Classic Feel vs Classic Mechanics

[sox7d]

This server heavily emphasizes the technical parts of staying true to classic, but at what point does the classic feel of 2000 get diminished by such a strict standard?

People grouped much more back then due to being significantly less twinked and ignorant to race/class experience penalties. I think most of us can agree that grouping and dependency is what separates this game from every other current MMO.

Since a wipe is off the table, I believe that an exp penalty to soloing and an experience bonus for more group members were implemented, the server would feel much more classic. Below 50, a group of 2-3 people can hold down most exp camps given 2014 competence and twinking, might as well have an incentive to invite more members if camps are getting cleared regardless.

I'm not asking for this to be implemented, I'm just curious of what you guys think of classic feel vs classic mechanics.

[sox7d]

i like where this thread is going

[Taeoz]

For me, it's classic enough already. Any more tweaks are less likely to add to my enjoyment and some of the tweaks the crazy people here want, would actually diminish it.

Some recent comments that I've seen have mentioned groups not getting filled up or not accepting hybrids/non-twinks. That isn't true as far as my experience. I've had groups in the low levels as a hybrid (even as a Ranger!). The groups have often had less twinks than non-twinks - I think I've yet to have a group that was all twinked characters.

I don't know if things are very different in the 20-60 range, but at the low levels, with my numerous alts, I've been able to enjoy fairly classic experience.

[Lopretni]

This server heavily emphasizes the technical parts of staying true to classic, but at what point does the classic feel of 2000 get diminished by such a strict standard?

People grouped much more back then due to being significantly less twinked and ignorant to race/class experience penalties. I think most of us can agree that grouping and dependency is what separates this game from every other current MMO.

This is why I roll my eyes anytime I hear they wreck something and remove a minor feature because "NOT CLASSIC!!1" This isn't classic either. You will never relive those days. Get over it.

[Swish]

For that classic feel, I hope nobody is using the DoD login screen (that came with Titanium)...

http://i.minus.com/jbyK67EFPHItmZ.png

[Lopretni]

For that classic feel, I hope nobody is using the DoD login screen (that came with Titanium)...

http://i.minus.com/jbyK67EFPHItmZ.png

If people can set their own login screens, the obvious answer is to maliciously prevent people from setting them to whatever they choose. :rolleyes:

[Klapton]

For me, it's classic enough already. Any more tweaks are less likely to add to my enjoyment and some of the tweaks the crazy people here want, would actually diminish it.

Some recent comments that I've seen have mentioned groups not getting filled up or not accepting hybrids/non-twinks. That isn't true as far as my experience. I've had groups in the low levels as a hybrid (even as a Ranger!). The groups have often had less twinks than non-twinks - I think I've yet to have a group that was all twinked characters.

I don't know if things are very different in the 20-60 range, but at the low levels, with my numerous alts, I've been able to enjoy fairly classic experience.

I and my two friends just started here. This has been our experience as well. The twinks are more often the ones soloing, because they can. Those of us who are not twinked are grouping so we can make progress in the game.

The three of us deliberately formed the "holy trinity" so we would have no problems forming groups. But my Bard has had no problems getting groups most of the time, in spite of being very obviously non-twink.

I don't think that tweaking xp to penalize solo play and reward grouping is necessary or desirable. People choose "solo classes" because they want to solo with them. Grouping is already rewarded by greater access to game content.

[Rhambuk]

Classic mechanics are close.

Classic feel not so much, at all. maybe thats just 5 years of the server being out

[Tapped]

I will wholeheartedly agree with both the "2014 competence and twinking" and "1999 ignorance towards race/class experience penalties" comments being very much a real thing... but that's about it. I don't at all see a lack of grouping, nor all too much shunning of penalty-heavy players.

I'm on my second stint playing P1999 right now. The first was in 2011/2012, and once again as of about two months ago. All of this time has been spent below level 30 (it's a syndrome, I can't help it!) and the only thing that has really changed in that time, that I can tell, is the amount of twinking. Though I am twinked fairly well myself, I still see plenty of people who are completely new to the server. This is an observation that is further reinforced in the time I spend in EC, as a tailor. In buying HQ Bear Skins, I can't even begin to tell you how many people come up to me positively giddy at the prospect of getting that 32p for spell money, or their first set of banded.

Additionally, the supertwinks aren't even shunning groups altogether. In the past two days, I've had not one, not two, but FIVE different people pass through my groups sporting a Fungi. Last night, when I was looking for a tank to replace my SHD before logging out, I found one in a guy sporting a Fungi/CoF/the whole nine.

To me, a far more serious problem... one that definitely breaks the "classic feel" completely... is the amount of PLing going on. PLing itself doesn't bother me at all. Rather, it's the fact that it so often takes place in some of the most contested group camps in the game, rather than any of the countless zones that are otherwise completely barren.

[myriverse]

Yup.
1. It really is close enough already, imo. This isn't to say it shouldn't be closer, but there are probably more constructive things to do.
2. The "not classic" crowd is largely a joke. If you're not saying this ironically, then shame on you... unless someone is requesting horses or shared banks or some shit like that.

[Messianic]

One is basically objective inasmuch as we have good knowledge of the facts.

The other is a subjective crapfest of bad arguments and anecdotes.

Sorry, I prefer the former even if it doesn't "feel" like 2000.

[Cippofra]

Classic EQ required you to spend a minimum of 19 hours at a time to get anything done. I'm 28 with a full time job, a toddler, and going to school. I'm too casual of a player to be grouping more than 10 minutes a month. And my situation is probably pretty normal here. There's plenty of people who just don't have the time to be diving into the game for hours at a time.

[sox7d]

Classic EQ required you to spend a minimum of 19 hours at a time to get anything done. I'm 28 with a full time job, a toddler, and going to school. I'm too casual of a player to be grouping more than 10 minutes a month. And my situation is probably pretty normal here. There's plenty of people who just don't have the time to be diving into the game for hours at a time.


Here you go:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm

Might as well use the same logic to implement health potions and mercenaries.

[iruinedyourday]

Here you go:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm

Might as well use the same logic to implement health potions and mercenaries.

Logic? what logic the guy is just saying he doesnt have a lot of time for eq anymore because he is winning.

[heartbrand]

Here you go:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm

Might as well use the same logic to implement health potions and mercenaries.

P99 is one of the easiest MMO's in existence. Hate when people talk about other MMO's as ezmode when you can literally afk your way to 60 and full end game raid loot in EQ.

