Casinos

[Derubael]

Due to numerous issues resulting from player run casinos and to reflect similar policies enacted on Live during classic, as well as other MMORPG's, we have decided to prohibit the operation, advertisement, or use of "casinos", including, but not limited to, dice rolls, card games, "guessing" games, and any other form of gambling. Please use your best discretion when determining what constitutes "gambling".

We hope that this change will make for a safer trading community and help protect the players on our server. In the future we may add gambling NPC's to provide a safe, server friendly way to gamble here on Project 1999, but for the time being there will be no sanctioned gambling on either server.

Violation of these rules will result in immediate account discipline. There will be no exceptions and no second chances. We will provide a 24 hour grace period from the creation of this post to allow our players to adjust to the new rules.

[Pheer]

does this apply to greengrocer's meat spin?

[Oleris]

Good job!

[Cecily]

Not classic.

[Swindle]

I lobby for a meat only exemption!

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Not classic.

[semvo]

"Classic" roofl

[Tuffpuppy]

I hope one day in the future they are able to return in some form. Adds a unique layer to the server.

[Emile]

It was either this or make bigger ignore lists.

[phacemeltar]

officially underground....

[Nocsucow]

This SERVER is a fucking prison on Planet Bullshit!! In the galaxy of This Sucks Camel Dicks!


jk .... love ya derudawg

[Naprox]

Thank you ;)

[Derubael]

You are very welcome!

We are excited about the possibilities that an NPC run casinos will provide. It will be safer, more reliable, and less of a headache for the staff (cough, me). Unfortunately player run casinos will never be allowed here again, but we feel the addition of NPC run casinos will make people quickly forget that they ever missed player run casinos to begin with!

It's a good day on p99 ;)

[Bboboo]

NPC casinos sounds like a devious plan to delete more PP on the server.

[Derubael]

NPC casinos sounds like a devious plan to delete more PP on the server.

I <3 anything that takes PP out of the economy. Nilbog and I are big fans of fighting inflation.

[Nitsude]

I <3 anything that takes PP out of the economy. Nilbog and I are big fans of fighting inflation.

Derubael and Nilbog 2016

America needs you

[Orruar]

I have a couple questions regarding this new rule.

Is all gambling illegal?

If myself and a friend want to roll EQ craps for plat, are we allowed to?

What if we want to roll dice while wagering items (my manastone vs his CoF or something like that)?

What if we have an item drop and rather than sell and split the cash like we would normally do, we want to gamble against each other to see who gets it?

Will this rule lead to crypt groups being banned for gambling over that hiero drop?

[Tpar]

Shhhh! Next thing they will think of is an income tax!

[Derubael]

I have a couple questions regarding this new rule.

Is all gambling illegal?

If myself and a friend want to roll EQ craps for plat, are we allowed to?

What if we want to roll dice while wagering items (my manastone vs his CoF or something like that)?

What if we have an item drop and rather than sell and split the cash like we would normally do, we want to gamble against each other to see who gets it?

Will this rule lead to crypt groups being banned for gambling over that hiero drop?

Use your best judgement. This is mostly aimed at Casinos, though any form of gambling does fall under it's domain.

Obviously rolling for an item that dropped isn't gambling.

[Nocsucow]

hah you casinos are about to get sent 1099 norrath version


derubael the norrath H&R block ?

[Cyph]

Thanks Derubael and the rest of the crew. Less time chasing up the scammers (who ruined this for everyone) and more time focusing your efforts on other things :)

[Fountree]

Add another restriction to the by now gigantic list of rules on P99. Not classic and not fun. I've never been scammed at a player-run "casino" in years and I've played a ton.

I am for the idea of an NPC run casino though...

Omg just had a thought...make it in that Highkeep gambling area !! :)

[MilanderTruewield]

They would love to roll out new content. However, they have to waste their time over petitions created by people who advertise that if you roll a dice and get 666, you win big! and then /q when they actually roll it. Banning player-run casinos makes for less bullshit for Deru, Sirken and other guides to have to sort thru, therefore allowing for other things. Also, new content is brought to you primarily by the developers (Alunova, Aeolwind, etc) which means that the good things that the GM/Guides are doing in no way affects the speed by which you gain new pixels.

[Olscratch]

Yay for less player interaction, more automated NPCs. This should take a big workload off no one.

Server just got a lot less fun for us gamblers, and got more fun for no one.

Since we're adding in unclassic features like dev-made NPC casinos maybe instead of having to deal with waiting and port scammers (people who don't tip, porters who port people to the wrong places) we could just get a rock we click that takes us where we want to go.

[Olscratch]

They would love to roll out new content. However, they have to waste their time over petitions created by people who advertise that if you roll a dice and get 666, you win big! and then /q when they actually roll it. Banning player-run casinos makes for less bullshit for Deru, Sirken and other guides to have to sort thru, therefore allowing for other things. Also, new content is brought to you primarily by the developers (Alunova, Aeolwind, etc) which means that the good things that the GM/Guides are doing in no way affects the speed by which you gain new pixels.

1 casino has been banned, and I'd imagine it took all of about 5 minutes of work.
If casinos we're a guild they'd have a cleaner record than half of P99 guilds. Sad day. Great day for propaganda victory.

[Derubael]

We are sorry for ruining your Everquest gambling experience. We realize that at this point in time the number of players we will lose due to this change may just vacate the box completely, but we vow to continue on despite the odds.

[Orruar]

Use your best judgement. This is mostly aimed at Casinos, though any form of gambling does fall under it's domain.

Obviously rolling for an item that dropped isn't gambling.

"Use your best judgement" isn't really the best way to go about making new rules is it? Rules should be specific and allow for little player interpretation, or else you'll end up spending more time trying to enforce the vague rule than you ever did on the few scammers.

The point I was trying to get at is that all the things I listed were in essence the same. If you ban casinos (people using /random to take a chance at winning money/item), you have to ban rolling on loots as well. If you try to ban one without banning the other, you'll have to twist your logic to fit the inconsistency. I suspect this is why you say you want to leave it up to us, because there is no way you can be specific about what is allowed and what isn't without exposing that inconsistency.

[Grimjaw]

I hope one day in the future they are able to return in some form. Adds a unique layer to the server.

EVE is a great game, they appreciate player-made content instead of stomping it out. They also spend zero time hunting down and worrying about scammers. if you get scammed in a sandbox mmo its your fault.

[Olscratch]

We are sorry for ruining your Everquest gambling experience. We realize that at this point in time the number of players we will lose due to this change may just vacate the box completely, but we vow to continue on despite the odds.

Well thanks for apologizing and not being a **** about it.

[Derubael]

The point I was trying to get at is that all the things I listed were in essence the same. If you ban casinos (people using /random to take a chance at winning money/item), you have to ban rolling on loots as well. If you try to ban one without banning the other, you'll have to twist your logic to fit the inconsistency. I suspect this is why you say you want to leave it up to us, because there is no way you can be specific about what is allowed and what isn't without exposing that inconsistency.

That's not what is being outlined here. If you can't tell the difference between gambling at a 'casino' or playing a game of chance for potential profit with another player, and rolling on an item that dropped off an NPC, you are going to have a very hard time - and that has nothing to do with the casinos getting banned.

I know what you are doing, and you are welcome to do it, but I'd highly recommend not testing us on this. It's pretty simple cut and dry. Casinos are now gone.

[zforrestal]

To whom it may concern,
With the recent news on the ban of Casinos, I am deeply saddened. As some of you may know, I am Tookie and I run a very high standard casino. I have been around since Nov. 27th, 2009 running a casino and have never run into a problem with the legitimacy of my casino. The sole reason I played EQ was to provide fun entertainment for everyone through running a casino, now this has been taken away due to the actions of a few "scammers". I fully understand both sides of the scale, and I still disagree on the matter. Antonican Gaming Commission was the 500th p99 guild, with the idea of putting all casinos under 1 reputable name.

I role play my ass off to provide fun, a good experience, to do free giveaways and bring something unique to EQ. So why are the actions of others prohibiting me from being able to provide this? Yet guilds disregard/break GM and player set rules, over and over again but we don't see full guilds getting banned for ruining your experience into the end game raid scene.

In this sense I feel discriminated against, I can't play the game how I'd like because of the actions of others and I'm being punished for it. Same thing when people say "Casinos should be at T2, or Shady because of all the Spam".. it's Rosa Parks all over again... You can just as easily TURN OFF random roll text as it is for me to walk to T2, this is PURE discrimination and I can not justify that. You don't like to gamble then don't otherwise get on with how you like to play the game, and I'll continue to play how I'd like to play.

Gambling at a casino for trusting someone to do an xfer for you that you don't fully trust, is AT YOUR OWN RISK, and that's how casinos should be handled. The GM's shouldn't be concerned with this issue, if you play at a casino and they "scam" you, well take note of it and don't play there again, same goes for people who say they'll do an xfer for you and run away with your stuff. I think you lose more players due to the end game raid scene and how the guilds handle that than you lose to "scammers".

To sum this up, I play EQ to provide this service so people can have some fun without the support of the players, I couldn't do any of the free giveaways or raffles, the things that are a true good service, without running a casino. So I'm asking you to re think your current ban on casinos. I already started and would be willing to be the representative of a reputable Casino guild. I'd really like to continue doing what I do best instead of uninstalling.

[Derubael]

Casino's will never return.

If it was just an issue with scamming and nothing else, Casino's wouldn't be banned. We have our own reasons beyond that for removing them. Suffice it to say we've decided they are gone and won't be coming back.

[zforrestal]

May I ask what these "Numerous issues are" because it seems like it's just a scamming issue that the GM's don't want to deal with.. and I don't blame you not wanting to hear people whining about a casino not paying out. But I can't think of what these "numerous issues" are.I can't see how my casino causes issues.. so how are all casinos causing an issue to warrent a ban on them?




Edit: This is very discriminating still none the less and doesn't seem right.

Re Edit: The end game raid scene causes more issues than any casino ever will...... ever...........

More Edits: Also what is stopping people from announcing they are hosting a casino but NEVER accepting any bets... Is it the action of collecting a bet and paying out thats considered banned or will even announcing it get you banned?

[Orruar]

Casino's will never return.

If it was just an issue with scamming and nothing else, Casino's wouldn't be banned. We have our own reasons beyond that for removing them. Suffice it to say we've decided they are gone and won't be coming back.

So not only do you refuse to give specifics on what is allowed and what isn't, which is akin to congress writing laws that nobody is allowed to read, except for the title, but now you refuse to give the reasons why the law was written in the first place? Awesome transparency there. Are we really at the point where we have too many people playing on the server and so the solution is to do everything in order turn people off?

[Olscratch]

Does that mean you think we're RMTing? You think casinos (and all gamblers? "including, but not limited to, dice rolls, card games, "guessing" games, and any other form of gambling") are RMT'ing based on no evidence and pure suspicion. That's nice.

Cause 5k max bet surrounded by people watching you is super efficient RMT delivery.

How is monitoring all gambling with account suspensions and bans less work for GMs?

[zforrestal]

You have just as many people arguing for the allowance of player run casinos as are opposed... A simple.. "Gamble at your own RISK' rule should be the implement not a Ban... Gamble at your OWN RISK relieves the GM's from having to deal with any issues regarding player run Casinos.. why can't you just say that please...

[Tenlaar]

ITT: casino operators get super mad and demand answers!

Me reading this thread: Discrimination? Lulz. WHAT? ROSA PARKS ALL OVER AGAIN?

http://www.brightfutura.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/MartianHeadExplodes.gif

[zforrestal]

ITT: casino operators get super mad and demand answers!

Me reading this thread: Discrimination? Lulz. WHAT? ROSA PARKS ALL OVER AGAIN?

http://www.brightfutura.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/MartianHeadExplodes.gif

You'd get mad if you were discriminated against too, don't be a bully please.

On that note too... casinos get a Ban.. but they they'll allow a guild inviting erudites only under a certain guild tag being blatantly racist that seems fair.

[Tenlaar]

By the way, thanks for banning casinos guys.

[Orruar]

How are we supposed to use our own judgment on what constitutes gambling (as per Derubael) if we are not told the aspects of gambling that caused them to ban it in the first place (as per Derubael)? The logical incoherence on display here is staggering.

[Tenlaar]

You'd get mad if you were discriminated against too, don't be a bully please.

I think you deserve to be bullied for comparing yourself to Rosa Parks. I mean, damn brah. Come on.

[Tenlaar]

what constitutes gambling

gam·ble
ˈgambəl/
verb
gerund or present participle: gambling

1.
play games of chance for money; bet.
"she was fond of gambling on cards and horses"
synonyms: bet, place/lay a bet on something, stake money on something, back the horses, game;
informalplay the ponies
"he started to gamble more often"

Does that help?

[Fiyero]

So not only do you refuse to give specifics on what is allowed and what isn't, which is akin to congress writing laws that nobody is allowed to read, except for the title, but now you refuse to give the reasons why the law was written in the first place? Awesome transparency there. Are we really at the point where we have too many people playing on the server and so the solution is to do everything in order turn people off?

Pretty sure more people hated casinos than liked them, so I doubt this is going to be a huge dent in server population.

It was at GM discretion on live as to whether Casinos were allowed or not. The GMs here decided they're no longer allowed, but will probably add NPC gambling later (I guess like Luclin and the Golden Ticket).

[Rais]

So not only do you refuse to give specifics on what is allowed and what isn't, which is akin to congress writing laws that nobody is allowed to read, except for the title, but now you refuse to give the reasons why the law was written in the first place? Awesome transparency there. Are we really at the point where we have too many people playing on the server and so the solution is to do everything in order turn people off?

Thank god we can compare a removing scam filled casinos on an everquest emu to an arm of a superpower's legislature. He gave you the major reason as to why it was removed, obviously there are more reasons. The simple fact of the demanding time put into CSR involvement to deal with scammers running casinos and not seeing why this is an issue is nuts. Put your big boy shoes on and walk away and stop crying over it.

[zforrestal]

I think you deserve to be bullied for comparing yourself to Rosa Parks. I mean, damn brah. Come on.

Principle is principle doesn't matter what incident I refer to, it's still the same thing. If you can't realize/accept that regardless of your opinion on casinos, then you're just a bigot :)

You're right it's not going to put a big dent in the server population.. yet it's still denting it more than having them be run....

[Fiyero]

I think you deserve to be bullied for comparing yourself to Rosa Parks. I mean, damn brah. Come on.

Yeah, I saw that statement and I'm like... :eek: Seriously?

[Orruar]

Does that help?

That definition could be used to include:
Rolling for a piece of gear that just dropped
Attacking a blue con mob (it's quite a gamble, but you might win some loot)
Paying someone to camp a spawn for you (you're paying money and gambling that the mob will pop)

Without some kind of specificity in regards to what gambling means in EQ, the rule is overly vague and open to interpretation. Our laws are overly specific for a reason.

