How is hybrid hate these days?

[koros]

I haven't played in about a year due busy rl + frustration over logging in for 2 hours as a mid 50s ranger and being unable to get groups, almost anywhere. Is it better these days with many people being closer to/at 60 or still similar?

[Whirled]

The short answer: No Velious yet. Still XP penalties

[Brut]

Methinks hybrid hate and ranger hate are two different stories.

[August]

If you form your own group there's no problem. People always complain they sit LFG- but why do you expect someone else to place you in a group? Never understood this mindset when you roll a suboptimal class. You should play what you want, but included with that is the understood notion of playing an exp-sucking, ability-lacking class.

[koros]

If you form your own group there's no problem. People always complain they sit LFG- but why do you expect someone else to place you in a group? Never understood this mindset when you roll a suboptimal class. You should play what you want, but included with that is the understood notion of playing an exp-sucking, ability-lacking class.

That's bullshit, I could easily tank/pull/dps with the best in xp groups, especially in KC, but I'm not about to get into a ranger argument. The problem with making your own groups is that higher in demand classes will often pull out on a whim when they get tells/bored, so it takes an extensive period of time even if you're very proactive about making groups.

[Swish]

Hard getting a group as a SK in Mistmoore yesterday, the min/max crowd is thriving.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Alive and well, thanks for asking.

[tanknspank]

The kind of hybrid seems to matter a lot more. I've yet to see a SK or bard turned down because they're a hybrid. On the other hand the ranger competes with every other DPS class out there so groups have a lot more room to be picky about it.

[August]

That's bullshit, I could easily tank/pull/dps with the best in xp groups, especially in KC, but I'm not about to get into a ranger argument. The problem with making your own groups is that higher in demand classes will often pull out on a whim when they get tells/bored, so it takes an extensive period of time even if you're very proactive about making groups.

i'm not saying you can't do those things, just that my monk can do all of them better.

[fadetree]

I HATE ME SUM RANGER

Sk's too, big stinky doofuses, and the Paladins prancing around flashing light in your eyes like a bunch a damned poofs, trying to touch you in your special place. ITS DISGUSTING


Now, how bout a Monk? Or Rogue? Yeah buddy get ya some tasty doings there. You can be exactly like all the cool kids. Pressing dat 'A', flopping around on the ground, trying to come up with a name thats like stabby or pointy or Kung fu or something, now THATS living. Groups? Yar, all you want, in all the BEST PLACES. You know, the standard places that you get made fun of if you don't go to. Now thats sum EQ right there.

[August]

I HATE ME SUM RANGER

Sk's too, big stinky doofuses, and the Paladins prancing around flashing light in your eyes like a bunch a damned poofs, trying to touch you in your special place. ITS DISGUSTING


Now, how bout a Monk? Or Rogue? Yeah buddy get ya some tasty doings there. You can be exactly like all the cool kids. Pressing dat 'A', flopping around on the ground, trying to come up with a name thats like stabby or pointy or Kung fu or something, now THATS living. Groups? Yar, all you want, in all the BEST PLACES. You know, the standard places that you get made fun of if you don't go to. Now thats sum EQ right there.

I grouped with 3 rogues last night: Stabbish, Roguette, and Akilla

[Tankdan]

If there's 1 hybrid in group im okay with that

2 hybrids in group? I contemplate what I am doing with my life.

3 I insta-disband.

[Fiyero]

The kind of hybrid seems to matter a lot more. I've yet to see a SK or bard turned down because they're a hybrid. On the other hand the ranger competes with every other DPS class out there so groups have a lot more room to be picky about it.

SKs get turned down quite a bit, mainly because their XP penalty is the highest (most i've seen are Iksar/Troll). Bards usually don't get turned down, because they're unique.

[Fiyero]

I grouped with 3 rogues last night: Stabbish, Roguette, and Akilla

We had 4 rogues ;)

[fadetree]

If there's 1 hybrid in group im okay with that

2 hybrids in group? I contemplate what I am doing with my life.

3 I insta-disband.

Noted.

[Troxx]

They should just remove the penalty now.

[August]

We had 4 rogues ;)

Oh the one that started with 'War' as well. He kept pulling from me.

I'll give you this, I bet rangers keep aggro better than a monk until 50.

[Dunes]

We had 4 rogues ;)

Haha yes, I was in that group - good times. 4 rogues:
Stabbish
Roguette
Allisha
Warpsawn

I think fadetree is being facetious though - its a comment on min-maxing leading to masses of monks and other popular race/class combos swarming all of the popular zones in an attempt to fast track to the end-game (instead of enjoying a unique character and attempting some of the darker reaches of Norrath).

Im sometimes guilty of min-maxing (like with my rogue), but I also take a bit of pride in setting out with unique goals such as leveling entirely in dungeons, or forming groups for some of the empty zones.

Anyway, to comment in response to the OP: having leveled several hybrids over the years, Ive found that each character needs to develop a close-knit set of friends. Yes, guild helps and being a min-max class/race helps, but the most important aspect is getting along with folks that like to have you around and will join/send invites when it comes time to group up.

The flip side of that is that even at 1k+ people, most others online are interacting within their respective circles and inviting/joining their friends, leaving very little room for someone sitting LFG unless they are desperate. Sure, plenty of times being in the right place at the right time helps, but greatest advantage you have for getting groups is people knowing (and liking) you. So get online, reconnect with old acquaintances and dust that ranger off ;)

[Laugher]

After avoiding grouping with various hybrids and expressing my distaste for them (well, I was a druid initially and it was really easy to get awesome xp without anyone else) I made a pally on blue recently.. after about 30ks worth of twinking a pally is quite a liveable class up to level 10 at least :)

I would say my newly invested hybrid alt was in part Stinkum's fault.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108428

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Haha yes, I was in that group - good times. 4 rogues:
Stabbish
Roguette
Allisha
Warpsawn

I think fadetree is being facetious though - its a comment on min-maxing leading to masses of monks and other popular race/class combos swarming all of the popular zones in an attempt to fast track to the end-game (instead of enjoying a unique character and attempting some of the darker reaches of Norrath).

Im sometimes guilty of min-maxing (like with my rogue), but I also take a bit of pride in setting out with unique goals such as leveling entirely in dungeons, or forming groups for some of the empty zones.

Anyway, to comment in response to the OP: having leveled several hybrids over the years, Ive found that each character needs to develop a close-knit set of friends. Yes, guild helps and being a min-max class/race helps, but the most important aspect is getting along with folks that like to have you around and will join/send invites when it comes time to group up.

The flip side of that is that even at 1k+ people, most others online are interacting within their respective circles and inviting/joining their friends, leaving very little room for someone sitting LFG unless they are desperate. Sure, plenty of times being in the right place at the right time helps, but greatest advantage you have for getting groups is people knowing (and liking) you. So get online, reconnect with old acquaintances and dust that ranger off ;)

Dog, we had like 6 mobs outside vp in window at the same time. Ain't got time to be fucking off in whatever level 30 areas you may be in. Need dem rogues PARKED.

[SCB]

If there's 1 hybrid in group im okay with that

2 hybrids in group? I contemplate what I am doing with my life.

3 I insta-disband.

You should learn how xp works in this game. It's on the wiki. Go read.

[fadetree]

Oh the one that started with 'War' as well. He kept pulling from me.

I'll give you this, I bet rangers keep aggro better than a monk until 50.

And after, if casting is added in. spamming Snare+flamelick+dps = more or less perma aggro. A maxed rogue or a well geared and knowledgable monk can grab it occasionaly, but they won't keep it. Different story if I'm out of mana.

[Pullyn]

I've got a Paladin who is 38 or so now, and mostly I've had no issues getting groups. From what I can tell hybrids are great leveling xp group tanks especially if you have an epic rogue in the group. That being said don't expect to be of much use for higher end content, minus taking death touches that is.

[danceparty]

confirmed only way to get a ranger to 60 is three boxing.

[Clark]

Methinks hybrid hate and ranger hate are two different stories.

Lol

[Troxx]

Halfway through 52 as a bard ... Would be 55 with a class/race with no xp penalty.

... and I take a portion of the xp the size of a level 55 in all groups I join. I suppose I could cheese my way to 60 kiting in BW but I'd prefer to play the game. At least I'm not a ranger and groups have a reason to invite me.