[Rec]

wow kids couldn't handle the difficulty of p99

[heartbrand]

wow kids couldn't handle the difficulty of p99

Pretty confident that the average p99 player couldn't make it through an LFR

[sox7d]

Logic? what logic the guy is just saying he doesnt have a lot of time for eq anymore because he is winning.

"Winning" and a maturing demographic is the same reason WoW moved to insta-queue dungeons that take less than 10 minutes to complete and have a nearly 0% fail rate. There's a reason we're all playing this instead of that. That's great that he is trying to balance out his life, but I'm just saying that every other MMO mirrors that style of play. This server and EvE are the last bastions of dependent, difficult MMORPGs.



P99 is one of the easiest MMO's in existence. Hate when people talk about other MMO's as ezmode when you can literally afk your way to 60 and full end game raid loot in EQ.

Maybe some classes, but that being said quad kiting and charm soloing are still more difficult and risky than spamming "2" and doing solo fetch quests to level 60 in 1/4th the time it takes.

EQ isn't the hardest game of all time but it is definitely less forgiving and more difficult to solo in than other MMOs. We've all been playing for ~15 years, I'd like to see how easily a completely new player gets to lvl 60.

[iruinedyourday]

"Winning" is the same reason WoW moved to insta-queue dungeons that take less than 10 minutes to complete and have a nearly 0% fail rate. There's a reason we're all playing this instead of that.

no doggie you are totally wrong. I'm playing it because I like shitty D&D art and nostalgia.

[Eliseus]

This is the same reason I laughed at the hardcore white knights yelling "Not Classic" when something changes that seems to disturb many of the players, yet when someone mentioned that boxing was classic, but not many people did it, same with item recharging and not many people did it, so it should be in the same boat, they defended that till the day they die.

[psway]

I think the zone experience modifiers should be swapped around at random intervals. It seems like in velious or it might have been luclin that they started doing this. Allakhazam would then post the current hot spots as people discovered them. Either way I think it would be a big improvement as people stacking and constantly petitioning unrest camps feels completely non classic.

[psway]

Here is an interesting insight to the topic, that is classic, about 1.5months after the release of velious. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

[sox7d]

Here is an interesting insight to the topic, that is classic, about 1.5months after the release of velious. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

!!!

[Tecmos Deception]

Fun stuff about ZEMs, but I bet on p99 you could put double XP into places like runnyeye and dalnir and cazic thule and they still would hardly have "legit" xp groups in them... just more PL and solo/duo.

I mean, the fact that live servers had zones that were so underused that the devs wanted to boost XP in them, despite those servers having at least double the population total of p99 (with a much larger portion of that population still in the process of leveling up)... that shows that it isn't even a population issue. The game's loot and bind mechanics and dungeon difficulties are just soooooo far from "balanced" that you can't bandaid it enough to get more than a significant number of 20s willing and able to group up to XP in the bottom of runnyeye, etc.

[loramin]

Droga increased by 12%
Nurga increased by 12%
Solusek's Eye (SolA) increased by 13%
Najena increased by 13%
Befallen increased by 13%
Paw increased by 13%
Permafrost increased by 13%
Kaesora increased by 18%
Qeynos Catacombs increased by 20%
Runnyeye increased by 20%
Kerra Ridge increased by 20%
The Hole increased by 25% Awesome, I really hope something like that happens here. I know the GMs have already admitted that P99 ZEMs are NOT classic, but still they could add these classic bonuses to their un-classic ZEMs. Well, maybe all except Droga and Paw, both of which see decent action already (Paw only in the first part of the dungeon, but even a higher ZEM isn't going to make anyone go to the broken part).

[sox7d]

Fun stuff about ZEMs, but I bet on p99 you could put double XP into places like runnyeye and dalnir and cazic thule and they still would hardly have "legit" xp groups in them... just more PL and solo/duo.

I mean, the fact that live servers had zones that were so underused that the devs wanted to boost XP in them, despite those servers having at least double the population total of p99 (with a much larger portion of that population still in the process of leveling up)... that shows that it isn't even a population issue. The game's loot and bind mechanics and dungeon difficulties are just soooooo far from "balanced" that you can't bandaid it enough to get more than a significant number of 20s willing and able to group up to XP in the bottom of runnyeye, etc.

I'd say it's a familiarity thing that could be cured with population. People go to the zones they're used to, but if the population over saturates them, and people gradually start trying these other zones, I could see them becoming just as popular as people get more accustomed to them.

[tanknspank]

There are a lot of factors that play into it. Familiarity is one, sure, but so is the ability to quickly travel to the place from ports/EC or to do it with less than perfect groups (no CC or no tank or no healer)

The P99 community is a lot more centered on ECom and the buffs/trading it provides so there is very little local population in the Halas/Qeynos area. This means that getting pick-up people for Blackburrow, Permafrost or even Karana is tougher which in turns causes other people to just move to ECom.

At the same time, places like Oasis are favored because they provide very steady streams of steady level mobs that can be camped for, unlike places like the Karanas or Everfrost where mobs are a lot more mixed. And unlike dungeons it can be safely done with groups that don't have all necessary roles.

[Eliseus]

wow kids couldn't handle the difficulty of p99

What? The only thing "hard" about this is being able to deal with leveling slow (but still killing mobs with less buttons used than WoW) and having your zerg be the first one to get a claim on something, and some, if not most, would consider these skills as not "hard". There seems to be this weird misconception that Everquest is "hard" when in fact it isn't.

I put quotes around hard to emphasize that other might think this stuff is hard, but if that is the case, good thing you play here, because you would never make it in any modern day MMO.

[sox7d]

What? The only thing "hard" about this is being able to deal with leveling slow (but still killing mobs with less buttons used than WoW) and having your zerg be the first one to get a claim on something, and some, if not most, would consider these skills as not "hard". There seems to be this weird misconception that Everquest is "hard" when in fact it isn't.

I put quotes around hard to emphasize that other might think this stuff is hard, but if that is the case, good thing you play here, because you would never make it in any modern day MMO.

Compared to other MMOs, yeah, it is. I'm not whining in a sense that whenever I play I'm constantly dying and on-edge, exerting every brain cell I have to stay alive.

However, walk up to a typical experience-yielding mob in a modern MMO and P99 and just start attacking while spamming abilities. Do this 5 times in a row.

The modern MMO character will probably have full mana/hp by the end of it, the P99 character will probably have died/went oom by the third mob.

"BUT THAT JUST MEANS THAT THE GAME IS SLOWER!"