[Wrench]

You can just as easily TURN OFF random roll text as it is for me to walk to T2

lost me here

# people turn off (and later on) random >> # people walk to t2

[Orruar]

He gave you the major reason as to why it was removed,

Casino's will never return.

If it was just an issue with scamming and nothing else, Casino's wouldn't be banned. We have our own reasons beyond that for removing them. Suffice it to say we've decided they are gone and won't be coming back.

Learn to read, Rais. Clearly scamming wasn't "the major reason" if casinos wouldn't be banned if it was the only thing. If you can't even keep up with a 4 page thread, you better bow out and accept the limits of your reading comprehension before even more words appear.

[Fiyero]

That definition could be used to include:
Rolling for a piece of gear that just dropped
Attacking a blue con mob (it's quite a gamble, but you might win some loot)
Paying someone to camp a spawn for you (you're paying money and gambling that the mob will pop)

Without some kind of specificity in regards to what gambling means in EQ, the rule is overly vague and open to interpretation. Our laws are overly specific for a reason.

I think it's fairly obvious this ban is targeting people who sit in the EC tunnel taking thousands of plat from people for the .000001% chance of supposedly winning a Fungi Tunic before said Casino operator coincidently goes LD with the guy's money.

If you're having trouble discerning that from attacking a blue con mob, I don't know what to tell you.

[Grimjaw]

EVE developers strive to keep the "sandboxness" in tact and try to balance risk vs reward with each game-change, where as every other game the developers cave to the whiners and turn it into carebear themepark

Compare EVE to EQLive. One is still a strong sandbox MMO where things you achieved in the first year still mean something. where the other one has been butchered to shit

In EVE, you are never safe from other players. Whether that be getting your ship blown up or all of your $ scammed

[Orruar]

I think it's fairly obvious this ban is targeting people who sit in the EC tunnel taking thousands of plat from people for the .00000001% of supposedly winning a Fungi Tunic before said Casino operator coincidently goes LD with the guy's money.

If you're having trouble discerning that from attacking a blue con mob, I don't know what to tell you.

And if you can't understand there's an entire spectrum from EC scammer casinos to attacking blue cons, I don't know what to tell you. There are hundreds/thousands/millions of ways in which to "gamble" in this game and without any kind of specifics on what is not allowed or why the casinos were banned, it's impossible to tell which of those actions will get you banned and which won't.

[nickme]

SERIOUSLY HOW THE FUCK IS THIS LIKE CLASSIC? I was there. Classic memories discussed between me and my little brother for the last 15 years have always involved casinos. Don't make this a prison server man. It's all EQ has left. There's no where else for us hardcore players to go.

[Fiyero]

And if you can't understand there's an entire spectrum from EC scammer casinos to attacking blue cons, I don't know what to tell you. Attacking blue cons isn't a Casino.

There are hundreds/thousands/millions of ways in which to "gamble" in this game and without any kind of specifics on what is not allowed or why the casinos were banned, it's impossible to tell which of those actions will get you banned and which won't.

Seems pretty simple to me. Don't auction a Casino in the EC tunnel where people give you money and /random in hopes of winning an item.

Clearly the GMs are not going to ban you for killing blue con mobs, seeing as that's kind of required to play the game.

Logic not even once. :rolleyes:

[Olscratch]

Auctioning casinos/spamming as a casino is still legal as long as you don't accept any bets according to new rules.

Quellious server had casinos during Kunark/Velious era. I'm sure some Moonlight Crusaders can verify.

[Fiyero]

SERIOUSLY HOW THE FUCK IS THIS LIKE CLASSIC? I was there. Classic memories discussed between me and my little brother for the last 15 years have always involved casinos. Don't make this a prison server man. It's all EQ has left. There's no where else for us hardcore players to go.

Casinos were banned on some servers on live. Verant didn't have a policy for it, but GMs could allow them or ban them.

[Orruar]

Auctioning casinos/spamming as a casino is still legal as long as you don't accept any bets according to new rules.

How do you know this? Perhaps it was all the casino spam that was a factor in shutting down the casinos. They haven't specified the rules or the reasons for the rules, so you have no idea whether such an action would result in a ban.

[Olscratch]

"Operation or use of "casinos", including, but not limited to, dice rolls, card games, "guessing" games, and any other form of gambling."

Don't see anything about spamming. Long as I'm not operating should be g2g spamwise.

[zforrestal]

SERIOUSLY HOW THE FUCK IS THIS LIKE CLASSIC? I was there. Don't make this a prison server man.

The casino ban to me is more than just a ban.. it an infringement on basic rights that should be applied even if it's just a video game...

[Tenlaar]

Without some kind of specificity in regards to what gambling means in EQ, the rule is overly vague and open to interpretation.

Seems like only casino operators are having trouble with interpreting this rule. What a strange coincidence.

[Rais]

Learn to read, Rais. Clearly scamming wasn't "the major reason" if casinos wouldn't be banned if it was the only thing. If you can't even keep up with a 4 page thread, you better bow out and accept the limits of your reading comprehension before even more words appear.

Well I guess I can use your logical and draw conclusions and compare it to something to something pretty retarded, yet something you would think.


We hope that this change will make for a safer trading community and help protect the players on our server.


Pretending to be Orruar What do you mean help protect the players on our server? Are people being hunted down by the like of old timey mofia cainso owners? Are casinos tied to RMT and the IRS are now targeting players on the server? How about some transparency as to what constitutes "help protect the players". Why can't you be straight forward and tell us if we are about to wake up with a horse head next to us, or get an audit in the mail? Is this server so over populated that you are reporting us yourself to cut back on the players?


Before attacking someone's reading comprehension how about you understand and read the post you so oppose.


We hope that this change will make for a safer trading community and help protect the players on our server.


We hope that this change will make for a safer trading community


A safer trading community

[zforrestal]

I've been here since Nov 2009 like I said.. I think the server came up in October of 2009? I've never RMT'd never planned on it never will... I've never been accused of scamming and having it be legitimate (It was always someone who hated casinos just trolling) I want to know how MY actions are causing issues... otherwise I don't see what issues are arising due to properly run casinos.

[Fiyero]

The casino ban to me is more than just a ban.. it an infringement on basic rights that should be applied even if it's just a video game...

You have basic rights in a video game? :confused:

[Grimjaw]

no its called sandbox vs themepark and this one just got the railway tracks installed (because you are stuck to a path and are not allowed to deviate from that path)

[Orruar]

Seems like only casino operators are having trouble with interpreting this rule. What a strange coincidence.

I'm a casino operator? News to me. I played a casino exactly once (to get rid of a golden bracer I didn't want to sell). I just have a problem with new rules that are entirely vague, both in purpose and enforcement.

[Orruar]

And I'm also willing to fight to allow people to enjoy this game how they want, as long as they aren't detracting from others' enjoyment of the game. I thought that was the whole point, to maximize enjoyment for everyone.

[Derubael]

"Operation or use of "casinos", including, but not limited to, dice rolls, card games, "guessing" games, and any other form of gambling."

Don't see anything about spamming. Long as I'm not operating should be g2g spamwise.

Fixed the wording in OP to include advertising.


The casino ban to me is more than just a ban.. it an infringement on basic rights that should be applied even if it's just a video game...


I really hate to say it, but the only rights or privileges you have on this server are the ones Nilbog, Rogean, and the rest of the staff provide for you. We reserve the right to take those privileges away at any time. You aren't being persecuted, there is no discrimination, and there is no such thing as 'the basic right to run a casino'. That's simply not a thing.

Anyone who wants to run a casino is welcome to do so in any number of other places... the live servers, WoW servers, other MMORPGS, hell, go find and old text based MUD and run one there - I have some recommendations for good ones to try.

I am truly sorry if this has ruined anyone's Project 1999 experience, but this decision is in-line with everything we've aimed this serve towards since it's inception.

<3 you all, the world isnt ending, you'll survive.

[a_gnoll_pup]

I heard EQClassic will allow player-run scamsinos.

[Whirled]

(not a hijack) but.. when was shared bank slots available?
**Apologies if this has been asked before**

[JayN]

pras gm staff! one less RMT scammer

[Olscratch]

Tookie's uninstalled. Nice job on the anti-gambling crusade Derubael, Tookie was one of the coolest guys on the server.

[Rogean]

Casinos are problematic for a number of reasons. Many people were getting scammed out of them as well as hiding other server forbidden activities behind them (use your imagination). Not only are these reasons enough but many EQLive servers DID prohibit their operations, and several MMO's in existance don't allow them either. Obviously as the behavior of the internet has evolved since 15 years ago, rules need to be adjusted to match.

[Rogean]

So not only do you refuse to give specifics on what is allowed and what isn't, which is akin to congress writing laws that nobody is allowed to read, except for the title, but now you refuse to give the reasons why the law was written in the first place? Awesome transparency there. Are we really at the point where we have too many people playing on the server and so the solution is to do everything in order turn people off?

This is not a congress. You are not a tax paying citizen.

Unfortunately while there were plenty of legitimate people running casinos, for every one of them there were several people abusing the system. We can't single certain people out and say they are the only ones allowed to run casinos.

[mtb tripper]

You are not a tax paying citizen.


Elaborate on tax paying

[fangz20]

Vegas is dead............ Bring on Reno Derubael

[Waedawen]

We are sorry for ruining your Everquest gambling experience. We realize that at this point in time the number of players we will lose due to this change may just vacate the box completely, but we vow to continue on despite the odds.

Wow so snarky and edgy

Can you teach me how to be as cool as you / dougie?

It took about 6 years for someone to feel important enough to make a decision on 'scamming people.' Seems to be a really important, hard-line decision imo.
Gotta save those precious seconds of those very important, very busy days! Can't be bothered wasting your time in *Everquest* of all places.

Never mind the 35 year olds shitting their own pants in VP every week, begging someone to wipe their ass!

[Waedawen]

Seems like only casino operators are having trouble with interpreting this rule. What a strange coincidence.

You are such a smug lame ass, dude. Stop talking.

[Orruar]

This is not a congress. You are not a tax paying citizen.

Unfortunately while there were plenty of legitimate people running casinos, for every one of them there were several people abusing the system. We can't single certain people out and say they are the only ones allowed to run casinos.

Congress is not the only place where specific rules are placed so that there is no room for imagination and people know specifically what actions they are allowed to take. There are a million examples I could give from the real world, but how about one a little closer to home. When I launch the EQ Titanium client, the first thing I see is a EULA. This EULA is not overly vague. It is very specific about the rules regarding how you may use the software. I know you know these rules very well as you must stay within them to keep the server from being shut down due to violating this agreement. If they had written the EULA in an overly vague manner, P99 might not even exist. Or you might have put in a lot of work to create it and get it going, only to have it shut down because some new guy at SOE decided to interpret it differently. In fact, without specific rules, you would have not known how to structure the server in order to stay legal. And now you're handing down rules for your server that are so vague that nobody will know if they are breaking them or not. Do you see the disconnect here?

[JayN]

You are such a smug lame ass, dude. Stop talking.

Tookie made it to the forums finally?

[Elerial]

Congress is not the only place where specific rules are placed so that there is no room for imagination and people know specifically what actions they are allowed to take. There are a million examples I could give from the real world, but how about one a little closer to home. When I launch the EQ Titanium client, the first thing I see is a EULA. This EULA is not overly vague. It is very specific about the rules regarding how you may use the software. I know you know these rules very well as you must stay within them to keep the server from being shut down due to violating this agreement. If they had written the EULA in an overly vague manner, P99 might not even exist. Or you might have put in a lot of work to create it and get it going, only to have it shut down because some new guy at SOE decided to interpret it differently. In fact, without specific rules, you would have not known how to structure the server in order to stay legal. And now you're handing down rules for your server that are so vague that nobody will know if they are breaking them or not. Do you see the disconnect here?

Dude, please un-install/delete the game.

The IQ of the server population is going to rise for about 10% with you gone.

[Waedawen]

Tookie made it to the forums finally?

What the fuck are you people talking about? How do you think you're so important that you can make such wild, stupid-ass accusations?


Most of the people defending casinos don't run casinos. And I don't know how in the hell you're implying I'm Tookie unless you're actually mentally retarded and can't see that 'Zforrestal' is.


Everyone 'hating' on casinos are doing so for absolutely no reason. 'Wahhhh my spam.' 'Wahhhhh I got scammed.' Orruar is right in saying that these 'solutions' don't necessarily fix these 'problems.' You just have your head so far up your ass you can't see the light of day.

[zforrestal]

We are sorry for ruining your Everquest gambling experience. We realize that at this point in time the number of players we will lose due to this change may just vacate the box completely, but we vow to continue on despite the odds.



You're losing more people to this "ban" than casinos running, and this doesn't stop "scammers" from playing this only stops legitimate people from playing.

What has been seriously stopped by no casinos... Yes its a way to slide by on (other illegal actions) but it doesn't stop them completely so nothing is solved...


I do have hope that one day this will get overturned....

[Argh]

I think the biggest issue with casinos is that they provided a pretty easy way to mask RMT activity.

An NPC casino like the one that was in shadow haven on live would be pretty neat.

Also, player run casinos were not allowed on the server I played on during live (E'ci).

[captnamazing]

I lament for the loss of Tookie, you were great.

Meatspin will live

[Shiftin]

How hard is it for people to understand that people were using "casinos" as a front for RMT plat sales? It is WAY more difficult to find and stop RMT when you exponentially increase the constant plat back and forth happening because of Casinos. We saw concrete evidence after the big RMT ban where people banned for RMT admitted they got their plat given to them from someone pretending to run a casino.


Come on people, think. This is a huge boon for RMT enforcement and it makes sitting in EC significantly less annoying.

[zforrestal]

I think the biggest issue with casinos is that they provided a pretty easy way to mask RMT activity.

An NPC casino like the one that was in shadow haven on live would be pretty neat.

Also, player run casinos were not allowed on the server I played on during live (E'ci).

Yea obviously the problem is RMT but it doesn't solve it and doesn't get rid of the people who are trying to do RMT's just helps the GM's be able to track them down easier..

I really don't think people are going to stop playing just because of this ruling. The only person they are really going to lose for good is me and that's because I just play to host a casino hence why I'm so adamant about the topic.. I feel they know that it is a loss which I guess is ok for me...

How hard is it for people to understand that people were using "casinos" as a front for RMT plat sales? It is WAY more difficult to find and stop RMT when you exponentially increase the constant plat back and forth happening because of Casinos. We saw concrete evidence after the big RMT ban where people banned for RMT admitted they got their plat given to them from someone pretending to run a casino.


