(attn: high priest) Channeling rate way too high

[Nirgon]

I was thinking a little while ago while I casted an allure through my VoG hasted/dual wielding pet + another mob on me for the 4th time after charm broke that I should make a thread about channeling rate.

Try it on live if you want. If a dev is interested I have a level 60 vintage caster (channeling skill / no fancy new gear) to compare to live.

If we could knock this down so gaining agro on a caster is significant, that'd be cool with me :cool:.

[Rhambuk]

casters, always got it too easy in classic still getting it to easy here.

bastards

[Nirgon]

ez channelerino
ez gamerino
ez liferino

[Daldaen]

Channeling pre-GoD, when it was revamped, was largely a game of location. IE you are at location (1000,1000). Your channeling skill increased the delta tolerance to successfully finish that spell. It only checked beginning and end.

So let's say with max channeling that tolerance 10 units, If you are anywhere within the circle drawn from (1000,1000) with a radius 10, at the end of your cast, you will channel.

This is why cornering yourself helps so much and why channeling in water is horrid.

It also let allowed you to get in a corner, cast CH, run around for 5 seconds, then get back snug in your corner and still cast even after moving around so much.

That was just movement/push channeling. For channeling a CH clerics would often take a small step forward near the end if they were getting beat down.

I think there was a small chance for melee hits to break channeling, but it mostly came down to how much on the X,Y axis your character moved when comparing beginning of cast and end of cast locations.

I seem to recall a dev post explaining this all a bit more. I'd have to dig for it though.

[planarity]

Channeling pre-GoD, when it was revamped, was largely a game of location. IE you are at location (1000,1000). Your channeling skill increased the delta tolerance to successfully finish that spell. It only checked beginning and end.

So let's say with max channeling that tolerance 10 units, If you are anywhere within the circle drawn from (1000,1000) with a radius 10, at the end of your cast, you will channel.

This is why cornering yourself helps so much and why channeling in water is horrid.

It also let allowed you to get in a corner, cast CH, run around for 5 seconds, then get back snug in your corner and still cast even after moving around so much.

That was just movement/push channeling. For channeling a CH clerics would often take a small step forward near the end if they were getting beat down.

I think there was a small chance for melee hits to break channeling, but it mostly came down to how much on the X,Y axis your character moved when comparing beginning of cast and end of cast locations.

I seem to recall a dev post explaining this all a bit more. I'd have to dig for it though.

Everything you posted here agrees with my experience on P99. So are you saying we have it correct atm?

[Nirgon]

Ya I couldn't just stand there and spam sunstrikes thru unslowed mobs attacking me 999 times out of 1000 on trilogy live.

I snortle to myself as I just cast whatever I want even through hasted/quadding mobs here.

(I'm aware of "corner casting")

[Daldaen]

Corner casting you should channel through most everything if it's a true corner.

I feel like it's correct on this server though, yes.

Nirgon you're gonna need some evidence on this subject to get Haynar to change it. And don't just cherry pick one or two examples of people not channeling cause I'm sure those exist. If you feel we are channeling way more effectively than classic need more than one or two quotes about being interrupted when casting.

[Scrubosaur]

Lately, I have had more of a problem channeling spells with mobs beating on me. I was going to ask in a post if there was a change, but it may have something to do with having DMF up or the z-axis problem. I believe channeling is fine on p99. When charming mobs in HS I would need to cast screaming terror and then charm in order to not get knocked out of channeling.

[Pint]

In my experience it has always been hard to get an allure off after a stun unless you short mez first, that's always been the biggest advantage to using boltrans imo. Maybe it changed recently but I distinctly remember it never channeling on wep'd pets in seb/hs unless I got lucky.

[Haynar]

Channeling is too easy. Since I started seperating the pc/npc calcs some, can look at more.

I know without channeling skill, getting hit once should cause a failure.

Corner casting is based around position. I need to tweak it.

How is channeling doing on npc's lately? Still too easy to interrupt? Or better?

H

[Daldaen]

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2934&highlight=Channeling

This seems to line up with what I remember.

But comparing it to P99, our Corner Casting isn't quite as good as they're talking about. Maybe they are exaggerating, but I get interrupted a decent amount when I'm cornered with 2-3 mobs on me on P99.