Maybe, but you're still not accomplishing the same thing with the same resources.

That being said, have an 8 year old kill a few lvl 50+ mobs in WoW vs doing a quad, single pulling or having adequate mana conservation in EQ.

[psway]

Once you get passed the twitch mechanics in wow the game design, aside form lore, is incredibly shallow. I could LFD. Or I could fly there, in record time, to solo the normal mode dungeon.

Besides, I would argue that the time/patience it takes to accomplish tasks is a function of difficulty.

I never once have thought in wow." First were gonna pacify those two mobs and root pull the others. I will then continue to root mobs as we back up to the entrance. Should this fail, we all need to gtfo of the zone". In wow just zerg it, if fail, blame the tank. Later complain about long query times while running around in place in the current main city. We will re-run the same dungeons to obtain gear that is a duplicate copy of the end game gear with just a smaller multiplier on the stats. Even If we don't get the armor were camping, after enough tries, we will have enough tokens to buy a slightly different version.

Once you've mastered your rotation, addons. There's nothing left. It is completely on rails.

Edit: Sorry those are just a series of blurbs that came to mind. I'd honestly rather continue talking about the zems lol.

[Glenzig]

What? The only thing "hard" about this is being able to deal with leveling slow (but still killing mobs with less buttons used than WoW) and having your zerg be the first one to get a claim on something, and some, if not most, would consider these skills as not "hard". There seems to be this weird misconception that Everquest is "hard" when in fact it isn't.

I put quotes around hard to emphasize that other might think this stuff is hard, but if that is the case, good thing you play here, because you would never make it in any modern day MMO.

Nope. EQ is still harder than any MMO I've played. Especially solo. Modern MMOs set the game up to be able to play comfortably to max level while soloing. EQ does not. Zones in modern MMO's are set up to be solo able from x level to x level. All the mobs in the zone will be in that level range. Once you level higher than those mobs, you have outleveled the zone and you go to the next zone. This is where the term "quest hub" came from.

EQ has zones set up where you can solo certain mobs efficiently. However, there are going to be much higher level mobs in that zone wandering around ready to kill you too. This in and of itself makes it much more challenging to play.

Add to that the fact that even if there are quests to do that yeild good XP or rewards, they are much harder to access due to not having shiny quest giver symbols above their heads.

End game content in EQ is where most people draw their comparisons as far as toughness goes. I haven't raided in EQ, but I'm pretty confident that this portion of the game, at this point in the timeline is much easier than modern mmos.

[pasi]

P99 is one of the easiest MMO's in existence. Hate when people talk about other MMO's as ezmode when you can literally afk your way to 60 and full end game raid loot in EQ.

Yep.

Anyhow, lazy repost since this thread pops up every few months:

In general EQ, is just much more punishing for stupid mistakes than WoW is. Once you get good enough to stop making idiotic mistakes (or stop playing with people who make huge mistakes), this really doesn't matter. Because of this, EQ's difficulty is much more front-loaded than WoW. All these horrible corpse runs and other 'difficult' (time consuming) punishments are circumvented once you're familiar with the game.

Wow is the opposite, where the difficulty of the game somewhat scales with how good you are at the game. The game starts off incredibly basic and builds up in challenge as you become more familiar with it. Compare this with EQ where you can get by on a raid (end-game) by /assisting and pushing maybe 1 or 2 buttons. Whereas with leveling, you're utilizing way more of your abilities and the environment. In WoW, leveling is a joke. In EQ, it's the most difficult part of the game for most people.

It's really a case of front-loaded versus back-loaded difficulty. WoW is going to seem like an easier game to those who haven't fully played it. EQ is going to seem a lot harder to those who aren't as great at the game.

[iruinedyourday]

Yep.

Anyhow, lazy repost since this thread pops up every few months:

In general EQ, is just much more punishing for stupid mistakes than WoW is. Once you get good enough to stop making idiotic mistakes (or stop playing with people who make huge mistakes), this really doesn't matter. Because of this, EQ's difficulty is much more front-loaded than WoW. All these horrible corpse runs and other 'difficult' (time consuming) punishments are circumvented once you're familiar with the game.

Wow is the opposite, where the difficulty of the game somewhat scales with how good you are at the game. The game starts off incredibly basic and builds up in challenge as you become more familiar with it. Compare this with EQ where you can get by on a raid (end-game) by /assisting and pushing maybe 1 or 2 buttons. Whereas with leveling, you're utilizing way more of your abilities and the environment. In WoW, leveling is a joke. In EQ, it's the most difficult part of the game for most people.

It's really a case of front-loaded versus back-loaded difficulty. WoW is going to seem like an easier game to those who haven't fully played it. EQ is going to seem a lot harder to those who aren't as great at the game.

Hence why I personaly play it, for the shitty D&D art :cool:

http://people.wku.edu/charles.plemons/dnd/isa/graphics/art_mind_flayer.jpg

[sox7d]

Hence why I personaly play it, for the shitty D&D art :cool:

http://people.wku.edu/charles.plemons/dnd/isa/graphics/art_mind_flayer.jpg

What does shitty DnD art have to do with P99?

Cool bro story: My DnD group of 2.5 years finished the Tomb of Horrors/our entire campaign on the night the artist for the original Tomb of Horrors died. I think Ascerak was his phylactery.

[Masq]

This server and EvE are the last bastions of dependent, difficult MMORPGs.

I don't think most EQ players understand time spent =/= difficulty and its almost laughable that people feel this game is difficult.

[sox7d]

ITT: tough guys

[iruinedyourday]

What does shitty DnD art have to do with P99?

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/1992/965943-race_ogre.jpg

[Klapton]

One thing that makes EQ much "harder" than newer games is that there are minimum competencies in EQ, without which you will not get groups, you will die a lot, and you are much less likely to advance to max level.

In EQ2, for example, if you have a balanced group in mediocre quested gear, and you take on even conned mobs, trained monkeys could literally just press their primary function buttons every time they refreshed and they WILL win. Tank mashes taunt, priest mashes heal, dps mashes dps, etc.

In EQ, if you cannot figure out how to /assist, you will wipe your group. No one will want to group with you. You will LOSE xp when you die.

The newer games all have what I call "noob-assist." They can literally just target the main tank and mash their buttons. Nothing else. No thinking required. Nothing. Target tank, mash buttons.

So people reach max level being completely clueless button mashers. That doesn't happen in EQ.

.

[Masq]

One thing that makes EQ much "harder" than newer games is that there are minimum competencies in EQ, without which you will not get groups, you will die a lot, and you are much less likely to advance to max level.