Come on people, think. This is a huge boon for RMT enforcement and it makes sitting in EC significantly less annoying.

I don't think people aren't grasping that aspect.. the point is the actions of others are affecting the actions of legitimate good people which for me is one of my big reasons and I'm assuming the reason for other people who run or play at casinos.

[Shiftin]

Yea obviously the problem is RMT but it doesn't solve it and doesn't get rid of the people who are trying to do RMT's just helps the GM's be able to track them down easier..

I really don't think people are going to stop playing just because of this ruling. The only person they are really going to lose for good is me and that's because I just play to host a casino hence why I'm so adamant about the topic.. I feel they know that it is a loss which I guess is ok for me...

If your inventory gets continually seized, you tend to stop operating a store.

[zforrestal]

If you're a scumbag you're a scumbag why should that affect me...

I'm not a scumbag I'd like to think I do good things but now I'm affected due to assholes... cool

[Olscratch]

I think the biggest issue with casinos is that they provided a pretty easy way to mask RMT activity.

BULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT

[Shiftin]

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. The net loss to the server from pissing people off (i'm sorry, you're probably awesome as a person, but casinos as a category are really REALLY annoying - i have to /ignore someone new almost every time i come to EC), the petitions for people who were or claim to be scammed that keep the GMs busy, and masking RMT far outweighs the experience of the tiny group of people running legitimate casinos.

Just because something is bad for you, doesn't mean it is bad for the server, even if you yourself aren't bad for the server.

[Derubael]

If people are going to leave because they can't gamble at player run casinos then that's their choice. This is in-line with what many servers did on classic. There's no point in arguing about it because it's not going to get overturned.

Player run casinos are gone for good and not coming back.

[Shiftin]

BULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT

No, it's not bullshit. It's empirically proved out by flood of people who came forward when they were banned for RMT who said they were given plat or items purchased with real life money from people pretending to run a casino. Also, every staff member posting in this thread has said or alluded to the exact same thing, and they're the ones who have to comb through the logs to catch these assholes.

[zforrestal]

No, it's not bullshit. It's empirically proved out by flood of people who came forward when they were banned for RMT who said they were given plat or items purchased with real life money from people pretending to run a casino. Also, every staff member posting in this thread has said or alluded to the exact same thing, and they're the ones who have to comb through the logs to catch these assholes.

I feel this doesn't help track down RMT's I can see how you'd think so.. but it's as easy as emailing one another, work out the transaction, go into game trade item... you dont even need a casino to hide that... but regardless I do understand the reasoning behind it, I just don't think it does anything... plus other reasons.


Show me after one year that RMT's have dropped or been easier to spot out since the Ban.. I don't think it will change.. I could be wrong though.


Also you couldn't wait 4 days to make this ruling.... my b-day is in 3 I was going to do something awesome :-P

[Shiftin]

But it does do things. Imagine a database log file for player to player plat transactions with and without casinos operating. Imagine how much easier it is to spot trends and people who seem to deal only in handing money back and forth between players.

Before, an RMT mule handing someone 100k over 20 transaction wouldn't set off any alarms because it would be buried in hundreds or thousands of other small back and forth transactions happening the same day, even actual casino transactions the RMT mule could do from time to time to "prove" his legitimacy.

Now, much harder to hide.

Think beyond how this annoys you personally.

[Olscratch]

No, it's not bullshit. It's empirically proved out by flood of people who came forward when they were banned for RMT who said they were given plat or items purchased with real life money from people pretending to run a casino. Also, every staff member posting in this thread has said or alluded to the exact same thing, and they're the ones who have to comb through the logs to catch these assholes.

Link, Source? None of the staff members have mentioned RMT.
They won't even speak about any reason for the casino shut down/all gambling made illegal besides saying it wasn't primarily based on the (1) casino scam that happened.

[Rais]

I really don't think people are going to stop playing just because of this ruling. The only person they are really going to lose for good is me and that's because I just play to host a casino hence why I'm so adamant about the topic.. I feel they know that it is a loss which I guess is ok for me....


You voiced your opinion, and the rule won't change. Save yourself some heartache and move on from this argument.

Link, Source? None of the staff members have mentioned RMT.
They won't even speak about any reason for the casino shut down/all gambling made illegal besides saying it wasn't primarily based on the (1) casino scam that happened.

It was stated. Help yourself to use the search function about how people get scammed from casino alone and other activity that involves rmt.

[ripwind]

Nobody is going to leave over this. Just a bunch of hot-headed responses. As someone who has played the casinos, never been scammed, and mostly broken even... I'm actually all for them being disallowed. They were never allowed on my server on live, either. The GMs are tasked enough without having to deal with casino-related petitions and the possible RMT implications.

Also, this isn't a democracy.

[Argh]

It does make tracking down RMT easier.

I would imagine that many RMT'ers were using casinos as a front to launder RMT'd plat through. It would be very easy to then say that the plat or items you obtained illicitly were obtained through casinos and it would be very hard to confirm/refute the legitimacy of such a claim.

With casinos now gone, it leaves RMT'ers without a reliable means of connecting buyers to sellers.

In the end it doesn't completely solve any RMT issues but it does greatly reduce the potential for it at the moment. Keeping the server RMT free is imperative to the overall well being of the server, and this is just a necessary step in accomplishing that.

[zforrestal]

Nobody is going to leave over this. .

I count as someone even though I'm not important, and I have no point to play EQ the raid scene to me is how some of you view casinos.... lame, people breaking rules, not fun and causes issues that aren't going to be fixed..

I say after 1 year, if RMT's don't decrease, then the ban should be lifted but that's wishful thinking..


[QUOTE=Argh;1584111]It does make tracking down RMT easier.

I would imagine that many RMT'ers were using casinos as a front to launder RMT'd plat through. It would be very easy to then say that the plat or items you obtained illicitly were obtained through casinos and it would be very hard to confirm/refute the legitimacy of such a claim.

With casinos now gone, it leaves RMT'ers without a reliable means of connecting buyers to sellers.

In the end it doesn't completely solve any RMT issues but it does greatly reduce the potential for it at the moment. Keeping the server RMT free is imperative to the overall well being of the server, and this is just a necessary step in accomplishing that.[/QUOTE

I get the logic behind it, I still don't think it will put a dent into how often it goes on, but yea Sad day

[Shiftin]

If investigations are easier, more plat is seized or RMT mules banned. The more inventory used for RMT is seized, the less profitable the business becomes, and the less people participate in it. At what point in that train of logic do you disagree?

[Rogean]

Congress is not the only place where specific rules are placed so that there is no room for imagination and people know specifically what actions they are allowed to take. There are a million examples I could give from the real world, but how about one a little closer to home. When I launch the EQ Titanium client, the first thing I see is a EULA. This EULA is not overly vague. It is very specific about the rules regarding how you may use the software. I know you know these rules very well as you must stay within them to keep the server from being shut down due to violating this agreement. If they had written the EULA in an overly vague manner, P99 might not even exist. Or you might have put in a lot of work to create it and get it going, only to have it shut down because some new guy at SOE decided to interpret it differently. In fact, without specific rules, you would have not known how to structure the server in order to stay legal. And now you're handing down rules for your server that are so vague that nobody will know if they are breaking them or not. Do you see the disconnect here?

Your entire argument is that the rule is vague?

How is the rule vague?

Casino's / Gambling shops aren't allowed.

Are you really trying to rule lawyer this? If so that's pretty sad...

[ripwind]

Wow. I want to work where you guys do so I can get drunk at lunch, too.

[Olscratch]

Your entire argument is that the rule is vague?

How is the rule vague?

Casino's / Gambling shops aren't allowed.

Are you really trying to rule lawyer this? If so that's pretty sad...


The rule says all gambling not just gambling shops.

from OP "any other form of gambling : Please use your best discretion when determining what constitutes "gambling"

[Orruar]

Your entire argument is that the rule is vague?

How is the rule vague?

Casino's / Gambling shops aren't allowed.

Are you really trying to rule lawyer this? If so that's pretty sad...

I asked for some specific scenarios earlier. I'm trying to get a feel for what we can do and what we can't. What if me and a friend want to play some dice games while waiting on PHs to spawn? Can we have a casino night in guild for fun? What if we then invite others to join in on the fun? You can see where this is leading. Deru wouldn't answer any questions about specific situations earlier and asked us to make the decision for ourselves, which seems like a terrible way to run things. I just want to know where that line is between legal fun and illegal gambling.

[Rais]

Sounds like you are trying to be as naive as you can so you can do shady rmt stuff. Your answers are in the very first post you are so upset about. And I am going to guess you will say /rand for loot off a npc from a group kill is considered gambling. He already responded to that one as well.

I asked for some specific scenarios earlier. I'm trying to get a feel for what we can do and what we can't. What if me and a friend want to play some dice games while waiting on PHs to spawn? Can we have a casino night in guild for fun? What if we then invite others to join in on the fun? .


Due to numerous issues resulting from player run casinos and to reflect similar policies enacted on Live during classic, as well as other MMORPG's, we have decided to prohibit the operation, advertisement, or use of "casinos", including, but not limited to, dice rolls, card games, "guessing" games, and any other form of gambling. Please use your best discretion when determining what constitutes "gambling".


That's not what is being outlined here. If you can't tell the difference between gambling at a 'casino' or playing a game of chance for potential profit with another player, and rolling on an item that dropped off an NPC, you are going to have a very hard time - and that has nothing to do with the casinos getting banned.

I know what you are doing, and you are welcome to do it, but I'd highly recommend not testing us on this. It's pretty simple cut and dry. Casinos are now gone.

[Olscratch]

So is "any other form of gambling" only limited to gambling shops/people calling themselves casinos or does that apply to every player on the server?

[Rogean]

Have you ever played a card game with friends for money? Made Bets etc? If so, that's illegal. You're not going to have the police knocking down your door for it though.

[zforrestal]

If investigations are easier, more plat is seized or RMT mules banned. The more inventory used for RMT is seized, the less profitable the business becomes, and the less people participate in it. At what point in that train of logic do you disagree?

I get the logic still don't think it's going to put a dent on how often it happens and sure might make it easier to track down, I don't see that as a valid reason to ban all casinos, but yea sucks, I'm upset - cool-, I think you would be too if your sole reason of playing was taken out. For me this is as big as taking out end game content. I mean the only reason anything has any value is the "lack of availability" of said items. So it's kind of paradoxical, if everything was easy to get what value would it have, but instead we have guilds who horde spawn timers, thus increasing the value of plat and x items, thus making plat or items worth money... why not make all end game instance based and a timer on each character instead of the mob.. wouldn't fix the problem entirely but would decrease RMT's.. but then you'd argue that that isn't how Classic EQ is, but if the problem is decreasing RMT's why not? I know you'll just laugh but that's how I view it.

[Wrench]

I know you'll just laugh

nostradamus

[zforrestal]

Have you ever played a card game with friends for money? Made Bets etc? If so, that's illegal. You're not going to have the police knocking down your door for it though.

Actually it's not illegal to gamble.. it's a misconception... there's 2 parts to this depending on where you are but, First it's illegal if someone is making a profit from hosting said game.. for example every pot the host takes out X amount of dollars to go towards "the house" which is what casinos do at a poker table and why they need a license to run a casino.. the second part is depending on which state.. if you win a over a certain amount from gambling.. in Connecticut it was anything $600 over a year I think, you had to claim the winnings on your taxes. So house games aren't illegal unless the host takes a percentage for personal gain and as long as no one is winning more than $600 and not claiming it. That's for Connecticut, or was when I was dealing at Foxwoods 6 years ago.

[Orruar]

Have you ever played a card game with friends for money? Made Bets etc? If so, that's illegal. You're not going to have the police knocking down your door for it though.

Ok, so that makes me think even playing some dice with a friend in between PH is banned. So let's go the other direction now. How about selling loot rights to multiple people where each person has a chance (i.e. Black sapphire dropped and 4 people need? All pay 1k and /random to see who wins)? If that's allowed, does the roll need to take place immediately, or can you take the item to EC and do it there?

[Rais]

Guess what. P99 is his state and he made it illegal. Get over it and go protest something in real life that matters.

[Rogean]

Ok, so that makes me think even playing some dice with a friend in between PH is banned. So let's go the other direction now. How about selling loot rights to multiple people where each person has a chance (i.e. Black sapphire dropped and 4 people need? All pay 1k and /random to see who wins)? If that's allowed, does the roll need to take place immediately, or can you take the item to EC and do it there?

Thats gambling... You're paying for a chance and not a definitive.

[ripwind]

Ok, so that makes me think even playing some dice with a friend in between PH is banned. So let's go the other direction now. How about selling loot rights to multiple people where each person has a chance (i.e. Black sapphire dropped and 4 people need? All pay 1k and /random to see who wins)? If that's allowed, does the roll need to take place immediately, or can you take the item to EC and do it there?

Come on.

[zforrestal]

Guess what. P99 is his state and he made it illegal. Get over it and go protest something in real life that matters.

You're right, but people "petitioned" against casinos so we'd voicing our opinions JUST LIKE EVERYONE else on the topic at hand. I'm sorry I didn't know we had to just shut up about the issue and not voice our opinions.. I've tried to be as polite as possible and yet all I see is a bunch of bigotry when it comes to people stating they don't like the idea of the ban.

[ripwind]

Rogean and Deru... You two are saints. Keep up the good work.

[Shiftin]

I get the logic still don't think it's going to put a dent on how often it happens and sure might make it easier to track down,


No no, you didn't actually answer my question. If you think it'll be easier to track down and stop, why do you think it won't decrease the number of people doing it. You increase the risk by both parties and make it less profitable. What opposing factor would keep those things from naturally decreasing the activity in the market?

It's really really basic macroeconomic theory you're just whizzing by here. Why will the activity not decrease if it becomes less profitable for the seller and higher risk for the buyer?

[zforrestal]

No no, you didn't actually answer my question. If you think it'll be easier to track down and stop, why do you think it won't decrease the number of people doing it. You increase the risk by both parties and make it less profitable. What opposing factor would keep those things from naturally decreasing the activity in the market?

It's really really basic macroeconomic theory you're just whizzing by here. Why will the activity not decrease if it becomes less profitable for the seller and higher risk for the buyer?

I'm sorry I should put it like this. I do agree that it will help decrease RMT's, I don't think the decrease will put a big enough impact on RMT's.

[Orruar]

Thats gambling... You're paying for a chance and not a definitive.

What about the Chardok ae group? Currently people are paying 2k per pull to get into the group. In addition for the xp they gain, they get a chance at loots that drop.

[Rogean]

What about the Chardok ae group? Currently people are paying 2k per pull to get into the group. In addition for the xp they gain, they get a chance at loots that drop.