They just need to remove the xp penalty now given how long kunark has been out and how close velious allegedly is.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I've got a Paladin who is 38 or so now, and mostly I've had no issues getting groups. From what I can tell hybrids are great leveling xp group tanks especially if you have an epic rogue in the group. That being said don't expect to be of much use for higher end content, minus taking death touches that is.

At the end of the day, good players are good players though. Corova's a useless touchpad(trackball?) using fuck no doubt, but, he sows people, gets secondary, takes charms / dts, handles officer shit. As hard as it is to admit, he pulls his own. He does melee for some reason though instead of spothealing the tank, but at least he's good for a LOH sometimes :P

[psway]

I could get behind removing this penalty. I belong in the camp of sometimes changes should correlate more with the time than the content it was released with. Due to obvious distortions in the time frame here.

I'm curious to hear what opponents have to say about holding onto the penalty?

[Aben]

We had 4 rogues ;)


You Epic rogues grow on trees in CoM. :). Hella fun watching that exp fly with all that dps!

[sox7d]

Ranger here. Started my own groups or comandeered others in MM lvls 20-39. Got good with harmony/camo/bind sight/pathing and could take camps that people usually never touched when pond/GY/CE was taken. Never really had much of a problem LFG... Either that or pull out all stops and be social. People will usually dgaf penalty if you establish yourself as their bro. In my time in MM, I've had multiple people say I should charge for my pulling as a ranger.

Worst of it was a guy who already established himself as an asshole trying to take a camp solo that my group had for 5 hours while we wiped 4 minute earlier. We said he was welcome to join but replied "Naw man, rangers take my exp."

CoM is a bit worse, especially with all the 50+ soloing lvl 40 camps, and powerlevelers/shaman+monk duos taking the rest. But starting groups and chain pulling in EJ with track (Only 10% less ZEM than CoM!) is a pretty easy alternative. Same with asking people to just make retard groups until they find a real one with a no-hard-feelings clause on leaving can sometimes lead to a solid group. I remember some of the best EXP i've gotten was ranger, rogue, iks monk, iks monk, bard fear kiting on the bridge at CoM ent. Meanwhile the WORST group I'd been in was ranger(tank built), enchanter, cleric, rogue, rogue, rogue(Enchanter was chain mezzing the mobs its animation was attacking, cleric had a bad attitude and two of the rogues were on netflix duty most of the time. Other rogue and me were crying) A rag-tag, atypical group that knows how to play goes much further than a hyper efficient built team of retards.

Just gotta be creative. Break the meta.


That all being said, I have no idea what being a hybrid is like 50+.

[Mongaloid1612]

I have been playing my paladin Kataka and i find that if you can host a grp keep it going and show people that where your Xping is good your in, I took several groups to Sola and have spent countless hours there grinding with minimal deaths i now have lines for my groups just who you know and what you do to get the groups.

[Champion_Standing]

Has nothing to do with hybrids or exp penalties, Pretty much every class aside from ranger is worth the penalty assuming you need their respective role.

[Lune]

Ranger here. Started my own groups or comandeered others in MM lvls 20-39. Got good with harmony/camo/bind sight/pathing and could take camps that people usually never touched when pond/GY/CE was taken. Never really had much of a problem LFG... Either that or pull out all stops and be social. People will usually dgaf penalty if you establish yourself as their bro. In my time in MM, I've had multiple people say I should charge for my pulling as a ranger.

Worst of it was a guy who already established himself as an asshole trying to take a camp solo that my group had for 5 hours while we wiped 4 minute earlier. We said he was welcome to join but replied "Naw man, rangers take my exp."

CoM is a bit worse, especially with all the 50+ soloing lvl 40 camps, and powerlevelers/shaman+monk duos taking the rest. But starting groups and chain pulling in EJ with track (Only 10% less ZEM than CoM!) is a pretty easy alternative. Same with asking people to just make retard groups until they find a real one with a no-hard-feelings clause on leaving can sometimes lead to a solid group. I remember some of the best EXP i've gotten was ranger, rogue, iks monk, iks monk, bard fear kiting on the bridge at CoM ent. Meanwhile the WORST group I'd been in was ranger(tank built), enchanter, cleric, rogue, rogue, rogue(Enchanter was chain mezzing the mobs its animation was attacking, cleric had a bad attitude and two of the rogues were on netflix duty most of the time. Other rogue and me were crying) A rag-tag, atypical group that knows how to play goes much further than a hyper efficient built team of retards.

Just gotta be creative. Break the meta.


That all being said, I have no idea what being a hybrid is like 50+.

this man knows

[Lictor]

Shm monk duo when we leveled up. Always started own group bc of the foundation of the two. Of course excluding hybrid exp penalty sinks happened often. SK were welcome, allowed mnk to chain pull etc not worrying about tanking and aggro making healing easier. Any other hybrid generally not allowed unless could add something the duo couldn't.

[Dragonsblood1987]

The short answer: No Velious yet. Still XP penalties

http://rantsandflames.com/xpcalc.php



This calculator will show you what lvl the hybrids need to be for everyone to get the same % of xp in a group. fear not the SKs

[foldupmonk]

Has nothing to do with hybrids or exp penalties, Pretty much every class aside from ranger is worth the penalty assuming you need their respective role.

Die. Please Die..... douche

Edit after just tanking a group and doing decent since all of the other classes wont group, I prove my point for rangers. Douche

[kaev]

I could get behind removing this penalty. I belong in the camp of sometimes changes should correlate more with the time than the content it was released with. Due to obvious distortions in the time frame here.

I'm curious to hear what opponents have to say about holding onto the penalty?

:classic: nerds are :classic: and have no reference to anything other than :classic:. Not really any point in asking them for a reaction to rational argument, they have rejected rationality in the name of :truebelief: before they started. (No, I'm not really judging despite the sarcasm. :classic: is where they're at, rationality is mostly irrelevant to :classic:. In EQ :classic: is the alpha, the omega, and everything else besides from their perspective.)

As I recall things, the hybrid XP penalty was hidden/denied until ~ half-way thru Kunark when it was proven to exist as part of a comprehensive analysis of the way XP worked in EQ at the time. PUGs for hybrids evaporated as the word spread through the player community. It was irrational beyond the min-maxing that happens here. For example, a couple of times I had groups of three undergeared toons at the FM giant fort refusing to add my paladin even while they watched me solo giants at better than half the pace they were managing with three toons. The removal of the hybrid xp penalty was purely a CS (as in customer service) evolution that had nothing to do with gameplay, just as the earlier removal of the idiotic hybrid mana penalty and the (also hidden) hybrid spell mana cost penalty (that's right, they penalized hybrids both in the size of mana pool and in the cost of casting spells, troll SKs could NOT cast their L1 necro pet at L9 when they first got spells.)

For a player community perspective, much of the :classic: shit that was patched out and/or reworked by mid velious should NOT be replicated because it had to do more with company-player relations than with game design. But :classic: nerds gonna :classic:, so what can you do?

(And seriously, this server exists only because a couple guys decided they wanted to see what happened if they headed down the :classic: path, and I love this server, so I'm quite happy enough with p99 as it is and as it has evolved. It's fun here.)

[kaev]

Has nothing to do with hybrids or exp penalties, Pretty much every class aside from ranger is worth the penalty assuming you need their respective role.

Live needed snare a lot more than p99 ever has. To the point that necro/sk snare was often viewed as not good enough. Why?
1) Root worked too well here
2) For a long time some mobs that ran on live didn't run here (LGuk ghouls, for instance)
3) Root worked WAY too reliably here
4) Agro here is much less crazy than live (mobs already agro'd here don't proximity agro as they did on live is the hugest most glaring difference)
5) Root here was awesome, root on live was "shit, hope root holds"
6) Most chars here are way overgeared for the era

Even worse here for druids than rangers, because ON LIVE EVAC WAS VALUABLE AND USED EVEN IN GROUPS OF SKILLED PLAYERS WITH A COMPETENT ENCHANTER OR SKILLED BARD IN THE PARTY. Sorry about the shouting, but really, a lot of the dungeon gameplay here is nothing to the excitement of dungeon gameplay on live. Yes, when live LGuk was carpeted end-to-end with campers for that last 8 weeks or so before Kunark released it was pretty tame. Outside of that brief period tho, I can't recall live gameplay being nearly as tame as it usually is here...


