Petition to Rogean: TMO Raid Behavior

[arsenalpow]

According to server policy and server raid rules, the Play Nice Policy is in effect. We can request the staff to work it out if we want, but in the end the Play Nice Policy is in effect as instructed by Rogean and as enforced by his staff.

Under the Server Wide Play Nice Policy, it states:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132299

8. You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area.
-Causing intentional experience loss to other players (deliberately impeding fleeing players by blocking their escape route, intentionally training NPCs on other players, etc.).(Underlined emphasis is mine)

Additionally, under the Raid Play Nice Policy it states:

"Intentional training will be severely disciplined"

Here is a crystal clear fraps of the situation BDA is currently bringing to the table. BDA was in the Plane of Fear (a raid zone) and was killing mobs that a force of TMO wanted, a force that included the co-leader of TMO Unbrella. Skip forward to 4 minutes and keep an eye on Dinacarl. He’s the TMO monk on the right side of the screen in the BDA camp. At the end of the fraps you can clearly see Unbrella saying in ooc that this will make for good RnF.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1CRVZBZuo4

Also listed is: "Guilds are encouraged to work out disputes among themselves before involving the staff."

This was attempted by trying to talk to first Unbrella and then Mazam. Unbrella’s initial offer to BDA was to have Dinacarl pull a fear raid for us. My rebuttal was to have TMO take two months off from raiding. Both offers were equally ridiculous, but in the end BDA offered a fair resolution of a two week full raid suspension for TMO which has been the usual amount of raid interference. Mazam and Unbrella both feel that no guild suspension is warranted and that Dinacarl acted of his own volition. BDA disagrees based on the fact that the Co-Leader of TMO was present and proceeded to mock BDA instantly after the train hit and made no effort to resolve the issue. Cucumbers had to reach out personally and engage Unbrella as he made no effort to correct the “accidental” train (his words.)

The Unbrella conversation:
http://i.imgur.com/Rd5mWbZ.png
http://i.imgur.com/HCP6MYd.png
http://i.imgur.com/u8wixgE.png

TMO had 5 players and Genocidal Tendencies had another 18, combined they did not have the proper class makeup or levels to AE the zone. There was no misunderstanding and the act as you can see by fraps was quite deliberate. Also, being misrepresented was TMO saying they were clearing the zone ahead of us. Some TMO, BDA, and GT were all mustering in Feerott, GT and TMO ran in and BDA followed seconds later. TMO/GT broke on top of the Fear portal and BDA moved to the north wall. There are additional ventrilo conversations with Unbrella but I see no need to post those as the screenshots should be sufficient.

The initial petition was posted on Monday night and responded to by Sirken on Tuesday. To quote Sirken “I got as far as Chest saying two months. Try to work it out like reasonable human beings.”

We have gone through the petition forum and that petition has been marked resolved. We have attempted to work it out like reasonable human beings with Unbrella/Mazam, and have not been successful. We are only asking for TMO to be punished for a blatant and clear violation of the server and raid rules. We want the staff to follow the rules they have posted and deal with the situation.

[quido]

Usually people put petitions in the petition forum.

[arsenalpow]

Usually people put petitions in the petition forum.
The petition was already marked resolved and Rogean doesn't usually read the petition forum. Thank you for the tip though Jeremy.

[quido]

Did you try addressing it to Rogean in the subject?

[Ella`Ella]

8. You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area.

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes, but is not limited to::

-Monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area.

Why was BDA in violation of the server Play-nice-Policy by occupying Plane of Fear while it was currently being raided by Genocidal Tendencies?

[bktroost]

I'm posting on behalf of Waryah, Leader of Genocidal Tendencies:

"@ Chest: GT was just there for our first PoF raid and had no intentions of doing AOE groups (never mentioned to us, and actually had no idea you could do that in PoF). We were just there to pull mobs one by one like newbs and have a fun time. "

[lilyanna]

8. You may not disrupt the normal playability of a zone or area.

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes, but is not limited to::

-Monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area.

Why was BDA in violation of the server Play-nice-Policy by occupying Plane of Fear while it was currently being raided by Genocidal Tendencies?

As I am sure you are well aware by now Unbrella, and I can categorically state having played on this server for a long time now, there have been many occasions where more than one guild has occupied Fear at a time. Are you trying to use this as a basis to suggest that the clear and blatant training (as evidenced by the fraps) is warranted by your TMO monk or are you trying to detract from the main issue in question?