They're paying for a definitive spot in the group for XP. The chance at loot drops is a bonus.

[gwideon]

Wow, the server GM and guide disrespect in this thread is disturbing. I can't believe that people treat the people that provide them a free service at great time and cost to themselves so poorly.

[Orruar]

What about a situation like this: Fungi drops and the group of three all would like it, but they don't want to lose 100% if they lose the roll. So they agree that the winner gets the fungi, while the losers each get 20k from the winner. They are in essence each paying 40k with the winner getting fungi (pays 40k, receives fungi) while the two losers get 60k back (net +20k). Or looking at it another way, the other option this group has is to sell and split the funds. Let's say they could get 75k for the fungi, or 25k each. Essentially they're each paying 5k for a fungi roll.

This isn't some crazy scenario that will never happen. I've often split loot like this where everyone wants the item, only one person can have it, and everyone agrees losers should get some money from it.

[Orruar]

They're paying for a definitive spot in the group for XP. The chance at loot drops is a bonus.

So casinos can operate as long as they get some xp for the people who are gambling? Sounds like we'll soon see a lot of EC powerleveling!

[Rogean]

So casinos can operate as long as they get some xp for the people who are gambling? Sounds like we'll soon see a lot of EC powerleveling!

Let me know how that works out for you.

[Traxan]

HA HA!


:D


HA HA!

[Grimjaw]

developers should just focus on creating great tools for the playerbase, and then let the players use them to generate the content. Such as the /roll command

This is suppose to be a sandbox I thought. Next lets make instanced dungeons.

[Haynar]

developers should just focus on creating great tools for the playerbase, and then let the players use them to generate the content. Such as the /roll command

This is suppose to be a sandbox I thought. Next lets make instanced dungeons.
When you have a sandbox, you keep the cats out. Otherwise you end up with nothing more than a box filled with crap.

H

[Pokesan]

A good change, thank you staff!

[zforrestal]

You could look at it this way as well. Gambling is : "to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions.." (Looked up on Merriam more definitions if you so please) so no gambling actually goes down within EQ unless you give an actual value to Plat or items (which in this case are just pixels with no tangible existence). The problem isn't casinos the problem is giving Value to said pixels, and by enforcing a BAN on casinos you also reinforce that these pixels have monetary value.

[ripwind]

When you have a sandbox, you keep the cats out. Otherwise you end up with nothing more than a box filled with crap.

H

That is perfect!

[Ella`Ella]

I <3 anything that takes PP out of the economy. Nilbog and I are big fans of fighting inflation.

Make a single NPC that sells a guise of the deceiver for 1 million plat.

[Orruar]

To all those who think this won't hurt server population, you're wrong. Earlier there were over 1.1 billion people on beta. I just logged in and now there are -33 million. This ban has already crippled the player base.

[JayN]

pras gm staff! one less RMT scammer

[Tenlaar]

You could look at it this way as well. Gambling is : "to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions.." (Looked up on Merriam more definitions if you so please) so no gambling actually goes down within EQ unless you give an actual value to Plat or items (which in this case are just pixels with no tangible existence). The problem isn't casinos the problem is giving Value to said pixels, and by enforcing a BAN on casinos you also reinforce that these pixels have monetary value.

Do you honestly think you are going to lawyer them into reversing the decision?

[zforrestal]

Nope, why waste my breath? Cuz I can

[heartbrand]

lol typical american style rulemaking, people too dumb to take care of themselves so big brother needs to step in. sad.

[Derubael]

Have you ever played a card game with friends for money? Made Bets etc? If so, that's illegal. You're not going to have the police knocking down your door for it though.

This is a great analogy, and more or less what I had stated earlier, just phrased in a way that's less vague.

I personally will be looking for specific things in regards to violations of this rule. The reason I'm not releasing this criteria is so that shady people can't circumvent it. Don't run a casino, dont advertise gambling, and don't be a central source for an inordinate amount of bets for in game platinum/items, and you will be fine.

You're right, but people "petitioned" against casinos so we'd voicing our opinions JUST LIKE EVERYONE else on the topic at hand. I'm sorry I didn't know we had to just shut up about the issue and not voice our opinions.. I've tried to be as polite as possible and yet all I see is a bunch of bigotry when it comes to people stating they don't like the idea of the ban.

This honestly has far less to do with the casino ban than you think it does. The bottom line is if we didn't think it was serious, we wouldn't be enforcing a ban. I can tell you that it's enough of a problem that it had to be dealt with.

Also, as a side note:

"to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions.." (Looked up on Merriam more definitions if you so please) so no gambling actually goes down within EQ unless you give an actual value to Plat or items (which in this case are just pixels with no tangible existence).

There are some people who have paid hundreds of dollars for their characters and pixels who would beg to differ that platinum doesn't have real world value.

[Orruar]

Before attacking someone's reading comprehension how about you understand and read the post you so oppose.


And so a few pages later we learn that in fact scamming is not the primary reason for this ban, but RMT money funneling is. I'll buy you a jump-to-conclusions mat in celebration.

[Fountree]

I'm a bit upset at this ban primarily because it takes away another thing people could have fun with to pass the time on a server with a dwindling amount of things to do/accomplish. It really hits at player freedom...again. Feel bad for the new guys trying to make a buck and have a laugh in EC. Oh well, it's over, let's move on and hope that the elimination of this distraction for the GM/staff can help the server focus on getting velious out in a timely fashion.

[Haynar]

Make a single NPC that sells a guise of the deceiver for 1 million plat.

Great idea in principle. But very limitted ppl currently could get.

Dalaya had similar idea for charms. And it led to a new group of farmers, farming for charms. It really didnt help take plat out of economy quite like they planned.

Any good reward is going to increase # ppl farming. And increase items and plat in economy overall.

H

[mtb tripper]

economic inflation

[zforrestal]

"......This honestly has far less to do with the casino ban than you think it does...... etc"
Also, as a side note:



There are some people who have paid hundreds of dollars for their characters and pixels who would beg to differ that platinum doesn't have real world value.


Sure you could say that plat is commodity money, and I think you just reinforce that it has value by even doing this ban. I understand the problem is more beyond the casino itself and more of what they allow to happen more easily, I just think the approach to the real problem is being handled wrong.

[Olscratch]

It really hits at player freedom...again.

Why have player freedom when you can give the guides/GMs more work to do policing all forms of gambling. It's a win/win.

[Orruar]

Define "irony":

Outlawing gambling in a game based on this:
http://www.chuck-a-con.net/claydowling_d20.png

[Derubael]

Sure you could say that plat is commodity money, and I think you just reinforce that it has value by even doing this ban. I understand the problem is more beyond the casino itself and more of what they allow to happen more easily, I just think the approach to the real problem is being handled wrong.

I am all ears for suggestions on how to fix the real problem.

Why have player freedom when you can give the guides/GMs more work to do policing all forms of gambling. It's a win/win.

It's actually far less work. It's definitely easier from a CSR Investigations standpoint to just prohibit their use completely.

[Oleris]

I'm all in on whatever gets us velious sooner

[Doril]

Why not handle all the scamming/crying about beeing scamed the classic way: classic PnP stated clearly: "All trades are final". You hit trade and dont get anything in return, then its your fault since you hit trade and the staff can just delete the petition about it.

[zforrestal]

Why not handle all the scamming/crying about beeing scamed the classic way: classic PnP stated clearly: "All trades are final". You hit trade and dont get anything in return, then its your fault since you hit trade and the staff can just delete the petition about it.


Because the issue at hand isn't scamming.. it's RMT's

I am all ears for suggestions on how to fix the real problem.


I don't think there's anything you can do to completely stop RMTs from happening besides making everything free and available... or making plat's real money value so low that it's not worth trying to sell for money.. only way I can think to do that is make everything more available...

You could argue that to be able to make things more available to decrease the value of plat so that it's not worth it to sell for real money, would ultimately change the game and it wouldn't be Classic EQ, but since RMT's are the main issue at hand, I'd assume the goal is to get rid of RMT's and if the goal is to stop it completely then are the steps to make plat/items more available in motion as well? Or are the GM's not trying to stop RMT's, just be able to control/target them easier?


I'll do your volunteer staff work for you and go through the logs to track down RMT's if it's coming down to "less work" for the GMs/CSRs. I'll pick up the slack :)

[Rupertox]

what about casino license? you can earn it, you can lose it, bit of work for the staff, but clean server....

[Olscratch]

It's actually far less work. It's definitely easier from a CSR Investigations standpoint to just prohibit their use completely.

That's cool that you can make that judgement before the policy even goes into effect.

Maybe I'm wrong and your serverwide gambling prohibition will be like marijuana prohibition and plenty will do it and it'll be barely policed. Which seems to be Rogean's take on the situation.
Have you ever played a card game with friends for money? Made Bets etc? If so, that's illegal. You're not going to have the police knocking down your door for it though.

[zforrestal]

what about casino license? you can earn it, you can lose it, bit of work for the staff, but clean server....

I agree, it's not hard to put a rule that says only licensed casinos are allow to run on the p99 server. Licensed Casinos have to be tested by a CSR or GM and have stipulations like must have been active for 2 years etc easy to do... they rather not do it.. BUT I WOULD :)

[Elerial]

I agree, it's not hard to put a rule that says only licensed casinos are allow to run on the p99 server. Licensed Casinos have to be tested by a CSR or GM and have stipulations like must have been active for 2 years etc easy to do... they rather not do it.. BUT I WOULD :)

You want a classic EQ response?

"The ruling/ban is final. Deal with it."
"Someone corpse camping you on a PvP server for 24/7 so your corpse decays with all items because you were dumb enough to insult the said bard? Deal with it."

[Olscratch]

I really appreciate the 0% chance of ever happening Luclin-era npc casino teaser he gave us.
" In the future we may add gambling NPC's to provide a safe, server friendly way to gamble here on Project 1999, but for the time being there will be no sanctioned gambling on either server."

[Nitsude]

And so a few pages later we learn that in fact scamming is not the primary reason for this ban, but RMT money funneling is. I'll buy you a jump-to-conclusions mat in celebration.

Office Space reference!

[fastboy21]

Have you ever played a card game with friends for money? Made Bets etc? If so, that's illegal. You're not going to have the police knocking down your door for it though.

tell that to my uncle jimmy...he was arrested for playing "pick a hand" with my five year old cousin last christmas. :eek:

[fastboy21]

in all seriousness, i never understood the desire to "gamble" with other players EQ. so i have no way of understanding the level of any disappointment this has for some players, if any.

personally, i liked getting a RNF thread every once in a while from a tool bag that got ripped off and thought anyone was going to help him. it makes me laugh laugh laugh all the night long. i guess its less funny for GMs, so i understand the ban.

[toolshed]

Why are people surprised that a form of entertainment being taken away has made people mad? If anything, the shame should go to the dolts that cried about being scammed.

[Tenlaar]

Why are people surprised

Who is surprised that people are bitching?

[Olscratch]

We hope that this change will make for a safer trading community and help protect the players on our server.

Well that's a nice sentiment but it's well known to most of the server that casinos will do anything to protect their reputation and are considered the most reliable people in the tunnel to help someone with an item or plat transfer. I've done 1000 of em.

Welcome to less safe trading community.

[SavageBeast15]

Best part of the thread is the "discrimination" and the guy who brought up Rosa Parks, but there's also the guy comparing congress to EQ EMU, while at the same time being a moran saying "Is attacking a blue con mob ok anymore" so much good stuff!

[Cyph]

My two cents; obviously there are some people who are upset about the ban because they ran casinos and never generated any negative feedback from it (looking at Tookie -Antonican Gaming Commission-). How about the GMs introduce some kind system around it to legitimatise it. For example, only approved players can run casinos, they need to pay some kind of fee and provide collateral (i.e. insurance) in case anything goes bad. Anyone found to be running a casino illegally = ban.

Thoughts?

[Tenlaar]

Thoughts?

Casino's will never return.

[Cyph]

^ Well, they did mention NPC casinos ;)

[Ella`Ella]

I am all ears for suggestions on how to fix the real problem.



It's actually far less work. It's definitely easier from a CSR Investigations standpoint to just prohibit their use completely.

If you're trying to fix RMT, you need to devalue in game currency until the risk no longer outweighs the reward. If you look to the case of Supremacy, he claims to have made $42,000. If you think of that practically for him, that's 4 years of education at a state university. Therefore, the risk < reward.

There are several ways to devalue currency...Lower cost of Peridots, Port Stones, Sky keys, Rubies, recharges (especially the 100k/charge cost on Staff of Forbidden Rites), etc...However, I feel like the staff wants to revalue currency, which increases the real life value price per plat. (This of course omits the possibility of lowering drop rates on currently expensive items including BCG, VS legs, Trak BP's, etc...)

If you're looking to sap plat out of the economy and reduce ways of laundering plat for RMT, an NPC with rare goods is definitely a way to go. However, I would add a twist to increase scarcity. I advocate an NPC that sells things like a guise for 1million plat for selfish reasons, but I know that I would personally buy 1 the first day that NPC went live. HOWEVER, I also know that if I knew that NPC would always be around I would defer buying one for another char for an indefinite period of time which would keep plat in velocity (circulation in the economy). Given that tid-bit, if you put an NPC that sold items like guise and staff of endless adventure (only item i want!!!) on an NPC and I knew that NPC would be for a very limited time (this NPC could make random INFREQUENT guest appearances in the future), I would buy 2-3 guises on day one. That's 2-3million plat right there and as per my conversation in teamspeak about this earlier, I could estimate approximately 15mil out of the economy on day one(ish).

[zforrestal]

If you're trying to fix RMT, you need to devalue in game currency until the risk no longer outweighs the reward. If you look to the case of Supremacy, he claims to have made $42,000. If you think of that practically for him, that's 4 years of education at a state university. Therefore, the risk < reward.

There are several ways to devalue currency...Lower cost of Peridots, Port Stones, Sky keys, Rubies, recharges (especially the 100k/charge cost on Staff of Forbidden Rites), etc...However, I feel like the staff wants to revalue currency, which increases the real life value price per plat. (This of course omits the possibility of lowering drop rates on currently expensive items including BCG, VS legs, Trak BP's, etc...)

If you're looking to sap plat out of the economy and reduce ways of laundering plat for RMT, an NPC with rare goods is definitely a way to go. However, I would add a twist to increase scarcity. I advocate an NPC that sells things like a guise for 1million plat for selfish reasons, but I know that I would personally buy 1 the first day that NPC went live. HOWEVER, I also know that if I knew that NPC would always be around I would defer buying one for another char for an indefinite period of time which would keep plat in velocity (circulation in the economy). Given that tid-bit, if you put an NPC that sold items like guise and staff of endless adventure (only item i want!!!) on an NPC and I knew that NPC would be for a very limited time (this NPC could make random INFREQUENT guest appearances in the future), I would buy 2-3 guises on day one. That's 2-3million plat right there and as per my conversation in teamspeak about this earlier, I could estimate approximately 15mil out of the economy on day one(ish).


