Variance

[lite]

Variance is the best thing to continue server growth. Zerging is too convenient in a non variance server. Variance allows for smaller crews to have an opportunity by placing emphasis of the target they see as most important. Azrael continued to promote variance in order to deter zerg mode even when they were at top and controlling every pixel at its 168th hour. Simulated repops was an interesting concept but an overall failure since rogean has to trigger it each time and subsequently we've gone months without one. The man is busy and has a lot going on, understandable.

Anyways, you'll still catch my black ass in VP every sunday, where numbers aren't everything and warm bodies can actually hinder you. PS , this sunday I will be out of town, enjoy =/

[Nirgon]

Stop gearing Nilly apps for Velious bro

[Gaanon]

Lite isn't the leader of Red Dawn I know you're a stupid fuck that only played here briefly and was bad then.

[citizen1080]

Variance is the worst possible thing you could implement to help a smaller guild. You obviously have not played on blue.

[hivemind]

A no variance system rewards the guild/force/team that is most dominant. Why is this? It should be fairly easy to understand, but let me explain this for anyone who might have some sort of cognitive deficiency:

First, what do I mean by the guild/force/team that is most dominant? I'm referring to the guild that is able to kill the majority of the raid content--currently Nihilum(?), previously Azrael (few weeks), and then before that Nihilum (?). The group that kills Dragon X dictates when Dragon X will respawn... to the second. In this way, the group that is in power gets more powerful by getting more loot and getting an *exact* timer.

The particularly problematic part of this equation, is that the "strength in numbers" strategy is simply too strong in Everquest. This can be observed in a strict PVE context where we are talking about 32khp dragons and a non-capped raid force. Clearly it is advantageous to recruit/bring as many people to a raid as possible, since "zerging" is an incredibly effective strategy that is viable because of the open-raid structure of this game. So we can see that in PVE there is a clear and massive advantage for zerging down content. Now when we contextualize this purely pve example within the confines of a pvp server... well, now there is even more reason and even more benefit to bringing even more people. Surely some of this content is doable with 2-3 groups (assuming no interference). Yes, it would be more brainless with more people, but let's assume possibility of interference (since this is a pvp server) and at this point "strength in numbers" is the only strat worth considering.

With a no variance system, guilds/teams/forces can schedule "raid" and "pvp" times. Again, make clear note that the dominant force will actually be able to control spawn timers (and I believe there was a period of time where dragons were repopping and being slain at 6am in the morning (I have no idea what time zone, assumedly somewhere in the US)). This is a clear counterexample to the argument that when everyone knows the spawn timer for a raid boss, there will be pvp contention. When the dragon-slayers have complete control of when a boss dies, it makes the server less competitive.

PvP at end game on this server is sort of like old school warfare. Everyone knows the time and the place that the war is going to take place, and each force lines up their infantry, artillery, and cavalry. I am not kidding when I tell you that these guilds spend hours buffing/rebuffing in preparation for the first repop... logging out hoards of alternate characters/other accounts in the vicinity of where the first pvp battle will take place. It is anything but spontaneous, and in this way it's categorically different than any pvp that takes place lvl 55 and lower. In my opinion, pvp loses a lot of the fun when it becomes so structured and contrived.

The most surprising part of all of this is that the blue server apparently has variance. And you know what they all complain about? FTE ruling. Well -- I do not think the concept of tracking a zone for 12+ hours, or this concept of javelin-spamming at spawn point are the sort of problems that red players can't work out amongst themselves... Most importantly, with variance a 100 person guild will not be able to schedule 80% of their members to show up at a specific time on a specific day to contest an entire week's worth of raid content. Instead, players/groups/guilds will be awarded for being online (AND DISCOVERING) that a raid target is up. Extra emphasis will be placed on quickly discovering targets are up, forming a raid force and mobilizing to either kill or contest the mob. Bat-phones exist, but with a variance system there will NECESSARILY be less people contesting the mob from each side which will make both the strict pve as well as the pvp encounters **more skill focused and less numbers reliant**. Variance adds different avenues to outplay a more dominant guild that relies heavily/primarily on numbers/static timers. Again, finding a raid-target shortly after it has spawned, being able to quickly mobilize, attempting pve content with smaller numbers (if a dragon is up and you have people and there is no competition... try to kill the dragon with what you have before the opposing force realizes its up)--these will all be new and important components of strategy for each guild.

There is no easy way to hard-code in some formula for population balance, especially since this is a "FFA" pvp server (which in functionality is a 2 team pvp server lvl 56+). Nevertheless, population balance is a integral part of this game. My recommendation is to hard-code in some very easy fixes, starting with a variance system that you are apparently already running on blue. Copy/paste should not be so difficult. Implementing variance will definitely help decrease how much reward any group/team/force gets for stacking numbers. This is not to say that "strength in numbers" will discontinue being an effective strategy... the people employing it will just not be rewarded as heavily.

[quido]

Variance is the worst possible thing you could implement to help a smaller guild. You obviously have not played on blue.

It's a bit different on red, Bob. Think about it.

[Nirgon]

Lite isn't the leader of Red Dawn I know you're a stupid fuck that only played here briefly and was bad then.

Ah yes that old spark, trolling the variance threads

:cool:

Variance is the worst possible thing you could implement to help a smaller guild. You obviously have not played on blue.


Funny how Bob and I try to save you from yourself.

[Sektor]

A no variance system rewards the guild/force/team that is most dominant. Why is this? It should be fairly easy to understand, but let me explain this for anyone who might have some sort of cognitive deficiency:

First, what do I mean by the guild/force/team that is most dominant? I'm referring to the guild that is able to kill the majority of the raid content--currently Nihilum(?), previously Azrael (few weeks), and then before that Nihilum (?). The group that kills Dragon X dictates when Dragon X will respawn... to the second. In this way, the group that is in power gets more powerful by getting more loot and getting an *exact* timer.

The particularly problematic part of this equation, is that the "strength in numbers" strategy is simply too strong in Everquest. This can be observed in a strict PVE context where we are talking about 32khp dragons and a non-capped raid force. Clearly it is advantageous to recruit/bring as many people to a raid as possible, since "zerging" is an incredibly effective strategy that is viable because of the open-raid structure of this game. So we can see that in PVE there is a clear and massive advantage for zerging down content. Now when we contextualize this purely pve example within the confines of a pvp server... well, now there is even more reason and even more benefit to bringing even more people. Surely some of this content is doable with 2-3 groups (assuming no interference). Yes, it would be more brainless with more people, but let's assume possibility of interference (since this is a pvp server) and at this point "strength in numbers" is the only strat worth considering.

With a no variance system, guilds/teams/forces can schedule "raid" and "pvp" times. Again, make clear note that the dominant force will actually be able to control spawn timers (and I believe there was a period of time where dragons were repopping and being slain at 6am in the morning (I have no idea what time zone, assumedly somewhere in the US)). This is a clear counterexample to the argument that when everyone knows the spawn timer for a raid boss, there will be pvp contention. When the dragon-slayers have complete control of when a boss dies, it makes the server less competitive.

PvP at end game on this server is sort of like old school warfare. Everyone knows the time and the place that the war is going to take place, and each force lines up their infantry, artillery, and cavalry. I am not kidding when I tell you that these guilds spend hours buffing/rebuffing in preparation for the first repop... logging out hoards of alternate characters/other accounts in the vicinity of where the first pvp battle will take place. It is anything but spontaneous, and in this way it's categorically different than any pvp that takes place lvl 55 and lower. In my opinion, pvp loses a lot of the fun when it becomes so structured and contrived.

The most surprising part of all of this is that the blue server apparently has variance. And you know what they all complain about? FTE ruling. Well -- I do not think the concept of tracking a zone for 12+ hours, or this concept of javelin-spamming at spawn point are the sort of problems that red players can't work out amongst themselves... Most importantly, with variance a 100 person guild will not be able to schedule 80% of their members to show up at a specific time on a specific day to contest an entire week's worth of raid content. Instead, players/groups/guilds will be awarded for being online (AND DISCOVERING) that a raid target is up. Extra emphasis will be placed on quickly discovering targets are up, forming a raid force and mobilizing to either kill or contest the mob. Bat-phones exist, but with a variance system there will NECESSARILY be less people contesting the mob from each side which will make both the strict pve as well as the pvp encounters **more skill focused and less numbers reliant**. Variance adds different avenues to outplay a more dominant guild that relies heavily/primarily on numbers/static timers. Again, finding a raid-target shortly after it has spawned, being able to quickly mobilize, attempting pve content with smaller numbers (if a dragon is up and you have people and there is no competition... try to kill the dragon with what you have before the opposing force realizes its up)--these will all be new and important components of strategy for each guild.

There is no easy way to hard-code in some formula for population balance, especially since this is a "FFA" pvp server (which in functionality is a 2 team pvp server lvl 56+). Nevertheless, population balance is a integral part of this game. My recommendation is to hard-code in some very easy fixes, starting with a variance system that you are apparently already running on blue. Copy/paste should not be so difficult. Implementing variance will definitely help decrease how much reward any group/team/force gets for stacking numbers. This is not to say that "strength in numbers" will discontinue being an effective strategy... the people employing it will just not be rewarded as heavily.

Well written post whoever you are.

[Nirgon]

its like taking sharp objects away from your retarded children
and them throwing a fit

[Sektor]

its like taking sharp objects away from your retarded children
and them throwing a fit

Do you even play on red or blue? lol 11k posts you are SICK.

[heartbrand]

all you need is sim repops that reset timer and happen more frequently. thx.


[also velious]

[Nirgon]

+1

classic to have them repops too

funny how that works aint it

[Sektor]

omg 14k LOL

[Nirgon]

http://www.bodybuildingwithoutsteroids.com/uploads/6/6/9/0/6690868/3436199.jpg

[quido]

It's not a tumor

[hivemind]

Well written post whoever you are.

There is a lack of subjectivity in my post that anyone with half of a brain and a fluency in English should be able to discern. I already took precaution to dispell moronic myths like:

Variance is the worst possible thing you could implement to help a smaller guild. You obviously have not played on blue.

A perspective like this is obviously not red--I admitted to not having played blue here, but let me just quote myself on this:


The most surprising part of all of this is that the blue server apparently has variance. And you know what they all complain about? FTE ruling. Well -- I do not think the concept of tracking a zone for 12+ hours, or this concept of javelin-spamming at spawn point are the sort of problems that red players can't work out amongst themselves...

So please, stop trying to use the blue model of variance as being a perfect analogy to red--the two servers have different rulesets, pvp being quite an important variable when it comes down to things like poopsocking with a javelin.

[Nirgon]

If you guys can't even log in on time I don't see a lot of hope for you tracking shit for 12 hours straight


Dispel that myth

[hivemind]

all you need is sim repops that reset timer and happen more frequently. thx.


[also velious]


In general, I think it is a bad idea for the GM's to put into place some mechanism that they have to constantly and mechanically iterate in order to help bring some better sense of balance to the server. I am referring to simulated repops... People have already complained, over and over and over again that it has been X days since last repop, and that they understand GMs and/or Rogean are busy. Who the hell thought it was a good idea to try to balance things out with a mechanical process like this?

If you didn't realize or otherwise don't have a clue, adding more rules or adding more mechanical inputs for the GMs to deal with is not actually a good thing. Look at blue compared to red, all the bullshit petitions that they have to deal with because neckbeards can't work out pixels amongst themselves. You give them the opportunity to kill each other (ie work things out amongst themselves) and all of a sudden you don't have to expend hours upon hours scouring petition after petition trying to make all parties happy.

The GENERAL idea is that the less time GMs/Rogean have to spend trying to babysit this server... and the more that they can implement code or automatic processes (ie "Variance", the title of this post), the more time they can spend elsewhere improving the quality of these two servers.

Let me reiterate once more that the idea of having manually simulated repops is a terrible, terrible idea. Not only is it not a true analog to variance, it requires all this additional work on the GM/staff side that ultimately only results in people QQing and asking for more frequent repops (and pixels).

[lite]

all you need is sim repops that reset timer and happen more frequently. thx.


[also velious]


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FRUWnC0UcJ8/UB7DFrlDL4I/AAAAAAAACH8/rzUepy5Xpmw/s1600/christian-bale-kermit-the-frog.gif

although... I'd still be interested in seeing variance playout. I strongly believe it will cause fights to spark all over the world at random times.

