hivemind
06-14-2014, 11:40 AM
First thread was locked by Derubael, a similar attempt to just sweep this under the rug as Sirken resolving my petition after not answering any of my questions. The intent of this thread was primarily to inform and entertain people. Not sure why staff are commenting/locking thread when they couldn't adequately comment in my petition in the petition forums (something more than an eight word response after 9 days).
Furthermore, Sirken never claimed to "see me training or harassing players," again... his only eight words on the matter were:
Originally Posted by Sirken View Post
you were harassing and training players in game."
He did not tell me specifically what instances those were, nor did he tell me anything else. Those are literally the only words he posted in my thread before resolving it. Also, if he actually saw me training why did I not receive an in-game tell or even a warning before a permaban??? Also, there is nothing in RED PNP about "harassing players", as "harassment" is defined:
Originally Posted by Derubael (BLUE PNP) View Post
7. You may not harass others.
Harassment is defined as specifically targeting another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them. As harassment can take many forms, the P99CSR involved will make a determination as to whether or not a "reasonable person" would feel harassed and act accordingly.
Hey everyone! I recently got banned (for the first time on any server/game ever) and this whole process has been a learning experience for me, and thought I might share what I have learned with all of you. My hope is that this post will entertain, inform, and/or give you plenty of opportunity to point and laugh at me for being banned.
Here is the first post of the thread I made in the petition forums, which is standard protocol if you happen to find yourself suspended or banned:
Originally Posted by hivemind View Post
Hello Staff,
I just tried logging in today, Wednesday June 04, 8:00pm PST, and I got the error "This account is currently banned. Please contact customer service for more information." My account name is "****" and my main character on the account is Hivemind.
I am writing this petition for two primary reasons. First and foremost, because the error I received told me to contact customer service for more information (and this is my best guess as to where I should do that). Secondly, I have no idea what offense I could have made to warrant a ban or suspension. I remember reading somewhere that GMs will try to contact the player in game when a ban or suspension is being issued, but a lot of times players are not online when that happens. I assume that was the case here, but I would absolutely like to hear in as much detail as possible, why I was banned and the intended duration of this ban.
I imagine that the staff only bans for very serious reasons, but that being said, I am very surprised to have been banned since I go out of my way to follow the rules very closely on this server. Hopefully I can be informed precisely of my wrongdoing(s), to which I might have an opportunity to give my side of what happened (since I am somewhat certain you have not heard my perspective at this point).
I appreciate your time and dedication to this server.
-hivemind
I had no response from GMs for the next 5 days, until Derubael commented in my thread:
Originally Posted by Derubael View Post
Will point this out to Sirken. He has been busy the last week but will be back next week. The CSR log says you were banned for repeated training.
Having already waited for 5 days with zero response, I was happy for a member of the staff to finally comment in my thread. While Derubael was vague in that he didn't go into specific details why I was banned, he at least told me the CSR logs indicated the offense of "repeated training" as well as providing some context as to why Sirken might not have had a chance to see or post in my thread (busy and/or vacation). This accusation of "repeated training" was a bit perplexing as 1) I do not intentionally train players, and 2) Most of my PVP had been conducted in HHK the previous days. Was I being accused of "training" goblins? You mean charm song??? Or was I accused of "training" guards? You mean faction mechanics (that did not even work in my favor the majority of the time--I had lower faction than most players with HHK guards thus could not attack people in the vicinity of them without being zerged by guards). Maybe they were talking about another zone, with other mobs, I have no idea. I was not given specific details by Derubael, but that's alright because he had notified Sirken and Sirken would be able to give me the answers to some of my questions.
I waited an additional 4 days until Sirken was able to respond. His response to my thread was this:
Originally Posted by Sirken View Post
you were harassing and training players in game.