In EQ2, for example, if you have a balanced group in mediocre quested gear, and you take on even conned mobs, trained monkeys could literally just press their primary function buttons every time they refreshed and they WILL win. Tank mashes taunt, priest mashes heal, dps mashes dps, etc.

In EQ, if you cannot figure out how to /assist, you will wipe your group. No one will want to group with you. You will LOSE xp when you die.

The newer games all have what I call "noob-assist." They can literally just target the main tank and mash their buttons. Nothing else. No thinking required. Nothing. Target tank, mash buttons.

So people reach max level being completely clueless button mashers. That doesn't happen in EQ.

.

so /assist X macro = eq skillz

[Klapton]

so /assist X macro = eq skillz

It is just one example. It's not that it's rocket science or anything. It's just that if you don't do it, you suck. In newer MMOs it is almost impossible to suck. Just existing in the world and mashing buttons = win.

[iruinedyourday]

I made this very real and statistically accurate graph.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25736152/EQ/retardation.JPG

[Zaela]

ITT: tough guys

stupid losers having opinions in a thread you made specifically asking people's opinions

[Eliseus]

People also seem to assume that less forgiving stuff auto =s harder. IE, the time spent to regain exp loss from a death in EQ with no 96% rez vs no exp loss in most modern mmos.

I do love EQ and always will, and will always play here when I can, but being someone that has raided in top 10 "guilds" for server/world firsts in most MMOs, I can tell you that mechanics in EQ don't even touch current games in terms of "difficulty". That also being said though, I have never seen so many people in a game fail to clear the last content in an expansion till post expansions come out (sadly this mostly applies to later expansions, so not even relevant to p99 difficulty).

Basically what the last paragraph is getting it, is I can see certain aspects being considered hard, like clerics not being able to properly do a CH rotation, but overall difficulty of EQ doesn't in any shape / form compare to modern day MMOs. The only thing it has for it, is are you a player that can handle doing something like exping in the same spot for weeks, maybe months, which some could interpret as hard. I think what term people should really be saying, is EQ feels more rewarding. Not that EQ is or was hard. Hell, games like WoW even have DBM telling you how to do a fight, and it is still harder than EQ (which is something interesting to point out p99 difficulty considering the content will never be "new", it removes a lot of trial / error for most people since and strats that might exist outside of throwing 100000 people at something are mostly irrelevant).

[Zaela]

People also seem to assume that less forgiving stuff auto =s harder. IE, the time spent to regain exp loss from a death in EQ with no 96% rez vs no exp loss in most modern mmos.

I do love EQ and always will, and will always play here when I can, but being someone that has raided in top 10 "guilds" for server/world firsts in most MMOs, I can tell you that mechanics in EQ don't even touch current games in terms of "difficulty". That also being said though, I have never seen so many people in a game fail to clear the last content in an expansion till post expansions come out (sadly this mostly applies to later expansions, so not even relevant to p99 difficulty).

Basically what the last paragraph is getting it, is I can see certain aspects being considered hard, like clerics not being able to properly do a CH rotation, but overall difficulty of EQ doesn't in any shape / form compare to modern day MMOs. The only thing it has for it, is are you a player that can handle doing something like exping in the same spot for weeks, maybe months, which some could interpret as hard. I think what term people should really be saying, is EQ feels more rewarding. Not that EQ is or was hard. Hell, games like WoW even have DBM telling you how to do a fight, and it is still harder than EQ (which is something interesting to point out p99 difficulty considering the content will never be "new", it removes a lot of trial / error for most people since and strats that might exist outside of throwing 100000 people at something are mostly irrelevant).

I haven't played any modern MMOs (don't know shit about WoW), but my opinion falls in this general area. People can argue about EQ being harder than modern MMOs til they're blue in the face... but it doesn't change the fact that classic-style EQ could be a lot more challenging if you didn't hang onto all the ancient, extremely binary content, especially at the upper levels and raiding. Give the people who do have their shit together something to really sink their teeth into beyond endless grinding, farming, tracking, scheduling, etc.

Redesigning all of the existing raid content to have actual scripts and distinctive multi-part strategies would obviously never go down, but it would go a long way. Putting a cap on the number of people that can attack a raid mob to prevent blatant zerging might help too, although I understand there definitely isn't enough raid content to sustain the guild splits that would inevitably cause.

not classic though and not a player, ignore!

[Salimon]

People also seem to assume that less forgiving stuff auto =s harder. IE, the time spent to regain exp loss from a death in EQ with no 96% rez vs no exp loss in most modern mmos.

I do love EQ and always will, and will always play here when I can, but being someone that has raided in top 10 "guilds" for server/world firsts in most MMOs, I can tell you that mechanics in EQ don't even touch current games in terms of "difficulty". That also being said though, I have never seen so many people in a game fail to clear the last content in an expansion till post expansions come out (sadly this mostly applies to later expansions, so not even relevant to p99 difficulty).

Basically what the last paragraph is getting it, is I can see certain aspects being considered hard, like clerics not being able to properly do a CH rotation, but overall difficulty of EQ doesn't in any shape / form compare to modern day MMOs. The only thing it has for it, is are you a player that can handle doing something like exping in the same spot for weeks, maybe months, which some could interpret as hard. I think what term people should really be saying, is EQ feels more rewarding. Not that EQ is or was hard. Hell, games like WoW even have DBM telling you how to do a fight, and it is still harder than EQ (which is something interesting to point out p99 difficulty considering the content will never be "new", it removes a lot of trial / error for most people since and strats that might exist outside of throwing 100000 people at something are mostly irrelevant).

I played in a 25m heroic that was one of the top guilds on Area 52 server in WOW up until a month ago when i found P99. Wow is not difficult at all it is one of the easiest mmos I've ever played. The only key to wow is have good gear, Learn the best rotation of skills to do max dps and don't stand in shit. Nothing more. AoW is harder then any boss I've ever fought in wow. Emp Ssra again harder then any boss wow has ever put out. Want make EQ harder then all other mmo's is the strict and harsh penalties of death. Wow you die no big deal i can run back untouched with only needing to spend a little gold to fix my gear. EQ not only do you lose exp that could have taken hours to days to get depending on the level but you also have to run back naked to get your gear or lose everything you have. Again wow is like a down pillow and EQ a brick wall.