[Nirgon]

So its agreed

Rogean needs to go do a 42 day restart in 3 hours and we're all happy

Classic? Check
Chance for random #s for both sides? Check
Pixels will drop (what this is really about)? Check

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

If you guys can't even log in on time I don't see a lot of hope for you tracking shit for 12 hours straight


Dispel that myth

This.

As the underdog you are going to be out tracked and lose out.

As the server leaders your life is going to be hell until you have enough guild trackers to simply rotate through. After that it's going to be an inconvenience but not insurmountable.

Your highest DKP or favoured loot council members will wind up being trackers or people who log on to track.

"Meaningful" pvp will degenerate into ranger slap fights in a pre-determined safe spot.

[Nirgon]

dreams of fuckin
an R&B bitch

[Tudamil]

While you're at it, implement it where you can't zone plug ala garagebox.

[Mac Drettj]

No means no

Thought you alrdy learned that

[Buhbuh]

Lite, I've told you before that I don't think you're the best leader for Azrael. I'm sure you disagree, obviously. But I think it's an appropriate way to start a constructive criticism.

Nihilum was probably in the worst shape it had ever been in with that Diablo 3 exodus. During that time Azrael had the better class makeup, and arguably better geared characters overall against the largely Red Dawn apps/ maybe eight veteran Nihilum members. You can argue that point all you want, and I'm sure most people would like to (the inherent assumption is that when you see a Nihilum tag, they're better geared and that's just the way it is).

I don't mean to discredit the strides Azrael made during that time. You controlled everything for a good month and a half. Good job.

But once again, Nihilum pushed back and met you with a response. They adapted, as they always have during Azrael's short stints.

And for a minute, it almost seemed like you were working on your own response in order to fight back. You met our 50 with your 50. Here's where the criticism comes in.

You don't want to adapt to those standards. You are only willing to go so far as a guild. You patently disagree with large numbers, because you don't want to invest the time to build up thirty new players. With the exception of maybe Brobb, Sektor, and a few others (notably people not even from your guild originally), your guild is not consistently generous to new players.

I love being an underdog in this game, but you make your guild fail. There's only two options, though. And because I disagree with the way you lead (mostly because I can lead a guild better and know this), it leaves one option left (as far as raiding goes).

You're not an inviting guild for new players. You never were. That's the kind of environment your guild creates. Obviously, you've got a few new players here and there that fit right into your clique (Chipp, Edward), and they'll disagree about being inviting, but on the whole you've been pretty terrible at recruiting and retaining new players. You and your own officers have stated publicly that you don't like 80% of the people now in your guild and part of the zerg you're forced to create, which is basically the quickest way to sabotage yourself.

Red Dawn was a great third option, but Heartbrand pretty much single-handedly ended that by naively revealing his (not so much the rest of the guild's) intentions to you. He over-extended, and it helped the guild crumble. It surely left a lot of sour taste in people's mouths, and I'm sure Lewis, now a part of your guild, can tell you. I hadn't spent a single DKP, and that goes for a lot of other people in that guild. I gave a T staff away to someone I knew would be Azrael if we failed as a guild. You yourself found me at Verix almost every day, and I farmed over 50 of them to try and push RD as a viable third option in VP. The point is that your guild doesn't do shit like that. They don't go four months spending all their plat and doing shit for other people, not asking for anything in return.

So basically what it comes down to is: how will variance help you?

Nihilum has shown consistently that they adapt and do what is necessary to keep their spot at the top. Azrael, for the most part, has shown that they lack the tenacity.

I'm not saying this to make it a pissing contest. It's just my honest assessment of both guilds. I'm sure even an outsider could see that without ever having played here. You can't keep looking for ways to make it more fair for your guild when you're not willing to go far enough to make things happen. Stop asking for changes to the server based on your incompetency as a guild leader. It's been three weeks since your reign, and you're already back to the boards. Try harder in game.



TLDR; adapt, learn, and don't put boundaries on the lengths you're willing to go as a guild.

[Colgate]

lot of novels in this thread that went unread

[lite]

It's been three weeks since your reign, and you're already back to the boards. Try harder in game

http://puu.sh/97Znv/59fe74687a.png

not really... I didn't like the way things worked even when we were winning. Even Tune said he was down with variance during this time period and said he'd talk to the other leaders of Nihilum, even vaporize was discussing it with me.

[hivemind]

So basically what it comes down to is: how will variance help you?

You're actually wrong. It doesn't come down to how will variance help Lite, or Lite's guild or Nihilum or Nizzar or you. (Who are you?) This thread is about how variance will help the server, independent of how many guilds are on it or what those guilds names are. Nearly the entirety of your post was subjective, or in the case of the text quoted above, quite simply wrong.

Unfortunately, Buhbuh, you are not an anomaly on this server. In fact, there are a lot of people who have a similarly discolored perspective about the server and have a difficult (perhaps impossible(?)) time framing potential server changes in an unbiased, theoretical sense.

Again, it's **NOT** how variance will help Lite, Nizzar, either of their guilds or the members thereof. It is how variance will help THE SERVER BE MORE COMPETITIVE. And if you are unsure of that, then I encourage you to read my TLDR of a post. Mostly for an exercise in literacy, but also in hopes of developing some critical thinking skills.

[Genedin]

*twist*

Hivemind is actually Rellapsed back on his medication.


All in all some good points in this thread.

[hivemind]

*twist*

Hivemind is actually Rellapsed back on his medication.

Implying there exists some form of medication that will make a retard non-retarded.

[Buhbuh]

You're actually wrong. It doesn't come down to how will variance help Lite, or Lite's guild or Nihilum or Nizzar or you. (Who are you?) This thread is about how variance will help the server, independent of how many guilds are on it or what those guilds names are. Nearly the entirety of your post was subjective, or in the case of the text quoted above, quite simply wrong.

Unfortunately, Buhbuh, you are not an anomaly on this server. In fact, there are a lot of people who have a similarly discolored perspective about the server and have a difficult (perhaps impossible(?)) time framing potential server changes in an unbiased, theoretical sense.

Again, it's **NOT** how variance will help Lite, Nizzar, either of their guilds or the members thereof. It is how variance will help THE SERVER BE MORE COMPETITIVE. And if you are unsure of that, then I encourage you to read my TLDR of a post. Mostly for an exercise in literacy, but also in hopes of developing some critical thinking skills.

I didn't say I was unbiased.

The fact that you don't see the transparency in Lite's posts means you haven't been here for very long.

This is about how it will help him, hence why that criticism is directed at him.

The argument for or against variance from anyone else may be about server growth, but it's not when it's from him.

Mostly for an exercise in literacy, but also in hopes of developing some critical thinking skills.

Lol. Be more of a condescending tool, though.

[Kergan]

Sad day when Colgate has the best post in the thread. :(

[lite]

So basically what it comes down to is: how will variance help you?

It will help everyone because all targets are no longer conveniently lined up in a small time slot that one massive force can easily be present for. Instead smaller versions of said force will have to compete for them at spontaneous times. Then the smaller crews of the server can start working their way into the battlefield. All fights being locked down into a small time slot will only allow for one type of guild. Being a huge guild shouldn't be the only enjoyable play mode.

[Kergan]

I give credit to Lite for at least sticking to his guns in good times and bad for his guild, even if I completely disagree with him.

[hivemind]

I didn't say I was unbiased.
The fact that you don't see the transparency in Lite's posts means you haven't been here for very long.

The fact that you have not quoted to refute any of my original post means that you haven't read (or been able to understand) my post, or that you are unable to refute my continuous assertions that a variance system will bring more competition to this server.

I understand that the idea itself, as obvious as it may seem to me, may be harder for other people to understand. For this reason, I actually went to some length to explain in very simple terms how a no-variance system takes away competitiveness and reinforces the power of "strength in numbers" strategy.

[lite]

I give credit to Lite for at least sticking to his guns in good times and bad for his guild, even if I completely disagree with him.

Large guilds are not for everyone, and that shouldn't mean you are out of the game. I didn't enjoy it, and I didn't enjoy what Azrael was having to become to stay relevant. Some people just want to play with their closest buds at their own pace . This server doesn't support that.

[Mac Drettj]

Hahaha itiot

[Kergan]

Large guilds are not for everyone, and that shouldn't mean you are out of the game. I didn't enjoy it, and I didn't enjoy what Azrael was having to become to stay relevant.

Large guilds aren't really my style either to be honest. If it were up to me we'd have 10 guilds of 40 people and we'd go all GoT style with alliances and backstabbing each other.

But this isn't RZ in 2000, unfortunately.

[MC Epic]

This is about how it will help him, hence why that criticism is directed at him.

The argument for or against variance from anyone else may be about server growth, but it's not when it's from him.

You are wrong.

Lite has never once changed his stance on variance. Even during the time when Nihilum's core "left the server", he championed variance within Azrael and in talks with Tune and server staff. When Azrael had all mobs on lock down, Lite still wanted variance to improve server competition.

You don't know the guy in the least.

[lite]

Large guilds aren't really my style either to be honest. If it were up to me we'd have 10 guilds of 40 people and we'd go all GoT style with alliances and backstabbing each other.

But this isn't RZ in 2000, unfortunately.


doesn't need to be in order to take steps in the right direction.

[Kergan]

It will help everyone because all targets are no longer conveniently lined up in a small time slot that one massive force can easily be present for. Instead smaller versions of said force will have to compete for them at spontaneous times. Then the smaller crews of the server can start working their way into the battlefield. All fights being locked down into a small time slot will only allow for one type of guild. Being a huge guild shouldn't be the only enjoyable play mode.

If variance didn't have this effect on blue why would it here? The fact is on a PVP server you have an even bigger advantage being part of the Zerg (protection). No amount of rule changes is going to alter human nature.

[Kergan]

doesn't need to be in order to take steps in the right direction.

The only way this server ends up the way you want it to is if Nihilum disbands and multiple guilds rise from the ashes. But as debatably the most stable guild in the history of the emu project I wouldn't count on that happening.

[lite]

Because on blue you can conviniently sit afk at a spawn point with 40+ people waiting for a teamspeak poke, while a monk leaves a cat on his keyboard spamming the javlin button. The red equivalent here is much more of a task, and won't be carried out on targets that are less desirable to a guild. aka .. things will start slipping and motivate smaller crews. You are are not gonna get Phara dar numbers on all tiers of mobs. Red style variance will be a task to lock down, and the biggest guild will still be rewarded with the most gear for it.

[Nirgon]

On blue the people that leave red to join TMO get denied.

[Mac Drettj]

http://www.sternfannetwork.com/xen/index.php?attachments/stupid-thread-gif.245217/

[lite]

The only way this server ends up the way you want it to is if Nihilum disbands and multiple guilds rise from the ashes. But as debatably the most stable guild in the history of the emu project I wouldn't count on that happening.

No need for any guild to disband, there's plenty of new blood on this server and people who'd be willing to operate with smaller crews if it wasnt guaranteed that'd they'd meet 50 people when they arrived to contest.

[Andis]

It will help everyone because all targets are no longer conveniently lined up in a small time slot that one massive force can easily be present for. Instead smaller versions of said force will have to compete for them at spontaneous times. Then the smaller crews of the server can start working their way into the battlefield. All fights being locked down into a small time slot will only allow for one type of guild. Being a huge guild shouldn't be the only enjoyable play mode.

agreed

and must be implemented

for the servers sake

[Kergan]

So if the same guild still gets most the loot what's the point? Wasting hundreds of hours on the worst aspect of EverQuest so 10% of the less active population can see a dragon once a month will just drive people away.

[karsten]

hey guys, a variance thread!

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/vg/image/1368/66/1368664993562.png

[lite]

So if the same guild still gets most the loot what's the point? Wasting hundreds of hours on the worst aspect of EverQuest so 10% of the less active population can see a dragon once a month will just drive people away.

when you say the worst aspect, you are thinking that these people sitting at the spawn are not going to be getting PVP'd . Believe me, my crew and many other crews will be actively causing PVP in whatever location a spawn is expected and people are gathered. This isn't blue, its such a different dynamic. Fights will be breaking out all over the place. In addition to that, burning "hundreds of hours" poopsocking is optional. If a VP guild wants to be dicks and try and camp the time slot Fay Talendor Trakanon and other shit that could go towards people with nothing, then they should have to pay the price. Not this convenient nonsense.

[Kergan]

Honestly, what I would do is take take all the raid mobs, divide them up and say:

This group goes to Nihilum this week.
Second group goes to Az/whoever this week.
Third group we fight over like men.

Fuck this server with no PVP, best times I've had are the brawls over mobs. People quit when they don't get pixels.