In addition to replying in my thread (full quote above), he resolved my petition. Huh, that is strange. "Harassing and training players in game" -- so I was harassing them too? I still had no idea of the specifics... what zone, what players, what mobs I was "training." I still had no idea what sort of evidence was even submitted to support this, and still no opportunity to tell my side of the story because I was still uninformed what I was actually banned for AND my petition was resolved. I no longer had an active petition. How on earth do you expect me to avoid getting banned a second time when I don't even know why I was banned in the first place? I tried logging into the game, seeing as my petition was now resolved, and realized I was still banned. Confused, I reached out to a staff member via PM:
Originally Posted by hivemind
Hi Eunomia,
First I'd like to apologize outright for contacting you (or any staff) via PM. Under basically any other circumstances I would not do this--I know that staff is VERY busy with managing every aspect of project99, both the red and blue servers. That being said, I assure you I have exhausted all other measures and am desperate for an opportunity to talk with a staff member.
I was banned about 9 days ago (on red99), and made a petition in the forums as soon as I found out. Then I waited for around 9 days for Sirken to respond, and inform me about things such as:
1) length of ban
2) specific reasons for being banned
3) evidence that supported the reasons I was being banned
4) some other things
Unfortunately, Sirken responded to my thread today and resolved my petition. The entirety of his response to me was:
"you were harassing and training players in game."
As you might be able to see, he didn't address any of the questions I asked with his eight word response, and simply resolved my petition. I still am completely unclear as to why I was banned, and Sirken's "attempt" at a dialogue here has caused me to lose whatever little faith I had remaining. This is the first time I have EVER been banned or even suspended in any game, and I have been trying to be patient while figuring this whole situation out... but I feel like I'm at the end of a rope here.
I am really hoping to get more input from staff, or guidance from staff, about how I can actually try to **RESOLVE** this incident. Instead of just having my petition resolved without learning anything about the incident I was banned for, the duration of ban, and so on. Really appreciate your time Eunomia.
-hivemind
S/he responded very quickly and informed me of the following:
Originally Posted by Eunomia
Hello Hivemind,
I'm am just a guide, so don't have the same access a GM does. It does not appear your ban will be lifted. You are welcome to start another account / character on the server. After a period of time, you might petition again and use your new character as an example of your ability to play nicely. From my viewing experience, it would not behoove you to continue a pursuit of this account at this time.
Good Luck!
This was the first time I learned about the duration of my ban: seemingly permanent. Despite me explicitly asking Sirken this question, as well as a number of other questions I consider relevant to my ban, he answered none of this. I only became privy to this information after begging a guide to help bring some clarity to my situation.
So now I do know more about my ban, at least it's length. I still have not been told specifically why I was banned. IE in what ways did I "train" which players? In what ways did I "harass" which players? I looked up both training and harassment in the PNP. There are two references to training in the PNP (I am referring to the blue and red PNP, not just red PNP). Both references talk about "training" in regard to causing experience loss--intentional training is not allowable, but the staff understands sometimes it is unavoidable. Not only do I not intentionally train, I cannot even remember someone dying to an unintentional train of mine--and the only reference to training is in regard to EXP loss. Again, if I actually had some idea of what mobs I had been accused of training on which players I would almost certainly have a better idea of what they were talking about. It's easy for someone to think I am training goblins on them when I am in fact charming them and /pet attacking. Similarly, guard agro... does that count as "training"? I thought those were intended faction mechanics. References to "harassment" in the PNP are even more vague. Harassment is not even covered in the red99 PNP, but here is the description from the BLUE PNP:
Originally Posted by Derubael View Post
7. You may not harass others.
Harassment is defined as specifically targeting another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them. As harassment can take many forms, the P99CSR involved will make a determination as to whether or not a "reasonable person" would feel harassed and act accordingly."
I imagine "harassment" is not defined for red99 because in PVP you typically "specifically target another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them." That seems like textbook harassment. So if PVP is harassment, then I am guilty as charged, but as I stated before "harassment" is not even defined in the red PNP and probably for obvious reasons.
So yeah, I understand that I probably upset some people (because a lot of people get upset when they die in PVP--still not sure why since there are basically zero consequences AND "LNS" exists). And I understand that when people get upset, they can petition and say nasty things. I understand and expect that. What I do not understand and what I did not expect was for the staff to be so quick to ban and so hesitant to offer any sort of explanation behind the ban, nor allow for me a chance to tell my side of the story (which is impossible to do when I am not told why I am banned and then my petition is resolved).
tl,dr: pras pvp, being banned was worth it
Note: All quotes are in full, not clipped. Also, this thread contains 100% of the staff communication with me in regard to my ban. Bold/color added for this post only.