[Scrubosaur]

I remember Clerics finding a corner - starting to cast Complete Heal - running in a big circle away from mobs and then going back to the same corner before channeling is done and being able to finish the cast. Not sure if that works here or not.

[kaev]

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2934&highlight=Channeling

This seems to line up with what I remember.

But comparing it to P99, our Corner Casting isn't quite as good as they're talking about. Maybe they are exaggerating, but I get interrupted a decent amount when I'm cornered with 2-3 mobs on me on P99.

I :feel: that my channeling does not work well enough when I've got myself cornered, and that channeling works too well when I'm getting beat on in the open, especially when I'm on a slope. As I recall it on live:
- channeling when being beat on while standing on a slope was nigh miraculous, a single mob could often prevent me casting,
- channeling failed often when being beat on by multiple mobs on flat ground, less often with a single mob on me,
- channeling failed rarely vs. a single mob when I got my back against a flat wall, more often with multiple mobs when backed up against a wall, and
- channeling failures while cornered were rare as hen's teeth (except for bash/stun of course).

The slope thing might have been an overreaction to a few bad results, I definitely took to avoiding that situation as much as possible. Or maybe melee push actually shoved you around more on uneven ground.

It seems as small position changes (i.e. melee push) don't count for quite enough. Cornering myself doesn't seem to help as much as it should, but that could be because channeling without a wall to stop me being pushed works a bit too well. And yeah, whoever mentioned channeling underwater, that sucked on live a lot more than it seems to here.

[Potus]

I was thinking a little while ago while I casted an allure through my VoG hasted/dual wielding pet + another mob on me for the 4th time after charm broke that I should make a thread about channeling rate.

Try it on live if you want. If a dev is interested I have a level 60 vintage caster (channeling skill / no fancy new gear) to compare to live.

If we could knock this down so gaining agro on a caster is significant, that'd be cool with me :cool:.

Were you Runed? Because bash doesn't work right and you should have been bash interrupted.

[Nirgon]

Didn't even need rune

Channeling long charms through pet break np, holds basically forever

[Haynar]

I am looking at adding a small buffer around ur loc to improve corner casting. And increasing mod for movement.

H

[Scrubosaur]

Didn't even need rune

Channeling long charms through pet break np, holds basically forever


I don't see how this is possible. I charmed killed in HS from 54 > 60 and I never hasted my pet. I was unable to recast charm on my pet after it broke (Thrall of Bones - 6sec cast) with out getting interrupted. I had to have up fast casting screaming terror in order to stun it and then charm. If two mobs were on me I would have to FD as I couldn't even get off a root without interruption.

Were you killing low level greens that were missing you? Were you standing in a corner? I can reproduce the results I listed in HS all day long, so if Haynar needs to see it then it would only take a minute.

[Haynar]

I see an issue with channeling skill being too good possibly.

What are max channeling skills? Dont have that info here. Say for CLR, ENC and NEC at 60?

[Potus]

Didn't even need rune

Channeling long charms through pet break np, holds basically forever

Hasted mobs outright kill me on recharm if I don't have a rune up. I don't see how you cast Allure and lived.

[Haynar]

Hasted mobs outright kill me on recharm if I don't have a rune up. I don't see how you cast Allure and lived.
He cheats. He has a macro that readjusts his position to start casting loc dynamically. F***ing hackers.

H

[Haynar]

It may be the push code. I probably need it to only push in the smallest increment the client uses, 0.125. That will add a small buffer. The channeling chance may just need tweaked.

H

[Thulack]

I didnt read through all the posting but ive run a good 10 feet ahead of me to cancel and spell and still had the spell channel through. ducking isnt something i use to do so it slips my mind occasionally so i run around to stop spell casting and on a few times ive had the spell channel through when i ran back and forward real quick(guessing landed in same spot so it checked and i was still there and it casted) but never had it where i ran in 1 direction for 3 seconds and it still channeled through til that one day.

[Freakish]

Channeling is 200 on NEC, I assume it is the same on all casters.

[Wrench]

Didn't even need rune

Channeling long charms through pet break np, holds basically forever

as others said, this is straight up not true on higher level pets

i hope you are being honest with this bug report nirgon

[Byrjun]

I think the fizzle rate might be a bit too low too. Especially on the Cannibalize line of spells, these had a much higher rate of fizzling on live compared to other spells.