Variance kills it for me.

[HippoNipple]

Variance helps hardcore players and a group of 15-25 can do a lot but they need to play A LOT.

This would be good for Lite's core players and it is bad for casual players.

I think it is in Lite's favor but I think it is fair for groups of 15-25 people with really high play times to be viable.

[Kergan]

when you say the worst aspect, you are thinking that these people sitting at the spawn are not going to be getting PVP'd . Believe me, my crew and many other crews will be actively causing PVP in whatever location a spawn is expected and people are gathered. This isn't blue, its such a different dynamic.

Not the kind of PVP I'm interested in, man. I'm surprised the idea of porting around wiping out level 10 ranger trackbots excites you.

[lite]

pussies quit when they don't get pixels..

ftfy

[lite]

Not the kind of PVP I'm interested in, man. I'm surprised the idea of porting around wiping out level 10 ranger trackbots excites you.

what lvl 10 ranger are you planning to park for CT , all the VP dragons, Innoruk , Trakanon . these are all FFA zones, if you want to know when its going to spawn you are going to have to have at least a group present, and that group is going to be getting attacked. Believe me.

[hivemind]

So if the same guild still gets most the loot what's the point? Wasting hundreds of hours on the worst aspect of EverQuest so 10% of the less active population can see a dragon once a month will just drive people away.

Who are you and what guild are you in? Changing the code is literally an instance of copy/paste ... who cares about the players "wasting" their time when they log into the elf sim or not. You either log in because you want to play the game, or you don't. So for the sake of keeping your delusions at bay, try not referencing the concept of "wasting hundreds of hours" in Everquest. Newsflash: /played = "wasted" time.

For all the posts in this thread that I hear people disagreeing in primarily one of two ways:

1) "Variance won't change anything" Well, if this is actually the case (and not just a poorly supported hypothesis), then I guess the only thing that was lost is the 10 seconds it must take to copy/replace this line of code between the red and blue servers.

2) "Blue is a shitfest with variance, you are dumb if you think that variance will help out red" Well, you are almost certainly a blue player if you are still struggling with the concept of being able to attack people on this server. Furthermore, there are no compendiums of raid rules and engagements for this server... you also cannot afk for hours upon hours at a spawn point. This kind of perspective is the more immediately disregardable of the two, but both viewpoints are incredibly short-sighted.

Again, a no-variance system favors the team/guild/force that is dominant. If you have any understanding of basic sociology (or are capable of remedial level critical thinking) then you must understand that a person or group in power will not want to give up power. If you are in a dominant guild and you are arguing against variance while simultaneously saying that it won't change anything ... you just look like a damned fool.

[Buhbuh]

The fact that you have not quoted to refute any of my original post means that you haven't read (or been able to understand) my post, or that you are unable to refute my continuous assertions that a variance system will bring more competition to this server.

I understand that the idea itself, as obvious as it may seem to me, may be harder for other people to understand. For this reason, I actually went to some length to explain in very simple terms how a no-variance system takes away competitiveness and reinforces the power of "strength in numbers" strategy.

I didn't quote them because I don't care about your post. You're being pedantic and arrogant for no reason. Do you talk down to people like that all the time, or is it just fun for you?

I'm not even talking to you or arguing for/ against variance. I'm being critical of a guild that was doing well and is now on the boards asking for changes more frequently than usual after only a few weeks of not doing well.

I could care less if variance is implemented. If you want me to refute you though, Nihilum has more neckbeards that will sit in every zone where a raid target is due and still get 90% of the targets.

In theory, with pvp, the potential is wider for other guilds to get mobs, surely, but even that can be curbed by even more zerging on one side. People will adapt. They always do.

[HippoNipple]

what lvl 10 ranger are you planning to park for CT , all the VP dragons, Innoruk , Trakanon . these are all FFA zones, if you want to know when its going to spawn you are going to have to have at least a group present, and that group is going to be getting attacked. Believe me.

More small scale skirmishes, more play time needed, less large scale battles.

It benefits a guild who can put in more hours total vs who can load up more players for specific times. Still easier for a zerg guild to put up more hours with more players but no lifers can help balance it a little bit.

[Mac Drettj]

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130404145400/glee/images/4/41/You're-not-just-wrong-you're-stupid.gif

[Buhbuh]

If you have any understanding of basic sociology (or are capable of remedial level critical thinking)

hahahaha

you are such a lousy cunt

[hivemind]

Honestly, what I would do is take take all the raid mobs, divide them up and say:

This group goes to Nihilum this week.
Second group goes to Az/whoever this week.
Third group we fight over like men.

Fuck this server with no PVP, best times I've had are the brawls over mobs. People quit when they don't get pixels.

Variance kills it for me.

When you post ideas like this, assumedly your own ideas... how can you expect to be taken seriously? Not just this post, but any post in this thread. Your ideas are objectively unimplementable, and in a more subjective sense, they are bad. Why are they bad? Well, the first criterion this idea fails to meet is that it would be literally impossible to implement.

So kudos for the cool thought, I guess. (Do you have any proposals for world peace or solving the hunger crisis? Maybe we could all just try to act nicer to one another IRL and then we would live in a much more loving and beautiful world.) But it means absolutely nothing to anyone else and nothing will come of it. Definitely keep arguing against something that would be easy to implement, that would definitely bring more competition to this server.

[R Flair]

Comes to pvp server, requests static mob timers allowing competition be removed.

[hivemind]

I didn't quote them because I don't care about your post. You're being pedantic and arrogant for no reason. Do you talk down to people like that all the time, or is it just fun for you?

I'm not even talking to you or arguing for/ against variance. I'm being critical of a guild that was doing well and is now on the boards asking for changes more frequently than usual after only a few weeks of not doing well.

I could care less if variance is implemented. If you want me to refute you though, Nihilum has more neckbeards that will sit in every zone where a raid target is due and still get 90% of the targets.

In theory, with pvp, the potential is wider for other guilds to get mobs, surely, but even that can be curbed by even more zerging on one side. People will adapt. They always do.

You are definitely being critical, definitely being biased, and definitely not thinking. Being "critical" is one very important part of critical thinking. However, I would argue that "thinking" is the even more important aspect of "critical thinking".

You did not quote or refute my post because you cannot. My post is not about Lite or Nihilum or Azrael, it is about variance and the competitiveness of a server. I see that you have no interest in discussing what is good for the server... rather you are following your own agenda (not the thread's). Let me requote you so you don't think I'm just making personal attacks. In your own words:


I'm not even talking to you or arguing for/ against variance. I'm being critical of a guild

and

I could care less if variance is implemented.

I am pretty sure we all know that you meant to say that you "couldn't care less" if variance was implemented. (And I know that you have a predisposition for calling me pedantic--but let it be known that I place value on meaning what I say. This doesn't mean that I don't try my best to interpret what you are trying to say, even if it involves me replacing words you typed yourself for words that I imagine you wanted to write.) But what you have effectively conveyed is that you don't actually care about variance or no-variance... you are posting in this thread to be critical about a guild. That would suggest that your posts are both unrelated (unhelpful) to this thread, and that you are trying to create drama by turning this thread about a server mechanic (variance) into your critical remarks about a particular guild or its leader.

[Mac Drettj]

http://www.oriooli.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/stupid-gifs-6.gif

[Buhbuh]

I think what you're all getting at is:

1. Azrael abandoned zerg tactics
2. More skirmish PvP will come from variance implemented
3. Less larger scale PvP will occur (meaning it's pandering to smaller guilds).

Variance crowd is more in favor of small skirmish PvP for the potential of getting a mob but probably won't anyway because of neckbeards.

Anti-variance crowd enjoys mass PvP, think larger guilds need more coordination and because of that are rewarded for it which has always been the case in EQ, and EQ is already a time sink so don't subject people to more.

4. Hivemind is condescending and thinks he's smarter than everyone else.

[Genedin]

Holy smokes hivemind is my new favorite forumquester. I especially liked.

"Again, a no-variance system favors the team/guild/force that is dominant. If you have any understanding of basic sociology (or are capable of remedial level critical thinking) then you must understand that a person or group in power will not want to give up power. If you are in a dominant guild and you are arguing against variance while simultaneously saying that it won't change anything ... you just look like a damned fool."


He has got dretti so confused with all of these big words he has resorted to posting random gifs because his head hurts from too much reading.

[hivemind]

Holy smokes hivemind is my new favorite forumquester. I especially liked.

"Again, a no-variance system favors the team/guild/force that is dominant. If you have any understanding of basic sociology (or are capable of remedial level critical thinking) then you must understand that a person or group in power will not want to give up power. If you are in a dominant guild and you are arguing against variance while simultaneously saying that it won't change anything ... you just look like a damned fool."


He has got dretti so confused with all of these big words he has resorted to posting random gifs because his head hurts from too much reading.

Don't worry, it's a tactic common to the mentally weak. Samwise learned early on that he can only hope to retort with unoriginal .gifs that google spoon-feeds him.

[Colgate]

if the post has more than 2 or 3 lines of text very large chance that i simply will not read it

[lite]

3. Less larger scale PvP will occur (meaning it's pandering to smaller guilds).


with variance some confrontations will escalate to large scale pvp. without variance and one dominant zerg guild, 0 opportunity of large scale pvp and 0 small scale skrimishes, We have the data to back that up, you've been here long enough to know there was months without pvp. The current model doesn't work, and neither does people who went nihilum claiming that if you do this this and that it will all be better. A promise of simulated repops is the only thing that stimulated competition for a while. We know for a fact that 95% of this server's existence has been a time period of no pvp and people such as yourself claiming that you have the answer.

[Mac Drettj]

Sorry I haven't read a single hive mind post

U must b new here

[Rellapse40]

o this again

[hivemind]

4. Hivemind is condescending and thinks he's smarter than everyone else.

I understand that it must be frustrating when someone takes a minute to dissect one of your posts and use your own words to underline how unintelligible or misdirected you sound. Again, I encourage you to actually read my posts, and quote + refute anything you might disagree with. As you can see, I have made liberal use of your own words in helping to demonstrate to you why I consider your input (as it pertains to this thread) to be almost entirely worthless.

I have been posting in this thread, talking about variance and my idea that variance can only make this server more competitive. You posted explicitly stating that you don't care about variance, don't care about discussing it in this thread titled "Variance" and that you have ulterior motives involving being critical of a particular guild and/or its leader.

Feel free to keep making attacks on my persona, or otherwise telling people what I think when I have very clearly (and precisely) written in my own words what I think about variance. Yes, I have disagreed with posters (including yourself) and very specifically quoted (and in some cases bolded/enlarged) phrases so that you or others can better see the fallacy or the emotional/off-topic responses that are riddling this thread.

Again, the thread is about Variance. Not Nihilum or Azrael, Nizzar or Lite.

[Sektor]

I think what you're all getting at is:

1. Azrael abandoned zerg tactics
2. More skirmish PvP will come from variance implemented
3. Less larger scale PvP will occur (meaning it's pandering to smaller guilds).

Variance crowd is more in favor of small skirmish PvP for the potential of getting a mob but probably won't anyway because of neckbeards.

Anti-variance crowd enjoys mass PvP, think larger guilds need more coordination and because of that are rewarded for it which has always been the case in EQ, and EQ is already a time sink so don't subject people to more.

4. Hivemind is condescending and thinks he's smarter than everyone else.


I think the problem is you think you're smarter then everyone else, not Hiveman.

[heartbrand]

99% shot hivemind is slathar based upon my advanced textual interpretation skills




also dont need variance just need common sim repops with timer resets thanks

[Buhbuh]

with variance some confrontations will escalate to large scale pvp. without variance and one dominant zerg guild, 0 opportunity of large scale pvp and 0 small scale skrimishes, We have the data to back that up, you've been here long enough to know there was months without pvp. The current model doesn't work, and neither does people who went nihilum claiming that if you do this this and that, it will all be better.

Who is we? Do you mean you stopped trying in large scale PvP after three weeks? I had a lot of fun losing while you guys were on top.

I've been claiming what you should do in Azrael since Force. You just don't have any interest in it.

I'm kind of surprised myself that both sides are very uninterested in small skirmish PvP outside of contesting a mob or deterring someone from getting to a raid.

But Hivemind, you should probably play here a bit more before you argue, hypothetically, why variance would be a better option for this server.