Rose-colored glasses?... check!

[tanknspank]

There's some pretty big discrepancies in root/snare and mobs running between P99 and classic. I don't have exact rules/numbers, but I have a strong feeling that the running logic and speed are differently implemented here. I remember in classic in the CT courtyard, mobs trying to run even when you had others near / mezzed. In Guk you could forget trying to get anything done without snare.

[Cecily]

Flee mechanics are and have been completely broken for a long time. Since March at least, the time I've been leveling my ranger.

[Champion_Standing]

Die. Please Die..... douche

Edit after just tanking a group and doing decent since all of the other classes wont group, I prove my point for rangers. Douche

Almost any group, including yours when you aren't crusading for rangers will take an iksar monk with their 44% penalty over a ranger with their 40% penalty any day. I don't hate rangers, I am just making the point that the exp penalty is really not the issue.

When you find a group that wants the ranger over the monk screenshot it plz

[fadetree]

The issue is that people generally don't know shit about rangers and just believe what the cool kids say.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Nah, the issue is who the fuck is grouping between 20 and 60. PL + Chardok :P

[Daywolf]

Problem is ranger is a class, not a player. While I have nothing against the class, even played ranger the first six years of live, I do have problems with players that cant play the class properly in a group, which from my cleric character perspective (the other I usually play) is typically many ranger players.

It's a very difficult class to play in proper groups. Small out-door roaming groups they are great, but go to KC or some such place, it can be a different play style and not all players adapt well to that. Then you wind up with a ninja looting heal sucking know-it-all wannabe tank player slowing everyone up while casters have no one protecting their casts because the ranger is trying too hard to out-aggro tanks and not paying attention to the situation.

Rangers starting groups don't solve the problem either, at least not for indoor groups, just means a group not to join because then you know the ranger has a poor rep and cant get a group unless they try to start one. Good group rangers, yeah they have quite a value, but unfortunately that's just not the norm. I don't play a ranger here apart from a gfay bound ranger (for low-lvl fun), but on live I never had problems getting into any groups based on rep. A good ranger learns how to protect the space between the tank and the casters, and will build your rep to get asked to join groups.

[Fiyero]

Nah, the issue is who the fuck is grouping between 20 and 60. PL + Chardok :P

Not all of us can afford Chardok AE group spots :p

[Jaxon]

I would take a ranger who knows how to dps without taking damage over a rogue who crowds rooted mobs and backstabs before the tank can get aggro any day of the week.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Not all of us can afford Chardok AE group spots :p

So just borrow a 60 enc / clr / factioned puller / wiz?

[webrunner5]

If you silly Bastards are worried about who is in your F'ing group well don't F'ing group. What in the hell do you have else to do?? Christ this IS a damn game. There are real people on the other end of these toons. If you need to min max that much just go the hell away. God damn, the more I play on here the more I think half the people on here are just total dick heads. Get over it. Play nice and have fun, not be some total ass hole. :mad: Who gives a rats ass what class you are and what gear you have. It doesn't matter. Try to be the best player in your class and help others out. Play the god damn game to play the game.

[Kekephee]

If you silly Bastards are worried about who is in your F'ing group well don't F'ing group. What in the hell do you have else to do?? Christ this IS a damn game. There are real people on the other end of these toons. If you need to min max that much just go the hell away. God damn, the more I play on here the more I think half the people on here are just total dick heads. Get over it. Play nice and have fun, not be some total ass hole. :mad: Who gives a rats ass what class you are and what gear you have. It doesn't matter. Try to be the best player in your class and help others out. Play the god damn game to play the game.

There's a really great writeup on the wiki about how if you want to offset the exp penalty from people in your group, you should try killing more mobs

[tanknspank]

I would take a ranger who knows how to dps without taking damage over a rogue who crowds rooted mobs and backstabs before the tank can get aggro any day of the week.

Of course, but what if you had 1 spot and to chose between equally skilled ranger or rogue?

[Cecily]

Of course, but what if you had 1 spot and to chose between equally skilled ranger or rogue?

The problem with rogues is they have very little control over their environment. My situational awareness has gone way up since I've become a ranger. I just scream in my head watching other root CC classes and tanks just be terrible, all the while helpless to do anything but assist the tank who's targeting the enc's pet.

WTS alot of resist gear. WTB alot of root nets. PST.

[Erectus]

there is alot of ranger bashing on this server but also alot of the rangers here are probably not so great. I've got a lvl 40 ranger and she's pretty twinked (RBB, JBoM, will have EoN soon), so even without casting spells I frequently pull aggro just by my DPS, which is akin to a rogue without the backstabs. A good ranger is highly valuable though. The main reason is the efficiency that they can create in terms of easily killing mobs and and controlling the situation. Root-parking adds is sooo good. You can set up a chain of mobs to be killed and you can tank them long enough to root them all. They also have harmony, one of the best spells in the game. Just having those 2 spells makes a formidable character because you have the ability to control the flow of xp in a safe manner. A proper ranger knows how to chain pull effectively as well. Yes, they are better in outdoor zones because that 200 range bow with 150 range arrows means I can shoot anything in sight. However, even in indoor zones, a good ranger knows how to bring the next mob/mobs just as the previous one is about to die.

Rangers are NOT tanks though. Idk why people think they need to tank on a ranger... if you're the MT, something's wrong. Rangers are just barely better tanks than rogues. Rangers do, however, make EXCELLENT off-tanks and interceptors. Ranger healing is the worst in the game, but at level 40, my 100 point heal can still save an enchanter, if my roots didn't already save them. You know how many enchanters use AOE mezz? Way too many. Eventually they get greater healing too which is nice.

But let's say there's a monk in the group and the monk wants to pull... Perfect. Ranger now gets to focus on DPS and rooting adds. Also, if the ranger doesnt have to pull, they get to sit between killing. Which means there is healing going on between pulls, which helps caster mana. Worst case scenario is that the ranger heals a shaman while they canni.

Ranger is just a niche class that can also be a little versatile. Let's not forget that they are also really fun to play. I won't encourage people to make rangers however, especially not new players. Because of the perception on this server towards hybrids, you really need to be twinked and competent for people to want you in their groups.

[Cecily]

Rangers tank fine.

[Cecily]

there is alot of ranger bashing on this server but also alot of the rangers here are probably not so great. I've got a lvl 40 ranger and she's pretty twinked (RBB, JBoM, will have EoN soon), so even without casting spells I frequently pull aggro just by my DPS, which is akin to a rogue without the backstabs. A good ranger is highly valuable though. The main reason is the efficiency that they can create in terms of easily killing mobs and and controlling the situation. Root-parking adds is sooo good. You can set up a chain of mobs to be killed and you can tank them long enough to root them all. They also have harmony, one of the best spells in the game. Just having those 2 spells makes a formidable character because you have the ability to control the flow of xp in a safe manner. A proper ranger knows how to chain pull effectively as well. Yes, they are better in outdoor zones because that 200 range bow with 150 range arrows means I can shoot anything in sight. However, even in indoor zones, a good ranger knows how to bring the next mob/mobs just as the previous one is about to die.

Rangers are NOT tanks though. Idk why people think they need to tank on a ranger... if you're the MT, something's wrong. Rangers are just barely better tanks than rogues. Rangers do, however, make EXCELLENT off-tanks and interceptors. Ranger healing is the worst in the game, but at level 40, my 100 point heal can still save an enchanter, if my roots didn't already save them. You know how many enchanters use AOE mezz? Way too many. Eventually they get greater healing too which is nice.

But let's say there's a monk in the group and the monk wants to pull... Perfect. Ranger now gets to focus on DPS and rooting adds. Also, if the ranger doesnt have to pull, they get to sit between killing. Which means there is healing going on between pulls, which helps caster mana. Worst case scenario is that the ranger heals a shaman while they canni.

Ranger is just a niche class that can also be a little versatile. Let's not forget that they are also really fun to play. I won't encourage people to make rangers however, especially not new players. Because of the perception on this server towards hybrids, you really need to be twinked and competent for people to want you in their groups.