Well said..

My two cents; obviously there are some people who are upset about the ban because they ran casinos and never generated any negative feedback from it (looking at Tookie -Antonican Gaming Commission-). How about the GMs introduce some kind system around it to legitimatise it. For example, only approved players can run casinos, they need to pay some kind of fee and provide collateral (i.e. insurance) in case anything goes bad. Anyone found to be running a casino illegally = ban.

Thoughts?

Seems simple enough... but I don't think they are going to go back on their word so easily... If they were going to lose enough players maybe.. but they aren't losing any... it'd be different if the whole sever disagreed and decided to quit.. but we know that's not happening..

[Leeyuuduu]

developers should just focus on creating great tools for the playerbase, and then let the players use them to generate the content. Such as the /roll command

This is suppose to be a sandbox I thought. Next lets make instanced dungeons.

I think you have your games confused. EverQuest is not a sandbox game, it never was a sandbox game, it was never meant to be a sandbox game, it never will be a sandbox game. In fact, it's almost the opposite of a sandbox game.

EVE is a sandbox game, UO (at least pre-tram) is a sandbox game, Minecraft is more or less a sandbox game.

So saying that EQ should be more like EVE is kind of retarded.


lol typical american style rulemaking, people too dumb to take care of themselves so big brother needs to step in. sad.

someone has never stepped foot in europe before

[Fiyero]

To all those who think this won't hurt server population, you're wrong. Earlier there were over 1.1 billion people on beta. I just logged in and now there are -33 million. This ban has already crippled the player base.

1.1 billion people play P99 Velious Beta? :confused::rolleyes:

[Fiyero]

Well that's a nice sentiment but it's well known to most of the server that casinos will do anything to protect their reputation and are considered the most reliable people in the tunnel to help someone with an item or plat transfer. I've done 1000 of em.

Welcome to less safe trading community.

Who the heck is that known to? I would NEVER give a Casino operator money or an item for transfers.

If I need to transfer something and a friend isn't on, I will go to a level 60 with a well known guild tag to transfer.

In fact, every thread I've seen about newbies transferring items, that is the suggestion to do so safely. I've not once seen it suggested that going to Casinos is a means of safe transfers.

[redbandit]

I've often used casinos to transfer items. Safe and effective. Shame to see them all have to go.

[Lifebar]

Removing meat gambling from this server is a BLATANT attempt to cover-up GM-run real meat trading. Deru and his jackbooted thugs shut down Greengrocer and laugh all the way to the bank--their pockets full of fine smoked meats. SHAME on you, shame on all of you!

Oh you can buy all the meat you want in Thurgadin once Velious comes out right?
Disgusting. I hope you choke on all of those bear sandwiches.


Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
Frederick Douglass




.

[fastboy21]

Removing meat gambling from this server is a BLATANT attempt to cover-up GM-run real meat trading. Deru and his jackbooted thugs shut down Greengrocer and laugh all the way to the bank--their pockets full of fine smoked meats. SHAME on you, shame on all of you!

Oh you can buy all the meat you want in Thurgadin once Velious comes out right?
Disgusting. I hope you choke on all of those bear sandwiches.


Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.
Frederick Douglass.

i like meat. it's tasty.

[kaev]

Oh nice, I can clear all my characters' ignore lists now, just as I was able to when casinos were banned on my live server. Not a huge quality of life improvement for the server, but an improvement none-the-less.

[Elerial]

If you're trying to fix RMT, you need to devalue in game currency until the risk no longer outweighs the reward. If you look to the case of Supremacy, he claims to have made $42,000. If you think of that practically for him, that's 4 years of education at a state university. Therefore, the risk < reward.

There are several ways to devalue currency...Lower cost of Peridots, Port Stones, Sky keys, Rubies, recharges (especially the 100k/charge cost on Staff of Forbidden Rites), etc...However, I feel like the staff wants to revalue currency, which increases the real life value price per plat. (This of course omits the possibility of lowering drop rates on currently expensive items including BCG, VS legs, Trak BP's, etc...)

If you're looking to sap plat out of the economy and reduce ways of laundering plat for RMT, an NPC with rare goods is definitely a way to go. However, I would add a twist to increase scarcity. I advocate an NPC that sells things like a guise for 1million plat for selfish reasons, but I know that I would personally buy 1 the first day that NPC went live. HOWEVER, I also know that if I knew that NPC would always be around I would defer buying one for another char for an indefinite period of time which would keep plat in velocity (circulation in the economy). Given that tid-bit, if you put an NPC that sold items like guise and staff of endless adventure (only item i want!!!) on an NPC and I knew that NPC would be for a very limited time (this NPC could make random INFREQUENT guest appearances in the future), I would buy 2-3 guises on day one. That's 2-3million plat right there and as per my conversation in teamspeak about this earlier, I could estimate approximately 15mil out of the economy on day one(ish).

You make a valid point, but not everyone on the server, not even a larger population has 3 million plat to spare on a vanity item (in this case, pre-nerf Guise of the Deceiver).
Nor would a large majority of the population even want to spend 3 million plat on that.

Again, it's the 1% versus 99%.

The fact that even such quantities of raw platinum coin exists is troubling. Back in classic & Kunark, rare gems didn't sell for a small fortune. They sold for how much the best vendor would sell you one for.

If anyone is to blame for the broken economy, it's the players themselves demanding exorbitant prices and idiots meeting their demands.
Example: The caster onky 40/30 staff, 300k. Who would be retarded enough to buy that? Why is the person even selling it for such a price? Are item prices now judged on their stats NO MATTER who can actually use them?

[Pheer]

If you're trying to fix RMT, you need to devalue in game currency until the risk no longer outweighs the reward. If you look to the case of Supremacy, he claims to have made $42,000. If you think of that practically for him, that's 4 years of education at a state university. Therefore, the risk < reward.

There are several ways to devalue currency...Lower cost of Peridots, Port Stones, Sky keys, Rubies, recharges (especially the 100k/charge cost on Staff of Forbidden Rites), etc...However, I feel like the staff wants to revalue currency, which increases the real life value price per plat. (This of course omits the possibility of lowering drop rates on currently expensive items including BCG, VS legs, Trak BP's, etc...)

If you're looking to sap plat out of the economy and reduce ways of laundering plat for RMT, an NPC with rare goods is definitely a way to go. However, I would add a twist to increase scarcity. I advocate an NPC that sells things like a guise for 1million plat for selfish reasons, but I know that I would personally buy 1 the first day that NPC went live. HOWEVER, I also know that if I knew that NPC would always be around I would defer buying one for another char for an indefinite period of time which would keep plat in velocity (circulation in the economy). Given that tid-bit, if you put an NPC that sold items like guise and staff of endless adventure (only item i want!!!) on an NPC and I knew that NPC would be for a very limited time (this NPC could make random INFREQUENT guest appearances in the future), I would buy 2-3 guises on day one. That's 2-3million plat right there and as per my conversation in teamspeak about this earlier, I could estimate approximately 15mil out of the economy on day one(ish).

Devaluing currency would just make RMTers have to tweak their pp:dollar ratio a little. The amount of devaluing you'd have to do to make RMT not worth it for them would probably do irreparable damage to the economy.

Also making an npc that sells shit like guises straight up for large amounts of platinum is beyond retarded no matter how short the window to buy it. And it does nothing for stopping RMT plat laundering.

In fact making an npc that sells guises just promotes RMT since most people dont have that kind of pp and would be desperate to get their hands on a guise. If gms announced such a npc would be available tomorrow for 24 hours I would be willing to bet that every RMT'ers plat supply would be dry before the npc was removed again.

[teija]

i vote no NPC guise machine, i like being somewhat rare XD

[bluejam]

thanks for this. was running out of /ignore space.

yes on npc casinos to destroy plat.

[Estu]

Example: The caster onky 40/30 staff, 300k. Who would be retarded enough to buy that? Why is the person even selling it for such a price? Are item prices now judged on their stats NO MATTER who can actually use them?

Are you talking about this (http://wiki.project1999.com/Rod_of_annihilation)? It's very useful for leveling casters since that kind of melee damage is quite effective at lower levels (at least, once you're past the damage cap), even on a caster. Granted, there are cheaper ways to level a caster (e.g. pay someone for PLing services). I also hear that it can be useful even for high level casters in certain situations when soloing and possibly even in groups/raids (not sure about this one; it depends on what else that person has to do in the group/raid; I know that in raids especially, oftentimes classes' utility is very limited, and this item might bolster their utility by giving them something to do during a time when they may not be very active, e.g. a mage fighting a raid boss that has extremely high resists). Finally, it's just a cool and unique item because it lets your caster do so much more melee DPS than they normally would be able to, even if it's not good DPS compared to a monk or rogue or what-have-you.

Disclaimer: I'd never buy this item for anywhere near its market price. But I don't think it's fair to assume that just because someone buys an item for a huge price, they're a moron. I know Tecmos bought at least one of these and if you read up on stuff like the solo artist challenge thread, you'll know that he is an extremely capable player. (At least, I think it was Tecmos... I had a conversation with someone a while back about the item)

[nilbog]

You won't be seeing legacy items sold for platinum by npcs. Sorry.

[Estu]

Addendum:

[Fri Oct 11 20:03:37 2013] Tecmosbardone auctions, 'WTB Rod of Annihilation 300k'
[Fri Oct 11 20:03:52 2013] You told tecmosbardone, 'what are you buying that for?'
[Fri Oct 11 20:04:00 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'Necro alt :)'
[Fri Oct 11 20:04:24 2013] You told Tecmosbardone, 'heh sounds fun'
[Fri Oct 11 20:04:32 2013] You told Tecmosbardone, 'going with that + tola robe?'
[Fri Oct 11 20:07:44 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'yeah, sorry. tell hell'
[Fri Oct 11 20:07:52 2013] You told Tecmosbardone, 'np'
[Fri Oct 11 20:07:55 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, '1 good hit at 20 is like 2 ticks worth of dots'
[Thu Dec 19 08:27:15 2013] Tecmosbardone auctions, 'WTB Rod of Annihilation 300k'
[Thu Dec 19 08:27:40 2013] You told tecmosbardone, 'weren't you trying to buy one of those like three months ago lol'
[Thu Dec 19 08:31:02 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'Yeah, have been trying since!'
[Thu Dec 19 08:31:17 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'Tecmos hasnt had one since i made my necro :('
[Thu Dec 19 08:31:40 2013] You told Tecmosbardone, 'wait you want two?'
[Thu Dec 19 08:33:04 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'Yeah, I dont like transfering it every time I want to play the other character :p'
[Thu Dec 19 08:33:15 2013] You told Tecmosbardone, 'lol wow you really must have a ton of money to blow'
[Thu Dec 19 08:33:23 2013] You told Tecmosbardone, 'if you can't be assed to transfer a 300k item =p'
[Thu Dec 19 08:33:37 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'It's true :p'
[Thu Dec 19 08:33:57 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'Not really BLOWING the money though, since it is a rare, cool, fun item that doesnt drop anymore'
[Thu Dec 19 08:34:08 2013] You told Tecmosbardone, 'that you can transfer perfectly easily =p'
[Thu Dec 19 08:34:58 2013] You told Tecmosbardone, 'so when do you use it on tecmos'
[Thu Dec 19 08:35:35 2013] You told Tecmosbardone, 'also do you suppose it would be usable as a pet weapon? that would be hilarious'
[Thu Dec 19 08:36:37 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'Lol'
[Thu Dec 19 08:37:17 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'I use it on tecmos if I'm bored in a raid, when Im farming lower-level stuff like droga or faction in someplace like blackburrow, when I want to help a group out from out of the group, et'
[Thu Dec 19 08:37:38 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'Save and Loraen actually use theirs in real groups for extra dps'
[Thu Dec 19 08:37:47 2013] You told Tecmosbardone, 'I see'
[Thu Dec 19 08:38:10 2013] Tecmosbardone tells you, 'I do 15-20 dps with it on trash in sky, lol'

[heartbrand]

If you look to the case of Supremacy, he claims to have made $42,000. If you think of that practically for him, that's 4 years of education at a state university.


What school are you going to? College cost me 41k a year

[Pringles]

What school are you going to? College cost me 41k a year

Unless you're talking med school or some sort of flight school.... you got ripped off, sir.

[Ella`Ella]

What school are you going to? College cost me 41k a year

4 years of education at a state university.

Unless you went to an Ivy League (or the comparable) no private university is worth 40k+/yr.

[Ella`Ella]

You won't be seeing legacy items sold for platinum by npcs. Sorry.

Is consideration being given to a scenario like the Casinos in Luclin where you could win a Gold Ticket and turn it in for a chance at a guise or other (mostly worthless) items?

[zforrestal]

Devaluing currency would just make RMTers have to tweak their pp:dollar ratio a little. The amount of devaluing you'd have to do to make RMT not worth it for them would probably do irreparable damage to the economy.

Also making an npc that sells shit like guises straight up for large amounts of platinum is beyond retarded no matter how short the window to buy it. And it does nothing for stopping RMT plat laundering.

In fact making an npc that sells guises just promotes RMT since most people dont have that kind of pp and would be desperate to get their hands on a guise. If gms announced such a npc would be available tomorrow for 24 hours I would be willing to bet that every RMT'ers plat supply would be dry before the npc was removed again.



Yet devaluing currency is the ONLY way to stop RMT's... you have to take the real money value OUT... as I said the ban on Casinos isn't going to stop RMT's or decrease how often they happen.. It apparently only helps be able to track down people who RMT, the casino ban did nothing more but make work "easier" for GM's instead of them actually attacking the issue, which is monetary value on pixels.

I still want to know if the GM's plan to stop RMT's from happening completely, or do they realize that it's going to happen regardless as long as there is value to plat, and if they already realize that RMT's are always going to happen then why the casino ban, doesn't make sense... except laziness... Or we'll go with a tinfoil hat theory here... The GM's are actually behind the RMT's and don't like when other people are making money without their involvement... so ban casinos make it easier to control the transfers... (again my tinfoil hat theory)


(Also can someone tell me what the big issue with RMT? Is it a legality issue, fear the server might get shut down, because people are making money, or is it just a GM rule that strongly enforce? I'm guessing it's fear that SOE will come shut down the server.)


Also I heard something about a Petition going around? If this was a GM ruling only then why were players asked to weigh in their opinions?

[Portasaurus]

Worst thread of 2014... Possibly ever.