You gotta stop trolling. If you had any experience on this server, you'd know that these variance threads don't come from an unbiased place. They come from players in a now smaller guild that have waned and lost the will to compete against a guild they were once equal in size with (hence the joke Azrael 19.0), and they want a better reason to log in each day. It's not enough to PvP just to do it.

It comes down to the pixels, every time. This is EQ. It's classic.

That being said, and despite the intentions of this thread, I'm actually for variance.

Hivemind lacks the context to even realize who it was making this thread and why it was made, so it's understandable that's he's conflating my criticism of the bias in this thread with his defense of variance.

I called you pedantic because you are. It doesn't matter whether or not you mean what you say. Anyone with even a modicum of reading comprehension can see that you're being garrulous and patronizing for no real reason. To put it in the words of people that post here: you're being a faggot.

[Supaskillz]

I don't see much difference.
Need to have a force able to login via bat phone win a battle and kill a mob? Getting more players will help.
Need to win a battle at a predetermined time and place? Getting more players will help.

This incentive is not going anywhere. Server is at best going to be a 2 party system at the top( hopefully this can be maintained and underdog doesn't get discouraged ). If ever there were 3, 2 would merge to crush the other.

[hivemind]

99% shot hivemind is slathar based upon my advanced textual interpretation skills




also dont need variance just need common sim repops with timer resets thanks

I'm flattered that people keep comparing (or supposing(?)) I am one of a host of people with professed mental disorders requiring medication. But seriously, you think I am funny or something? The flattery has gone too far.

Also, simulated repops are a terrible idea. Quoting myself since I'm not going to retype:

In general, I think it is a bad idea for the GM's to put into place some mechanism that they have to constantly and mechanically iterate in order to help bring some better sense of balance to the server. I am referring to simulated repops... People have already complained, over and over and over again that it has been X days since last repop, and that they understand GMs and/or Rogean are busy. Who the hell thought it was a good idea to try to balance things out with a mechanical process like this?

If you didn't realize or otherwise don't have a clue, adding more rules or adding more mechanical inputs for the GMs to deal with is not actually a good thing. Look at blue compared to red, all the bullshit petitions that they have to deal with because neckbeards can't work out pixels amongst themselves. You give them the opportunity to kill each other (ie work things out amongst themselves) and all of a sudden you don't have to expend hours upon hours scouring petition after petition trying to make all parties happy.

The GENERAL idea is that the less time GMs/Rogean have to spend trying to babysit this server... and the more that they can implement code or automatic processes (ie "Variance", the title of this post), the more time they can spend elsewhere improving the quality of these two servers.

Let me reiterate once more that the idea of having manually simulated repops is a terrible, terrible idea. Not only is it not a true analog to variance, it requires all this additional work on the GM/staff side that ultimately only results in people QQing and asking for more frequent repops (and pixels).


You might realize that you are one of the many people that I am referring to in the last bit of quoted (blue) text. Sim repops only results in people asking for more and more of them which is inherently problematic since they require staff implementation, as well as a myriad of other reasons that I'm honestly not even interested in going into.

[heartbrand]

NP, btw how's the job coming?

[hivemind]

NP, btw how's the job coming?

Friday off chea boi! But I be working this weekend so D: Oh wait, I decide my own hours more or less. I guess that means it's coming along fantastically.

Also, I don't have a kid or a family that I have to worry about so that's really a bonus. Fuckin love this elf sim man.

[Mac Drettj]

Are you Albanian and do you dance?

[Buhbuh]

I had a PB&J just now.


D-lish.

[bigeasy]

Post screams of my guild has been losing 90 percent of the pvp and raid targets and nobody wants to join the despicable people in my guild so I need variance to snipe mobs with my 20 man force

[Telron]

Why add unnecessary time sinks to a game that already makes you grind for everything else? Seriously... Do you really think Azrael is going to be the ones to come up on variance mobs?? They already are 90% offline 6 days a week lol i'm sure just the thing that will get them back in the game is a day of poop-socking.

[Slathar]

I'm not Hivemind. I haven't played in weeks.

[Clark]

Variance is the best thing to continue server growth. Zerging is too convenient in a non variance server. Variance allows for smaller crews to have an opportunity by placing emphasis of the target they see as most important. Azrael continued to promote variance in order to deter zerg mode even when they were at top and controlling every pixel at its 168th hour. Simulated repops was an interesting concept but an overall failure since rogean has to trigger it each time and subsequently we've gone months without one. The man is busy and has a lot going on, understandable.

Anyways, you'll still catch my black ass in VP every sunday, where numbers aren't everything and warm bodies can actually hinder you. PS , this sunday I will be out of town, enjoy =/

Nobody is that busy truthfully. Sounds jacked up I'd do repops for y'all if I were in his shoes.

[hivemind]

Why add unnecessary time sinks to a game that already makes you grind for everything else? Seriously... Do you really think Azrael is going to be the ones to come up on variance mobs?? They already are 90% offline 6 days a week lol i'm sure just the thing that will get them back in the game is a day of poop-socking.

Who are you? Oh, must be Nihilum.

Unnecessary time sinks. OH!!! You mean EverQuest... the game. You see, the thing is about the game ... you only log in to play it when you want to. So this faux argument about variance adding "unnecessary time sinks" is a load of horse shit, to put it lightly.

And if a change of no-variance to variance is literally as simple as copy/pasting code, and you assert that it will make zero difference for the server (or for Azrael)... then why are you trying to argue against it? It's a rhetorical question: your argument is invalid.

In regards to the timesink thing... I think you have a honest concern. But the concern is more along the lines of, with variance you (Nihilum) will have to expend more efforts (time) towards "poopsocking" to get dragons. You already asserted that Azrael are 90% offline 6 days a week so I assume you were unquestionably referring to Nihilum having to poopsock more to continue being dominant. This is actually the reason that variance should be implemented... so there is more competition on the server in terms of PVE and PVP, and so the top or dominant guild will have to expend more efforts to continue pulling in as much loot as they currently are.

[Feniggles]

o hi cast

[Buhbuh]

by that rationale, hivemind, you're punishing a dominant guild for just doing what they do.

i mean variance is fine, but if your reason for implementing it is because Nihilum is too dominant and no one can compete with them, why would you then change server mechanics because of it? that's not the route you want to take with this thread.

i don't disagree that there's something to be said for variance or its capacity to help smaller guilds to some degree, if only marginally, but from the other side of things, it would just seem like punishment to the dominant guild that has already made the effort to control most of everything.

of course the top guild is going be against it. it only hinders their efforts further while (potentially) benefiting everyone else. how is that even an argument against them? "you guys are too strong, so implement a new server mechanic."

i can tell you that people in the dominant guild... their argument will be that there are other ways to compete here, not just with variance. simulated repop was also a stride taken by the staff to improve competition, and now it isn't good enough? According to you, it wasn't a good idea at all? When will enough be enough?

^that's pretty much what they'll say to you.

[Kergan]

Who are you? Oh, must be Nihilum.

Unnecessary time sinks. OH!!! You mean EverQuest... the game. You see, the thing is about the game ... you only log in to play it when you want to. So this faux argument about variance adding "unnecessary time sinks" is a load of horse shit, to put it lightly.

And if a change of no-variance to variance is literally as simple as copy/pasting code, and you assert that it will make zero difference for the server (or for Azrael)... then why are you trying to argue against it? It's a rhetorical question: your argument is invalid.

In regards to the timesink thing... I think you have a honest concern. But the concern is more along the lines of, with variance you (Nihilum) will have to expend more efforts (time) towards "poopsocking" to get dragons. You already asserted that Azrael so I assume you were unquestionably referring to Nihilum having to poopsock more to continue being dominant. This is actually the reason that variance should be implemented... so there is more competition on the server in terms of PVE and PVP, and so the top or dominant guild will have to expend more efforts to continue pulling in as much loot as they currently are.

Except it won't lead to more competition. Nihilum will put in the extra effort and get the mobs. Nothing will change except making people poopsock, which is the unnecessary timesink he was referring to.

And the PVP argument is laughable. The biggest fights this server has EVER seen are a direct result of everyone knowing when a mob is going to spawn. Variance will lead to less opportunity to PVP over targets.

Variance is nothing but a sham for a chance to ninja raid targets from a superior force. Trying to paint this picture that every time a raid target spawns they'll be a brawl over it is quite simply delusional.

You want competition on this server? Trying having a guild besides Nihilum that doesn't shit up OOC and the forums with garbage and drive new players into our arms. Amazing how Red Dawn was able to pull 70 people into a Gore raid 2 months after forming with almost identical population numbers as we have on R99 now by taking a welcoming approach to new players. Literally 90% of our applications state something to the effect of "Azrael are assholes" when asked the question in their app why they chose us. It is Nihilum or they quit, because they'd rather quit then go to Azrael.

If you want to continue to portray yourselves as elitist PVP and internet badasses that's your prerogative, but don't make threads asking for devs to change the server to fit your playstyle. Sorry that the vast majority of people don't agree with you on how this server should work, but thems the breaks.

As for those that hate the zerg raiding and zerg mentality, you're just playing the wrong friggin game man. This game was BUILT around zerg raiding. Shits classic as classic can get.

[Mac Drettj]

Cast does have the tendency to write tldrs

[Kergan]

Cast does have the tendency to write tldrs

Me too. :\

[hivemind]

Except it won't lead to more competition. Nihilum will put in the extra effort and get the mobs. Nothing will change except making people poopsock, which is the unnecessary timesink he was referring to.

Right. You keep using this word unnecessary... So let me get this straight: you are saying that Nihilum is dominating now without variance. And you're saying that variance is "unnecessary" because Nihilum is just going "to put in the extra effort and get the mobs." You are saying that it doesn't matter either way, Nihilum will find a way to outneckbeard and out play Azrael (and the rest of the server). I understand you, I understand that you are Nihilum, and I understand that your ability to think in an abstract sense (removing yourself temporarily from the viewpoint of the dominant guild) is basically nonexistent.

As for those that hate the zerg raiding and zerg mentality, you're just playing the wrong friggin game man. This game was BUILT around zerg raiding. Shits classic as classic can get.

I already mentioned that strength in numbers (ie zerging) is/was a very strong strategy in Everquest (as well as many different games/applications...) but that having a no-variance server brings even more power to that strength in numbers (or zerging) tactic. With variance, you cannot simply schedule one week in advance when your next week's worth of loot is going to be 'contested' for. The only way you could conceivably continue to get as much loot post-variance is if you somehow were able to poopsock as hard as you are convinced Nihilum is capable of doing. That is great and all, but the point is that the dominant guild **SHOULD** have to expend more effort than they currently do to get as much loot as they are currently getting.

It's honestly not a very hard concept to understand. Yes, I keep hearing you and other people from Nihilum cry and say that variance will do nothing, other than create an "unnecessary" time sink. Well, no shit you see it as an "unnecessary time sink", because without variance, you wouldn't have to expend so much effort to get so much loot.

Are you honestly so delusional that you cannot see this for yourself?

[Mac Drettj]

Real strawman arg there hivenerd

[Buhbuh]

That is great and all, but the point is that the dominant guild **SHOULD** have to expend more effort than they currently do to get as much loot as they are currently getting.

Which is an opinion that you're entitled to have. You are probably not in Nihilum, I'm betting. You're right, it's not a hard concept to understand.

I doubt your opinions regarding this server and how it should be utilized are unbiased. You are living through a subjective experience at all times, so it's pointless to claim that you're the most level-headed dude in the room. And it's pretty fuckin' childish to talk down to people like they're infants.

There have been many changes over the course of a long period which were championed by people not in Nihilum in order to weaken Nihilum's strangle hold on the server's raid mobs.

Given Azrael's very vocal mindset of "destroy Nihilum," it's not really a surprise that another hot fix to get them re-interested in the game is being proposed.

I honestly don't mind the idea. But be aware that you claimed earlier in the thread that variance wasn't about the guilds on the server, Hivemind, yet you're now using them as evidence to support the idea.

[pgerman]

nihilum would not be able to get 60 neckbeards to log in every respawn of every mob if it wasn't a scheduled time. Because of the pvp element involved.

30, yea, 60, no






Therefore giving any smaller guild a chance at a fight of some kind, instead of 60 v 30 or worst.


Varience was a good idea when azrael was winning, and still is a good idea now that nilly is back in zerg status.

Red is not blue

[Gaanon]

Weekly simulated repops sounded great but it turns out they weren't hardcoded, and definitely aren't weekly.

If this isn't looked at, in my opinion, we'll bleed most of the new players we attracted.

The problem will be amplified 100X in Velious also with massive gear differences if guilds are forced to fight head to head.