This is why I couldn't be an English Teacher.

[Erectus]

This is why I couldn't be an English Teacher.

This is why I generally avoid these forums.

[sox7d]

If you silly Bastards are worried about who is in your F'ing group well don't F'ing group. What in the hell do you have else to do?? Christ this IS a damn game. There are real people on the other end of these toons. If you need to min max that much just go the hell away. God damn, the more I play on here the more I think half the people on here are just total dick heads. Get over it. Play nice and have fun, not be some total ass hole. :mad: Who gives a rats ass what class you are and what gear you have. It doesn't matter. Try to be the best player in your class and help others out. Play the god damn game to play the game.

^

Not every class can solo which translates to not every class is able to play the game whenever they want to. We're all in this together and generosity/friendship goes a long way in this game. If I have a group doing fine with tank, chanter, healer, dps and I see a shadowknight LFG for more than one two /oocs, I'll invite them. The tiny bit of lost experience isn't worth watching someone sitting on their ass, waiting to play when they could be chilling with us. I also take solace in that exp is never wasted, it all gets allocated to someone's definitive, necessary number of experience points for 1 to 60.

That being said, in the few times that I've invited people to groups when we were doing just fine without them and the next time they wouldn't invite me because their camp was down fine as is. Fuck those people. However, most of the time people return the favor.

Problem is ranger is a class, not a player. While I have nothing against the class, even played ranger the first six years of live, I do have problems with players that cant play the class properly in a group, which from my cleric character perspective (the other I usually play) is typically many ranger players.

It's a very difficult class to play in proper groups. Small out-door roaming groups they are great, but go to KC or some such place, it can be a different play style and not all players adapt well to that. Then you wind up with a ninja looting heal sucking know-it-all wannabe tank player slowing everyone up while casters have no one protecting their casts because the ranger is trying too hard to out-aggro tanks and not paying attention to the situation.

Rangers starting groups don't solve the problem either, at least not for indoor groups, just means a group not to join because then you know the ranger has a poor rep and cant get a group unless they try to start one. Good group rangers, yeah they have quite a value, but unfortunately that's just not the norm. I don't play a ranger here apart from a gfay bound ranger (for low-lvl fun), but on live I never had problems getting into any groups based on rep. A good ranger learns how to protect the space between the tank and the casters, and will build your rep to get asked to join groups.

This post surprised me since nearly every ranger I've grouped with played wonderfully. Probably based on "fat chicks give better blow jobs because they have to" logic and also since on a server of people who've been playing this game for 15 years, everyone knows rangers aren't optimal, so people usually don't pursue the class unless they know what they're getting into.


Of course, but what if you had 1 spot and to chose between equally skilled ranger or rogue?

I'd take the rogue, unless the ranger had been LFG for at least 5 minutes before the rogue.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Not all of us can afford Chardok AE group spots :p

So just borrow a 60 enc / clr / factioned puller / wiz?

Heallun you sound like those out-of-touch 1%er who were born rich lol.

"Well it's not hard, sell one of your companies, divert your stock into a secondary split and initiate a take-over on your competitor, you then use the remaining dividends to buy your private jet, it's really not complicated :confused::confused::confused:"

As for the subject at hand:

The quality of the player is more important than the class they play. Levelling in EQ is like a road trip. It's gonna be long and often boring, so i'd rather do a road trip with friends in an old clunker than being in a mercedes with assholes and a driver who doesn't know how to fucking drive.

People who say rangers suck obviously never grouped with a skilled one. Yes, rogue is better (best) dps, everybody knows that, but a well-played ranger is definitely worth its spot in a group.

[Alanus]

On live as a paladin, in KC, guk and seb, I was often the puller and CC for groups. I once CCed king camp in seb even (was a very high DPS group).

Root + good tanking ability made it pretty easy.

After celestial cleansing comes out, soloing becomes very feasible at 59 (or whenever you get the spell).

[Daywolf]

This post surprised me since nearly every ranger I've grouped with played wonderfully. Probably based on "fat chicks give better blow jobs because they have to" logic and also since on a server of people who've been playing this game for 15 years, everyone knows rangers aren't optimal, so people usually don't pursue the class unless they know what they're getting into.
Rangers tank fine.
hehehehe

For the irony of it all, I have a "Ranger Down!" shout button on my ranger.

[SCB]

As an enchanter main, I'd rather have a ranger than a warrior in my group literally any time that isn't a raid. This "rangers can't tank" crap is just silly. Warrior aggro is absolute trash, and nothing on this server is difficult enough in a group to need warrior defensive skills unless it's a rad mob.

All class hate is just "it is known" silliness and not at all anything practical.

[Brutal_X]

I don't think it's so much that Rangers are bad... but there are other classes that are just so much better. Sure, Rangers can be good if the controller is very skilled but then and only then are they really effective. Most classes are much more simple with a better outcome in the end. Saying a Ranger is better than a Rogue DPS wise is silly if they are equally skilled.

[a_gnoll_pup]

Some groups won't take me because I am a bard, and rightfully so tbh

It's classic.

[Daywolf]

As an enchanter main, I'd rather have a ranger than a warrior in my group literally any time that isn't a raid. This "rangers can't tank" crap is just silly. Warrior aggro is absolute trash, and nothing on this server is difficult enough in a group to need warrior defensive skills unless it's a rad mob.

All class hate is just "it is known" silliness and not at all anything practical.
Because you're not healing the ranger. The warrior sucks up damage and actually heals up well enough w/o fast health drops. They "can tank" but your healer is going to be 0m much of the time... which means less heals for you and slower pulls overall. Ranger should be on MA/dps, rooting mob breaks towards the casters, keeping just enough aggro but not too much to start loosing tons of health to burn healer mana. Casters also need to watch aggro and get timing down, especially wizards :D
And it doesn't really get any better with expansions, ranger is just no tank (well probably on live everyone is a MT now). That's just how they're built, like round peg in square hole if trying to be the MT. Stop trying to sell them off as a tank, it does them/the class no real service compared to what they can actually do well.

[Xer0]

The quality of the player is more important than the class they play. Levelling in EQ is like a road trip. It's gonna be long and often boring, so i'd rather do a road trip with friends in an old clunker than being in a mercedes with assholes and a driver who doesn't know how to fucking drive.



kudos for that

[Erydan Ouragan]

Because you're not healing the ranger. The warrior sucks up damage and actually heals up well enough w/o fast health drops. They "can tank" but your healer is going to be 0m much of the time... which means less heals for you and slower pulls overall. Ranger should be on MA/dps, rooting mob breaks towards the casters, keeping just enough aggro but not too much to start loosing tons of health to burn healer mana. Casters also need to watch aggro and get timing down, especially wizards :D
And it doesn't really get any better with expansions, ranger is just no tank (well probably on live everyone is a MT now). That's just how they're built, like round peg in square hole if trying to be the MT. Stop trying to sell them off as a tank, it does them/the class no real service compared to what they can actually do well.

70% slow = ranger can not only tank, but has excellent snap/sustained threat. They have parry, dodge and riposte, albeit at a lower cap than a warrior.

If the chanter is actually paying attention and turns off his netflix/youporn tab, a quick AE mez and a slow on the main target in case of a critical lull resist can do wonders.

Once the camp is broken or you only have 1 or 2 adds once in a while though, it's GG.

[Brutal_X]

70% slow = ranger can not only tank, but has excellent snap/sustained threat. They have parry, dodge and riposte, albeit at a lower cap than a warrior.

If the chanter is actually paying attention and turns off his netflix/youporn tab, a quick AE mez and a slow on the main target in case of a critical lull resist can do wonders.

Once the camp is broken or you only have 1 or 2 adds once in a while though, it's GG.

Monks can do this without an enchanter. Although I will agree that Ranger's are probably better outdoor pullers. Although this entirely depends on skill as Range is totally based on skill.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Monks can do this without an enchanter. Although I will agree that Ranger's are probably better outdoor pullers. Although this entirely depends on skill as Range is totally based on skill.

Exactly my point.

Tanking is two things: Having enough hitpoints to soak up the damage and keep the mob on you.

Slow makes "having enough hp" trivial, anybody can tank a slowed mob. Monks don't have snap agro abilities or taunt, they use pure dps. Rangers have plenty of abilities to keep the mob's attention on them.

