than bitching at each other that this is an invalid fte and soandso should be suspended and blah blah blah? Why have yous not worked out a guild rotation on this stuff? Ive read the class C / class R / ffa stuff but why such a half measure? Is it really that hard just to say "ok guild A gets sev this spawn. Guild B gets it next spawn. Guild C gets Trak this week. Guild D gets Venril Sathir, guilds x and y are a tier up and get to alternate vp spawns" etc...? I seem to recall that was the type of system on karana server back in the day.

Its not like any of the top guilds are going to be undergeared for vellious at this point, so whats the fuss all about? Do you enjoy poopsocking and rule lawyering? Why does it seem that all the raiders on blue are 12 years old? Why do GMs not just banish everyone who cant get along to red? :-P

And a question for folks on red: hows the sportsmanship over there these days? Google tells me the top guild is the type of people who gank you on your final (triggered) epic fight so their alts can have your epic. (Aka theyd rather grief you than have any competition). Still the case or are things improving?

[G13]

It's called insecurity sir

When you fail at life you turn to pixels

The Poopsock/Batphone "game" is unhealthy addiction to pixels

[Thulack]

because there are atleast 12 guilds that "are capable" of killing raid mobs. no one really wants to wait 4-5 months to see each mob. And a few guilds don't want to share mobs with people period. Dev's, GM's here grew up on non rotation servers so they feel a rotation is a pussy way to go about playing EQ.

[G13]

because there are atleast 12 guilds that "are capable" of killing raid mobs. no one really wants to wait 4-5 months to see each mob.

Should open a fresh box and start with classic only

Server is pushing 1200+ now a day

[loramin]

Why are a dozen guilds stacked up all poopsocking the same dragon on a sunday night just trying to be the first to engage, and than bitching at each other that this is an invalid fte and soandso should be suspended and blah blah blah?

In part, for the same reasons as on live: because there is only X pieces of loot to go around and Y people who want them. Supply, demand, all that good stuff.

The server's age is a huge part of the issue also. Live servers had Kunark for what, six months? It's been closer to six years here. During that time on live a number of expansions came out, each with new content for raiders. Here, everyone is stuck doing the same thing because there is nothing else to do.

Why have yous not worked out a guild rotation on this stuff?

Well, on live some servers did rotations and some didn't. This is a server that didn't. Again, it has to do with the massive pile up of raiders. Let's say there are ten guilds killing mob X for loot Y. X spawns once every two weeks, and drops a Y every other time, so basically the server gets 1 Y a month, 12 a year.

Now each of those guilds has five people who want a Y. Keep in mind that people play alts, so just because they got a Y in the past doesn't mean they don't want one now. So there's 50 people who want a Y, 12 Y's a year. If everyone joins a rotation then the last person in line gets their Y in just over 4 years from now. If no one new joins the server, and no one starts a new alt.

Do you want to be the guy waiting 4 years for a piece of virtual loot, or do you want some measure of your effort and "skill" to factor in to the equation? The current mess of a raid scene, as bad as it is, at least allows people some measure of control over their virtual fate, vs. getting in a line that you won't make it to the front of for years.

Plus if you think this is bad, you should have seen it before. One guild basically dominated the entire server, so most guilds have only just recently gotten their first chance at major raid targets.

Its not like any of the top guilds are going to be undergeared for vellious at this point, so whats the fuss all about? Do you enjoy poopsocking and rule lawyering? Why does it seem that all the raiders on blue are 12 years old? Why do GMs not just banish everyone who cant get along to red? :-P
The red banishment thing has been suggested many times, with no success ;). As for insulting your fellow players, at the end of the day they just want to play EverQuest, and raid targets/loot are a major part of EverQuest. You evidently want to play EverQuest too, right?

[loramin]

Server is pushing 1200+ now a day

Live servers got to a higher population than that before they got split. More importantly, the people running this server have (so far at least) shown zero interest in any new servers, except a Sullon Zek-esque server sometime after Velious (or a new blue server someday after ALL of Velious, and every patch up until Luclin, is finished).

[G13]

Live servers got to a higher population than that before they got split. More importantly, the people running this server have (so far at least) shown zero interest in any new servers, except a Sullon Zek-esque server sometime after Velious (or a new blue server someday after ALL of Velious, and every patch up until Luclin, is finished).

If you turned Red Blue and made it classic only there would 500+ on a night

Easy

Red is a failed experiment

[Wiery]

Live servers got to a higher population than that before they got split.