We barely can hang on to 2 guilds as it is, and Az is already running on very low #'s in comparison to its competition.

Ask HB how fun it is running a #3 guild taking shit sandwiches all day and trying to snipe mobs out of a 3way confrontation, it's basically impossible.

[heartbrand]

Weekly simulated repops sounded great but it turns out they weren't hardcoded, and definitely aren't weekly.

If this isn't looked at, in my opinion, we'll bleed most of the new players we attracted.

The problem will be amplified 100X in Velious also with massive gear differences if guilds are forced to fight head to head.

We barely can hang on to 2 guilds as it is, and Az is already running on very low #'s in comparison to its competition.

Ask HB how fun it is running a #3 guild taking shit sandwiches all day and trying to snipe mobs out of a 3way confrontation, it's basically impossible.

Variance wouldn't have helped me. Hardcoded sim Repops would have.

[hivemind]

Buhbuh, thanks for actually reading a post of mine. Let me remind you that I am championing for a more competitive server. A more competitive server in general, and a more competitive server than we have now.

When we talk about Nihilum being the dominant guild now, we are not speaking in subjective terms. When you make references about changes implemented over a "long period" that weakened "Nihilum's strangle hold on the server's raid mobs" realize that there is a connotation that not only has Nihilum been the dominant guild historically (ie they have had a lack of competitors and competition), but that Nihilum has been "strangling" the server because they are so dominant. That is subjective (as all connotations are), but those are your words not mine.

I will reiterate that I think that it should be more difficult for the top guild/force/team on the server to remain the top guild/force/team on the server. This is what I am directly referring to when I say I want a more "competitive" server. I think that variance would not only make it more difficult for the top dog to remain #1, I think it would also make it a easier for smaller groups of people to kill content. Why do I think this? Because not everyone on the server will have the specific spawn timer for every end game mob--in fact, no one will have any exact timers. So yes--some mobs will get sniped **UNLESS** Nihilum is really able to do the "unnecessary poop socking" that you all are so convinced (and proud) you'll be able to do.

But is the idea of mobs being "sniped" such a bad idea? Really, that is just saying Nihilum losing a dragon and her pixels. You guys ALL (Azrael and Nihilum) seem to be begging to have a third guild, but good luck having one of those if none of your precious dragons are getting "sniped."

Seriously, get a clue.

[hivemind]

Variance wouldn't have helped me. Hardcoded sim Repops would have.

How can you say that when you are the head of a family and the third guild leader on this box? Do you have any idea the two elite boxers you were competing with ... Lite and Nizzar??? Do you think they have a family to provide for or something bro? I mean no disrespect here, to you, Lite, Nizzar, anyone... but you wanna blame everything but yourself for your guild and why it fell apart.

I've been a guild leader before, and I'm sure there are plenty of other people on this box that have as well... A guild leader leaves his guild for a number of reasons, but in the end the biggest reason is always yourself. Quit trying to blame everyone else for your guild falling apart -- simulated repops wouldn't have saved Red Dawn and they are not a good idea in general.

[iiNGloriouS]

Buhbuh, thanks for actually reading a post of mine. Let me remind you that I am championing for a more competitive server. A more competitive server in general, and a more competitive server than we have now.

When we talk about Nihilum being the dominant guild now, we are not speaking in subjective terms. When you make references about changes implemented over a "long period" that weakened "Nihilum's strangle hold on the server's raid mobs" realize that there is a connotation that not only has Nihilum been the dominant guild historically (ie they have had a lack of competitors and competition), but that Nihilum has been "strangling" the server because they are so dominant. That is subjective (as all connotations are), but those are your words not mine.

I will reiterate that I think that it should be more difficult for the top guild/force/team on the server to remain the top guild/force/team on the server. This is what I am directly referring to when I say I want a more "competitive" server. I think that variance would not only make it more difficult for the top dog to remain #1, I think it would also make it a easier for smaller groups of people to kill content. Why do I think this? Because not everyone on the server will have the specific spawn timer for every end game mob--in fact, no one will have any exact timers. So yes--some mobs will get sniped **UNLESS** Nihilum is really able to do the "unnecessary poop socking" that you all are so convinced (and proud) you'll be able to do.

But is the idea of mobs being "sniped" such a bad idea? Really, that is just saying Nihilum losing a dragon and her pixels. You guys ALL (Azrael and Nihilum) seem to be begging to have a third guild, but good luck having one of those if none of your precious dragons are getting "sniped."

Seriously, get a clue.

http://giant.gfycat.com/ThankfulFickleCaiman.gif

[Buhbuh]

When we talk about Nihilum being the dominant guild now, we are not speaking in subjective terms. When you make references about changes implemented over a "long period" that weakened "Nihilum's strangle hold on the server's raid mobs" realize that there is a connotation that not only has Nihilum been the dominant guild historically (ie they have had a lack of competitors and competition), but that Nihilum has been "strangling" the server because they are so dominant. That is subjective (as all connotations are), but those are your words not mine.

How is this long-winded nothing of a sentence even relevant? Are you arguing the semantics of what is objective and what is subjective? Who gives a shit.

This is a thread about variance, not your intellectual playground. Get fuckin' real, bro.

The reasons GMs implemented changes in the past may not have been rooted in the idea that Nihilum needs more of a challenge, but what I said was that they were changes championed by, specifically, players in the opposing guilds who could no longer compete (i.e. people wanted more of a chance to take things from Nihilum). And this lack of competition absolutely is for lack of trying. The first step to competing is being not lazy.

[Kergan]

Last thing I'll say on the topic.

We have a way to snipe raid targets already. It's called winning the battle for it.

Hivemind refuses to consider other viewpoints while simultaneously saying none of us can see things outside our own perspective. Your entire point boils down to this:


I will reiterate that I think that it should be more difficult for the top guild/force/team on the server to remain the top guild/force/team on the server.

And your idea to do this? Rally the troops and fight for it? Naw, lets add an excruciatingly boring facet to the game NOBODY wants to do and WILL drive players away. You sir should be handed your PHD in game design immediately.

Argument done gone full retard at this point.

[Colgate]

SEEK HELP

[Quiet]

Variance caters to the more dedicated guild. The guild willing to sit on a spawn throughout its entire window. A guild can sit on a spawn long enough so that the spawns are so far apart there is a different raid mob each night. Sure at first there might be some overlap, but you think Nihilum will ditch sitting on the PD/VS/CT timer in favor of chasing Faydedar or even Talendor?

Of the 2 guilds on the server, does anyone actually believe that Azrael has the dedicated base of players who will log on and sit on a spawn and not leave for hours on end, do they even have enough players to do that?

Everyone bitched for exp bonus, the bonus has allowed Nihilum to level up another 50+ characters to 60, while Azrael has probably produced 5-10 new 60s. Hell in KC tonight there was 17 players from Nihi heading towards 60 of which none were mains.

Progression had variance, you had to sit on the spawn and wait up to 24 hours, don't leave your computer, don't walk away for a drink, don't go to the bathroom, cause mob might spawn and its over. Of the 2 guilds, who's style does that really suit better?

Lite just throwing out the desperation challenges because he poked the bee hive and the swarm finally came. Nothing that can be done now for Azrael except hope for lower end targets in velious or win via training / shady tactics. Because when Velious drops and Nihilum is rolling 80-100 + with alts at the ready, they will be able to easily split raid the lower end stuff and steam roll ToV, creating a gear gap so big that it will be like the old days of Tallon Zek when a 3-6 pandemonium members could wreck 2 groups of anyone else.

[Danien]

In games such as Everquest the normal case is that one force is going to be substantially stronger than their competitors due to how easy it is to monopolize content. Most people who play MMO's are interested in character development and when that is completely shut down for them the vast majority will quit.

I feel like automated simulated repops every 5-10 days would be a lot more important then variance. Variance adds a new mechanic where the best option to compete for end game content is to sit idle and do nothing for an extended period of time. The main way this could potentially reward lesser parties is that the dominant guild get so bored with sitting around that they choose not to do this. I can't imagine that it's going to be easier to motivate a large group of people who are most likely going to lose to perform this same taxing task in hopes of sniping a mob. Given a period of limited success I feel like the will to compete is going to fizzle out and all you've accomplished is introducing another tedious element to the game.

Simulated repops on the other hand will offer a chance for people to compete while still playing the game of Everquest (You know, killing mobs/people and what not) given how extremely hard it would be for a guild to lock down ALL content given that the server is still in a somewhat healthy state. In theory this allows the dominant force to still pick and choose what they want and get the lions share of the loot while still allowing other forces to get something out of it and giving them a reason to stick around in hopes of getting more.

[Youlath]

In games such as Everquest the normal case is that one force is going to be substantially stronger than their competitors due to how easy it is to monopolize content. Most people who play MMO's are interested in character development and when that is completely shut down for them the vast majority will quit.

I feel like automated simulated repops every 5-10 days would be a lot more important then variance. Variance adds a new mechanic where the best option to compete for end game content is to sit idle and do nothing for an extended period of time. The main way this could potentially reward lesser parties is that the dominant guild get so bored with sitting around that they choose not to do this. I can't imagine that it's going to be easier to motivate a large group of people who are most likely going to lose to perform this same taxing task in hopes of sniping a mob. Given a period of limited success I feel like the will to compete is going to fizzle out and all you've accomplished is introducing another tedious element to the game.

Simulated repops on the other hand will offer a chance for people to compete while still playing the game of Everquest (You know, killing mobs/people and what not) given how extremely hard it would be for a guild to lock down ALL content given that the server is still in a somewhat healthy state. In theory this allows the dominant force to still pick and choose what they want and get the lions share of the loot while still allowing other forces to get something out of it and giving them a reason to stick around in hopes of getting more.

goog post

[Barladore]

Everything Hivemind has said is 100% spot on..

As far as the variance vs sim repops goes: Variance creates pvp over the targets where sim repops is often just a trade off.

For example; nihilum goes for VS/inny so az goes for CT/VP. Why risk pvping over something and blowing your chance at everything, when you can pick up more loot by avoiding pvp? Sim repops actually discourages pvp.

Variance promotes pvp both when the mob spawns and when trackers are trying to hold the camp. Will nihilum hold all the camps? fuck no. Sure they will hold most, but at the very minimum there will be constant pvp and jockeying for track camps. People have mentioned how camping those spots is boring? No its not, not in seb, fear, hate or KC. Groups will camp items/exp there and track at the same time. This isnt blue where you can leave a lvl 30 ranger alone to track, he will need major blackup. What variance does is it gives smaller crews a reason to go try and wipe them. You want to know why azrael hasnt been logging in? Because a simple YT isnt worth forming a group to go into KC or seb anymore.

Variance gives added incentive to pvp in small numbers. It gives incentive for people to log in and pvp or hold down an exp camp even at level 60 (more importantly).

Add variance and change the pvp range back to +8/-8

Why not try it for a month?

[R Flair]

Why not try playing on blue?

[Barladore]

lol blue, would not play for minimum wage.

[R Flair]

I'm gonna elbow drop this stupidity right in the face...

You're asking in no uncertain terms to remove the element of competition via mass pvp from the game of EverQuest.

Get out of the ring and go play blue you nancy boy.

[Barladore]

There is no competition when one team can bring 60+. You are brain-dead and likely a new player that went straight into the nihilum app process. The very definition of a "nancy boy" on red.

"Wooo"

[Buhbuh]

so basically what you're saying is you're a guild that claims to be pvp oriented but wont login for pvp unless an incentive is involved because pvp isn't fun for you unless pixels are at stake.

[Danien]

Everything Hivemind has said is 100% spot on..

As far as the variance vs sim repops goes: Variance creates pvp over the targets where sim repops is often just a trade off.

For example; nihilum goes for VS/inny so az goes for CT/VP. Why risk pvping over something and blowing your chance at everything, when you can pick up more loot by avoiding pvp? Sim repops actually discourages pvp.

Variance promotes pvp both when the mob spawns and when trackers are trying to hold the camp. Will nihilum hold all the camps? fuck no. Sure they will hold most, but at the very minimum there will be constant pvp and jockeying for track camps. People have mentioned how camping those spots is boring? No its not, not in seb, fear, hate or KC. Groups will camp items/exp there and track at the same time. This isnt blue where you can leave a lvl 30 ranger alone to track, he will need major blackup. What variance does is it gives smaller crews a reason to go try and wipe them. You want to know why azrael hasnt been logging in? Because a simple YT isnt worth forming a group to go into KC or seb anymore.