Of course if you don't have a slower in your group, paladin is the best group tank, followed by SK, then warrior.

[Brutal_X]

Exactly my point.

Tanking is two things: Having enough hitpoints to soak up the damage and keep the mob on you.

Slow makes "having enough hp" trivial, anybody can tank a slowed mob. Monks don't have snap agro abilities or taunt, they use pure dps. Rangers have plenty of abilities to keep the mob's attention on them.

Of course if you don't have a slower in your group, paladin is the best group tank, followed by SK, then warrior.

Yes maybe true but I've never grouped with an effective Ranger tank. Maybe I've just been with a lot of noobs.

[Daywolf]

70% slow = ranger can not only tank, but has excellent snap/sustained threat. They have parry, dodge and riposte, albeit at a lower cap than a warrior.Pretty much this thinking leads to group wipes... or just a ranger that quits getting heals and told to step back to bandage themselves and let the tanks take back aggro :(

dood my ranger can soooo tank! :rolleyes:

[Ciroco]

Pretty much this thinking leads to group wipes... or just a ranger that quits getting heals and told to step back to bandage themselves and let the tanks take back aggro :(

dood my ranger can soooo tank! :rolleyes:

Literally any non-int caster can tank most mobs that are 70% or 75% slowed, and Rangers are maybe second to only Monks among combinations of aggro and DPS. There are situations where it works well.

[SCB]

Because you're not healing the ranger. The warrior sucks up damage and actually heals up well enough w/o fast health drops. They "can tank" but your healer is going to be 0m much of the time... which means less heals for you and slower pulls overall.


This is simply not true. On this server, there is almost no group content short of HS (and arguably HS North is doable depending on group makeup) that a ranger can't tank with negligible difference to a warrior, assuming the group has even just enchanter slow.

By the same token, I've seen warriors in full crafted tank Chef and Disco in seb, replacing the typically hate/cobalt mix you see, and nothing change with regard to exp gain. Mobs just really aren't that difficult if players are even remotely competent.

[Daywolf]

This is simply not true. On this server, there is almost no group content short of HS (and arguably HS North is doable depending on group makeup) that a ranger can't tank with negligible difference to a warrior, assuming the group has even just enchanter slow.

By the same token, I've seen warriors in full crafted tank Chef and Disco in seb, replacing the typically hate/cobalt mix you see, and nothing change with regard to exp gain. Mobs just really aren't that difficult if players are even remotely competent.
uh-huh... Just like tonight, our group got wiped, ranger not paying attention and thinking he's a tank while he sucks up everyones heals. Then goes all pissy ballistic when he goes down after fumbling into someones else's death train (and he got warned it was there) dragging them onto us thinking the healers can keep him up. Rangers pown as tanks! Obviously the healers fault :rolleyes:
Oh well, what can you expect from rangers in pugs I guess. You guys insisting rangers are tanks, yeah I'm sure are bad. And sadly I see a lot of that in-game.

[fastboy21]

uh-huh... Just like tonight, our group got wiped, ranger not paying attention and thinking he's a tank while he sucks up everyones heals. Then goes all pissy ballistic when he goes down after fumbling into someones else's death train (and he got warned it was there) dragging them onto us thinking the healers can keep him up. Rangers pown as tanks! Obviously the healers fault :rolleyes:
Oh well, what can you expect from rangers in pugs I guess. You guys insisting rangers are tanks, yeah I'm sure are bad. And sadly I see a lot of that in-game.

most of the rangers i meet at this point (i'd say at least 4 out of 5) are hella twinked projects...and they generally are played by very competent aware players.

i'm not denying that your ranger was crap...but its def the exception from the ones i've played with this summer.

[Ciroco]

Your proof that Rangers can't tank is that your Ranger trained you and wiped your group?

[Laugher]

Think this came up last summer but fwiw I had a ranger tank for 3 days at least 4 hrs straight in lguk. I was a druid and I still had mana with no ench in the group :) not sure if dude was a twinked beast or what, but he was a ranger and was able to tank frenzy pretty smoothly

[Daywolf]

most of the rangers i meet at this point (i'd say at least 4 out of 5) are hella twinked projects...and they generally are played by very competent aware players.

i'm not denying that your ranger was crap...but its def the exception from the ones i've played with this summer.
Well yeah, like I said, not all rangers are crap, and even spoke positively about rangers... some of them anywat, the class. But twinking doesn't really solve the problem. In fact "twinking" was commonly held as a bad word on live the first few years, sad to see it so well regarded here. I'd rather invite someone knowing what he should be doing in a proper group rather than someone twinked trying to do what they shouldn't be doing.
Your proof that Rangers can't tank is that your Ranger trained you and wiped your group?Proof? It's how they are built, they don't stand up as tanks due to their very nature. SOE never designed them to be tanks, and to do so is like trying to hammer a round peg into a square hole. It was always that way even at launch. Even AA didn't really improve the situation for us ranger players, since other classes got AA and trying to AA your ranger into a tank will still leave you at second best if even that. If you want to tank, roll a tank, seriously.

Now if you want to talk about the other things a ranger can do, the things that make them worth having in a group, well they are definitely good points, probably a ranger I'd invite to group. But to sell them off as tanks, just sort of demeans the class and only progresses your "ranger hate" stuff.

[Ciroco]

Proof? It's how they are built, they don't stand up as tanks due to their very nature. SOE never designed them to be tanks, and to do so is like trying to hammer a round peg into a square hole. It was always that way even at launch.

lol. Bards and monks weren't "designed" to be tanks either (as if what exists in game is a good representation of what SoE intended), but they tank all the time and do fine.

Even AA didn't really improve the situation for us ranger players, since other classes got AA and trying to AA your ranger into a tank will still leave you at second best if even that. If you want to tank, roll a tank, seriously.


I don't know what era you played until, but AAs were huge for Ranger group tanking. Yes, it leaves them at "second best". Why is that bad? Do all groups require the absolute best tank? Is trading some mitigation for DPS always a bad idea?

You're acting as if people are advocating Ranger MTs for every group. They're the 6th or 7th best in game at taking hits, yeah. The point is that there are plenty of situations where that's good enough.

[Daywolf]

You're acting as if people are advocating Ranger MTs for every group. They're the 6th or 7th best in game at taking hits, yeah. The point is that there are plenty of situations where that's good enough.And like I said, there are places where they can do that (e.g. vs animals outdoors etc). But in places like KC as I mentioned, well the group is pretty much doomed if you are trying to stick the ranger with tanky duty. They are not tanks, and you are not going to convince me otherwise, only get your group wiped. It's just foolishness, and I've seen too many rangers think that they are tanks ...but are not :rolleyes:

So no other selling points for rangers, eh? Just want to keep up the roxxor tank act. I could list lots of good points as to why to bring in a ranger to a proper group, but I'm sure wasted words here, it's all about the awesome tank they are.

[Ciroco]

Considering that KC is outdoors and that Rangers shine there more than probably any other popular group spot, I doubt you have actually played one here.

Come group with me some time. I'll even tank for you.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Daywolf, we're not saying they ARE tanks, we're saying they CAN tank. Nuance.

It's true that a paladin/SK/warrior will always be true tanks, but trust me, with the right group composition, rangers can definitely tank and do it well.

Sometimes there's just no "real" tanks available so what would you do? Sit with your thumb up your ass and wait, or grab a shammy/chanter and get the ranger to tank and have some xp?

It's not the optimal setup, of course, so people will actually have to play the game instead of watching TV semi-AFK, oh no.

[Daywolf]

Considering that KC is outdoors and that Rangers shine there more than probably any other popular group spot, I doubt you have actually played one here.

Come group with me some time. I'll even tank for you.
Doesn't matter if it's outdoors, you're going to get whacked and suck up all your parties heals. More than any class I've seen by far, rangers get kicked for this type of reckless gameplay. Thats why joe shmoe was saying a few pages back to just start a group then. But you know what? Some of us pay attention to who is forming groups. When you are dropping health like a two dollar hooker, you're no use to anybody. You can argue the point, but that's just the way things are.