While I see a lot people mentioning this and it is true to an extent, there was however, a lot more parity in levels. This server is top heavy, and that's simply due to it being in Kunark for years. Half the server is raid ready, but back in live there was a much smaller ratio of raiding toons. I am curious to see the population when Velious launches and old players come out of exile.

[loramin]

Red is a failed experiment

Don't let Lord Derubael hear you say that! ;)

Seriously though, the people running these servers have said on multiple occaisions that they have no interest in having two blue servers and no red server. Red might someday become the Teams server, but otherwise, based on what the GMs have said, I don't think it's going anywhere even if it's population dips sub-100 (remember, both servers had a very low population in the early days, and the devs were fine with leaving them up).

The only way we're getting a new Blue server is:

A) when all of Velious, and every patch up until Luclin, is completed, and the devs start a fresh blue server that actually advances at the proper speed (per the original timeline)
B) MAYBE if blue's population gets in to the high 2ks the GMs MIGHT give us a second server ... but they haven't gone so far as to say that yet

[Gregor]

If you turned Red Blue and made it classic only there would 500+ on a night

Easy

Red is a failed experiment

[Clark]

Pixelquesters gonna pixelquest.

[Tewaz]

Red is now filled with a bunch of neckbeards that don't raid anymore and only want to kill each other. Basically, it is set so new players have no way of getting into the game like they could through gearing up in Nihilum.

Your choices are grind to 60 while getting ganked and then have no guild to join on red or wait 4 years for one drop for your epic on blue.

Both shit options that need to be completely rethought by the staff like...

Blue needs 10 times as many pops.
Red needs most of its population perma banned.

[Laugher]

Red is a failed experiment

With a picture of Charles Bronson as your avatar good sir I'll have you know that the former <Charles Bronson> of the red server is disappointed in your lack of PvP and PvP support.

[G13]

With a picture of Charles Bronson as your avatar good sir I'll have you know that the former <Charles Bronson> of the red server is disappointed in your lack of PvP and PvP support.

I wanted to like Red. I tried Red. Red is nothing more than "pras" every time there is a serverwide PVP message. 100 people logged on a night typing "pras" in /ooc is not a fun server. It's a dead box.

If the community on Red grew up and came together to set some standards for their box, maybe things would change. It's not going to change though. Read their forums. Red is a doomed box.

In all honesty Blue is even worse. Rule lawyering is worse now than ever before. The young lawyers are now middle aged lawyers, arguing over the same semantics, content and crappy game design. People are coming up with ridiculous tactics to get their coveted FTE message and magical pixels.

There is a large influx of new players on Blue right now. This is actually a good opportunity for the Devs to expand on their p1999 Classic EQ experience. Build their brand.

They could start a new Blue server to welcome all these new players to the p1999 experience. A new timeline to give these people "classic Everquest" without having to deal with the state of the end game currently on Blue.

It's time to put Red to pasture. Make way for Blue 2.0.

[Whirled]

I wanted to like Red. I tried Red. Red is nothing more than "pras" every time there is a serverwide PVP message. 100 people logged on a night typing "pras" in /ooc is not a fun server. It's a dead box.

If the community on Red grew up and came together to set some standards for their box, maybe things would change. It's not going to change though. Read their forums. Red is a doomed box.

In all honesty Blue is even worse. Rule lawyering is worse now than ever before. The young lawyers are now middle aged lawyers, arguing over the same semantics, content and crappy game design. People are coming up with ridiculous tactics to get their coveted FTE message and magical pixels.

There is a large influx of new players on Blue right now. This is actually a good opportunity for the Devs to expand on their p1999 Classic EQ experience. Build their brand.

They could start a new Blue server to welcome all these new players to the p1999 experience. A new timeline to give these people "classic Everquest" without having to deal with the state of the end game currently on Blue.

It's time to put Red to pasture. Make way for Blue 2.0.

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/science/bender-applause_medium.gif

[Kuldiin]

Instancing raid zones (as they do on other servers such as THF) would fix it, but it wont be done because its not 'classic', and it's much more fun having to wait months for a shot at a mob that spawns once a week.

I only play here as its the best server for standard grouping, when I want to raid I go elsewhere. Unfortunately the other servers are all multiboxing hell holes so theres a minimum of grouping to be had.

[Aveenia]

I have got to stop coming here & reading these threads. I just started a month ago here & this sounds so depressing it makes me wonder why I'm playing at all if the server is this messed up.

I am going to be keep playing but this does sound awfully discouraging to me as a newish player here.

[Derubael]

I have got to stop coming here & reading these threads. I just started a month ago here & this sounds so depressing it makes me wonder why I'm playing at all if the server is this messed up.

I am going to be keep playing but this does sound awfully discouraging to me as a newish player here.