[Pint]

Wow @ that fraps, no ruling was made after server staff watched that?

[Splorf22]

That has to be one of the most blatant trains ever recorded on fraps.

I wish I didn't have to watch 5 minutes of Sesserdrix alternately memorizing his AEs and Twitches though.

[Ella`Ella]

We saw the fraps and agree that the behavior here was unacceptable. Where our understanding of the situation begins to diverge is over whether this was a raid-related scenario or not. This situation mirrors if someone were to disrupt a Chardok AoE pull. If this is a raid zone because of raid targets spawning, then Dreadlands, Skyfire, Karnor's Castle, Timorous Deep, SolB, Permafrost, Sebilis, Plane of Hate and Plane of Sky (which a raid suspended guild recently killed 3 raid targets in) should all be considered raid zones and any training warrant guild suspensions.

This issue is between a single player of the community and another group of players. The player has been removed from TMO for his actions and the guild has dealt with it internally. Leadership is involved to the extent of coming to a reasonable resolution on how to punish the player. Despite the presence of leadership, you cannot A) assume that a directive was given for this player to act in this manner and B) as any guild knows, you cannot always account for the unpredictable behavior of all members at all times, whether you are present or not.

BDA was offered to have the offending member pull hate and fear for a week for them, which would have been both embarrassing and punishment enough for Dinacarl - BDA rejected that proposal. TMO further extends the offer to voluntarily suspend themselves from Plane of Fear clears (with the exception of Draco and CT, as these mobs weren't even in window during this incident).

Also, there is a mutual fault here that precedes the matter with BDA entering a plane that is currently occupied and laying claim (monopolizing) the entire zone. This continued even after the leader of BDA, Chest, was informed that all we were after were monkey's and fetids to which he dismissed our request and proceeded to AoE those targets along with the rest of the zone. I do not support the motion that one foul deed deserves another, but I do think that appropriate weight be given to this matter as well; not for the sake of retribution, as we really have/had no intention of pursuing that as a matter, but if for any reason to make situations like this fewer and further between.

[Komodon]

We have attempted to work it out like reasonable human beings with Unbrella/Mazam, and have not been successful. We are only asking for TMO to be punished for a blatant and clear violation of the server and raid rules. We want the staff to follow the rules they have posted and deal with the situation.

This is the growing concern i have with the "work it out between yourselves" approach. If every "reasonable" attempt to work things out starts and ends with the desire to go fishing for a raid suspension, of course nothing deemed successful is going to come out of it. I mean for all the reasonable talk that did occur between us tonight, i honestly walked away questioning whether you were even genuinely upset that Dinacarl trained you, or more so content with the perceived possibility that you could simply use this as a means to your own individual need to spill TMO's blood as a whole.

Anyway and to essentially echo our conversation tonight, TMO in no way condones Dinacarl's actions. Heck, I initiated the attempt to open up a line of communication between us (months ago) as a show of good faith towards that to begin with. I gave every reassurance possible that this type of behavior wouldn't be permitted here, removed the stated offender from the guild, and even extended my own joint support with BDA in any attempt seeking GM punishment on Dinacarl (or any future offender) for his actions.

If that isn't "good enough" for you, or what one should be reasonably looking to accomplish in the attempt to find a resolution regarding a non-raid incident (minus the rule lawyering that wants to paint what amounts to an exp group tagging along with 18 GT in Fear as TMO acting out as a raid entity, of course)...then yeah, i guess that all was the waste of time *you* claimed it to be.

I'm all for owning up to individual accountability, as i believe we've proven on numerous occasions over the past months. If you want to talk on those terms the door is always open. If you are just looking to grind an old axe and/or play the R&F game, this really shouldn't be the place for it though imo.

[Komodon]

As I am sure you are well aware by now Unbrella, and I can categorically state having played on this server for a long time now, there have been many occasions where more than one guild has occupied Fear at a time. Are you trying to use this as a basis to suggest that the clear and blatant training (as evidenced by the fraps) is warranted by your TMO monk or are you trying to detract from the main issue in question?

I don't believe anybody here is suggesting that what Dinacarl did can/should be viewed as warranted.

On a side note, it's good to see an IB rep up in here. There's a thread a couple spots down titled "Proposed Raid Rule Adjustments/Changes", specifically addressing the issue of spam click tracking and concern over autofire use.

Feel free to chime in. Likely would be helpful to everybody hearing IB's input and current stance on the matter :)

[Derubael]

but in the end BDA offered a fair resolution of a two week full raid suspension for TMO which has been the usual amount of raid interference.