I'll say this, SOE's idea of a ranger is fail. They should have gotten heavy archer armor. Thats mixed plate and chain. But they wanted to do some crazy high-fantasy thang, unrealistic in all ways. It's too bad.

And as I said, I don't play one here(not paying attention?). No freaken way, just a sub-20 ranger for fun around fay. I did my time, main for six years from live launch. When the first expansion came around I went cleric, but I played them both fully. When I left live and started on early peq, wanted nothing to do with ranger, and played most of the other classes. If you want to tank, just roll a tank, dude, seriously. Or go red, that would work too.

[koros]

And like I said, there are places where they can do that (e.g. vs animals outdoors etc). But in places like KC as I mentioned, well the group is pretty much doomed if you are trying to stick the ranger with tanky duty. They are not tanks, and you are not going to convince me otherwise, only get your group wiped. It's just foolishness, and I've seen too many rangers think that they are tanks ...but are not :rolleyes:

So no other selling points for rangers, eh? Just want to keep up the roxxor tank act. I could list lots of good points as to why to bring in a ranger to a proper group, but I'm sure wasted words here, it's all about the awesome tank they are.

If the healer is is never oom, why the fuck do you care who tanks as long as they can hold aggro? A cleric will never be OOM with constant pulls using even a halfway decent geared ranger in KC.

[kruptcy]

If the healer is is never oom, why the fuck do you care who tanks as long as they can hold aggro? A cleric will never be OOM with constant pulls using even a halfway decent geared ranger in KC.

qft?

[Daywolf]

If the healer is is never oom, why the fuck do you care who tanks as long as they can hold aggro? A cleric will never be OOM with constant pulls using even a halfway decent geared ranger in KC.
Ok here it comes...
/shout Ranger Down!

That's pretty much the situation where cleric unmems complete heal vs ranger AC and makes sure he has a sow up hehe. I mean if ranger can lay there unconscious long enough, complete heal may be doable for a few rounds... but probably not :rolleyes:

[hynch]

Ranger hate explained: Min/maxers are neckbeards/niceguys. Rangers are the asshole/douche/dudebro that always gets the girl. True story.

[sox7d]

Ranger haters be like the guy who, when you go to an aquarium with them and say, "Wow, look at that starfish," they respond, "Well, technically that's not a fish, it's called a seastar." And it's like, dude, fuck you. Sure, maybe it's not scientifically a fish, and I wasn't 100% flawless in my description and scientific knowledge of what it should be classified as, but you still knew what the fuck I was talking about and I got my point across about what I wanted you to look at.

[sulpher01]

It really comes down to twinkage for a ranger with me... Do u have tolans and your epics at 50? Seems to be a fad atm..otherwise id rather leave the spot open. And i love rangers, they just have to be super geared :D

[Daywolf]

Ranger haters be like the guy who, when you go to an aquarium with them and say, "Wow, look at that starfish," they respond, "Well, technically that's not a fish, it's called a seastar." And it's like, dude, fuck you. Sure, maybe it's not scientifically a fish, and I wasn't 100% flawless in my description and scientific knowledge of what it should be classified as, but you still knew what the fuck I was talking about and I got my point across about what I wanted you to look at.
Actually as far as for "ranger haters", imo it's usually a phrase that a player throws around who plays ranger and does it so bad that they cant get a group so they go around accusing everyone of being "ranger haters" ...but while good rangers keep getting asked to join groups. It's like saying rangerphobe, or some such silly PC '-phobe' dialog/tag to get sympathy to their own personal rejection based on their own failures and incompetencies with what they do.

The solution: as far as I'd say, roll a war, clr or enc first if you are just starting here, level up, have fun and make lots of plat. Then roll a ranger or some such class, twink them so you can solo well enough when you cant find groups, have fun. You will be spewing a lot less "ranger haters" even if it turns out you cant really play ranger very well, since it's not hard to play a war, clr or enc well enough to get groups when you want to group. I'm sure people will say blah-blah to this, or be outraged, but it's just a matter of adapting to the designed environment. Adapt or die, as they say. At least in the triune thing SOE devised, you won't be so agitated getting your first cap, then making it easier for the more challenging alt later on.

[sox7d]

Actually as far as for "ranger haters", imo it's usually a phrase that a player throws around who plays ranger and does it so bad that they cant get a group so they go around accusing everyone of being "ranger haters" ...but while good rangers keep getting asked to join groups. It's like saying rangerphobe, or some such silly PC '-phobe' dialog/tag to get sympathy to their own personal rejection based on their own failures and incompetencies with what they do.

dat assumptions


Or, no one regularly uses the term "ranger haters" and this thread wouldn't exist if there weren't "min-maxers."

[Lune]

Actually as far as for "ranger haters", imo it's usually a phrase that a player throws around who plays ranger and does it so bad that they cant get a group so they go around accusing everyone of being "ranger haters" ...but while good rangers keep getting asked to join groups. It's like saying rangerphobe, or some such silly PC '-phobe' dialog/tag to get sympathy to their own personal rejection based on their own failures and incompetencies with what they do.

The solution: as far as I'd say, roll a war, clr or enc first if you are just starting here, level up, have fun and make lots of plat. Then roll a ranger or some such class, twink them so you can solo well enough when you cant find groups, have fun. You will be spewing a lot less "ranger haters" even if it turns out you cant really play ranger very well, since it's not hard to play a war, clr or enc well enough to get groups when you want to group. I'm sure people will say blah-blah to this, or be outraged, but it's just a matter of adapting to the designed environment. Adapt or die, as they say. At least in the triune thing SOE devised, you won't be so agitated getting your first cap, then making it easier for the more challenging alt later on.

Bro I'm sorry that nobody was ever happy with your ranger's tanking on live or beyond. Do some gear research, seek the right group comps, use your spells. You can improve. People were always happy with my tanking.

http://i.imgur.com/VvW2bnK.jpg

[Troxx]

A mediocre ranger is a drain on the group. A mediocre bard is also a drain, but when all else fails they can just pulse mana every 3 seconds and do something marginally more productive than a mediocre ranger.

A well played ranger is a great asset, but it's a thankless job that might well go un-noticed.

You won't tank like a tank. You won't dps like a monk or rogue. You won't cc like a bard/ench. That dps you do provide is pretty good though, and if you don't accidentally get aggro and waste heals ... If you use your mana between pulls to top off the non tanks ... If you make sure shit is snared and adds on casters get rooted ... You will pull your weight.

It's similar playing a bard honestly. I pull well but rarely do it. I'd rather the tank bring 2 adds so I can charm one and mez the other and use that down time pulsing 3 rounds of mana and using lute with nivs and hymn to feed 40hp regen a tick to the whole group.

My clerics in a good group rarely need to waste mana on anything but a cheal for the tank.

I might not dps like a dps, but I'll make everyone else's job in the group easier and keep the xp flowing more than enough to make up for the xp penalty I have to deal with until velious. I'll make YOU waste less mana, give YOU more mana in your pool, make YOU dps better, keep the adds off YOU, and keep your health topped off without draining unnecessary mana from whoever is doing the healing.

[iruinedyourday]

Im sorry to say there are many nights where I have sat in silent reverence while a ranger kicked major ass... on behalf of all the good rangers out there this is my public thank you. If you are good at your class, somewhere, someone is very appreciative.

[Daywolf]

Bro I'm sorry that nobody was ever happy with your ranger's tanking on live or beyond. Do some gear research, seek the right group comps, use your spells. You can improve. People were always happy with my tanking.
hmm? like I said, never had problems getting groups on live. I definitely didn't go around trying to pass off my ranger as a tank though, and generally looked for well balanced groups from my friends list, get in on starting times so we didn't face much turnover. And if my friends needed a cleric, I'd happily switch to that when needed. I never bitched about ranger or got into all the "ranger hate" bs, that didn't effect me. Of course though, when on cleric, you see the difference with what a good ranger does and what a bad ranger can do. It's a tough class, it really is. Troxx wrote up a good post btw, can agree with that.

