Autofire/G Series Keyboards/Other Hardware or Software - Breakout Discussion

[Artaenc]

I would just like an official staff stance on this. By the way I greatly appreciate all of the time you guys spend on providing the opportunity for us to play this game for free.

I have some concerns here because this is basically making the game unfair to people that follow rules by the book. Here are some things that I am unsure of and would like clarification. I just want to know if this is something that I should drop and pretend it's not there.

People currently using these things will get a free pass until you can find a way to detect the consistent patterns of using these methods to acquire FTE? I don't know what your plans are but once you are able to create a detector on the client side are you going to collect data for a month or so to mass ban these cheaters?

It would be highly unfair if you didn't ban these guys simply because I have had people wasting their time going for FTE not knowing that they had a fraction of a chance to acquire FTE compared to software/hardware that is being used by people actively seeking a cheating advantage.

Do I tell my guild to forget about trying to get FTE/FFA until then? I think it's time to crack this egg open. I have heard rumors of people getting banned for things they have done two years in the past, I am wondering if this will be an exception.

My two cents on correcting this issue for the future if it's not too much programming is set it up so that the raid boss encounters will randomly intake multiple FTE attempts so that everyone will know that it is fair and RNG based. The other good idea that's been posted already is to not allow trackers to get FTE until someone finds an exploit for it. I'm thinking that it is possible that people pushing for this already have an exploit and ready to deploy it as soon as we switch to that system. The only real positive way of making this fair is allowing the server to control who gets FTE. Yes it removes "skill" but look at the current system where "skill" depended on how well you can google undetectable cheats and the "skill" to create macros. This would also fix the who has the faster computer/ramdrive OC12 internet connection with 20ms ping time issue because if the time for FTE intake window is long enough it doesn't matter who can logon to their character first. I know it's not classic but FTE shout isn't either or having 5 years to figure out which exploits/methods can be used on this expansion.

Thoughts? Let's discuss.

[bktroost]

It would be highly unfair if you didn't ban these guys simply because I have had people wasting their time going for FTE not knowing that they had a fraction of a chance to acquire FTE compared to software/hardware that is being used by people actively seeking a cheating advantage.

Do I tell my guild to forget about trying to get FTE/FFA until then?

I have gathered forces and done FFA raids with AG more times than I can recall and we have never tagged a mob when in competition with known Autofire using guilds. Using pets, rangers, monks spamming javs, macros to try and target a mob and then a command to attack it and it doesn't matter if there is 1 person with autofire. That's all it takes. So, unless its a full repop, I don't focus on FFA for my guild anymore. Its taxing, a huge waste of resources and brings morale waaaay down. Who wants to go play a game they can't win because the other person is cheating.

At least in Hold'em you can't see the guy dealing under the deck, here you have to sit and watch your opponent cheat for 16 hours. /sigh I've actually seen a tagger I was in communication with /afk just to taunt me. It's a toxic situation.

[Argh]

TMO has proposed some rule changes (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152630) that will remove the advantage given from autofiring programs/keyboards.

It is much more likely that we can change/have an effect on this problem through negotiations on these proposed rules, rather than expect GMs to somehow police this.

[Erati]

TMO has proposed some rule changes (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152630) that will remove the advantage given from autofiring programs/keyboards.

It is much more likely that we can change/have an effect on this problem through negotiations on these proposed rules, rather than expect GMs to somehow police this.

those rules were discussed on our officer forums and the problem is they are solving 1 thing but then adding more potential for exploitative behavior

IP exemptions are something that are much more widely abused by the top tier guilds and if we used TMO's suggested rule change, you would see IP exemptions become the new 'form' of Autofire

If their ruleset was altered so that taggers had to be parked further away from spawn points rather than be parked ready to login/tag then we might be getting somewhere

Along with the randomizing of the spawn points then we would have a much more appetizing raid scene.

Simply having your tagger parked at the widely known single spawn location while placing priority of that account being IP exempt, TMO's ruleset does not give the field a fair shake ( much like people currently using Autofire for FTE does not give people a fair shake). I am not stating that TMO would be the only guild to do this mind you, just giving an example of how to exploit their proposed ruleset.