If this is the only offer you made, you need to go back to TMO and try to be more reasonable. This is absolutely not BDA attempting to work this out or come to a fair agreement - it's looking for a pound of flesh to take with you. Since there wasn't a raid mob involved, you'll have to find some other concession that works for both of you. If the TMO group was separate from the GT group, it's questionable as to whether or not this is even considered a 'raid dispute', but this is how we'd like all disputes to be resolved anyway.

Back to the negotiation table, fellas.

[arsenalpow]

If this is the only offer you made, you need to go back to TMO and try to be more reasonable. This is absolutely not BDA attempting to work this out or come to a fair agreement - it's looking for a pound of flesh to take with you. Since there wasn't a raid mob involved, you'll have to find some other concession that works for both of you. If the TMO group was separate from the GT group, it's questionable as to whether or not this is even considered a 'raid dispute', but this is how we'd like all disputes to be resolved anyway.

Back to the negotiation table, fellas.

We've jumped through that hoop multiple times. TMO and BDA are too far apart on the issue.

[Anichek]

If this is the only offer you made, you need to go back to TMO and try to be more reasonable. This is absolutely not BDA attempting to work this out or come to a fair agreement - it's looking for a pound of flesh to take with you. Since there wasn't a raid mob involved, you'll have to find some other concession that works for both of you. If the TMO group was separate from the GT group, it's questionable as to whether or not this is even considered a 'raid dispute', but this is how we'd like all disputes to be resolved anyway.

Back to the negotiation table, fellas.

Have you spoken to Mazam before making the assumption that it's a "pound of flesh" situation? Maz was in our vent last night for the better part of an hour and we had cordial conversation, but both Maz and the BDA crew that were in there (Chest, Anthrax, Cucumbers, Troubledour, myself - sorry if I left any other officers out) agreed that we can't come to a resolution because we differ in opinion on the severity of the training. Raid dispute vs. individual asshattery is the center of that disagreement.

Individual asshattery, historically, has been policed by server staff and done so typically swiftly and sternly (individual suspensions, bans, etc). Raid disputes are when guild leadership is told to first try to reach a resolution, and to try hard, before escalating.

That's happened. Unfortunately, an agreement has not been made. I can understand server staff requesting that we continue to go to the table with each other - but please stop painting it like it's a one way street where BDA is off the handle and forcing the resolution to never come to fruition. Both Mazam and Chest AGREE that they differ in opinion on the severity of the issue, and therein cannot reach a resolution.

I understand your distaste (both Sirken and Derubael) for Chest individually, but if you'd offer him (and BDA) even 1/2 the respect in public that you do other guild leadership (and stop discounting his statements just because he is who he is) perhaps that would help resolutions be less difficult to solve.

[lilyanna]

If this is the only offer you made, you need to go back to TMO and try to be more reasonable. This is absolutely not BDA attempting to work this out or come to a fair agreement - it's looking for a pound of flesh to take with you. Since there wasn't a raid mob involved, you'll have to find some other concession that works for both of you. If the TMO group was separate from the GT group, it's questionable as to whether or not this is even considered a 'raid dispute', but this is how we'd like all disputes to be resolved anyway.

Back to the negotiation table, fellas.

If disputes involving armor clears aren't considered raid disputes, why are raid suspensions also prohibitions on doing armor clears?

[Ella`Ella]

If disputes involving armor clears aren't considered raid disputes, why are raid suspensions also prohibitions on doing armor clears?

What would you consider killing Overseer of Air?

[lilyanna]

What would you consider killing Overseer of Air?

As you have already been informed on another thread Sirken himself said this was available to raid whilst on suspension. Completely different to the question I raised but please try to divert some more, we can all see you are good at that ;)

[Derubael]

If disputes involving armor clears aren't considered raid disputes, why are raid suspensions also prohibitions on doing armor clears?

We don't allow Ragefire kills and fear/hate clears because when guilds are on suspension they tend to spend and focus all of their time on these 3 areas and it causes issues that we'd prefer to avoid.

Fear/Hate trash clears and Ragefire kills aren't usually "Raid Encounters" but sometimes can be considered as such; it all depends on the circumstances surrounding the dispute.

[arsenalpow]

We don't allow Ragefire kills and fear/hate clears because when guilds are on suspension they tend to spend and focus all of their time on these 3 areas and it causes issues that we'd prefer to avoid.