Furthermore, Sirken never claimed to "see me training or harassing players," again... his only eight words on the matter were:
Originally Posted by Sirken View Post
you were harassing and training players in game."
He did not tell me specifically what instances those were, nor did he tell me anything else. Those are literally the only words he posted in my thread before resolving it. Also, if he actually saw me training why did I not receive an in-game tell or even a warning before a permaban??? Also, there is nothing in RED PNP about "harassing players", as "harassment" is defined:
Originally Posted by Derubael (BLUE PNP) View Post
7. You may not harass others.
Harassment is defined as specifically targeting another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them. As harassment can take many forms, the P99CSR involved will make a determination as to whether or not a "reasonable person" would feel harassed and act accordingly.
Hey everyone! I recently got banned (for the first time on any server/game ever) and this whole process has been a learning experience for me, and thought I might share what I have learned with all of you. My hope is that this post will entertain, inform, and/or give you plenty of opportunity to point and laugh at me for being banned.
Here is the first post of the thread I made in the petition forums, which is standard protocol if you happen to find yourself suspended or banned:
Originally Posted by hivemind View Post
Hello Staff,
I just tried logging in today, Wednesday June 04, 8:00pm PST, and I got the error "This account is currently banned. Please contact customer service for more information." My account name is "****" and my main character on the account is Hivemind.
I am writing this petition for two primary reasons. First and foremost, because the error I received told me to contact customer service for more information (and this is my best guess as to where I should do that). Secondly, I have no idea what offense I could have made to warrant a ban or suspension. I remember reading somewhere that GMs will try to contact the player in game when a ban or suspension is being issued, but a lot of times players are not online when that happens. I assume that was the case here, but I would absolutely like to hear in as much detail as possible, why I was banned and the intended duration of this ban.
I imagine that the staff only bans for very serious reasons, but that being said, I am very surprised to have been banned since I go out of my way to follow the rules very closely on this server. Hopefully I can be informed precisely of my wrongdoing(s), to which I might have an opportunity to give my side of what happened (since I am somewhat certain you have not heard my perspective at this point).
I appreciate your time and dedication to this server.
-hivemind
I had no response from GMs for the next 5 days, until Derubael commented in my thread:
Originally Posted by Derubael View Post
Will point this out to Sirken. He has been busy the last week but will be back next week. The CSR log says you were banned for repeated training.
Having already waited for 5 days with zero response, I was happy for a member of the staff to finally comment in my thread. While Derubael was vague in that he didn't go into specific details why I was banned, he at least told me the CSR logs indicated the offense of "repeated training" as well as providing some context as to why Sirken might not have had a chance to see or post in my thread (busy and/or vacation). This accusation of "repeated training" was a bit perplexing as 1) I do not intentionally train players, and 2) Most of my PVP had been conducted in HHK the previous days. Was I being accused of "training" goblins? You mean charm song??? Or was I accused of "training" guards? You mean faction mechanics (that did not even work in my favor the majority of the time--I had lower faction than most players with HHK guards thus could not attack people in the vicinity of them without being zerged by guards). Maybe they were talking about another zone, with other mobs, I have no idea. I was not given specific details by Derubael, but that's alright because he had notified Sirken and Sirken would be able to give me the answers to some of my questions.
I waited an additional 4 days until Sirken was able to respond. His response to my thread was this:
Originally Posted by Sirken View Post
you were harassing and training players in game.
In addition to replying in my thread (full quote above), he resolved my petition. Huh, that is strange. "Harassing and training players in game" -- so I was harassing them too? I still had no idea of the specifics... what zone, what players, what mobs I was "training." I still had no idea what sort of evidence was even submitted to support this, and still no opportunity to tell my side of the story because I was still uninformed what I was actually banned for AND my petition was resolved. I no longer had an active petition. How on earth do you expect me to avoid getting banned a second time when I don't even know why I was banned in the first place? I tried logging into the game, seeing as my petition was now resolved, and realized I was still banned. Confused, I reached out to a staff member via PM:
Originally Posted by hivemind
Hi Eunomia,
First I'd like to apologize outright for contacting you (or any staff) via PM. Under basically any other circumstances I would not do this--I know that staff is VERY busy with managing every aspect of project99, both the red and blue servers. That being said, I assure you I have exhausted all other measures and am desperate for an opportunity to talk with a staff member.