I completely understand that my example of why their ruleset ( if left unaltered ) would not be the norm, and occur every single time....similar to Autofire not being used to gain FTE every single time. However, when deciding on rule changes one must consider all sides including the most extreme cases.

The solution should be something that does not give advantage to use of 3rd party programs and IP exemptions.

Randomize the spawns, trackers cant tag, designate official camp out spots.

Bard-quest? maybe.....

But it would still resemble a 'race'...

[Artaenc]

TMO has proposed some rule changes (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152630) that will remove the advantage given from autofiring programs/keyboards.

It is much more likely that we can change/have an effect on this problem through negotiations on these proposed rules, rather than expect GMs to somehow police this.

What's to stop any guild from running to VS with autofire on and getting the FTE anyway while running slightly behind the guy that's legitimately manually trying to get FTE. Just because we know about these exploits does not mean we know about all of them. We can't keep changing things around to move from one idea to another to see which one works while the cheaters are one step ahead of the game because they would already have a way around it before we change the methods to the newly proposed one. A server side mechanic would be less susceptible to exploits. Did we really want things to be fair or are we just kidding?

[Ella`Ella]

What's to stop any guild from running to VS with autofire on and getting the FTE anyway while running slightly behind the guy that's legitimately manually trying to get FTE. Just because we know about these exploits does not mean we know about all of them. We can't keep changing things around to move from one idea to another to see which one works while the cheaters are one step ahead of the game because they would already have a way around it before we change the methods to the newly proposed one. A server side mechanic would be less susceptible to exploits. Did we really want things to be fair or are we just kidding?

It's really starting to sound like you're advocating that everyone just use autofire...

[Argh]

Sure server-side implementations would solve a lot of things, but devs priorities are with developing Velious and not with fixing issues in the raid scene.

As participants in the raid scene we're tasked with coming up with solutions to any of the problems we may encounter. These solutions should be things that we can control (rule changes, player agreements, etc.)

We have been given some amount of courtesy with GMs even agreeing to enforce player agreements, so all of our efforts should be put toward coming up with agreements or proposing rule changes that can be easily policed and enforced.

[Artaenc]

It's really starting to sound like you're advocating that everyone just use autofire...

If you curtail my wall of text yes, that's exactly what I'm saying and make it server wide acceptable. No more propositions with smoking mirrors that would alleviate the pressure of shamans having to run to VS room to buff the cleric+warrior FTE team armed with soulfires risking VS to pop at the wrong time.

[Ambrotos]

Stop trying to regulate something players and staff can't control. It was part of classic eq and not a 3rd party program that injects into the client. It will just set everything up for failure and more finger pointing.

Adjust the rules of trackers/who is allowed to engage. No idea why people need two trackers. Someone fell asleep? Too bad, guess the guild needs to ensure their trackers are paying attention. Make it down to one tracker. Make it so they aren't allowed to engage. Thus it will force people to race to get to the mob and pull it first.

Aka a race to see who can get there first with a force and pull it. Stop stretching to make new rules that no one can enforce. Tweak the ones that are enforceable that will remove the variable that everyone accuses everyone of doing, even though ALL guilds are doing it.

[-Catherin-]

Stop trying to regulate something players and staff can't control. It was part of classic eq and not a 3rd party program that injects into the client. It will just set everything up for failure and more finger pointing.

Adjust the rules of trackers/who is allowed to engage. No idea why people need two trackers. Someone fell asleep? Too bad, guess the guild needs to ensure their trackers are paying attention. Make it down to one tracker. Make it so they aren't allowed to engage. Thus it will force people to race to get to the mob and pull it first.

Aka a race to see who can get there first with a force and pull it. Stop stretching to make new rules that no one can enforce. Tweak the ones that are enforceable that will remove the variable that everyone accuses everyone of doing, even though ALL guilds are doing it.

^

[Sirken]

we are actually working on something that should curve the use and effectiveness of autofire. as soon as im given the green light, expect some changes.

gonna lock this thread until then so we can keep a focused discussion in the proper thread.

<3
Sirks