[Cippofra]

It really needs to be mentioned that the exp loss isn't a factor for people pursuing anything worthwhile. Exp doesnt matter much at 60, and you always end up getting a rez anyway

[sox7d]

Anything can sound easy if you prefix it with "All you have to do is..."

[kaev]

All you have to do is prefix it with "All you have to do is..."

Your right, it is pretty easy when it comes right down to it. Also, if you break another mez you're getting a paladin rez, and he's not 59 yet.

[iruinedyourday]

I made this very real and statistically accurate graph.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25736152/EQ/retardation.JPG

bumping my graph because it has all the answers.

[Eliseus]

I played in a 25m heroic that was one of the top guilds on Area 52 server in WOW up until a month ago when i found P99. Wow is not difficult at all it is one of the easiest mmos I've ever played. The only key to wow is have good gear, Learn the best rotation of skills to do max dps and don't stand in shit. Nothing more. AoW is harder then any boss I've ever fought in wow. Emp Ssra again harder then any boss wow has ever put out. Want make EQ harder then all other mmo's is the strict and harsh penalties of death. Wow you die no big deal i can run back untouched with only needing to spend a little gold to fix my gear. EQ not only do you lose exp that could have taken hours to days to get depending on the level but you also have to run back naked to get your gear or lose everything you have. Again wow is like a down pillow and EQ a brick wall.

But that is just it, It DOES NOT MATTER how hard or easy you think WoW is, IT IS STILL HARDER THAN EQ. That is the point I'm getting at, and unless you play very few jobs, like dual wield frost DK, or Hunter, you even push significantly more buttons than EQ. Consider this, if you think WoW is extremely easy, if you have patience, EQ will be a joke for you.

[iruinedyourday]

But that is just it, It DOES NOT MATTER how hard or easy you think WoW is, IT IS STILL HARDER THAN EQ. That is the point I'm getting at, and unless you play very few jobs, like dual wield frost DK, or Hunter, you even push significantly more buttons than EQ. Consider this, if you think WoW is extremely easy, if you have patience, EQ will be a joke for you.

pound for pound if you turned on EQ for the first time or Wow for the first time, EQ would kick the shit out of you and leave you for dead in a Gotham ally while wow would be like swimming in a soft pond in the moonlight glow among moss covered stones.

[jarlerop]

pound for pound if you turned on EQ for the first time or Wow for the first time, EQ would kick the shit out of you and leave you for dead in a Gotham ally while wow would be like swimming in a soft pond in the moonlight glow among moss covered stones.
This. So much this.

[Kytross]

What do you mean by hard?

Is it a matter of hitting more or less buttons? Is it a matter of end game or leveling?

I think it comes down to the amount of skill the player needs to have. EQ requires more resource management than WoW for levelling, or rather, it creates a scarcity of resources, on purpose, to force players to work together. WoW gives players an abundance of resources to allow them to solo. EQ requires additional knowledge of other classes, game mechanics as well as a moderate level of cooperation and synergy. You can play to max level of WoW, as any class, without grouping once.

I can't remember a time when anyone used soothe or lull in a group in WoW. We'd have tactics conversations once in awhile, but it was rare. EQ required tactics to get through each encounter. If you don't have a bard or enchanter than I hope you've got some great tactics and synergy because things are going to get hairy!

I think that the lack of a controller class really speaks to the heart of the difference between the two games. In WoW you don't need a controller. In EQ controlling the encounter is essential. I keep looking for a class like the bard in other mmos, but there isn't anything like it anywhere.

And yes, raids are more complicated in modern mmos. As someone said earlier the learning curve is frontloaded in EQ and backloaded in WoW. I can't tell you haw many late game encounters I've seen ruined because half the group didn't know their roles. I think that because WoW is solo focused you the solo problems so many necros, druids, monks and SKs had, the tactics they used in soloing don't work in groups. In modern mmos every class is a solo class.

On the other hand, modern raids require more than just sitting and waiting to do your part. There are puzzles and different kinds of encounters and... I guess this is really where modern mmos built on EQs shoulders, and did a fantastic job.

I like 'quest hubs' and maps that I can access in game. Modern mmos do make some things bettter. But their focus is on solo play, EQ was focused on group play.

I think that's part of why I'm so excited about joining 99. I like grouping. I like being a cog in a greater machine. I like being able to save my group from a wipe, or get off that complete heal at just the right time to turn the tide. I like taking time to work out our approach, and having to change that approach depeding on the make-up of the group.

I once healed for a bunch of mages and a wizard. The pets tanked, the wizard rooted and I had to keep the pets alive. I healed for a group where the aggro was split between two rogues who ping-ponged the aggro between them. I tanked once for a group with three bards and a shaman. I remember thinking the kills were going to take forever, but it turned out to be the fastest killing machine I ever grouped in. These guys had it worked out who was doing what, and I couldn't pull fast enough.

That sort of thing doesn't happen often in modern mmos. Most groups are formed by queue and everyone has an assigned role.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to playing with you all soon!

[tanknspank]

For me the classic feel comes down to 3 aspects: social-centric, toolset variety/freedom and risk-vs-reward.

Social-centric: The game is focused on working with other people. Making friendships and working together is highly beneficial. Soloing is limited to certain classes or specific mob types / locations / etc. Even the best solo classes have a lot to gain from other players (sow, clarity, ports, rez).

Toolset variety/freedom: Classes have a lot of variety in their toolkit because design was not slave to balance/equality. Furthermore the game places almost no restrictions on how tools are used. Charm a quest giver? Shared wolf form for faction? Kill your own race's guards for XP? Cast/med in between ticks? FD/sneak/invis/whatever pulling? You can do all that.

As a spinoff of the above and combined with a slower pace of combat, these tools often let you salvage a defeat with the proper decisions / actions. In EQ a bad situation often develops gradually and you can often salvage it with creative uses of tools. In WoW-like MMOs this is rarely possible and generally when things go bad it happens fast and is often not salvageable due to limitations (limits on combat rez, mana regen in combat, enrage timers, lack of control abilities/role, etc).

risk-vs-reward: Getting killed in EQ costs you a chunk of XPing time. It's something that stings a lot more than a few gold repairs. Not only that but you can lose levels too, forcing you to fight at a reduced power level to re-earn it. But at the same time you can earn better XP/loot by taking increased risk.

Consider Dreadlands vs LGuk/SolB. DL is relatively safe, full of solo pulls and very flexible as far as your group comp. But the loot is dismal. On the other hand in LGuk/SolB you're getting much more valuable loot, but you need a balanced group and lack a convenient zoneline you can run to as soon as things look bad.