/cry

See everybody at "the bookstore"!

Yes THE BOOKSTORE! Offering many of your favorite "authors'" "material" to enjoy on-site, such as Jack Black, Lou Rette, Bach Arrat, and many more!!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-S9EP4ovpGOs/TaT8O_CR3cI/AAAAAAAAAI4/jnCR6AsFMgM/s1600/Door.jpg

[Derubael]

Yet devaluing currency is the ONLY way to stop RMT's... you have to take the real money value OUT... as I said the ban on Casinos isn't going to stop RMT's or decrease how often they happen.. It apparently only helps be able to track down people who RMT, the casino ban did nothing more but make work "easier" for GM's instead of them actually attacking the issue, which is monetary value on pixels.


(Also can someone tell me what the big issue with RMT? Is it a legality issue, fear the server might get shut down, because people are making money, or is it just a GM rule that strongly enforce? I'm guessing it's fear that SOE will come shut down the server.)


Also I heard something about a Petition going around? If this was a GM ruling only then why were players asked to weigh in their opinions?

Lowering or raising the real world monetary value of platinum does nothing to curb RMT. The only way to effectively reduce RMT is to attack the buyers and the sellers in every way possible in order to affect both supply and demand. This means both the "retail" re-sellers with their own websites and "brand names", as well as the people who sell to the re-sellers. Whether or not casinos play a part in this enterprise isn't something I'm going to get into here, but it's hard to fully grasp without being able to see what I see. Regardless, combating RMT effectively on Project 1999 is an ever evolving process.

Banning buyers lowers demand. When buyers get banned and spread the word that your $300 investment in platinum is going to go down the drain, buyers are much more cautious and in many cases skip purchasing entirely. When re-sellers get hit, the impact on their stock can potentially mean $1000's of dollars in lost revenue - revenue they have to make up by buying from their sources. Banning the sources removes the resellers way to re-stock after a ban. The problem being that there will always be people who are ready to sell out at some point or another. Basically, we can slow RMT down to a crawl - there may even be months long "dry spells" where there simply is no platinum except from the little independent sellers - but eliminating it entirely is difficult.

One thing I can say with certainty is that the buyer always loses when participating in RMT. The sellers don't care if you get banned, they've already made their money. Their only concern will be in protecting you as a repeat customer, but in the end they won't lose any sleep over your $500 investment in platinum getting banned. The only time they care is when we hit them where it counts - their real life pocket books.

Back onto the topic of casinos, I'm not sure what you're referring to with the petition thing? I don't think we ever asked for anyone's opinion. Maybe I asked offhand about it on Monday Night stream or something. Either way, the Casino ban is here to stay.

[zforrestal]

Also, can we have the names of said people that were using casinos as a cover for RMT's? You say it's been happening, so I'll assume those people have been banned.. so a list of names should be easy to produce .. I think we'd all like to know what casinos we've played at that were part of this terrible scheme.


Edit: Lowering or raising the real world monetary value of platinum does nothing to curb RMT.
Umm I have to disagree.... as someone put if the risk is greater than the reward people probably wont be on either end of the curb. What is giving the real life value to plat? The LIMITED access to resource plat. If you make plat worth $5 per every 100k or 1 million plat.. I highly doubt someone is going to be buying or selling plat (or items) anytime soon.. Risk is greater than the reward... so it's possible.. now HOW to do that I don't know... except making everything easily available. Maybe you're right I might never fully understand the big picture because I can't see what you see, but what I can see is a solution that doesn't require the ban of casinos... also I don't think you answered this for me. "Can someone tell me what the big issue with RMT? Is it a legality issue, fear the server might get shut down, because people are making money, or is it just a GM rule that strongly enforce? I'm guessing it's fear that SOE will come shut down the server".. Call me an idiot sure, but I really don't have a definitive answer and I'd like to know.


hypothetically speaking... if we were able to stop all RMT's from happening.. Player Run casinos would be allowed correct? Cuz I'll figure out your RMT issue just give me time lol


Also about the petition thing... seems like everyone who talked to me when I logged back on for the first time this week told me about a petition, about a Ban against casinos that was started by the GM's..... so that's why I asked about it.. even hearing it a week ago it sounded weird to me that the GM's would start a petition.... I figured if it was true, it was to see if the majority of players didn't like casinos.

[Derubael]

Whether or not casinos play a part in this enterprise isn't something I'm going to get into here, but it's hard to fully grasp without being able to see what I see.

[zforrestal]

Ok, so as far as I'm concerned they don't play into RMT's as there's no proof.(you obviously hold more of the picture than I do, but I can only go by my own perception) All that aside why is RMT such a bad thing?

[Rais]

This Fraps is now worthy to be posted in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut2PPbnb0ZA

[nilbog]

Is consideration being given to a scenario like the Casinos in Luclin where you could win a Gold Ticket and turn it in for a chance at a guise or other (mostly worthless) items?

No, not at this time. I believe even items which provide aesthetic effects are not worthless.

[Ella`Ella]

I believe even items which provide aesthetic effects are not worthless.

I don't believe they're worthless either. I'd pay a million for the fireworks staff, too!

[zforrestal]

*sigh* mumbles to himself... "winner, care to try again?" lights firework. :(

[daasgoot]

lol typical american style rulemaking, people too dumb to take care of themselves so big brother needs to step in. sad.

This^


Also,

Due to numerous issues resulting from player run casinos and to reflect similar policies enacted on Live during classic, as well as other MMORPG's, we have decided to prohibit the operation, advertisement, or use of "casinos", including, but not limited to, dice rolls, card games, "guessing" games, and any other form of gambling. Please use your best discretion when determining what constitutes "gambling".

We hope that this change will make for a safer trading community and help protect the players on our server. In the future we may add gambling NPC's to provide a safe, server friendly way to gamble here on Project 1999, but for the time being there will be no sanctioned gambling on either server.

Violation of these rules will result in immediate account discipline. There will be no exceptions and no second chances. We will provide a 24 hour grace period from the creation of this post to allow our players to adjust to the new rules.

http://www.pictures88.com/p/care_bears/care_bears_002.gif

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

ya but GM this is leik rosa park n congris n holokoss rapped n 1!!

u cant do this u FUKKS u wil RIGRET

[kruptcy]

Umm I have to disagree.... as someone put if the risk is greater than the reward people probably wont be on either end of the curb. What is giving the real life value to plat? The LIMITED access to resource plat. If you make plat worth $5 per every 100k or 1 million plat.. I highly doubt someone is going to be buying or selling plat (or items) anytime soon.. Risk is greater than the reward... so it's possible..

This makes me irrationally angry that someone could think that changing the supply of plat will have ANY effect on the amount of RMT transactions taking place. The GM's dont *MAKE* plat worth a certain dollar value, players do that. Pretend you can buy 1k plat for $1, and with that 1k plat you can buy a.... I don't know, a bone chip. Now say the devs do something to make plat 10x easier to obtain. In Silly-Logic-Land that would discourage plat buyers because that 1k plat only goes 10% as far as it did before the change, so they would not want to spend $10 on it to buy that same bone chip. In Reality-Land, where Derubael lives, people would now charge 10k plat for the bone chip, and plat sellers would now sell 10k plat for $1 (having absolutely NO EFFECT on the illegal activities the GMs are seeking to eliminate.)

[Derubael]

In Reality-Land, where Derubael lives, people would now charge 10k plat for the bone chip, and plat sellers would now sell 10k plat for $1 (having absolutely NO EFFECT on the illegal activities the GMs are seeking to eliminate.)

This put a smile on my face and made me snicker on a day where smiles have been hard to find :) thank you.

"Can someone tell me what the big issue with RMT? Is it a legality issue, fear the server might get shut down, because people are making money, or is it just a GM rule that strongly enforce? I'm guessing it's fear that SOE will come shut down the server".

This question has been answered many times in the past. No one is calling you an idiot, though if you are interested in finding your answers there was a massive RMT ban wave back in March, with a news an announcement post to go along with it, that should have some answers. There's a bunch of reasons why we don't allow it (and why every MMORPG ever has made the buying and trading of in-game items for real world currency against the rules - some just enforce it more than others).

As an aside, I'm still not sure what this petition you are referring to is. There was never, to my knowledge, any kind of petition or poll. This was something we decided privately in a GM meeting the night the ruling came down.

[kaev]

ya but GM this is leik rosa park n congris n holokoss rapped n 1!!

u cant do this u FUKKS u wil RIGRET

You've been red too long Yums, that yellow chat spam constantly pissing on your head has turned your brain into artificially-flavored banana jello.

/mourn

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

my brian is broken

BROKEN

Seriously though I'd be all over these people regardless of degradation to my pea-sized brain. Rosa Parks. LOL

[-Alcoholic-]

Ha ha i rage quit after i lost my 2nd CoF and 3rd Fungi in under 2 months.... i payed out over 380k in prizes before that.. I attempt to log back in next day after i cooled off. I appologized to the guy and arranged to pay him his reward in a PM. I see my account is banned. I read all the threads about it and see that my ban is due to defrauding another player... I totally agree with that decision... I was a mental wreck when i /q'ed on that guy and I deserve what happened... i didnt "scam" anyone but him.. i didnt attempt to "scam" anyone before him... it was just a moment of weakness.

Im sorry to all involved if i had a hand in ending the EQ gambling scene...

ALTHOUGH... everything i have read about this leads me to conclude that my specific scenario is being used by staff to take your gambling privilege away... NOT because gambling, in and of itself, has caused grief to the community beyond the annoyance of having to filter your chat window. But, because it has made it harder to detect RMT.. taking away a beautiful layer of the game for no reason other than that they are understaffed and over worked.

I guess i can understand that to some degree... and in other ways i cant understand that at all.

smoke and mirrors

[Champion_Standing]

I've been saying this needs to happen for years, good job staff.

[Derubael]

Ha ha i rage quit after i lost my 2nd CoF and 3rd Fungi in under 2 months.... i payed out over 380k in prizes before that.. I attempt to log back in next day after i cooled off. I appologized to the guy and arranged to pay him his reward in a PM. I see my account is banned. I read all the threads about it and see that my ban is due to defrauding another player... I totally agree with that decision... I was a mental wreck when i /q'ed on that guy and I deserve what happened... i didnt "scam" anyone but him.. i didnt attempt to "scam" anyone before him... it was just a moment of weakness.

Im sorry to all involved if i had a hand in ending the EQ gambling scene...

ALTHOUGH... everything i have read about this leads me to conclude that my specific scenario is being used by staff to take your gambling privilege away... NOT because gambling, in and of itself, has caused grief to the community beyond the annoyance of having to filter your chat window. But, because it has made it harder to detect RMT.. taking away a beautiful layer of the game for no reason other than that they are understaffed and over worked.

I guess i can understand that to some degree... and in other ways i cant understand that at all.

smoke and mirrors

Had nothing to do with you, and I don't think we've ever once stated that the dispute that involved you affected this decision, so not sure where people would get that from.

Even if we had the proper staff, we wouldn't go sorting through casino trade logs in the volume required for what I need. There's simply too many trades. Again, this is something that's difficult to understand unless you can see what I see.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Do you see what I see?

[Portasaurus]

... blonde.... brunette..... redhead.... gnome ....

http://musicians4freedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/matrix-operator-700x393-500x280.jpg

[Swindle]

... blonde.... brunette..... redhead.... gnome ....

http://musicians4freedom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/matrix-operator-700x393-500x280.jpg

LOL

Goatfist

[Bboboo]

ITT: People who have never ran a query.

[-Alcoholic-]

Had nothing to do with you, and I don't think we've ever once stated that the dispute that involved you affected this decision, so not sure where people would get that from.

Even if we had the proper staff, we wouldn't go sorting through casino trade logs in the volume required for what I need. There's simply too many trades. Again, this is something that's difficult to understand unless you can see what I see.

Yeah i guess you are right.. i was just reading into the anti casino threads a bit too much.

It just seemed like a witch hunt in the beginning with people getting so flared up about something they cannot or will not understand. I "know" these other casino operators ... its hard not to know people you talk to on a daily basis and (although my word is no good anymore) almost all of them are absolute kings (and queens). There was definitely an overwhelming response from everyone other than Proaero (who i have reconciled with and promised to repay when and if circumstances allow). Its was difficult to not correlate what happened with me and the ban on casinos. I would definitely be pulling my hair out if I had to step into your shoes... I have no perspective on what you go through on a daily basis and i apologize if my last statement offended you or any of the other staff Derubael.

[Olscratch]

ALTHOUGH... everything i have read about this leads me to conclude that my specific scenario is being used by staff to take your gambling privilege away... NOT because gambling, in and of itself, has caused grief to the community beyond the annoyance of having to filter your chat window. But, because it has made it harder to detect RMT.. taking away a beautiful layer of the game for no reason other than that they are understaffed and over worked.

Had nothing to do with you, and I don't think we've ever once stated that the dispute that involved you affected this decision, so not sure where people would get that from.


Really?

You're not sure why people would think that - after casinos have held a legitimate place on this server for 5 years, and here 2 weeks after Alcoholic's "scam" all legitimate casinos + serverwidegambling is suddenly blanket prohibition without any discussion or reasoning given?


Also:
Due to numerous issues resulting from player run casinos and to reflect similar policies enacted on Live during classic, as well as other MMORPG's, we have decided to prohibit the operation, advertisement, or use of "casinos"

We hope that this change will make for a safer trading community and help protect the players on our server. In the future we may add gambling NPC's to provide a safe, server friendly way to gamble here on Project 1999


Those two things are contradictory and false. SoE had no anti player-run casino policy during classic on Live. And the NPC casino is a LDoN era feature. Many of us had classic experiences with player-run casinos on live classic. Though they're posts of people bitching and slightly post classic era, here's a few servers where player-run casinos were commonplace.


Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:05 pm
Arvor
On Povar, most of the casinos I see run about 55/45 in favor of the operator. I suspect those are honest, though I certainly wouldn't waste my time with them. I can find easier and quicker ways to delete 55% of my plat.:smileyhappy:

Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:48 pm
Mr-Cowbell
I'll admit it I run a scam in the bazaar. Just kidding- every now and then I will auction off my ignore list to the bazaar- for some sad reason there are no takers. Oh well they seem to be less prevalant on my new home of Lans T'vyl. Prexus had them really bad for a while.

Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:13 pm
Theramor-GoV
Personally I hate the "casinos" that are all over the Veeshan Bazaar. These days I've gotten into the habit of not only reducing my clipping plane but stopping shouts before I go in the bazaar.

source : http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/soearchive/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17819

Zzirus
12-18-2003, 12:55 PM
WOW that is an awesome idea Njokiel I hope that is the truth.