Variance gives added incentive to pvp in small numbers. It gives incentive for people to log in and pvp or hold down an exp camp even at level 60 (more importantly).

Add variance and change the pvp range back to +8/-8

Why not try it for a month?

Variance absolutely increase the amount of trade offs, if not for trade offs multiple strong sides probably wont co-exist for long. But it will also very often lead to pvp as well, just not for every mob during a repop. This is what makes it great, it's the best of both worlds.

[Barladore]

so basically what you're saying is you're a guild that claims to be pvp oriented but wont login for pvp unless an incentive is involved because pvp isn't fun for you unless pixels are at stake.

No I'm saying why not further incentivize small-scale PvP? You've already said you support variance.. What do you like about it there Cyren?

[iiNGloriouS]

I like how half these people who were swinging from the GreatJews balls a few months ago were FOR variance, now that they've tagged Nilly; they think its literally worse than Hitler.

Ach mench.

[R Flair]

There is no competition when one team can bring 60+. You are brain-dead and likely a new player that went straight into the nihilum app process. The very definition of a "nancy boy" on red.

"Wooo"

You mean after your team with equal or greater numbers was thrown out of the ring a few times and decided to whine and protest driving even more players to the other side?

This is a royal rumble son, not your junior varsity qualifiers where you begged the ref to postpone the match until your mommy arrived.

http://photos1.blogger.com/img/198/4480/400/ric%20flair%20woo.jpg

[Danien]

Variance promotes pvp both when the mob spawns and when trackers are trying to hold the camp. Will nihilum hold all the camps? fuck no. Sure they will hold most, but at the very minimum there will be constant pvp and jockeying for track camps. People have mentioned how camping those spots is boring? No its not, not in seb, fear, hate or KC. Groups will camp items/exp there and track at the same time. This isnt blue where you can leave a lvl 30 ranger alone to track, he will need major blackup. What variance does is it gives smaller crews a reason to go try and wipe them. You want to know why azrael hasnt been logging in? Because a simple YT isnt worth forming a group to go into KC or seb anymore.


Also I have to say it's incredibly optimistic to say people will need major backup to keep trackbots. It's SO much easier to maintain a trackbot of some sort as compared to shutting it down, especially since most raid zones doesn't even have a level range.

[Barladore]

46+ for planes already and remove level range for kc/seb/vp problem solved.

[Bazia]

Just keep the system where the guild with 60-80 players makes it impossible for anyone else to compete.

Ain't broke don't fix it.

[Danien]

46+ for planes already and remove level range for kc/seb/vp problem solved.

What about TD/DL/Skyfire etc?

I'll argue that this doesn't even work for kunark, much less velious when its released. Not to mention your suggestion screws over anyone not in the raid scene.

[Buhbuh]

I like it mostly for the potential of skirmish PvP (not so much from you guys, but in the future when another potential guild is on the rise). I do honestly think most of you Azrael folks are kind of arguing for it the wrong way, though. It's always presented in a way that pertains to your guild's current interest in the game, or Nihilum's overwhelming numbers, which they really can't be blamed for, as much as people may want to.

I don't honestly think it will create more competition on any realistic level. Azrael will have a second-wind, certainly, but Nihilum will still get the same amount they get now. You'll just be interested in the game for a little longer until Lite and the people who look up to him lose a few times and become defeatist about server as a whole again. But at least you'll be online - and that's good, not really for the server, but definitely from my perspective as someone actively PvPing you. You guys may want to ask yourselves if you've got the will or the playtime to really see something like this through.

It only took three weeks this time for Lite to sit back and reflect and then rip his guild quite literally in half (back to what it was). That's pretty bad, dude.

The Azrael 19.0 jokes are widely known for a reason. You guys get these sugar rushes and then wane super quickly.

From a pure PvP standpoint, I like it. But you also gotta recognize that with simulated repops in Velious, Nihilum won't be able to control everything. I don't even think they'll want to. There will be potential for newer guilds to gear up with velious questing and kunark dragons. But if you want to face facts, unless something insane happens on this server, Nihilum will be pulling ahead by a large degree and variance will not matter very much. For the very near future, maybe it will help. Probably not, though. You guys have like 4 non US players. Nihilum has a full European crew.

I don't know. I don't care. Just beat it into the ground until it happens, I guess. Seems to work.

[heartbrand]

Everything that's happening now is what I tried to tell people for months in red dawn. Oh well, lookin forward to uncontested pixels in velious under the dukes guidance. May his benevolent reign last an eternity.

[Goobles]

Bring back simulated repops.

[LostCause]

PRAS THE DUKE

[Pudge]

Without reading the majority of this thread, my suggestion is this: GMs, just *try* it. Try making a FEW spawns (not all of them) variable and see what happens to those mobs/in that area. Suggestions include VS, innoruk, trakanon, 1 of either gore/tal/sev/fay, and maybe a VP mob. So put variance in on like 4 mobs and see what happens.. this is the pvp server and it's about having fun pvp. We are more free to experiment with things than blue so we should take advantage of that.

PS I hope GMs will actually read this since it's so far into the thread already

[Doors]

Variance is fucking horrible the majority of people including Lite in this thread have never played blue.

[Gaffin 7.0]

sup doors how r u

[Gaanon]

Variance is fucking horrible the majority of people including Lite in this thread have never played blue.

The idea is you can lock down more chances for the mob through PVP unlike blue where a bunch of people stand around for FTE.

Why are people so stupid it blows my mind, does this kid even play - I hope he isn't Az...

[Gaanon]

I like it mostly for the potential of skirmish PvP (not so much from you guys, but in the future when another potential guild is on the rise). I do honestly think most of you Azrael folks are kind of arguing for it the wrong way, though. It's always presented in a way that pertains to your guild's current interest in the game, or Nihilum's overwhelming numbers, which they really can't be blamed for, as much as people may want to.

I don't honestly think it will create more competition on any realistic level. Azrael will have a second-wind, certainly, but Nihilum will still get the same amount they get now. You'll just be interested in the game for a little longer until Lite and the people who look up to him lose a few times and become defeatist about server as a whole again. But at least you'll be online - and that's good, not really for the server, but definitely from my perspective as someone actively PvPing you. You guys may want to ask yourselves if you've got the will or the playtime to really see something like this through.

It only took three weeks this time for Lite to sit back and reflect and then rip his guild quite literally in half (back to what it was). That's pretty bad, dude.

The Azrael 19.0 jokes are widely known for a reason. You guys get these sugar rushes and then wane super quickly.

From a pure PvP standpoint, I like it. But you also gotta recognize that with simulated repops in Velious, Nihilum won't be able to control everything. I don't even think they'll want to. There will be potential for newer guilds to gear up with velious questing and kunark dragons. But if you want to face facts, unless something insane happens on this server, Nihilum will be pulling ahead by a large degree and variance will not matter very much. For the very near future, maybe it will help. Probably not, though. You guys have like 4 non US players. Nihilum has a full European crew.

I don't know. I don't care. Just beat it into the ground until it happens, I guess. Seems to work.

Nihilum stopped logging in after a few beatings till Nizzar came back, this sounds like petty Lite drama like usual.

Edit - to be fair I couldn't read half the shit you wrote blah blah blah blabbity blah.

[heartbrand]

Variance doesn't help small guilds thrive. Sim Repops that occur 2-4 times a month and reset timers help small guilds. When small guilds have a chance at any given mob on a repop people will stop flocking to one guild for pixels. It's pretty simple and it's classic. Variance just feeds into zergs even more. It's great for me because I'll be able to stockpile dkp during work AFK at spawns on tracker alts or scout alts, but it's terrible for everyone else.

[Gaanon]

I think it'd be nice to have PVP that isn't scheduled, everyone with assist keys golem wands, 40 players where people disintegrate etc.

Fuck helping whoever, this PVP is boring, stagnant and it's the only kind we have currently with this system.

I predict 50+ Nihi in Phara Dar room on Sunday at his exact spawn time, wanna take some bets HB?

[Barladore]

Can't you stockpile dkp while afk on raids now? Way too many people in that raid force to tell the difference.

[heartbrand]

You haven't answered how variance will help small guilds thrive tho. A guild of 20 people won't have the people to track and take advantage of variance.

[Doors]

The idea is you can lock down more chances for the mob through PVP unlike blue where a bunch of people stand around for FTE.

Why are people so stupid it blows my mind, does this kid even play - I hope he isn't Az...

Because FTE on blue was the only problem with variance. They're not going to put this garbage in. They just got rid of it on blue. The devs get a break by not having another system in place to monitor.

[Gaanon]

You haven't answered how variance will help small guilds thrive tho. A guild of 20 people won't have the people to track and take advantage of variance.

I wasn't implying it will "help" them. It means you can PVP throughout the day and kill those trackers if you're motivated to get a mob, you can have better odds at different hours, you can respond faster, you can get lucky.

I am saying it opens up a lot more criteria for locking down all content other than showing up at a specific time on the weekend and listening to some french asshole tell you what buttons to press when.

[Supaskillz]

Want to win? Get all the players

[Gaanon]

Because FTE on blue was the only problem with variance. They're not going to put this garbage in. They just got rid of it on blue. The devs get a break by not having another system in place to monitor.

Why would they need to monitor it? Couldn't it just be Derubael monitoring progress/how things work considering I am hoping this is his hobby to run a PVP emu server that could potentially attract thousands if ran properly not just to enable the few neckbeards who benefit?

[Littlegyno 11.0]

Why would they need to monitor it? Couldn't it just be Derubael monitoring progress/how things work considering I am hoping this is his hobby to run a PVP emu server that could potentially attract thousands if ran properly not just to enable the few neckbeards who benefit?

attract thousands LOL.

jesus ***** u dumber than a bag of retards

[Barladore]

You haven't answered how variance will help small guilds thrive tho. A guild of 20 people won't have the people to track and take advantage of variance.

Depends on your definition of thrive. At the very minimum it will give them a chance at one spawn, they'll be able to keep one tracking location locked down. Currently Nihilum knows every spawn time and will bring a force too big for that 20 to compete with. Better to give them a shot at one then no shot at every one.

And before you say it: Rogean does not care/have the time/forgot to do sim repops every week. Variance just puts a system in place that does that job for him, just differently (I'm still a big supporter of Sim repops as well).

Personally, I'm just looking for more day to day pvp, I don't play much on weekends.

[Rexxin]

Why does there always have to be a reason....

Play or Don't Play

[Supreme]

Fucking Saban rule.

Must have variance for the safety of the players to pvp.

[Mac Drettj]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lps76r3f341r00k3po1_400.gif

[R Flair]

On this forum, 1 + 1 does not equal 2.

Forcing guilds to sit and track for raid encounters does not, under any circumstances, beget pvp. More than likely it means 1 guild knows about a spawn with more than enough time to assemble and clear it completely uncontested. It can therefore be assumed that this variance thing is nothing but a complete troll to punish the current top guild instead of competing guilds making the effort to build and contest content the way it was meant to be.

[Mac Drettj]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/569/721/4d8.gif

[Gaanon]

attract thousands LOL.

jesus ***** u dumber than a bag of retards

I have a dream nig nog.

[hivemind]

ITT: Nihilum members still arguing that variance will do nothing to change the course of the server. They are too convinced that regardless of whatever changes the staff will implement, Nihilum will come out on top. Not even going to quote people this time since I would literally have to quote half the people in the thread.

TRY TO KEEP IN MIND that if you are in Nihilum, you would likely not prefer a change of no-variance to variance because it would then require more efforts (or, "unnecessary poop socking" as some of your members have so eloquently put it) for your guild to acquire the same amount of loot that you currently do. You see, with the current system there is typically one or one-day worth of mass pvp that dictates roughly an entire week's worth of loot.

So it is very easy to understand why anyone in Nihilum would be opposed to that. You guys frame it with different perspectives, perhaps focusing on Lite's ineptitude as a leader... his inability to recruit people, or lead them, or whatever. But again, this is not about Lite, this is not about Nizzar... this thread is not about Azrael or Nihilum. This thread is about variance and how it will make the server more competitive.

It should be harder for the more dominant guild to remain the dominant guild. It should require more effort for the dominant guild to acquire as much loot as they are, and a variance system will undoubtedly deliver on these two fronts. No one is saying that with a variance system Nihilum won't still be top... you all are convinced of it so I really have a hard time seeing why you are so against variance. (Not really--it really just represents your uncertainty that you will still be able to be so dominant after a massive change like variance).