I was banned about 9 days ago (on red99), and made a petition in the forums as soon as I found out. Then I waited for around 9 days for Sirken to respond, and inform me about things such as:
1) length of ban
2) specific reasons for being banned
3) evidence that supported the reasons I was being banned
4) some other things
Unfortunately, Sirken responded to my thread today and resolved my petition. The entirety of his response to me was:
"you were harassing and training players in game."
As you might be able to see, he didn't address any of the questions I asked with his eight word response, and simply resolved my petition. I still am completely unclear as to why I was banned, and Sirken's "attempt" at a dialogue here has caused me to lose whatever little faith I had remaining. This is the first time I have EVER been banned or even suspended in any game, and I have been trying to be patient while figuring this whole situation out... but I feel like I'm at the end of a rope here.
I am really hoping to get more input from staff, or guidance from staff, about how I can actually try to **RESOLVE** this incident. Instead of just having my petition resolved without learning anything about the incident I was banned for, the duration of ban, and so on. Really appreciate your time Eunomia.
-hivemind
S/he responded very quickly and informed me of the following:
Originally Posted by Eunomia
Hello Hivemind,
I'm am just a guide, so don't have the same access a GM does. It does not appear your ban will be lifted. You are welcome to start another account / character on the server. After a period of time, you might petition again and use your new character as an example of your ability to play nicely. From my viewing experience, it would not behoove you to continue a pursuit of this account at this time.
Good Luck!
This was the first time I learned about the duration of my ban: seemingly permanent. Despite me explicitly asking Sirken this question, as well as a number of other questions I consider relevant to my ban, he answered none of this. I only became privy to this information after begging a guide to help bring some clarity to my situation.
So now I do know more about my ban, at least it's length. I still have not been told specifically why I was banned. IE in what ways did I "train" which players? In what ways did I "harass" which players? I looked up both training and harassment in the PNP. There are two references to training in the PNP (I am referring to the blue and red PNP, not just red PNP). Both references talk about "training" in regard to causing experience loss--intentional training is not allowable, but the staff understands sometimes it is unavoidable. Not only do I not intentionally train, I cannot even remember someone dying to an unintentional train of mine--and the only reference to training is in regard to EXP loss. Again, if I actually had some idea of what mobs I had been accused of training on which players I would almost certainly have a better idea of what they were talking about. It's easy for someone to think I am training goblins on them when I am in fact charming them and /pet attacking. Similarly, guard agro... does that count as "training"? I thought those were intended faction mechanics. References to "harassment" in the PNP are even more vague. Harassment is not even covered in the red99 PNP, but here is the description from the BLUE PNP:
Originally Posted by Derubael View Post
7. You may not harass others.
Harassment is defined as specifically targeting another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them. As harassment can take many forms, the P99CSR involved will make a determination as to whether or not a "reasonable person" would feel harassed and act accordingly."
I imagine "harassment" is not defined for red99 because in PVP you typically "specifically target another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them." That seems like textbook harassment. So if PVP is harassment, then I am guilty as charged, but as I stated before "harassment" is not even defined in the red PNP and probably for obvious reasons.
So yeah, I understand that I probably upset some people (because a lot of people get upset when they die in PVP--still not sure why since there are basically zero consequences AND "LNS" exists). And I understand that when people get upset, they can petition and say nasty things. I understand and expect that. What I do not understand and what I did not expect was for the staff to be so quick to ban and so hesitant to offer any sort of explanation behind the ban, nor allow for me a chance to tell my side of the story (which is impossible to do when I am not told why I am banned and then my petition is resolved).
tl,dr: pras pvp, being banned was worth it
Note: All quotes are in full, not clipped. Also, this thread contains 100% of the staff communication with me in regard to my ban. Bold/color added for this post only.