Honestly I think NPC channeling is fine. I've seen raid mobs channel gate with a serious push being applied. Aaryonar on the Velious beta server was insane, we were pushing her all the way down the hall and she would still channel gate. I don't even remember her using gate on live, and if she did it was insignificant because I don't remember her ever gating even after dozens and dozens of kills. I'd maybe even suggest NPC channeling rates to be lower, but Nirgon might pop a blood vessel at such a suggestion.

[Nirgon]

Hasted mobs outright kill me on recharm if I don't have a rune up. I don't see how you cast Allure and lived.

I have a very long string of 1s and 0s that I feed through an encrypted program that alerts me when my charm spell has broken and I recast it. Much too complicated to go into any real detail here.

I'm being honest too.. happy to log in and have an EQ date with HPH to demo. Classic hating scum/classic mechanic cowards not invited.

[Tecmos Deception]

I was thinking a little while ago while I casted an allure through my VoG hasted/dual wielding pet + another mob on me for the 4th time after charm broke that I should make a thread about channeling rate.

I notice you didn't post any logs.

[Scrubosaur]

I'm being honest too.. happy to log in and have an EQ date with HPH to demo. Classic hating scum/classic mechanic cowards not invited.

Too hostile. Take a break.

[Nirgon]

Too hostile. Take a break.

Ain't hostile just sayin' mosta ya'll not invited to the pixel party.

I can dig up the logs when I get home... its easy enough to use GM commands to test it in literally less than 40 seconds :P.

I don't see how this is possible. I charmed killed in HS from 54 > 60 and I never hasted my pet. I was unable to recast charm on my pet after it broke (Thrall of Bones - 6sec cast) with out getting interrupted.

Did you not train OP CHANNELING P99LAWLS from your guild master? Try the masters in Neriak or Erudin.



Pras HPH may he fixed pending update for 5000 years.

[Haynar]

Pras HPH may he fixed pending update for 5000 years.
I am thinking I need a good idea, and do a kickstarter. 5000 years is too long.

Until then, will do a little here and there. I will try to stick with little adjustments.

H

[Yinikren]

I've actually noticed issues channeling at low levels, before you get a decent enough skill in it to channel through hits reliably. On my wiz, below 10, it was frustratingly difficult to tank and nuke mobs. Even when spells were perfectly timed between any hits or bashes, 30-40% of the time I would get an interrupt, despite having not moved at all.

[derpcake]

I was thinking a little while ago while I casted an allure through my VoG hasted/dual wielding pet + another mob on me for the 4th time after charm broke that I should make a thread about channeling rate.

Try it on live if you want. If a dev is interested I have a level 60 vintage caster (channeling skill / no fancy new gear) to compare to live.

If we could knock this down so gaining agro on a caster is significant, that'd be cool with me :cool:.

You really are off the hook if you think using a caster in 2014 has any relevance to how they used to be in original and kunark.

Channeling was revamped many times, spells were changed across levels (root is a lvl 4 wiz spell on p1999, its a lvl 3 spell on eqlive), and so on.

Then again this thread is up to 31 posts with zero proof so yea .. keep on guesstimating guys.

[derpcake]

I didnt read through all the posting but ive run a good 10 feet ahead of me to cancel and spell and still had the spell channel through. ducking isnt something i use to do so it slips my mind occasionally so i run around to stop spell casting and on a few times ive had the spell channel through when i ran back and forward real quick(guessing landed in same spot so it checked and i was still there and it casted) but never had it where i ran in 1 direction for 3 seconds and it still channeled through til that one day.

The second loc check takes place near the end of the spell cast. It does not happen when the spell is done, it is earlier.

Try it, cast a spell and start running when its 97% done casting, you can run wherever you want.

(this also allows bards to twist songs at 2.8-2.9 sec cast time instead of the full 3 sec, compensating missed notes in a 4 song twist)

Has always been like that on live, seems perfect on P99.

I also managed to use this on p1999 by channeling a self-buff through accepting a res.

Get the res box up, stand directly above corpse, start casting a spell. When its very near the end of its cast, click accept. Since the "required mana" check takes place at the start of the spell cast, and you don't change loc, you can channel through accepting a res box.

Unsure if that works on eqlive, never tried.