More competition is more fun. Don't be so scared about changes that might usurp some of the power away... And let me remind everyone once again about how desperate ALL of you are for a third guild. Never going to happen without variance.

And if I hear Heartbrand start QQ'ing one more time about how his guild fell apart because of a lack of constant simulated repops, I'll name my morning dump after him. Guy is about as delusional as the rest of the posters in this thread.

[Buhbuh]

The reality is that these types of guilds have always emerged and controlled the majority of raid mobs in Everquest. It's true for almost every single server.

This is absolutely about Nihilum and Azrael. You're asking for variance based on the strength of a current guild on the server. How is that not about about guilds on the server?

I told you, do not go this route.

How do you not see that most of these posts stem from Azrael players and their inability to contest in a meaningful way?

I think you're the only one not clearly in Azrael requesting variance, and you're a brand new lvl 24 bard or some shit (yes, that discredits you).

Stasis, you're a joke here. Dacbane's disease.

[Gaanon]

I never made the thread I'm done caring one way or the other too much Velious will add a lot of content, but it would be nice to have several competing guilds instead of everyone bitching out worried about Velious loot joining the same one.

[hivemind]

This is absolutely about Nihilum and Azrael. You're asking for variance based on the strength of a current guild on the server. How is that not about about guilds on the server?

This seems to be a sticking point for you, and I can understand that. I am sure you are not the only one. From my first post in this thread, I have been championing for a more competitive server. What I mean by a "more competitive server" is a server where the top guild/team/faction has a harder time maintaining #1. What do I mean by a top guild/team/faction? What do I mean by maintaining #1? I mean the guild who is killing the most dragons, ie getting the most loot. On a more competitive server, it would be more difficult for the top guild to get as much loot (ie to kill as many dragons and maintain #1).

None of that is subjective or Nihilum/Azrael related. I am just telling you what I mean when I use words like "competition," "competitive," "#1," "top guild/team/faction." In a very general sense I would like this server to be more competitive (and in a slightly more specific sense I would like to see more than two guilds contesting all the content). When we apply that general model of wanting a more competitive server to our specific red99 box, we can see first hand who is currently the dominant guild (Nihilum, in case you were confused), and we can see their only competition -- Azrael.

So in the case of implementing variance on red99, yes-- there would be a desire to make it more difficult for Nihilum specifically (the current dominant guild) to remain the current dominant guild, ie make it more difficult for them to continue acquiring as much loot as they are currently doing. In order to do so, they would **necessarily** have to expend more efforts to accomplish the "unnecessary poopsocking" that you all are so convinced you'll be able to do.

So while implementing variance would undoubtedly make it more difficult for Nihilum to remain #1 (unless they are the poopsock masterminds which we are all convinced you are), my desire to implement variance is wholly to make the server more competitive **IN GENERAL**. But you are absolutely right in understanding that Nihilum is currently the dominant guild and they would have the most to lose right now if variance was implemented. Not that it matters so much (and not that it hasn't already been stated multiple times...) but Lite was pro-variance during the short stint that his guild was top dog, ie killing the majority of the raid targets. That is not to say that Azrael would not have suffered a loss of power at that point (or at least had to expend more "unnecessary" efforts to acquire the same amount of loot) ... I am pretty sure that Lite (or anyone who is in a dominant guild at the time) understands that implementing variance will take away some power from their guild. This is a necessary part of balance...

[Zereh]

I'm pretty confident that whatever contrived restraints you try to place on the "top guild" that top guild will figure out a way to remain exactly where they've always been.

[mikemandella]

I'm pretty confident that whatever contrived restraints you try to place on the "top guild" that top guild will figure out a way to remain exactly where they've always been.

"A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid.”

- Oppressor

[hivemind]

ITT: Nihilum members still arguing that variance will do nothing to change the course of the server. They are too convinced that regardless of whatever changes the staff will implement, Nihilum will come out on top. Not even going to quote people this time since I would literally have to quote half the people in the thread.


Forgive me, for I have quoted.


I'm pretty confident that whatever contrived restraints you try to place on the "top guild" that top guild will figure out a way to remain exactly where they've always been.

[hivemind]

ITT: Nihilum members still arguing that variance will do nothing to change the course of the server. They are too convinced that regardless of whatever changes the staff will implement, Nihilum will come out on top. Not even going to quote people this time since I would literally have to quote half the people in the thread.

Forgive me, for I have quoted:


I don't honestly think it will create more competition on any realistic level. Azrael will have a second-wind, certainly, but Nihilum will still get the same amount they get now.

[hivemind]

ITT: Nihilum members still arguing that variance will do nothing to change the course of the server. They are too convinced that regardless of whatever changes the staff will implement, Nihilum will come out on top. Not even going to quote people this time since I would literally have to quote half the people in the thread.

Forgive me, for I have quoted:

Variance doesn't help small guilds thrive. Variance just feeds into zergs even more. It's great for me because I'll be able to stockpile dkp during work AFK at spawns on tracker alts or scout alts, but it's terrible for everyone else.

[heartbrand]

If you want there to be multiple guilds, then people need to feel as though they can advance their characters in a meaningful way in one of the smaller guilds. Variance won't allow them to do so. Smaller guilds tend to be more casual, and I can't imagine 20 people sitting at Trakanon for twelve hours uncontested waiting for it to pop. Variance, if you knew how it works, will result in people just poopsocking the mobs whose windows are open for bonus dkp.

Where is this magical pvp coming from? You're going to kill some level 10 ranger hidden in a corner in seb or something? You gonna kill the level 1 ranger in VP behind 100 mobs who logs in for 30 seconds? Sounds like amazing pvp.

Sim Repops allow small guilds to thrive and snipe targets, progress their characters, and then cuts down on the desire of everyone to join one guild. Alliances form, tons of pvp, etc. It ain't rocket science and it's classic, what a shock. I kind of hope they do put variance in tho, so that five azrael can sit at talendor for twenty hours for a shot at a selo drum only to be steam rolled within ten minutes by 50 brave dukesmen logging on their talendor alts within moments of the bat phone.

[hivemind]

ITT: Nihilum members still arguing that variance will do nothing to change the course of the server. They are too convinced that regardless of whatever changes the staff will implement, Nihilum will come out on top. Not even going to quote people this time since I would literally have to quote half the people in the thread.

Forgive me, for I have quoted (a seemingly extremely bitter ex-Azrael):

Variance caters to the more dedicated guild. The guild willing to sit on a spawn throughout its entire window.

Of the 2 guilds on the server, does anyone actually believe that Azrael has the dedicated base of players who will log on and sit on a spawn and not leave for hours on end, do they even have enough players to do that?

Nothing that can be done now for Azrael except hope for lower end targets in velious or win via training / shady tactics. Because when Velious drops and Nihilum is rolling 80-100 + with alts at the ready, they will be able to easily split raid the lower end stuff and steam roll ToV, creating a gear gap so big that it will be like the old days of Tallon Zek when a 3-6 pandemonium members could wreck 2 groups of anyone else.

[hivemind]

ITT: Nihilum members still arguing that variance will do nothing to change the course of the server. They are too convinced that regardless of whatever changes the staff will implement, Nihilum will come out on top. Not even going to quote people this time since I would literally have to quote half the people in the thread.

Forgive me, for I have quoted:

Why add unnecessary time sinks to a game that already makes you grind for everything else? Seriously... Do you really think Azrael is going to be the ones to come up on variance mobs?? They already are 90% offline 6 days a week lol i'm sure just the thing that will get them back in the game is a day of poop-socking.

[Mac Drettj]

The only way variance helps a small guild is if someone in that small guild has a Private Tunnel army of 5-10 bots at every spot

Jahfeel?

Hope hivenerd quotes this in his octaragepost

[heartbrand]

Variance basically destroys azraels one so called advantage, pvp, by turning the game into a contest of who can mobilize faster and better. A contest nihilum will win the vast majority of the time. You guys think you're going to see Trakanon on track and suddenly sneak 25 azrael there who answer the bat phone without 50 dukesmen logging on for triple dkp bonus? Holy fuck you people are dumb. Variance is great for me because it's far easier for me to log on for five minutes multiple times a week for a mob at a time than it is for an entire fucking day on the weekend, and yet I still think it's dumb as fuck.

Having said that, there are intriguing completely custom ways you could go which I believe would fix a lot of issues, but will never happen, such as staggered Repops with global text an hour before they pop. You get complete unknown variance but global text so no poopsocking. Gives you something to fight over every day. Shrug.

[heartbrand]

The only way variance helps a small guild is if someone in that small guild has a Private Tunnel army of 5-10 bots at every spot

Jahfeel?

Hope hivenerd quotes this in his octaragepost

You talkin shit on the coach?

[hivemind]

ITT: Nihilum members still arguing that variance will do nothing to change the course of the server. They are too convinced that regardless of whatever changes the staff will implement, Nihilum will come out on top. Not even going to quote people this time since I would literally have to quote half the people in the thread.


Forgive me, for I have quoted:


As the underdog you are going to be out tracked and lose out.

As the server leaders your life is going to be hell until you have enough guild trackers to simply rotate through. After that it's going to be an inconvenience but not insurmountable.

[lite]

Where is this magical pvp coming from? You're going to kill some level 10 ranger hidden in a corner in seb or something? You gonna kill the level 1 ranger in VP behind 100 mobs who logs in for 30 seconds? Sounds like fun pvp.


Where exactly are you planning to park these toons whrre I couldnt figure out their placement within 2 30 second track ssessions? I am sorry you spent too much time at the zoneline as a tank class. The shit you are attempting to make seem as difficult is actually very trivial.100mobs ? Vp agroo range Iis tiny and most shit doesnt see invis. No offense but you dont have the exposure to understand how easy these track bots would get destroyed on a pvp server. To keep track of mobs you will need a presence that will get pvpd. If you still think you can successfully hide these toons go for it and I will show you how ineffective they are.

[Gaanon]

I'm pretty confident that whatever contrived restraints you try to place on the "top guild" that top guild will figure out a way to remain exactly where they've always been.

I just look at evidence, like how many guilds have successfully contested on Red99, one.

How many guilds were just absorbed because they can't do anything on their own, TONS.

[Nirgon]

Did Rogean do the 42 day repop during prime time? Oh? Hm.

[lite]

I'm pretty confident that whatever contrived restraints you try to place on the "top guild" that top guild will figure out a way to remain exactly where they've always been.

Not sure how many times it has to be said. Everyone is ok with nihilum having the top spot. They are the most devoted. Variance is meant to enable a playstyle other than biggest guild takes all.

[Feniggles]

I think it'd be nice to have PVP that isn't scheduled, everyone with assist keys golem wands, 40 players where people disintegrate etc.

Fuck helping whoever, this PVP is boring, stagnant and it's the only kind we have currently with this system.

I predict 50+ Nihi in Phara Dar room on Sunday at his exact spawn time, wanna take some bets HB?

thats alright just train us again

[heartbrand]

Where exactly are you planning to park these toons whrre I couldnt figure out their placement within 2 30 second track ssessions? I am sorry you spent too much time at the zoneline as a tank class. The shit you are attempting to make seem as difficult is actually very trivial.100mobs ? Vp agroo range Iis tiny and most shit doesnt see invis. No offense but you dont have the exposure to understand how easy these track bots would get destroyed on a pvp server. To keep track of mobs you will need a presence that will get pvpd. If you still think you can successfully hide these toons go for it and I will show you how ineffective they are.

You realize that you only need to login the tracker bot every hour or two for thirty seconds right? Holy fuck a lot of dumb people on the boards today. Also lol at my exposure. I played here at release with 600 players, when you had to constantly sell your shit and buy gems to not lose everything after being coined. You rolled here when it was already dead box. I know VP. I know that I can park ranger bots that I can easily camp out in thirty seconds. And if I can't? Oh well call LNS and camp out in zone for an hour per Sirken rule and log right back in again with literally nothing lost. Sounds like incredibly thrilling pvp at its best.

[BeautBabeC]

Naw lets let the same couple of leaders in nihilum recruit all the weak minded. Hopefully everyone else will quit soon that'll probably be for the best. Lets keep living the same cycle of success instead of trying something new

[heartbrand]

Naw lets let the same couple of leaders in nihilum recruit all the weak minded. Hopefully everyone else will quit soon that'll probably be for the best. Lets keep living the same cycle of success instead of trying something new

Weak minded? What do you expect fresh blood on this server to do? Why would they join a guild that repeatedly goes on hiatus, does nothing to help new blood, constantly is in flux, trolls ooc and forums hard as fuck, etc.? You guys refuse to accept that azrael is not a guild that is inviting to new players here. It has nothing to do with being weak minded. People just don't want to play with you.