I tried to start a casino on one of my alts and lost 20k to players so I have learned my lesson from gambling.
http://www.eqcleric.com/archive/index.php/t-6287.html

#1 May 05 2004 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
The Honorable czaemon
Sage
***
3,937 posts
If you don't intend to be a traditional everquest casino (AKA scam people,) then please, for the love of god, use a calculator. I was just wandering through the bazaar today when I heard a shout.
soandso shout "Casino open at stables! /rand 1000, 600+ gets twice your money, under 600 gets half your bet back!!!"

Now. Anyone else see something wrong with that? Noting the rather favorable odds I headed over. I placed a 20 plat bet to start with, then doubled my bet after each win. Thanks for the 18kplat. Next time, perhaps, make sure your odds are favorable to you? It helps to have a calculator sometimes too, that way you don't try to payout 7k when you should be paying 5.5k... (I actually told her about that, although I didn't bother pointing out that her odds were less-than-favorable.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=1&mid=1083799533196412246

Antonius-Bayle apparently had them,

Cruzader
Orc Raider
(No subject)
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2003, 09:14:12 am »
I would never gamble with a lvl 1 char (mule) or with anyone not guilded, to much risk and to much pain in the ass killing someone later.
http://www.antonius-bayle.org/index.php?topic=1517.30

03-03-2003, 06:41 AM #13
Guy
Default Re: RNG in eq
Adding some anecdotal observations regarding /random:

In casinoing (/random 1 1000) certain trends do show up. Streaks show up in similar numbers, for instance, I have been told by another casinoer (this is what we do when we have no one playing, we talk about how un-random /random is :P) that if someone rolls a 900+ twice within a short period of time, that trend tends to continue. I can't confirm that, but it was mentioned to me. However, it is a trend I have noticed that at times numbers within a hundreds range can show up "clustered" as you call it, with numbers outside of that range coming up infrequently.
http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8890

Your prohibition stripped a classic feature from the server while you're claiming you've made it more classic. That's ain't right.

[zforrestal]

This makes me irrationally angry that someone could think that changing the supply of plat will have ANY effect on the amount of RMT transactions taking place.


Ok, so say for example the GM's put up a vendor that would give you any item you want and all the plat you want.. since the availability for everyone to get the same item has increased, the value of each item decreases.. now for this example could you see anyone taking the risk to sell or buy items with real money? Of course not.. why? Everything is available, which means it's worthless since anyone can get anything. I have changed the supply of plat and items, and I'm fairly confidant that no RMT's would happen if this was the scenario that the server decided to do....

of course that would never happen because the integrity of the game would be gone... but that handles your RMT issues.. so lets start making Vendors that give away free plat and items.

[Haynar]

Do you see what I see?
I see dead people ....

[JayN]

down with illicit norrathian patronage; just say no to gambling casinos

[kruptcy]

Your prohibition stripped a classic feature from the server while you're claiming you've made it more classic. That's ain't right.

On Innoruuk during this time period casinos were banned. I understand that it was different server to server, but them banning casinos doesn't make it less classic, it makes them classic do a different server's standards.

RMTing was not really a problem during this era in live, it just wasn't as pervasive. Just as laws in the real world have to evolve to cover new inventions and innovations, so do the laws in our fantasy world. Just as 200 years ago there was no law against drinking and driving, and now there is, before there was not a need to curb RMTs, and now there is. No one is saying that it doesn't suck that a portion of the game that some people enjoyed needed to be removed in order to protect the legitimacy of the in-game economy; in fact, everyone involved in making the decision has expressed their sorrow that it had to be this way. The sad fact of the matter is, with current resources, it does HAVE to be this way. There are some great suggestions here about how to keep in-game player casinos going in a legitimate way, they would really work if Project 1999 could hire another full-time GM to police them. Unfortunately, they can't.

TL;DR version:

Everyone agrees it sucks, but there are legitimate reasons for banning casinos.
It does not make the server less classic.
Even though you have great ideas about how to make the system work, its best to just drop it and move on.

[kruptcy]

Ok, so say for example the GM's put up a vendor that would give you any item you want and all the plat you want.. since the availability for everyone to get the same item has increased, the value of each item decreases.. now for this example could you see anyone taking the risk to sell or buy items with real money? Of course not.. why? Everything is available, which means it's worthless since anyone can get anything. I have changed the supply of plat and items, and I'm fairly confidant that no RMT's would happen if this was the scenario that the server decided to do....

of course that would never happen because the integrity of the game would be gone... but that handles your RMT issues.. so lets start making Vendors that give away free plat and items.

Great, so you have introduced unlimited availability of items into this scenario in an attempt to prove that increasing the availability of plat is a good strategy to curb RMTs. ALSO, you have constructed a straw-man argument regarding a vendor that gives you any plat and item you want. I am starting to get an idea that economics and well... basic logic? aren't your strong point. Go back to you original argument and defend that, or attempt to defend this argument that is ridiculous on its face, I don't care, but pick one. You are an idiot. Look forward to your response.

[teija]

I ran a legit casino on live on Tallon Zek and then on to Zek from 2000 till ~2005? Never had any problem with GMs/staff on live. not sure why staff would think prohibiting gambling would be "classic".

just my 2 cents.

[Clyve]

Let's change that "may add gambling npcs" to "will add gambling npcs."

That would be awesome as hell (also a way to pull plat out of the economy).

[JayN]

dudes lets get npcs that do everything for us for pp!

theyll be called buff bots no better yet mercs; this is genius !

[Clyve]

dudes lets get npcs that do everything for us for pp!

theyll be called buff bots no better yet mercs; this is genius !

An NPC with a gambling minigame and a shitty merc that wins the game for you are very different things.

[kevoh]

Just as 200 years ago there was no law against drinking and driving, and now there is.

WHO THE FUCK WAS DRIVING 200 YEARS AGO? AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TIME TRAVEL IS REAL!!!!!

[Tpar]

I don't see what the problem is. Apparently, from the evidence presented, on some servers in the classic period it was permitted, and in some servers, it was not. SO?

The server staff here has determined that its not permitted. They operate a free service. You don't have to pay ANYTHING to play. Donations are nice, but as I understand it, they are not required, nor could they require them even if they wanted to.

They set the rules. They can also change those rules. I never participated in the casinos. I routinely added them to my ignore list, so I didn't have to deal with the spam. (I have no problem with gambling, just with the spam)

If/when they (the GM's) choose to permit NPC gambling, you can get your fix.

[Ravager]

I'll bet you twenty plat I can get you gambling before the end of the day!

[skorge]

Need to ban the sell of MQing (targeting epic MQs) on the server as well...this is far from classic, all the MQs being sold...I bet if you looked into it, MQing is the #1 coin exchange on the server....get rid of MQ and items go up in value to more realistic prices (still wont help the fact there are way too many legendary items on the server due to the lack of Velious dropping on time)

ps - you know its bad when you look in the EC forums and see a guild selling MQs lol

[Olscratch]

I don't see what the problem is. Apparently, from the evidence presented, on some servers in the classic period it was permitted, and in some servers, it was not. SO?


No evidence has been shown for the argument that any servers having gambling prohibition during classic.

[zforrestal]

WHO THE FUCK WAS DRIVING 200 YEARS AGO? AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TIME TRAVEL IS REAL!!!!!

Yea he probably also thinks dinosaurs walked around 2000 years ago, just like Sarah Palin did. LOL

[kruptcy]

Yea he probably also thinks dinosaurs walked around 2000 years ago, just like Sarah Palin did. LOL

Ive never seen any two people miss the point of something so hilariously. I chalked the first guy up to trolling, but I know you don't have that capacity. Laid out in plain English for you:

You don't need rules to prevent something if that thing doesn't exist. You didn't need laws against drunk driving when driving didn't exist. In a parallel case, on live during the Kunark era, you didn't need to make rules to combat RMTs because RMTs didn't exist (on a disruptive scale). Now that things have changed, new rules have to be put into place to address problems with these new developments.

Does this make sense to you now or are you still dumb?

[Priceline]

Great work staff!

Idea time:
for the casino running folk who feel discriminated against, perhaps you could later allow them to run npc casino's.. since apparently its about the fun and not the insane amount of money their "winning" from the gamblers right?

I'm sure they wouldn't mind all the money they win being instantly deleted to lower inflation, cause its about the people interaction and not their horde of plat!

[talian21]

As much as I bump heads with Derubael, I have to applaud this move; it is way overdue.

Now, when is MQ going to be gotten rid of? You are not going to even make a serious dent in RMT with MQ sales going on, the demand (and supply) will simply always be there. MQ is an exploit that bypasses the reason NODROP/NOTRADE exists, and just b/c it's a popular exploit, doesn't make it legit.

[kruptcy]

You are not going to even make a serious dent in RMT with MQ sales going on, the demand (and supply) will simply always be there.

I agree with the fact that MQing has become a serious problem. What is the link to RMTs though as far as MQing goes?

[Olscratch]

Guys massive amounts of MQ's, random TMO guys with 6 VP keyed alts + 15million plat, and Chardok Proxy groups are not whats ailing P99. Greengrocer, Tookie, Reince, and Mariachii we're the real villains...and derubael has cleaned house. Problem solved.

[talian21]

MQ turns something that you should be questing, into something that you can simply buy. RMT'ing is buying stuff (with real money) and the No. 1 thing ppl are willing to pay for, as one example, is Epic's.

This does not even begin to cover how much enjoyment of the game is lost when someone actually tries to quest something, only to find some asshole farmer cock-blocking them, often leaving them no choice but to pay for it. With MQ'ing gone, MQ farmers will disappear, and ppl can actually *play* instead of pay.

Another way to think about it is this? What possible benefit does MQ have to anyone, but some asshole platfarmer, while ruining the fun of someone trying to actually play the game? The NODROP tag exists for a reason, and it's not to use some exploit to circumvent it.

[kruptcy]

I agree wholeheartedly that MQing is detrimental to the player experience on the server.

[Estu]

MQ turns something that you should be questing, into something that you can simply buy. RMT'ing is buying stuff (with real money) and the No. 1 thing ppl are willing to pay for, as one example, is Epic's.

This does not even begin to cover how much enjoyment of the game is lost when someone actually tries to quest something, only to find some asshole farmer cock-blocking them, often leaving them no choice but to pay for it. With MQ'ing gone, MQ farmers will disappear, and ppl can actually *play* instead of pay.

Another way to think about it is this? What possible benefit does MQ have to anyone, but some asshole platfarmer, while ruining the fun of someone trying to actually play the game? The NODROP tag exists for a reason, and it's not to use some exploit to circumvent it.

This is rather off-topic but I'll bite.

1) Suppose you remove MQs. The demand for the relevant items is the same, but now the people who need those items are camping them instead of the people selling the MQs. How does this affect people trying to get the items? If a camp is annoying because it's in high demand before MQs are removed, the camp will still be in high demand after MQs are removed. I don't see how the experience of being annoyed at a camp being highly contested is different whether you're competing with a fellow person who needs that item themselves versus a so-called "asshole farmer cockblocker".

2) What possible benefit does MQ have to people? It gives them the ability to avoid doing annoying, highly-contested camps. If I can farm up 8k in a few hours doing a camp I enjoy and pay for a JBoots MQ, I'd rather do that then go to OOT and deal with the highly-contested AC camp. Clear benefit.

I'd like to add that one can make valid arguments against MQing - e.g. that its prevalence on this server is not classic since it was largely unknown on live during classic era. I just don't believe the points you brought up are valid ones.

[zforrestal]

Ive never seen any two people miss the point of something so hilariously. I chalked the first guy up to trolling, but I know you don't have that capacity. Laid out in plain English for you:

You don't need rules to prevent something if that thing doesn't exist. You didn't need laws against drunk driving when driving didn't exist. In a parallel case, on live during the Kunark era, you didn't need to make rules to combat RMTs because RMTs didn't exist (on a disruptive scale). Now that things have changed, new rules have to be put into place to address problems with these new developments.

Does this make sense to you now or are you still dumb?

Yet I use a ridiculous situation, and you FAILED to miss the bigger picture.. *facepalm* also why don't you just stop with the name calling.... our views are different doesn't make any one of us less intelligent, but to attack the reader with insults based on a difference of views, shows who has the real lack of intelligence. So say what you want to say, but do it without the very lame insults like dumb, or calling people an idiot when you say things like people were driving 200 years ago, referring to motor vehicles.

Anyway, lets seriously figure out how to kill RMTs, yes my scenario was very extreme but regardless it still shows an example of how to kill RMTs (Mind you the "straw-man" vendor idea would mean running a casino would be pointless) I wasn't saying that's what should be done.. but what if RMTs were such an issue that the server was in a lawsuit and was either forced to shut down or figure a way to kill RMTs completely as there is no a solution yet, wouldn't my "straw-man" vendor theory work? (I mean unless people would still buy things even though it's free for them to get, which I highly doubt) would you rather the server shut down, or have everything free and still be able to play EQ on the p99 server?

Now if we can't stop RMTs without greatly changing the game, what about looking at the other problem that was brought up? As Deru pointed out, I don't see what he sees, so I don't know all the issues that come with RMTs. I'm guessing having secure trading would also help with tracking down RMTs. Someone had mentioned to me about something that was released later on, a "vendor mode" to be able to sell your wares. I don't know anything about it, but how he put it, it seemed like it would help with secure trading. Again I don't know anything about it, so I could be wrong.

[kruptcy]

I don't see how the experience of being annoyed at a camp being highly contested is different whether you're competing with a fellow person who needs that item themselves versus a so-called "asshole farmer cockblocker".

I can understand where you are coming from, but I think you overlook all of the level 1 rogues and clerics with their epics. Those low levels would not be able to compete for the relevant camps with their higher level counterparts. Similarly, I was in a KC group recently when a metal pipe dropped. Several people in the group wanted to random against the monk for the item because they could sell the MQ, when the monk himself needed the pipe to advance his epic quest. Eliminating MQs would indeed not eliminate overcrowded camps, but it would eliminate people camping enemies that ONLY drop epic pieces for other classes with MQing for plat in mind.

[talian21]

This is rather off-topic but I'll bite.

1) Suppose you remove MQs. The demand for the relevant items is the same, but now the people who need those items are camping them instead of the people selling the MQs. How does this affect people trying to get the items? If a camp is annoying because it's in high demand before MQs are removed, the camp will still be in high demand after MQs are removed. I don't see how the experience of being annoyed at a camp being highly contested is different whether you're competing with a fellow person who needs that item themselves versus a so-called "asshole farmer cockblocker".

2) What possible benefit does MQ have to people? It gives them the ability to avoid doing annoying, highly-contested camps. If I can farm up 8k in a few hours doing a camp I enjoy and pay for a JBoots MQ, I'd rather do that then go to OOT and deal with the highly-contested AC camp. Clear benefit.