Pretty funny that you can summon a pet through a res box and reclaim it after the res to have a healthy few 100 mana available after a res though.

Have fun with it.

[Rhambuk]

I've actually noticed issues channeling at low levels, before you get a decent enough skill in it to channel through hits reliably. On my wiz, below 10, it was frustratingly difficult to tank and nuke mobs. Even when spells were perfectly timed between any hits or bashes, 30-40% of the time I would get an interrupt, despite having not moved at all.

Hate this about p99, leveling a low level caster is so annoying getting interupted when youre not hit...

[Thulack]

The second loc check takes place near the end of the spell cast. It does not happen when the spell is done, it is earlier.

Try it, cast a spell and start running when its 97% done casting, you can run wherever you want.

(this also allows bards to twist songs at 2.8-2.9 sec cast time instead of the full 3 sec, compensating missed notes in a 4 song twist)

Has always been like that on live, seems perfect on P99.

I also managed to use this on p1999 by channeling a self-buff through accepting a res.

Get the res box up, stand directly above corpse, start casting a spell. When its very near the end of its cast, click accept. Since the "required mana" check takes place at the start of the spell cast, and you don't change loc, you can channel through accepting a res box.

Unsure if that works on eqlive, never tried.

Pretty funny that you can summon a pet through a res box and reclaim it after the res to have a healthy few 100 mana available after a res though.

Have fun with it.

Ive done the whole casting spell while taking rez box to get clarity on chanter when i pop but i also tried with illusion and it didnt stick through the zoning for the rez so i'm guessing summoning a pet wouldnt work either but will give that one a try next time i log on. And no i cast the spell and immediately realized it was the wrong one. Ran forward a few steps and stopped til spell finished and it casted through. Wasnt near the end of the casting.

[Haynar]

Hate this about p99, leveling a low level caster is so annoying getting interupted when youre not hit...

I dont like the low level channeling formula. I might adjust some.

H

[Daldaen]

The buff before Rez is pretty classic. Can't get outdoor only buffs like SoW / Druid Mask if you're getting rezzed into a dungeon give you time it properly.

[Rhambuk]

I dont like the low level channeling formula. I might adjust some.

H

cheers I should've complained more a long time ago :P

[Nirgon]

Low level channeling (sub lvl 30) should be basically impossible.

If it helps? Shock of lightning in pvp all the way up to I'd say lvl 40ish interrupted every single time and should be a good metric for "what is enough push". As you went up from there (channeling skill lvl 40 caster and up), you'd see people able to get a cast through it once in a while (enough that an enemy casting through it would set you back greatly as opposed to casting a lure or otherwise high lvl/damaging spell).

[Daldaen]

No, it wasn't nearly that extreme.

Channeling as a hybrid before you get the skill or as a melee with a clicky, is indeed impossible even if the mob lands a single hit, you get interrupted. Which Haynar notes.

But low level channeling, while bad, was not "nearly impossible".

[Nirgon]

I'd go with using the live EQ server as a test bed. Spells that knock back and melee hits all are worth a look when comparing and contrasting.

[Haynar]

I'd go with using the live EQ server as a test bed. Spells that knock back and melee hits all are worth a look when comparing and contrasting.

The chance to channel needs mapped vs skill level, with distance moved.

H

[Haynar]

Low level channeling (sub lvl 30) should be basically impossible.

If it helps? Shock of lightning in pvp all the way up to I'd say lvl 40ish interrupted every single time and should be a good metric for "what is enough push". As you went up from there (channeling skill lvl 40 caster and up), you'd see people able to get a cast through it once in a while (enough that an enemy casting through it would set you back greatly as opposed to casting a lure or otherwise high lvl/damaging spell).
Good to know. Will look at knockback amount vs channel chance at level 40.

H

[Haynar]

Looks like a push back of 2 units. At level 40, thats a skill cap of 200.

Based on code, that distance should make you have a 0% chance to channel, even at 220 skill. So the idea of a buffer area around where you started casting, can make that work pretty good.

Also, if channeling is too easy for clients, it can be made harder by making the distance moved have a linear effect, rather than a quadratic. Because small distance moves have no effect hardly at all.

But that means there needs to be an adder at small moves, so you can channel better, so things like corner tanking will be pretty reliable.

H