[fastboy21]

daywolf is wrong. most rangers can tank fine. obviously they aren't the number 1 tank class, but so what?

if your grp has a shaman anyone can tank in kc.

if your grp has a decent cleric and the ranger is well geared he can tank in kc. usually its a stop gap between a good grp splitting up and finding a dedicated tank class...and the ranger does the job just fine. there aren't always warriors/pallies/sks lfg.

if you are building a min/max grp then obviously you aren't going to pick ranger as the ideal tank. most of the time, most of us, are just looking to play and have some fun while getting some exp. ranger can fit into those grps just fine---and, to be honest, i wish all grps were like that on p99. what are you racing for? to be sat in static content when velious launches forever? seriously, min/maxers on a static emu server need a reality check.

ps. i've grped with cirocco in kc. he did a better job tanking than most "tank classes" and a better job pulling than most "puller" classes. the biggest reason to find a tank for the grp was so that he could go back to being a dedicated puller.

[Troxx]

Honestly which is a bigger drain on cleric mana?

-a ranger with decent mitigation but a low hp pool
-a warrior who can't hold aggro over the 2 epic rogues

Mana healing rogues is just as draining if not more so as main healing a ranger that doesn't lose aggro. The same holds true for bards who, quite frankly have threat generation higher than arguably anyone else. That slow/snare or even worse the slow/snare/debuff songs generate so much threat that I can't keep a mob permanently slowed unless grouped with a knight who is bringing their A game without having near permanent aggro.

Cheal + real tank is stupidly efficient - but that requires either a knight or a well geared warrior. That warrior will still require a lot of epic rogues to throttle back.

Rangers and bards are not 'tanks'. They can, however, tank - and they hold aggro exceptionally well. Whether or not they should depends entirely on the group ... But it is workable. When a real tank is around - they should be doing everything possible to not waste healer mana.

[sox7d]

I think it's hilarious that there are actually still people who don't believe rangers are the best tanks endgame, excluding raiding of course.

[tanknspank]

-a ranger with decent mitigation but a low hp pool
-a warrior who can't hold aggro over the 2 epic rogues
That's like asking "do you want a non-ideal substitute or do you want a complete waste of space?". Warriors aren't ideal for group tanking due to their hate generation issues. If you have your pick, and you need a group tank, you'll be looking to SK/PAL.

Rangers and bards are not 'tanks'. They can, however, tank - and they hold aggro exceptionally well. Whether or not they should depends entirely on the group ... But it is workable. When a real tank is around - they should be doing everything possible to not waste healer mana.
And that is what comes across as 'ranger hate'. Given equal gear/skill/social connection, the knight gets picked as tank. Need DPS? A long list of classes is up for that. Root CC? Again, plenty of choices.

Quite a few classes have xp group roles they will be sought out for. Others are very raid centric, but raiding is a social activity which at least gives them an edge in having guildmates to group with. The ranger is a mix of abilities, none of them unique. So unless you happen to need that specific mix they become a "I'll get the ranger since there's no ____ available" class.

[Troxx]

For a min/max group there is no reason to invite a ranger. I'll grant you that - they bring nothing to the table that other classes don't do better.

EQ is at its best when played socially. Especially on this server where the level will stop at 60 - your xp bar is not a fun meter. Rushing to 60 so you can ...

... Stand in line for your turn at a raid mob?
... Roll and alt?
... ... ... ?

My only real push for leveling is I want my 55 mana song. Beyond that, I actually want to be sub 60 when velious comes out. I'd like to actually do some xp work in velks etc - and I'd rather not have to make that final hell of a push with the 40% xp penalty I currently have.

Any group I form or end up with leader of will gladly take a ranger as long as they don't suck. If the group wants to snub them because they're not the best dps or because of the hybrid penalty, however ... I've left the group in the past and I might consider doing it again. We're all here to have fun. I find it hilarious when the same people will invite a less talented or more poorly geared iksar monk in the same breath. Maybe they aren't aware that an iksar monk carries a higher penalty.

Hopefully that whole penalty garbage will go away soon.

[webrunner5]

I am NOT a Ranger hater. I really like them. I play mine a lot solo. But I mostly play healer classes on here And I F'ing hate healing them. They are a paper tank. They are a total mana sink even for a Cleric. Don't give this shit about how they make great tanks. Maybe up to about level 30 35 they do, after that they are crap, and a nightmare to a healer. End of story. They make damn good pullers in outdoor zones and are pretty damn good at CC, But NOT as tanks. And if you have a Warrior as a tank in your group, which you should, good luck having him or her keeping agro with a Ranger beating on the mob. I pretty much just let the Ranger die, not the rest of the group lol. And a Bard is even worse as a Tank.

[sox7d]

I am NOT a Ranger hater. I really like them. I play mine a lot solo. But I mostly play healer classes on here And I F'ing hate healing them. They are a paper tank. They are a total mana sink even for a Cleric. Don't give this shit about how they make great tanks. Maybe up to about level 30 35 they do, after that they are crap, and a nightmare to a healer. End of story. They make damn good pullers in outdoor zones and are pretty damn good at CC, But NOT as tanks. And if you have a Warrior as a tank in your group, which you should, good luck having him or her keeping agro with a Ranger beating on the mob. I pretty much just let the Ranger die, not the rest of the group lol. And a Bard is even worse as a Tank.

ROFL, I play a ranger as my main and I get healed just fine. There is a 22 ac difference between deepwater/blood ember armor and tolan's, armor being negligible as it is and defense skill tests have been parsed to hell and show time and time again that after 200 it does. not. matter.. Stop projecting your bias.

[khanable]

ROFL, I play a ranger as my main and I get healed just fine. There is a 22 ac difference between deepwater/blood ember armor and tolan's, armor being negligible as it is and defense skill tests have been parsed to hell and show time and time again that after 200 it does. not. matter.. Stop projecting your bias.

Source?

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

ROFL, I play a ranger as my main and I get healed just fine. There is a 22 ac difference between deepwater/blood ember armor and tolan's, armor being negligible as it is and defense skill tests have been parsed to hell and show time and time again that after 200 it does. not. matter.. Stop projecting your bias.

Didn't do any tests but the most recent patch was supposed to fix AC significantly.

[fadetree]

And if you have a Warrior as a tank in your group, which you should, good luck having him or her keeping agro with a Ranger beating on the mob.

If the ranger is stripping aggro off a tank on a regular basis, he is bad. The ranger is, that is. The tank might be bad too but thats nothing that root can't fix. You can't expect rogues to be careful, they all have such huge DPS boners they can't see straight, but rangers are supposed to know whats up with managing aggro.

Rangers, if you are not tanking:

If you are getting hit a lot by the mob being worked on, you are bad. I don't care how much AC you have or if you have more HP than the tank. Use 2h, use jolt, root the damn mob next to tank and step back. If you have a lot of mana, heal yourself occasionally. If you happen to have epics and a slower in group, put the deathcaller aggro machine away. Use clean blades with no procs. Tell the cleric not to patch you until you are at 40% or something. Ask the cleric/shammy/druid for HoTs instead of heals. Ask the NECRO for heals even, promise to pay it back during downtime when he canni's. A lot of time necros are glad to have a chance to do something besides dot and try to keep maboner alive.

If you take a cheal from the cleric, you should feel ashamed.

[khanable]

If the ranger is stripping aggro off a tank on a regular basis, he is bad. The ranger is, that is. The tank might be bad too but thats nothing that root can't fix. You can't expect rogues to be careful, they all have such huge DPS boners they can't see straight, but rangers are supposed to know whats up with managing aggro.

Rangers, if you are not tanking:

If you are getting hit a lot by the mob being worked on, you are bad. I don't care how much AC you have or if you have more HP than the tank. Use 2h, use jolt, root the damn mob next to tank and step back. If you have a lot of mana, heal yourself occasionally. If you happen to have epics and a slower in group, put the deathcaller aggro machine away. Use clean blades with no procs. Tell the cleric not to patch you until you are at 40% or something. Ask the cleric/shammy/druid for HoTs instead of heals. Ask the NECRO for heals even, promise to pay it back during downtime when he canni's. A lot of time necros are glad to have a chance to do something besides dot and try to keep maboner alive.

If you take a cheal from the cleric, you should feel ashamed.

well said

[sox7d]

If the ranger is stripping aggro off a tank on a regular basis, he is bad. The ranger is, that is. The tank might be bad too but thats nothing that root can't fix. You can't expect rogues to be careful, they all have such huge DPS boners they can't see straight, but rangers are supposed to know whats up with managing aggro.