These are excellent arguments for rich players. And also for players who want items without having to put in the work for them. It pretty much leaves everyone else (those who are not rich, and those *who'd actually like to play (not pay) the game*) in the cold.

1.) Because the asshole cockblocker will no longer be there to compete with.
2.) I would argue that letting you get gear you didn't earn is not a benefit to the server, just you.

[Estu]

These are excellent arguments for rich players. And also for players who want items without having to put in the work for them. It pretty much leaves everyone else (those who are not rich, and those *who'd actually like to play (not pay) the game*) in the cold.

1.) Because the asshole cockblocker will no longer be there to compete with.
2.) I would argue that letting you get gear you didn't earn is not a benefit to the server, just you.

But I did earn that gear, by earning the plat to buy the MQ. The market has established some value on that piece of gear (say, 8k for Jboots). If I earn that piece of gear by camping it directly or by paying someone else to camp it for me, with platinum that I earned, then either way, I earned it. You're acting like there are "rich players" who just magically have platinum that falls into their laps, but I worked hard to level up characters who are capable of farming money (though not expressedly for that purpose) and to farm money for items I want.

In the sense of your argument, there is not much difference between MQs and any gear being sold on EC. Why should anyone be allowed to buy gear in EC if they didn't "earn" it by camping it themselves? We might as well do away with the entire player economy.

[talian21]

But I did earn that gear, by earning the plat to buy the MQ.

No, you didn't. All you did was earn plat. That does not grant you the "right" to no drop gear. The MQ exploit is based on being able to buy nodrop gear, that is nodrop expressly to *stop* it from being something you can buy.

I repeat: "I have plat" does not equal "I deserve nodrop gear I didn't earn"

[talian21]

In the sense of your argument, there is not much difference between MQs and any gear being sold on EC. Why should anyone be allowed to buy gear in EC if they didn't "earn" it by camping it themselves? We might as well do away with the entire player economy.

Etsu, every single solitary thing you have said so far in this thread has been based on one simple fallacy; that there is no difference between droppable, and nodrop gear. There is.

[Priceline]

No, you didn't. All you did was earn plat.

So by this logic anything bought in EC tunnel is not "earned" even though said buyer spent x amount of time farming the plat?

The MQ exploit

no, MQ'ing was allowed on live.. its "classic" and not a bannable offense therefore its not an exploit.

Also note that gear is gear regardless if its drop/no drop properties, the RP server on live for example completely ignored this rule by allowing the trade of "no drop" gear as a way of passing down to new recruits.

[Priceline]

Etsu, every single solitary thing you have said so far in this thread has been based on one simple fallacy; that there is no difference between droppable, and nodrop gear. There is.

Obligatory:
Prove it!

[Anichek]

Add another restriction to the by now gigantic list of rules on P99. Not classic and not fun. I've never been scammed at a player-run "casino" in years and I've played a ton.

I am for the idea of an NPC run casino though...

Omg just had a thought...make it in that Highkeep gambling area !! :)

Need to have one in the Maiden's Fancy in Neriak too. Strippers and pulltabs/slot machines.

[Olscratch]

On Innoruuk during this time period casinos were banned. I understand that it was different server to server, but them banning casinos doesn't make it less classic, it makes them classic do a different server's standards.

Everyone agrees it sucks, but there are legitimate reasons for banning casinos.
It does not make the server less classic.




WRONG. Innoruuk had gambling/casinos and I have evidence. No evidence for any server ever banning gambling. Prohibition indeed made server less classic.

http://innoruukserver.yuku.com/reply/17926/Worst-player-award#.U_eceWM-eRM

Guardya Wahta
Posts: 1575
Mar 17 04 1:51 PM
Ally Poster

Re: Worst player award
Tubaked Good effort and good form, from being accused of stealing to general suckiness you still only end up with 5 votes. Maybe if you work out some casino scams, BoT trains or any other nasty things you can think of your rep might stand a better chance.

^ A player clearly referencing ability to make a player-made casino on Innoruuk server legally at least up until 2004.

Here's some more server's that had legal player-run casinos:

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13512

Gryfalia re: Casino Spammers
Yeah, we have the idiots too.

But if I saw someone giving the odds you mention (0-400 bust, 400-600 double, 600-1000 triple) I would be all over it..;-)

Gryfalia
High Priest of Brell

Druzzil-Ro Server
Gryfalia is offline Reply With Quote

re: Casino Spammers
Varies on the Seventh Hammer, but I have seen it quite a bit. Highly annoying.
__________________
Elven Cleric of Tunare (66)
Member of Outsider Domination on the Seventh Hammer Server

Caleal
BATTLE CLERIC

Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Texas
Posts: 694
Caleal

Yeah, 6 in 10 chance of at least doubling my money, I'm all over that. =)
__________________
Caleal P`Terak
BATTLE CLERIC of Innoruuk, ret
Cazic-Thule server
Shadowed Soul

Corish-MT
On Sabbatical

Corish-MT's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 245
Corish-MT

I see it about once every few weeks on MT - apparently they get such a bad reception on this server that they don't bother. (Of course, I don't even think it was ever popular in the EC tunnel either.) It's definitely not an everyday occurance, if even a weekly event.

Anyone who spams the zone in shout gets /petitioned if I'm the least bit grumpy. You can spam the /auc channel all you want, I don't give a rat's hiney.

Dunno why it's so rare on MT (and we're not as young of a server as we used to be).
__________________
Baron Corish, 54 Vicar of Morell-Thule
(applicant to BCC)

Trynnity
Blue

Trynnity's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 57
Trynnity

Yes, Fennin is plagued with it too ... I would turn off auc, ooc and shout, but I do watch them from time to time while buying or selling in the bazaar.
Trynnity is offline Reply With Quote

Amaryllis
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mason City, Iowa USA
Posts: 72
Amaryllis

Hate to say it but Inny's got them too.

We have a person in the guild who runs one, he make more money running the casino than from playing. Unfortuneately thats the big draw, and some people will try for a jackpot nomatter the odds.

Dal`Kambur

Posts: n/a

Angry
I see those yahoos doing the casino thing in the bazaar on Torv, too. Even MORE spam in an already spam infested zone!! It annoys me to no end.

Shaynnyns

Posts: n/a

yup yup got them casino fools on zeb as well.
Grr... I wish I could shoot whoever first came up with the idea.

Taylen
Gnome punter

Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 110
Taylen

...
Most of the casino runners on Bristlebane (at least the ones I've seen) conduct their business in the Nexus; they get to compete with the porters and the C3 chanters.

Trentazra
Fashion Cleric

Trentazra's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Illinois
Posts: 231
Trentazra is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Trentazra Send a message via AIM to Trentazra

Yep Drinal's got em too hehe. They didn't exist back in the north freeport days, except for the ultra-rare "lottery" where one person would collect bets from everyone and assign a number, then random the whole pile off to one lucky guy. Seems everyone uses 1-3000 as the numbers, with doubles at 1700 or higher, triples at 1995 or higher, and quadruples at 1 or 3000. I had a great time playing at them too (even made a bit of a profit) until I played a casino that q'd out after I won

The invention of casinos has made the back of the bazaar a very very popular place now. I used to be the only one back there, now I share my area with a decent sized crowd of people (casinos on Drinal are almost always run from the stables area).

Trentazra Vim
65 Archon of Drinal
Guardians of the Keep

Dalthor
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Vazaelle
Posts: 7
Dalthor

Vaz has em too...but they don't last long.
__________________
Baron Dalthor Desmevo (da MA vo)
Proud/Drunk Templar of Tunare
Officer to the Order of Antondwer

CONFIRMED EVIDENCE OF PLAYER RUN CASINOS SERVERS:
QUELLIOUS
VEESHAN
MORREL-THULE
ANTONIUS BAYLE
CAZIC-THULE
INNORUUK
THE SEVENTH HAMMER/LANYS T VYL
PREXUS
POVAR
XEGONY/ZEBUXORUK
FENNIN RO/TORVONNILOUS
BRISTLEBANE
DRINAL/TAREW MARR
MAELIN STARPYRE/VAZAELLE

CONFIRMED EVIDENCE OF GAMBLING PROHIBITION SERVERS:
PROJECT PROXYANDMQFEST

[Tenlaar]

I know what server doesn't have player run casinos.

P99!

[kruptcy]

I'd be interested to know if you found any evidence of them actually being allowed, or if the one line about Tubaked is the only reference to casinos on the entire forums. I am sure any other players from Innoruuk will be happy to back up my claim that player run casinos were not permitted on our server.

EDIT: Leaving my original comment but upon further research there are at least a couple references to player run casinos on Inny, maybe they were just so hated they died out relatively quickly. I'll go ahead and admit that you are right on this and I was mistaken.

[Argh]

Evidence that you just wasted a bunch of time for no reason:

WRONG. Innoruuk had gambling/casinos and I have evidence. No evidence for any server ever banning gambling. Prohibition indeed made server less classic.

http://innoruukserver.yuku.com/reply/17926/Worst-player-award#.U_eceWM-eRM

Guardya Wahta
Posts: 1575
Mar 17 04 1:51 PM
Ally Poster

Re: Worst player award
Tubaked Good effort and good form, from being accused of stealing to general suckiness you still only end up with 5 votes. Maybe if you work out some casino scams, BoT trains or any other nasty things you can think of your rep might stand a better chance.

^ A player clearly referencing ability to make a player-made casino on Innoruuk server legally at least up until 2004.

Here's some more server's that had legal player-run casinos:

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13512

Gryfalia re: Casino Spammers
Yeah, we have the idiots too.

But if I saw someone giving the odds you mention (0-400 bust, 400-600 double, 600-1000 triple) I would be all over it..;-)

Gryfalia
High Priest of Brell

Druzzil-Ro Server
Gryfalia is offline Reply With Quote

re: Casino Spammers
Varies on the Seventh Hammer, but I have seen it quite a bit. Highly annoying.
__________________
Elven Cleric of Tunare (66)
Member of Outsider Domination on the Seventh Hammer Server

Caleal
BATTLE CLERIC

Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Texas
Posts: 694
Caleal

Yeah, 6 in 10 chance of at least doubling my money, I'm all over that. =)
__________________
Caleal P`Terak
BATTLE CLERIC of Innoruuk, ret
Cazic-Thule server
Shadowed Soul

Corish-MT
On Sabbatical

Corish-MT's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 245
Corish-MT

I see it about once every few weeks on MT - apparently they get such a bad reception on this server that they don't bother. (Of course, I don't even think it was ever popular in the EC tunnel either.) It's definitely not an everyday occurance, if even a weekly event.

Anyone who spams the zone in shout gets /petitioned if I'm the least bit grumpy. You can spam the /auc channel all you want, I don't give a rat's hiney.

Dunno why it's so rare on MT (and we're not as young of a server as we used to be).
__________________
Baron Corish, 54 Vicar of Morell-Thule
(applicant to BCC)

Trynnity
Blue

Trynnity's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 57
Trynnity

Yes, Fennin is plagued with it too ... I would turn off auc, ooc and shout, but I do watch them from time to time while buying or selling in the bazaar.
Trynnity is offline Reply With Quote

Amaryllis
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mason City, Iowa USA
Posts: 72
Amaryllis

Hate to say it but Inny's got them too.

We have a person in the guild who runs one, he make more money running the casino than from playing. Unfortuneately thats the big draw, and some people will try for a jackpot nomatter the odds.

Dal`Kambur

Posts: n/a

Angry
I see those yahoos doing the casino thing in the bazaar on Torv, too. Even MORE spam in an already spam infested zone!! It annoys me to no end.

Shaynnyns

Posts: n/a

yup yup got them casino fools on zeb as well.
Grr... I wish I could shoot whoever first came up with the idea.

Taylen
Gnome punter

Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 110
Taylen

...
Most of the casino runners on Bristlebane (at least the ones I've seen) conduct their business in the Nexus; they get to compete with the porters and the C3 chanters.

Trentazra
Fashion Cleric

Trentazra's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Illinois
Posts: 231
Trentazra is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to Trentazra Send a message via AIM to Trentazra

Yep Drinal's got em too hehe. They didn't exist back in the north freeport days, except for the ultra-rare "lottery" where one person would collect bets from everyone and assign a number, then random the whole pile off to one lucky guy. Seems everyone uses 1-3000 as the numbers, with doubles at 1700 or higher, triples at 1995 or higher, and quadruples at 1 or 3000. I had a great time playing at them too (even made a bit of a profit) until I played a casino that q'd out after I won

The invention of casinos has made the back of the bazaar a very very popular place now. I used to be the only one back there, now I share my area with a decent sized crowd of people (casinos on Drinal are almost always run from the stables area).

Trentazra Vim
65 Archon of Drinal
Guardians of the Keep

Dalthor
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Vazaelle
Posts: 7
Dalthor

Vaz has em too...but they don't last long.
__________________
Baron Dalthor Desmevo (da MA vo)
Proud/Drunk Templar of Tunare
Officer to the Order of Antondwer

CONFIRMED EVIDENCE OF PLAYER RUN CASINOS SERVERS:
QUELLIOUS
VEESHAN
MORREL-THULE
ANTONIUS BAYLE
CAZIC-THULE
INNORUUK
THE SEVENTH HAMMER/LANYS T VYL
PREXUS
POVAR
XEGONY/ZEBUXORUK
FENNIN RO/TORVONNILOUS
BRISTLEBANE
DRINAL/TAREW MARR
MAELIN STARPYRE/VAZAELLE

CONFIRMED EVIDENCE OF GAMBLING PROHIBITION SERVERS:
PROJECT PROXYANDMQFEST

[Olscratch]

Yeah took a super long time to google player run casino innoruuk and scan all the way to page two of results to find people listing over half the classic servers having player-run casinos. Thanks for your awesome contribution to the thread Argh of A-Team.

[Treats]

Yeah took a super long time to google player run casino innoruuk and scan all the way to page two of results to find people listing over half the classic servers having player-run casinos. Thanks for your awesome contribution to the thread Argh of A-Team.

But Casinos are still banned on P99!

[Ldarax]

Set up your own server and gamble your hearts out.

[JayN]

project EQ casino gais!

[Swish]

Blame the guy who logged out after someone won a fungi or manastone as part of the "1 in 1000" gamble.

I doubt the ban would have happened if people kept their word and paid out.

[scythic]

Player run casinos might be classic, but so was paying $14.99 a month. I am very much not for Classic zealotry when it comes to certain things. I'm not sure that Classic devs would have allowed Casinos if they had realized their ties to RMTs at the time.
If the demand is there for gambling (I'm not sure that it is) then I'd support an NPC gambler.