[iruinedyourday]

I made this very real and statistically accurate graph.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25736152/EQ/retardation.JPG

bumping my graph becuse of statistical accuracy and also, come on guys dat graph!

[Taeoz]

It really does depend on your definition of difficulty and what part of the game we're comparing.

To me, EQ is about leveling - that's what I always have spent most time doing. Even the few characters that I got to max level on live, didn't see all that much raiding, since I just started a new alt to level up. In WoW, leveling is a joke - so much so, that you can just buy a max level character from Blizzard now.

And if we are comparing the difficulty in leveling, I think EQ is definitely much more punishing than WoW. They're not even close. One of my favourite new features on GiantBomb, is their new hire Dan Ryckert doing a 30-day trial of WoW as a person who has never played any MMOs. He is managing to level up and play the game, even though he is truly clueless and barely using his skills correctly. Now if he were to do a similar feature on P1999, I doubt he would get very far.

I think the best indicator of the difference is the mentality by which you approach new areas in both games. In WoW, you can just run in and start beating on stuff. If it turns out to be too much and you die - oh well, not that big of a deal. In EQ, if you're not familiar with the place, you will scout the area, looking for the static spawns and any pathers. You'll have probably read about the zone/mobs before even logging in. You will have a plan to escape/survive if things go south. You'll set up your spells to deal with the specific situation at hand.

I mean, shit - as I keep leveling my druid, the option to charm in Kedge will present itself. That idea is scary as hell, as it's one of those zones I've never played in. I'm not sure if I'll ever take the plunge or if I'll opt to do something safer. I've never had to have such deliberations about anything in WoW.

[iruinedyourday]

not sure if I'll ever take the plunge

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w62/iloveplatania/happy-i-see-what-you-did-there.png

[Klapton]

It really does depend on your definition of difficulty and what part of the game we're comparing.

To me, EQ is about leveling - that's what I always have spent most time doing. Even the few characters that I got to max level on live, didn't see all that much raiding, since I just started a new alt to level up. In WoW, leveling is a joke - so much so, that you can just buy a max level character from Blizzard now.

And if we are comparing the difficulty in leveling, I think EQ is definitely much more punishing than WoW. They're not even close. One of my favourite new features on GiantBomb, is their new hire Dan Ryckert doing a 30-day trial of WoW as a person who has never played any MMOs. He is managing to level up and play the game, even though he is truly clueless and barely using his skills correctly. Now if he were to do a similar feature on P1999, I doubt he would get very far.

I think the best indicator of the difference is the mentality by which you approach new areas in both games. In WoW, you can just run in and start beating on stuff. If it turns out to be too much and you die - oh well, not that big of a deal. In EQ, if you're not familiar with the place, you will scout the area, looking for the static spawns and any pathers. You'll have probably read about the zone/mobs before even logging in. You will have a plan to escape/survive if things go south. You'll set up your spells to deal with the specific situation at hand.

I mean, shit - as I keep leveling my druid, the option to charm in Kedge will present itself. That idea is scary as hell, as it's one of those zones I've never played in. I'm not sure if I'll ever take the plunge or if I'll opt to do something safer. I've never had to have such deliberations about anything in WoW.

Well said. I remember the first time I ran my bard to Highkeep. I was actually SCARED running through Kithicor Forest. No game I have ever played since gave me that sense of danger. Not even close.

[HippoNipple]

This server heavily emphasizes the technical parts of staying true to classic, but at what point does the classic feel of 2000 get diminished by such a strict standard?

People grouped much more back then due to being significantly less twinked and ignorant to race/class experience penalties. I think most of us can agree that grouping and dependency is what separates this game from every other current MMO.

Since a wipe is off the table, I believe that an exp penalty to soloing and an experience bonus for more group members were implemented, the server would feel much more classic. Below 50, a group of 2-3 people can hold down most exp camps given 2014 competence and twinking, might as well have an incentive to invite more members if camps are getting cleared regardless.

I'm not asking for this to be implemented, I'm just curious of what you guys think of classic feel vs classic mechanics.

Exp bonus isn't classic. I had more free time in 1999 so if you want it to be fair to me I need a 5x exp bonus for my classic experience to be the same.

If you want I can come over and stuff you in a locker so you can remember what 1999 was like for you.

[Salimon]

But that is just it, It DOES NOT MATTER how hard or easy you think WoW is, IT IS STILL HARDER THAN EQ. That is the point I'm getting at, and unless you play very few jobs, like dual wield frost DK, or Hunter, you even push significantly more buttons than EQ. Consider this, if you think WoW is extremely easy, if you have patience, EQ will be a joke for you.

I completely disagree with this. Let me rephrase my previous comments. Wow is not skill driven it is gear driven nothing more. The best possible rotation is known to everyone it is posted everywhere, They only difference between me and another of the same class is say my Ilvl in wow is 560 and another player is 575 unless he is just completely awful at the game(which he wouldn't be at that level of play) there is absolutely no way i will out dps/heal/tank them. There is no skill involved at all. He will be better then me and i can't do anything about it.

The raids in WOW are a joke. The grouping in wow is a joke it is all a zerg fest. All it is is don't stand in shit. There is no CC they removed pretty much all of it. The only need for CC in the entire last wow expansion was Going from Paragon to Garrosh. just one instance in an entire expansion that required people to work as a team to keep from dieing. There is no heal rotations trying to time it out it is just spam heal and keep people topped off. You don't have to worry about going OOM because the Regen is just stupid. There is no pulling and setting up potions it is just run and and kill everything.

EQ is skill and knowledge driven. Lets just look at monks, bards, and Enc in EQ. The difference between a good one and a bad one is huge regardless of gear. A naked skilled bard monk or enc can outplay anyone no matter the difference in gear. Playing a bard and playing it well is harder then anything wow has to offer. A good monk puller is the difference between a constant steady stream of xp or instant death for everyone. Same with a good enc you can get a ton of mobs and still be fine. But one person doesn't assist right and you can again kill the whole group unless that enc can react and adjust to the broken mezz. Wow doesn't have any of that. All you have to do is run 50 feet away and everything will stop chasing you.

I will say it again wow is hands down the easiest MMO i have ever played.

[Eliseus]

I completely disagree with this. Let me rephrase my previous comments. Wow is not skill driven it is gear driven nothing more. The best possible rotation is known to everyone it is posted everywhere, They only difference between me and another of the same class is say my Ilvl in wow is 560 and another player is 575 unless he is just completely awful at the game(which he wouldn't be at that level of play) there is absolutely no way i will out dps/heal/tank them. There is no skill involved at all. He will be better then me and i can't do anything about it.