Rangers, if you are not tanking:

If you are getting hit a lot by the mob being worked on, you are bad. I don't care how much AC you have or if you have more HP than the tank. Use 2h, use jolt, root the damn mob next to tank and step back. If you have a lot of mana, heal yourself occasionally. If you happen to have epics and a slower in group, put the deathcaller aggro machine away. Use clean blades with no procs. Tell the cleric not to patch you until you are at 40% or something. Ask the cleric/shammy/druid for HoTs instead of heals. Ask the NECRO for heals even, promise to pay it back during downtime when he canni's. A lot of time necros are glad to have a chance to do something besides dot and try to keep maboner alive.

If you take a cheal from the cleric, you should feel ashamed.

Plate-apologist.

[kaev]

Nice post fadetree.

There're some people in this thread who ought to go look in a mirror and ask themselves how in fuck they can see the words "How is hybrid hate these days?" and read them as "Hey guys, who's the most ignorant ranger basher on this forum?".

[Daywolf]

Tell the cleric not to patch you until you are at 40% or something. I usually say ~33% and only during a fight if it looks like my health will drop to ~0. Once fighting is over, I use bind wound to 50% and then dump my own mana into some healing, others can provide the rest. OMG bind wound why didn't I ever think of that :D No yeah, seems most born-to-be-MT rangers are too uber to carry bandaids.. and it's just the suckage of the healers as to why they cant maintain their full dominance within the party hehe

The better rangers have eyes on the back of their head. Not just protecting the caster line, but yeah too seeing the healers constantly dumping mana on them and know enough to adjust aggro so they don't freeload all the MT and parties heals. You know, those guys medding back there that rangers often forget about (especially at lower levels) when time to loot? :o

add edit: wanna play a good ranger? Don't rant and whine when you die, trying to blame everyone else, be a hard ass protector of the group. When retreat/zoning, don't be first out, use your roots and snares helping others to escape, whatever it takes. Accept that you are expendable, first in, last out, first to go down, happy for it, say thank you. Your MT about to go down? time to take aggro and die if need be. If you are ninja looting, take a step back, turn around, open the trade window to the casters that are medding (we don't want your coppers :P ). Carry bandaids, self heal, don't suck heals. That make you cringe? roll something else or stick to solo/duo's.

[SCB]

For a min/max group there is no reason to invite a ranger. I'll grant you that - they bring nothing to the table that other classes don't do better.


Best min/max group (for non-AoE) would be SK/Pally-Monk-Cleric-Rogue-Rogue-Enchanter. Debatable on Monk if your Enchanter is a boss and you aren't in HS or King in Seb. Most of the time you can just fill that slot with another Rogue, or just leave it empty (I assumed 6-man team for simplicity's sake).

You simply don't need anything else. Only reason to bring a Warrior would be the exp penalty, and you can just grab an SK/Pally one or two levels below you to even out the exp. They'll still tank group content ten thousand percent better than a higher-level Warrior.

If your group isn't the above or an aoe group, you really have no leg to stand on. You can whine all day about live or spout nonsense memes about rangers (or bards, or sks, or...), but the numbers just don't back up any of the crap. Classes are basically interchangeable if they aren't that optimal setup above.

XP can be found with any mix of classes if you aren't a mouthbreathing idiot.

[tanknspank]

If your group isn't the above or an aoe group, you really have no leg to stand on. You can whine all day about live or spout nonsense memes about rangers (or bards, or sks, or...), but the numbers just don't back up any of the crap. Classes are basically interchangeable if they aren't that optimal setup above.
Except the numbers do vary even when your setup isn't that optimal one. You usually have what you have and X spots left to fill with the best choices from what's available. You have tank/heals/CC handled, you're going to prefer the rogue for DPS, not the druid. You have tank/heals/dps and need some CC, you're going to prefer the enchanter not a wizard root CCing.

The situations where a ranger is your first choice for that spot are very narrow. Outdoors tracking puller? Or some combination of needing DPS and harmony/snare/sow/root CC in a single member? Those aren't situations that come up a lot compared to classes that feel `loved`. And being 2nd (3rd/4th/nth) choice contributes a lot to rangers not feeling the love.

[SCB]

Except the numbers do vary even when your setup isn't that optimal one. .

You're either optimal or you aren't. That's the meaning of the word. Point was, most groups in EQ are well beyond suboptimal, and in no way does it ruin anyone's experience.

If you aren't holding out for the perfect setup, or play a class other than those 4(3) above, then even bringing up dislike for a class just makes you look stupid. There is no group content difficult enough to min/max, and if you're trying to get to 60 as fast as possible and aren't buying a bard pl into a proxy aoe spot, you're doing it wrong. You either care or you don't.

You're either here to group or to level as fast as possible.

[sox7d]

I used to think rangers could be pretty beneficial to a group even with the penalty, but after reading through this thread, I think I'll pass on them next time. The whining isn't doing them any favors either.

[tanknspank]

You're either optimal or you aren't.
Or you are optimal within the constraints placed on you (by funds, by your idea of fun, by classes available, camps available, etc)

You're either here to group or to level as fast as possible.
Sure, primary goal is to group. But that doesn't mean you'll fill 6th slot in your sub-optimal group randomly without taking what would best help you.

bringing up dislike for a class just makes you look stupid
Generally, it's not that people dislike rangers. It's just that most other classes have abilities that make them more wanted than rangers.

[sox7d]

Generally, it's not that people dislike rangers. It's just that most other classes have abilities that make them more wanted than rangers.

Generally, it's not that people dislike dogshit. It's just that most other substances have qualities that make them more palatable than dogshit.

[fadetree]

I used to think rangers could be pretty beneficial to a group even with the penalty, but after reading through this thread, I think I'll pass on them next time. The whining isn't doing them any favors either.

Generally, it's not that people dislike dogshit. It's just that most other substances have qualities that make them more palatable than dogshit.

I used to think you might not be an asswipe.

[sox7d]

This thread is pretty much RnF now, if it hasn't been already. I'm done.

[Daywolf]

This thread is pretty much RnF now, if it hasn't been already. I'm done.Sooo... when all else fails, try to flametard a thread to send it to another forum? wtg. They shouldn't move the thread, they should just delete your posts heh.

As for your comments against the ranger class, just absurd. Unless you are talking about yourself not playing one... might be smart move.

[sox7d]

Sooo... when all else fails, try to flametard a thread to send it to another forum? wtg. They shouldn't move the thread, they should just delete your posts heh.

As for your comments against the ranger class, just absurd. Unless you are talking about yourself not playing one... might be smart move.

...

Can we please have a discussion about ALL hybrids without resorting to personal attacks?

If you don't like the points I bring up, provide counter evidence.

[Daywolf]

personal attacks
Still at it, eh? Criticizing your posts == personal attacks. You're a jumble of text? lol
As for smart moves, yes if insisting ranger is somehow tank worthy (as your posts say), yep smart move is just play something to actually tank efficiently if not playing the ranger for what it does best at.

---

My personal reason I first rolled a ranger (started in the original postage stamp client) was I just liked archery and ranger was master of the bow. Too bad SOE never concocted a true archer class, such as an arcane archer. I have fun with my lowbie ranger here though, conquering fay. Takes some determination to get through the hell levels with a ranger.

[SCB]

...

Can we please have a discussion about ALL hybrids without resorting to personal attacks?


Why are you even responding to the guy who says that math is wrong because of anecdotal crap he "remembers" from 15 years ago?

[Daywolf]

Why are you even responding to the guy who says that math is wrong because of anecdotal crap he "remembers" from 15 years ago?
hah that's a good one, totally bypassing actuality. So p99 is actually a hybrid server, nothing like original live? Tactics all different and everything? The only difference between this here now and back then is it's far easier to twink yourself here ...and also true for the tanks and everyone else so it equals out leaving that gap. At least in that you got through hell levels a little faster etc. But no, cheal is still a waste, rangers still suck heal mana like crazy, no matter how you play with numbers. And it's a distortion to say 15 years ago, as if I only forum here and not actually play on p99, and PEQ regularly since early-early beta btw. And if you actually read what you are replying to, he gave up and is trying to push the thread to RnF rather than allowing others to have a discussion here, which is pretty sad.