Don't get discouraged. There will always be a vocal minority who is unhappy no matter what - we could open a new server and tailor it just for them and they'd still find something to complain about.

That being said, the raid scene was completely dominated by 1 or 2 guilds for a very long time. If you weren't in those guilds you didn't see much content. Now that we have a tiered raid system, everyone sees content. Granted, in Class R you get far less mobs than the competitive class, but you also get to relax and kill your targets at your leisure.

Another important thing to remember is that Velious will have so many raid targets that everyone will get a chance to see content. The most "exclusive" content is still likely going to be killed by the "hardcore raiders", but that's the way it was for most servers on live as well. I don't think anyone rotated sleepers tomb, lol :)

There's so many targets in Velious that if you aren't getting your fill, you're either lazy or greedy. Temple of Veeshan all by itself has more raid targets than all of classic and Kunark combined. So that will alleviate a lot of the "raid scene woes" we're experiencing now.

It's definitely better than it used to be, though - everyone can see Kunark and Old World content without having to join an FFA situation. I think that's something we've wanted for a long time, but were hoping it'd come along naturally without our intervention. Also,

Dev's, GM's here grew up on non rotation servers so they feel a rotation is a pussy way to go about playing EQ.

I think this gives a wildly inaccurate impression of the staff here. Sirken feels somewhat like this, but I know that for me personally I would rather be a "class r" guy than a "class c" guy. I just recognize that there's a need for both schools of thought, and that the people in "class c" are going to get more targets because they put more time/effort in. As long as everyone gets an opportunity to participate in content I'm happy, and that's what we have now.

tl;dr raid scene is doing fine, velious will make it much better

[Aveenia]

Yeah I don't ever see myself in a 'C' guild. Too stressful, but I do hope to raid one day if not on Aveenia perhaps on a cleric I have yet to level. I am trying not to get discouraged, and as such I should stop reading threads like this, no matter how bored I am medding while I solo.

[Swish]

Yeah I don't ever see myself in a 'C' guild. Too stressful..

While I may do my best to recruit for red, I do play on both... and I hate the Class C raiding scene, always did. Happy to be "casual scum" by their standards.

If not for Class R I'd probably only have seen Hate/Fear/Sky on blue, and none of the rarer dragons :p

[Xorekle]

Derubael is correct, I cringed a little reading the high end raiding situation, as I've been there done that, but velious should correct most of it. Before velious I can only think of a handful of "worthy" targets for gear farming overall, which leaves most of the raiders I'm assuming bored. Within that, I'd say there's only 2 or 3 tiers of raiding currently too.

Original Raid Targets (5):

Lady Vox (7 days)
Lord Nagafen (7 days)
Plane of Fear: Cazic Thule (7 days)
Plane of Hate: Maestro (3 days)
Plane of Hate: Innoruuk (7 days)

Original Raid-level Zones (3):
Plane of Fear
Plane of Hate
Plane of Sky (7 days?)

Kunark Raid Targets (7):

Chardok: Royals (2 hours)
Dreadlands: Gorenaire (7 days)
Emerald Jungle: Severilous (7 days)
Karnor's Castle: Venril Sathir (7 days)
Old Sebilis: Trakanon (3 days)
Skyfire Mountains: Talendor (7 days)
Timorous Deep: Faydedar (7 days)

Kunark Raid Zones (1):
Veeshan's Peak (7 days?)

Total, that's 4 major raid zones, and 12 major raid targets/nights I'd consider, pre-velious; that's not really all that many for 1200+ concurrent players. Even if you say each one of those targets currently requires 50 people to engage (which it shouldn't), and you were to somehow, evenly distribute it; so that only one person, raided one target per week, that's enough for 700 people to hit one target per week. Most people would be pretty upset with that arrangement too; as only hitting one target per week, your chances of getting loot in a 50 person engagement is low, and chances are between epics, and gear, you need/want multiple loots.

I'm missing a lot of the minor raid targets, but even including those, you're only going to make a subset of people happy, and there's probably no more than 30 or 40, and that's being generous.

Top that off, I can't think of any high end kunark quested sets that don't require raiding; meaning the only high end gear is pretty much farming group camps, cultural crafted sets, or raids.

Most of the above raids are also on a 7 day timer; which even with the enhanced spawns, is not often enough for most raid guilds.