The raids in WOW are a joke. The grouping in wow is a joke it is all a zerg fest. All it is is don't stand in shit. There is no CC they removed pretty much all of it. The only need for CC in the entire last wow expansion was Going from Paragon to Garrosh. just one instance in an entire expansion that required people to work as a team to keep from dieing. There is no heal rotations trying to time it out it is just spam heal and keep people topped off. You don't have to worry about going OOM because the Regen is just stupid. There is no pulling and setting up potions it is just run and and kill everything.

EQ is skill and knowledge driven. Lets just look at monks, bards, and Enc in EQ. The difference between a good one and a bad one is huge regardless of gear. A naked skilled bard monk or enc can outplay anyone no matter the difference in gear. Playing a bard and playing it well is harder then anything wow has to offer. A good monk puller is the difference between a constant steady stream of xp or instant death for everyone. Same with a good enc you can get a ton of mobs and still be fine. But one person doesn't assist right and you can again kill the whole group unless that enc can react and adjust to the broken mezz. Wow doesn't have any of that. All you have to do is run 50 feet away and everything will stop chasing you.

I will say it again wow is hands down the easiest MMO i have ever played.

This is 100% bull shit. You just called WoW a Zerg fest? You have obviously never played EQ. Like someone else has pointed out, and myself has also, there is certain aspects in EQ that could be assumed harder, but it is mostly revolved around leveling, that is it (your examples are even revolved around lvling, and playing a bard you still aren't pushing a many buttons as jobs in wow). If you try to just "Zerg" content in WoW (which you can't since content is limited at 25 people, which in itself proves you don't know what you are saying), you fail. The overall skill level though of WoW is much higher, all aspects taken in, to actually do the content that is rewarding.

[Tecmos Deception]

Just because WoW has gear checks built into a lot (or even all) of its encounters hardly means that player knowledge/skill isn't a big factor as well. There are plenty of old encounters (not even just raid encounters either) that can wipe a player/group/raid in MoP gear if they don't know the mechanics before the attempt.

Besides, EQ isn't even close to being ALL about player knowledge/skill either: good luck XPing in HS south with a group of level 50s, or killing Hoshkar a raid of level 50s wearing cloth (short of a huge, huge zerg).

[a_gnoll_pup]

To all the people saying WoW is easy, which it is for serious veteran MMO players, go arrange a Flex SoO 4 group with OQ right now with an ilevel requirement of 545 then come back to me. The problem doesn't lie in your skill, it involves the people around you; their skill. If WoW was filled with 6 million competent players, it would be considered an easy game.

Also, Salimon, you've obviously never PvP'd in WoW, judging from your comments. Which by the way is entirely skill based, given the 550 ilevel cap in arenas.

[Priceline]

I never once have thought in wow." First were gonna pacify those two mobs and root pull the others. I will then continue to root mobs as we back up to the entrance. Should this fail, we all need to gtfo of the zone". In wow just zerg it, if fail, blame the tank.

Clearly you never ran heroic dungeons during TBC, the above is about what happened for every pull

[Priceline]

TLDR every above post:

EQ is the hardest mmo every made
WoW is the hardest mmo ever made
EQ is the easiest mmo every made
WoW is the easiest mmo every made
I am correct, you are not
I am wrong, you are correct
I am correct, you're wrong
I am wrong, you're correct
here's a graph
hey! the graph again
EQ is a zerg
WoW is a zerg
give red a try
#notclassic

[iruinedyourday]

people seem to argue that 15 years of documentation and experience in an un-updated game makes it easy.

It's like if you played Ninja Gaiden 3 for 15 years. Yea you would kill that shit in a speed run, you rule at it you know everything about it. It does not mean Ninja Gaiden 3 is easy, it just means you're really good at it.

Many people here have mastered EQ and then they think that its easy. But come on, you'll still wipe, you'll still CR, 15 years later and you still cant get to 60 on a permadeath server (secret plug for a permadeath server).

that means EQ is hard.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/25736152/EQ/ng3.JPG

[Velerin]

What are you guys even comparing? Classic EQ to current WoW? WoW was the beginning of easy mode MMO. EQ live is ridiculously easy now too.
Decaying skeletons drop this:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=75365

What made classic EQ hard was 1.) death mattered and 2.) nothing guided you thru anything.
Mess up and have a 3 hour CR and lose all the exp you gained from the last 3 hours to boot. People think twice about trying risky stuff.
We don't really have 2 anymore because its a 15 years old game.

[sox7d]

What are you guys even comparing? Classic EQ to current WoW? WoW was the beginning of easy mode MMO. EQ live is ridiculously easy now too.
Decaying skeletons drop this:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=75365

What made classic EQ hard was 1.) death mattered and 2.) nothing guided you thru anything.
Mess up and have a 3 hour CR and lose all the exp you gained from the last 3 hours to boot. People think twice about trying risky stuff.
We don't really have 2 anymore because its a 15 years old game.

Don't worry, everyone's on the same page here. The only people saying WoW is harder are the hipsters that want to be different because the "this game is better than the amusement park MMOs" logic is 70% of conversations in group in this game and 100% of them on orc hill.

[Daakkon]

I just wante to get in my 2 cents and say gay marriage

[Zaela]

It is funny how WoW comes up so quick when it is not really relevant to the topic of the thread.

MMO players have no imaginations though, can't imagine their games being any different than they are, so they have to make comparisons to other games say anything about them.

I still think EQ could be made harder in some respects, in ways that would make it more challenging and rewarding in the classic style, if technically less classic in content, without reference to other MMOs. But I don't think anyone would be able to discuss that without bringing in some other game and fanning the flames.

[sox7d]

It is funny how WoW comes up so quick when it is not really relevant to the topic of the thread.

MMO players have no imaginations though, can't imagine their games being any different than they are, so they have to make comparisons to other games say anything about them.

I still think EQ could be made harder in some respects, in ways that would make it more challenging and rewarding in the classic style, if technically less classic in content, without reference to other MMOs. But I don't think anyone would be able to discuss that without bringing in some other game and fanning the flames.

Topic derailed pages ago, but I'm fine with that. I think all of us played WoW for at least a year or two, if only because EQ was in the LDoN era and WoW had a pretty awesome release. WoW was an extremely polished game, but it was much easier and more forgiving.

[Clark]

Resists and roots still need fixed.