Fear/Hate trash clears and Ragefire kills aren't usually "Raid Encounters" but sometimes can be considered as such; it all depends on the circumstances surrounding the dispute.

From your own raid rule FAQ is this raid forum as posted by you:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147618

Copied and updated from the original Raid FAQ. Old FAQ and related posts have been deleted so there is no confusion.

Q: What is considered a "raid" on Project 1999?
A: A raid is any group of players looking to engage a raid target OR any force consisting of more than one group united in a common goal. This means that three people can be considered a raid if they intend to kill Dracoliche, or 20 people clearing fear trash. Most epic NPC's are not strictly considered "raid" mobs. The exception to this is Ragefire, which is considered a 'raid target' for the purposes of qualifying a group as a raid only. For all other intents and purposes, Ragefire is treated like an Epic NPC (IE, camp/poopsock rules do not apply). Please keep in mind that because of the need to clear to a raid target as per our new raid policy, trains enacted on players in the way of your raid are considered raid disputes and action could be taken against your guild as a whole, even though the victims are not part of a raid. It is in your best interest to be very careful when racing for a target.

I underlined the relevant material. Additionally, there's a clause in there saying that once the parties can't agree on a solution then staff will step in, and specifically this was something we wanted Rogean to look it. I believe there are additional examples of staff just moving petitions to resolved that Hokushin was willing to post to establish the pattern.

[Derubael]

A: A raid is any group of players looking to engage a raid target OR any force consisting of more than one group united in a common goal. This means that three people can be considered a raid if they intend to kill Dracoliche, or 20 people clearing fear trash. Most epic NPC's are not strictly considered "raid" mobs. The exception to this is Ragefire, which is considered a 'raid target' for the purposes of qualifying a group as a raid only. For all other intents and purposes, Ragefire is treated like an Epic NPC (IE, camp/poopsock rules do not apply). Please keep in mind that because of the need to clear to a raid target as per our new raid policy, trains enacted on players in the way of your raid are considered raid disputes and action could be taken against your guild as a whole, even though the victims are not part of a raid. It is in your best interest to be very careful when racing for a target.

We don't allow Ragefire kills and fear/hate clears because when guilds are on suspension they tend to spend and focus all of their time on these 3 areas and it causes issues that we'd prefer to avoid.

Fear/Hate trash clears and Ragefire kills aren't usually "Raid Encounters" but sometimes can be considered as such; it all depends on the circumstances surrounding the dispute.

I underlined, bolded, and italicized the relevant sections. Situations are evaluated as they come in at our discretion. In this particular case, while the BDA force would be considered a raid, the TMO force is probably not.


Additionally, there's a clause in there saying that once the parties can't agree on a solution then staff will step in, and specifically this was something we wanted Rogean to look it. I believe there are additional examples of staff just moving petitions to resolved that Hokushin was willing to post to establish the pattern.

Until we hear from management that this is to be handled differently, we're going to treat your dispute like everyone else's, and until you all hear differently, you're going to follow the staff's instructions regarding your dispute.

You guys are perfectly capable of working this out on your own - compromise. We're not asking you guys to hug and sing songs together, but you can absolutely act like people in a community and find a solution that works for both of you.

[Pint]

So bda's force considered a raid by the rules is griefed by Tmo but since Tmo wasn't a raid their actions will go overlooked by the staff? That's a pretty bad precendent to be setting wouldn't you think? Also not to discredit the notion of working things out between guilds bc that is the way things should be handled, but everyone on the box knows that bda and Tmo are very unlikely to work this out. At least not until they both get slapped with one of those "bad for both parties" gm resolutions that you guys keep mentioning.

[Ella`Ella]

Q: Will the planes be open to everyone?
A: Yes. Please be respectful to your fellow players and respect their space. If there is a guild getting ready to raid Hate for some armor and they start pulling creatures, don't go up there and sit on top of them pulling mobs in their area as well. If Guild A is doing Hate, then perhaps Guild B should be doing Fear. Basically, don't be a douche bag.

**While this question is outdated, we still advise that this is a good rule to follow when possible. To clarify, there is no limit to the number of guilds/people allowed in the planes at one time. It is probably in your best interest, however, to not have multiple raids in the planes at the same time, as this can cause issues (training, etc)

Odd how you must have missed this gem, Chest.

[quido]

Raid suspensions are not a chip to be used in negotiations between guilds. Consider it off the table completely, Chest. If the staff chooses to take punitive action, that is their prerogative; it is not yours. Figure out something else.