Compare the above to Velious, major targets (15):

Cobalt Scar: Kelorek`Dar (7 days?)
Dragon Necropolis: Zlandicar (3 days)
Icewell Keep: Dain Frostreaver IV (7 days)
Kael Drakkel: Derakor the Vindicator (8 hours)
Kael Drakkel: King Tormax (7 days)
Kael Drakkel: The Avatar of War (5 days)
Plane of Growth: Tunare (7 days)
Plane of Mischief: Bristlebane (7 days)
Skyshrine: Lord Yelinak (7 days)
Temple of Veeshan: Dozecar (3 days?)
Temple of Veeshan: Vulak 'Aerr (3 days?)
Velketor's Labyrinth: Velketor the Sorcerer (3 days)
Wakening Land: Wuoshi (7 days)
Western Wastes: Klandicar (3 days)
Western Wastes: Sontalak (2 days)

And more importantly, major zones (10)
Icewell Keep
Kael Drakkel
Plane of Growth
Plane of Mischief
Skyshrine
Sleeper's Tomb
Temple of Veeshan: Halls of Testing (East Wing)
Temple of Veeshan: West Wing
Temple of Veeshan: North Wing
Western Wastes: Dragons

This means there more targets, and more zones to raid in velious alone, and the Kunark raid targets will still keep everyone busy since epics won't be outdated, and won't go away.

I don't think the highest of guilds in the raiding scene will go away, but the average person's raid experience should get much better. With nearly twice as many targets, and three times as many zones; there should be no shortage of raid targets anymore.

Also the entry experience for most guilds in Velious is MUCH better as most of the lower level raid zones, or targets, respawn on a much faster table, giving them a lot more to hit. Halls of Testing in ToV for instance is nearly impossible to keep clear. Respawns in Growth and Mischief are pretty quick. Respawns of the West Wing of ToV are pretty quick. There's a few cycled/triggered raid events. There's several smaller raid targets I didn't include above, much more than you find in Kunark. Skyshrine, Kael, and Icewell also have very low respawn timers, and all drop nice gear sets.

Which brings two other points up, Velious has several high end gear sets that can be obtained through a combination of high end grouping and raiding, with low respawn timers on most of it, allowing for very little competition overall. Second, for the lower end guilds and players especially, there's several group targets, or zones in velious that can easily become a "raid night" for them, as it'd otherwise be very hard for all but the best geared groups to hold that zone. Siren's Grotto, Tower of Frozen Shadow, and Crystal Caverns come to mind immediately. Overall, I think the low, mid, and high-end grouping/raiding scene in Velious will be far better than whatever you're experiencing now in Kunark.

[gildor]

I have got to stop coming here & reading these threads. I just started a month ago here & this sounds so depressing it makes me wonder why I'm playing at all if the server is this messed up.

I am going to be keep playing but this does sound awfully discouraging to me as a newish player here.

I agree Aveenia..I just started last week, came to forums to read up and ask a few quesitons..and WOW drama..

I remember some drama on Cazic back in the day but I dont know if I want to go through the leveling process to get caught up in all that..hmm

[Xorekle]

Also it should be noted, that velious expands the raiding tiers quite a bit too. Right now, I'm imagining you only have 2 or 3 raiding tiers. Your entry level tier, barely capable of raiding, getting their feet wet, tackling the early dragons, Chardok royals, Vox/Naggy.

Your mid-level tier that can easily take down those targets, keep Fear/Sky/Hate clear, and want to break Veeshan's Peak, and start tackling the deities CT/Inny.

Your high-end tier that downs Cazic/Inny and clears VP.

In velious, even your VP capable guilds now (Tier 3ish), won't be able to take down the North Wing of ToV, or Avatar of War, or Sleeper's Tomb on day 1.

Velious easily adds an additional raiding tier, if not two or three to the mix, allowing a more tiered progression, and helping to prevent the current crowding of Tier 2/Tier 3 you have now.

[Visual]

OP might want to look into one of the #gm command servers. You can summon items to your heart's content without all the pesky competition.

[Bodek]

Just half (or even third) the respawn time of raid mobs. It's not "classic" but neither is years of Kunark to Velious. Sounds like there are too many lvl 50+ players with not enough content. Then, release Velious and resume normal respawn timers.

[Xorekle]

See my post on Luclin too, with a very controlled release of Luclin and Velious, I doubt we'd ever run out of post 50 content.
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163256

[Juntsie]

Juntsie offer raid dispute resolution services at reasonable price, but when he get sad when dispute arise, but understand why dey happen. Wise Honorable GM Duraebel offer many valid argument about raid dispute but he omit most important cause:

Male Raider Want Moar Pixel to Impress Females

Most raider try to deny this cuz embarrassed but it truth. Dey tink dat magical raid loot cause scarce EQ female to admire dem, and want to exchange intimidate communications. Dey think glowing big sword going to make female tink, "OOOOOH, I wonder what is in pants!!!!!!" Dis true to certain extent, but only cuz male raider give female item for free.