[SCB]

AoW is harder then any boss I've ever fought in wow. Emp Ssra again harder then any boss wow has ever put out. Want make EQ harder then all other mmo's is the strict and harsh penalties of death. Wow you die no big deal i can run back untouched with only needing to spend a little gold to fix my gear.

lol.

AoW is literally release 40-man Patchwerk. They are the same exact encounter with a different skin. Ssra is slightly harder, but nowhere near anything like Firefighter, much less Sunwell.

Dying is a problem in EQ from approximately level 8 to level 51. 99% of clerics on this server have an epic, and a clicky rez is usually no more than a friendly tell away, even sub-50, because many people have clerics parked in their zone in case their group dies.


Back on topic: I'm all about classic feel, and not classic mechanics. If I had the option, I'd have all mechanics set to end-of-velious levels from launch. EXP penalties were a mistake, per the devs. We don't worship mistakes - we fix them. Same for all the other crap they fixed. Yeah we get no rubicite or guises, but so what - have some GM events and hand 'em out in limited quantities.

[kaev]

lol.

AoW is literally release 40-man Patchwerk. They are the same exact encounter with a different skin. Ssra is slightly harder, but nowhere near anything like Firefighter, much less Sunwell.

Dying is a problem in EQ from approximately level 8 to level 51. 99% of clerics on this server have an epic, and a clicky rez is usually no more than a friendly tell away, even sub-50, because many people have clerics parked in their zone in case their group dies.


Back on topic: I'm all about classic feel, and not classic mechanics. If I had the option, I'd have all mechanics set to end-of-velious levels from launch. EXP penalties were a mistake, per the devs. We don't worship mistakes - we fix them. Same for all the other crap they fixed. Yeah we get no rubicite or guises, but so what - have some GM events and hand 'em out in limited quantities.

Really? You've been here for 4 years and you say that? :rolleyes:

Worship ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=worship ) is exactly what's happening amongst the noisiest part of the community here. The staff appears to have a different agenda, and a lot of us players are just here for the fun of it, but the :classic: nerds make it plain every day that they are 100% in worship mode. And they especially advocate for and worship the stupidest of the choices our Verantard overlords made back in the day.

[Glenzig]

Really? You've been here for 4 years and you say that? :rolleyes:

Worship ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=worship ) is exactly what's happening amongst the noisiest part of the community here. The staff appears to have a different agenda, and a lot of us players are just here for the fun of it, but the :classic: nerds make it plain every day that they are 100% in worship mode. And they especially advocate for and worship the stupidest of the choices our Verantard overlords made back in the day.

BLASPHEMY!!!! HE'S A WITCH!!! BURN HIM!!! BURN HIIIIIIIIMMMM!!!!!!!

[sox7d]

Hadn't only like 5 guilds across all servers taken out AoW prior to luclin release?

How long does it take for the hardest boss of a WoW expansion to get killed once it's released?

[Kika Maslyaka]

The only "hard" part about EQ raids was that mobs had obscene amount of hp compared to players dps. Specially during Luclin era when disparity was exceptional huge. We had 42 people at Seru raid - it took us 47 minutes (our GL timed) with perfectly tuned mechanics to kill him. It wasn't hard - it was tedious. Half of the raid was a sleep, another half was telling dirty jokes just to keep themselves entertained. If we would wiped, it would only because of loss of concentration over such ridiculous period of time. It wasn't a test of skill at all, more like test of attrition.
EQ maybe "hard" but WoW raids are a lot more fun.

[Clark]

Really? You've been here for 4 years and you say that? :rolleyes:

Worship ( http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=worship ) is exactly what's happening amongst the noisiest part of the community here. The staff appears to have a different agenda, and a lot of us players are just here for the fun of it, but the :classic: nerds make it plain every day that they are 100% in worship mode. And they especially advocate for and worship the stupidest of the choices our Verantard overlords made back in the day.

[Eliseus]

Hadn't only like 5 guilds across all servers taken out AoW prior to luclin release?

How long does it take for the hardest boss of a WoW expansion to get killed once it's released?

You prove your ignorance even more, considering EQ's total pop was never even in the same ballpark as WoWs, the %s are basically equivalent. But again, this isn't opinion base, this is actual fact, unless you think patience and pooh socks are a feet of being "hard", then you would be correct, EQ is harder, but all in all, I highly doubt you even know what you are saying towards both games since every example you keep giving proves you don't. I do give you a 5/10 though for keeping me along on your trolling.

[sox7d]

You prove your ignorance even more, considering EQ's total pop was never even in the same ballpark as WoWs, the %s are basically equivalent. But again, this isn't opinion base, this is actual fact, unless you think patience and pooh socks are a feet of being "hard", then you would be correct, EQ is harder, but all in all, I highly doubt you even know what you are saying towards both games since every example you keep giving proves you don't. I do give you a 5/10 though for keeping me along on your trolling.

8.5/10

[pasi]

Again, it's an issue of comparing leveling versus endgame.

EQ's difficulty was in its leveling which is also the majority of the time spent in game.

The leveling process for EQ is notably harder than for WoW. However, unlike endgame difficulty, leveling difficulty can be circumvented by sticking to the path of least resistance. Leveling is going to be harder if you are grouping in SolA or Dalnir rather than if you are camping a zone out in Overthere. Guess which path the vast majority of players choose? And for good reason.

WoW's difficulty was in its end game (ie raiding, arenas) which is the majority of the time spent in game. Comparatively speaking, EQ's endgame was a complete joke up until Gates of Discord. You're better off with an average player who makes 90% of raids than a great player who makes 80% of raids. The skill cap and threshold for success in raiding EQ were incredibly low for almost every role.

Luclin showcased this very well. No joke, we would have the majority of our melee characters who would hit auto attack and do nothing else for 40 minutes. Maybe they would check in and click backstab every couple minutes, but for the most part they were AFK for the entire fight... and we were killing stuff without a hitch. And that was on content that was more difficult/complex than the previous expansions.

Lets go off that a bit. Look at live or emu servers that allow boxing or MQ2 plugins, you can play 6, 12, 18, hell even 24 characters without a large dip in character productivity and be successful at raiding. This is possible because tasks are simple and the environment is static.

This is not to fault EQ as MMORPG raid design was in its infancy. Again, simplicity doesn't take away from the quality of the game, difficulty does not equate to a better game.

I love EQ, I just think all yall are crazy for thinking 1999 EQ is more difficult/complex than 2004 WoW.

[Kika Maslyaka]

good post! +1 ;)