So, Juntsie offer conclusive resolution to raid dispute: change all raid-quality loot to naked placeholder and blunt staff, so raider look like level 1 character. No one want to raid anymore if dis happen. It show dat raid just about vanity to impress females. Juntsie theory proven correct.

[lecompte]

So, Juntsie offer conclusive resolution to raid dispute: change all raid-quality loot to naked placeholder and blunt staff, so raider look like level 1 character.
... That would be awesome. Nevermind blunt staff... I wanna be the best geared, nekkid punching ranger on the server.

[Whirled]

Hahaha^ brilliant.. make the AE breath weapon destroy gear in inventory like in D&D

[Juntsie]

Juntsie realize idea so good he make formal post about it on main chat forum. Dis is how we solve raid dispute. Raid dispute damage community. It even damage da very thing raider try to get - female play on server. Mention of raid dispute, as evidenced in this thread, nearly make scarce female not want to bash anymore. JUNTSIES THEORIES ARE CLEAR WELL-SETTLED TRUTHS.

[Neno]

SoV will be owned by 1-2 guilds while the rest sit in kael/pog farming armor. The two top guilds here not only have the rosters to kill everything they also have enough BiS alts to camp out at every target that racing for spawns is going to consist of which guild can load faster. Class R will never see loot from NTOV/ST/AoW/Tunare/SoV Kings/Zlandi.

If you think there will be enough content in the expansion for everyone than you never played during SoV and you are also underestimating what multiple years of RoK has done to this server. The class C guilds here are going to be walking into SoV with more fire power and more knowledge than FoH or AL had and those two guilds shit all over SoV very quickly with the exception of the AoW. Every major raid encounter will be on farm mode within 2-3 months.

At least class R will finally be able to step into VP. But really who the hell wants to just sit around farming bottom rung SoV armor and VP weps when they could be rocking Primals and NToV gear? Hopefully a few Class R guilds decide to quit hiding behind the apron and step up to Class C.

[Culkasi]

SoV will be owned by 1-2 guilds while the rest sit in kael/pog farming armor. The two top guilds here not only have the rosters to kill everything they also have enough BiS alts to camp out at every target that racing for spawns is going to consist of which guild can load faster. Class R will never see loot from NTOV/ST/AoW/Tunare/SoV Kings/Zlandi.

If you think there will be enough content in the expansion for everyone than you never played during SoV and you are also underestimating what multiple years of RoK has done to this server. The class C guilds here are going to be walking into SoV with more fire power and more knowledge than FoH or AL had and those two guilds shit all over SoV very quickly with the exception of the AoW. Every major raid encounter will be on farm mode within 2-3 months.

At least class R will finally be able to step into VP. But really who the hell wants to just sit around farming bottom rung SoV armor and VP weps when they could be rocking Primals and NToV gear? Hopefully a few Class R guilds decide to quit hiding behind the apron and step up to Class C.

You very clearly explained in the first two paragraphs why an R guild moving into C won't make any difference for their ability to compete for above mentioned targets and loots

[Swish]

Legacy of account sales for plat (now banned) helped TMO and pals have plenty of raiding alts for every possible occasion.

Lest we forget :p

[Rangerdown]

OP might want to look into one of the #gm command servers. You can summon items to your heart's content without all the pesky competition.

Nah. OP just has to log in to live and rifle through his bank. :-)

Having a couple of people running in circles spamming 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 while 200 people stand around waiting to see who gets the loot piniata is about as competative as playing the lotto. Its really rather silly. The rules are obviously set up so that everyone has an equal chance to win the lotto, so in the long term your gonna get the same number of wins as everyone else anyways. Why bother fighting over something so meaningless?

[Rangerdown]

I agree Aveenia..I just started last week, came to forums to read up and ask a few quesitons..and WOW drama..

I remember some drama on Cazic back in the day but I dont know if I want to go through the leveling process to get caught up in all that..hmm

You two should reroll on red with me. :-P

Blue needs the rathe travel agency. Till than id rather settle raid disputes with sword and spell.

[G13]

Nah. OP just has to log in to live and rifle through his bank. :-)

Having a couple of people running in circles spamming 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 while 200 people stand around waiting to see who gets the loot piniata is about as competative as playing the lotto. Its really rather silly. The rules are obviously set up so that everyone has an equal chance to win the lotto, so in the long term your gonna get the same number of wins as everyone else anyways. Why bother fighting over something so meaningless?

Exactly

Read the Sev thread

That's "competition"

Not