[Nirgon]

I know VP.

[Feniggles]

Weak minded? What do you expect fresh blood on this server to do? Why would they join a guild that repeatedly goes on hiatus, does nothing to help new blood, constantly is in flux, trolls ooc and forums hard as fuck, etc.? You guys refuse to accept that azrael is not a guild that is inviting to new players here. It has nothing to do with being weak minded. People just don't want to play with you.

spot on

[BeautBabeC]

I'm not in Azrael. Sorry you are right, they are not weak minded. I get frustrated because I expect everyone playing wants to play the same way as me when in reality all Nihilum members want to play Everquest a completely different way then I do. My bad didn't mean to insult.

I'll never understand having over whelming numbers and no competition because I actually couldn't care less about loot except for the fact that it helps you win fights.

I think what people posting in this thread need to realize is that a lot of us want to see the server pan out differently because its more how we would enjoy the game, where as Nihilum likes the server this way because that's what they enjoy. You can't really get pissed at some one because they want the server more catered to them and there friends. It's really up to the box owner to decide how he wants his server to run, you can't blame a guy for thinking it might be a more popular box or populated box if things were a bit different.

[BeautBabeC]

And you are wrong its not that they don't want to play with me. If I was in Nihilum they would be wanting to play with me? And joining is just an application away for anyone

[lite]

You realize that you only need to login the tracker bot every hour or two for thirty seconds right? I know VP. I know that I can park ranger bots that I can easily camp out in thirty seconds.

after you pop in once or twice we will know exactly where this toon is parked and be waiting for you. dont need 30 seconds... what ? you think you will be able to just keep moving the toon around each time, how many spots do you think a lvl 10 can sit at safely in vp with PD track radius ? lol. You play a warrior in VP, you have limited exposure, it's not your fault.


And if I can't? Oh well call LNS and camp out in zone for an hour per Sirken rule and log right back in again with literally nothing lost. Sounds like incredibly thrilling pvp at its best.

and then the Phara dar spawns during the LNS hour, sweet :) sounds like a sound tactic. or once the LNS hour is up for your level 10 ranger what do you do ... run him back through skyfire and zone him to VP where Azrael is waiting ? lowbie trackers are not a viable option in FFA zones with 15 year old maps that people know like the back of their hands ... these super sweet haxor spots that you think only you can think of, sorry, they are common knowledge.

[Feniggles]

after you pop in once or twice we will know exactly where this toon is parked and be waiting for you. dont need 30 seconds... what ? you think you will be able to just keep moving the toon around each time, how many spots do you think a lvl 10 can sit at safely in vp with PD track radius ? lol. You play a warrior in VP, you have limited exposure, it's not your fault.




and then the Phara dar spawns during the LNS hour, sweet :) sounds like a sound tactic. or once the LNS hour is up for your level 10 ranger what do you do ... run him back through skyfire and zone him to VP where Azrael is waiting ? lowbie trackers are not a viable option in FFA zones with 15 year old maps that people know like the back of their hands ... these super sweet haxor spots that you think only you can think of, sorry, they are common knowledge.

move on, varience never happening. we all want to see what you whine about next. my guess is youwill cry guilds should be hard capped at 30 people.

[r00t]

heres the equation for variance

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110907160736/whatilearned/images/9/98/Equation_for_sample_variance.png

where x is the sample mean and n-1 is the degree of freedom

[hivemind]

heres the equation for variance

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110907160736/whatilearned/images/9/98/Equation_for_sample_variance.png

where x is the sample mean and n-1 is the degree of freedom

One of the few intelligent posts in this thread.


You realize that you only need to login the tracker bot every hour or two for thirty seconds right? Holy fuck a lot of dumb people on the boards today. I know VP. I know that I can park ranger bots that I can easily camp out in thirty seconds. And if I can't? Oh well call LNS and camp out in zone for an hour per Sirken rule and log right back in again with literally nothing lost. Sounds like incredibly thrilling pvp at its best.

One of the many unintelligent posts in this thread.


ITT: Nihilum members still arguing that variance will do nothing to change the course of the server. They are too convinced that regardless of whatever changes the staff will implement, Nihilum will come out on top.

Heartbrand... what an elegant and simple solution to the implementation of variance for Nihilum. Just VP-key up a few level 10 rangers, and after you've done that ... well, it's still easy street from there. All you have to do is park them in VP and just log them on for 30 seconds each every hour. What is the point of a variance system when you have provided such a simple, yet elegant solution that is both fail-safe and uncounterable.

It's funny trying to see people from Nihilum argue over, and over, and over again that there is nothing that the staff or Azrael could do to bring Nihilum down from #1. News flash: your reading comprehension skills are still at an all time low. This thread is about increasing the general competitiveness of the server, so stop referring to things in terms of Azrael or Nihilum, whatever the particular strengths or weaknesses those guilds or their leaders/members might have.

The GMs/staff here do not care what the guild name of the top guild is on the server. I am sure they care about balance though, and balance in the context of this server has a lot to do with the competitive nature of the end game. And to make the server more competitive in a general sense, there needs to be changes that make it harder for the dominant guild to remain dominant. I have stated this in more explicit and precise language in previous posts, so I won't bother repeating myself again here.

Everyone can understand why people in Nihilum would argue against variance... variance will force Nihilum to conduct the "unnecessary poopsocking" required in order to continue to get as much loot as they do currently. Nihilum happens to be the dominant guild right now (and they happen to have been the dominant guild for majority of the server's history), but as precious as your pixels may be... try to understand this change in the context of a pvp server... not red99 specifically.

So much bias, so little objectivism.

[Barladore]

Gotta love this hivemind telling it like it is.

Fennigles you ignorant as fuck - pixels infected the biran.

[Feniggles]

Gotta love this hivemind telling it like it is.

Fennigles you ignorant as fuck - pixels infected the biran.

i haz no pixels.

[Buhbuh]

i'm sure it will get pushed through eventually. the people posting for it in this thread are far more vocal and persistent on the boards. it doesn't really matter if it's good or not at this point. with enough lite, stasis and andis posts, it's going to happen whether anyone likes it or not.

they have the forumquesters to overwhelm and make it seem like the majority of the server is for shit even when that may not be the case. you can blame people not on the boards for that, i suppose, but regardless, it'll probably happen at some point.

[Ames who?]

One of the few intelligent posts in this thread.




One of the many unintelligent posts in this thread.




Heartbrand... what an elegant and simple solution to the implementation of variance for Nihilum. Just VP-key up a few level 10 rangers, and after you've done that ... well, it's still easy street from there. All you have to do is park them in VP and just log them on for 30 seconds each every hour. What is the point of a variance system when you have provided such a simple, yet elegant solution that is both fail-safe and uncounterable.

It's funny trying to see people from Nihilum argue over, and over, and over again that there is nothing that the staff or Azrael could do to bring Nihilum down from #1. News flash: your reading comprehension skills are still at an all time low. This thread is about increasing the general competitiveness of the server, so stop referring to things in terms of Azrael or Nihilum, whatever the particular strengths or weaknesses those guilds or their leaders/members might have.

The GMs/staff here do not care what the guild name of the top guild is on the server. I am sure they care about balance though, and balance in the context of this server has a lot to do with the competitive nature of the end game. And to make the server more competitive in a general sense, there needs to be changes that make it harder for the dominant guild to remain dominant. I have stated this in more explicit and precise language in previous posts, so I won't bother repeating myself again here.

Everyone can understand why people in Nihilum would argue against variance... variance will force Nihilum to conduct the "unnecessary poopsocking" required in order to continue to get as much loot as they do currently. Nihilum happens to be the dominant guild right now (and they happen to have been the dominant guild for majority of the server's history), but as precious as your pixels may be... try to understand this change in the context of a pvp server... not red99 specifically.

So much bias, so little objectivism.

what the fuck

[Not_Kazowi]

People need to just play the game and stop turning elf quest into reindeer games

[Nirgon]

Need more pixels to drop for people to throw their money away.

[Colgate]

People need to just play the game and stop turning elf quest into reindeer games

reindeer games 1000x more entertaining than 15 year old elf sim

[Nirgon]

Wise words

[Zuranthium]

my guess is you will cry guilds should be hard capped at 30 people.

The game would be much better if guilds were hard capped, epic encounters were hard cap, and respawns were quicker. Plus more of a reward for PvP, so that it's not just about contesting PvE content.

[Telron]

If Azrael would just continue to bring their 50 against Nihilums 50 we could all have fun. The only time it got boring is was when you stopped showing up to contest. Too bad.

[Colgate]

yeah, too bad summer happened and more nihilum decided to spend every saturday indoor again

[Littlegyno 11.0]

yeah, too bad summer happened and more nihilum decided to spend every saturday indoor again

said the same when we stopped playing for diablo 3.

l2eq u fuking maggot.

[Koota]

yeah, too bad summer happened and more nihilum decided to spend every saturday indoor again

so wait, your problem is somehow our problem? makes sense

[Zalaerian]

It's our fault we can log in 50 and they can't get their 50+ from 3 months ago

[Kergan]

It's because all of a sudden playing EQ was a loser thing to do and they felt the need to go outside for some fresh air or whatever.

I would bet a paycheck if Nihilum took a week off Azrael would somehow muster a big enough raid force to slay dragons uncontested.

[Pudge]

^ Somehow, yes we probably could log in 20 ppl

[Kergan]

You'd have 40+ and you know it. You can deny it all you want. :)

[grasy nig]

The game would be much better if guilds were hard capped, epic encounters were hard cap, and respawns were quicker. Plus more of a reward for PvP, so that it's not just about contesting PvE content.

eq didn't get good till pop

no reason to even play once max level if no aa points or raid mobs up.

just saying.

[heartbrand]

eq didn't get good till pop

no reason to even play once max level if no aa points or raid mobs up.

just saying.

lot of truf to dis

[Nirgon]

The game would be much better if guilds were hard capped, epic encounters were hard cap, and respawns were quicker. Plus more of a reward for PvP, so that it's not just about contesting PvE content.

WoW I never thought of that

[XiakenjaTZ]

WoW I never thought of that

LoL

[Kergan]

I see what you did there.

[Genedin]

yeah, too bad summer happened and more nihilum decided to spend every saturday indoor again

Yea, honestly man it's way too nice to spend Saturday inside my wife would kill me. Luckily it will be 9000 degrees outside here in the next few weeks in the southern states so maybe we will get more of a turn-out.

[HippoNipple]

it's way too nice to spend Saturday inside my wife

Those commas.

[Genedin]

hahahaha

[Kergan]

lol

[Zuranthium]

eq didn't get good till pop

no reason to even play once max level if no aa points or raid mobs up.

just saying.

Not true at all. EQ was a roleplaying game. People enjoyed simply playing a character in this fantasy world. It was fun to just run around and interact. We would duel each other all time, set up PvP brawls in the arenas, have marriages, drunken gatherings, raid cities, etc.

Before the game was "figured out" people were still adventuring all the time even if they hit max level. There were a lot of items to get and tons of intricacies to figure out. The stuff that is just a click away on the wiki now are things that we spent a long time doing back in the day.

Hence why p99 is nowhere close to classic. There is no quest left in Everquest. There is no roleplaying left. No real sense of adventure. People play p99 like it's WoW.

It's fine to just have a raiding/pvp game, but it needs to be updated because EQ wasn't made for that. Most raids are a joke. Dragons and Gods should never be farmed. They should always be a challenge. The only reason p99 even interests me now is for the PvP, so I'll do the tedious PvE to get the gear needed for PvP (and only because there simply aren't any better fantasy PvP games out there that are still alive). The entire process of it all could and should be changed, so that all playtime spent in the game is meaningful rather than "busy work".

[Nirgon]

EQ didn't get good for me till PvP.

[Clark]

eq didn't get good till pop

no reason to even play once max level if no aa points or raid mobs up.

just saying.

o.O

[Kergan]

Not true at all. EQ was a roleplaying game. People enjoyed simply playing a character in this fantasy world. It was fun to just run around and interact. We would duel each other all time, set up PvP brawls in the arenas, have marriages, drunken gatherings, raid cities, etc.

Before the game was "figured out" people were still adventuring all the time even if they hit max level. There were a lot of items to get and tons of intricacies to figure out. The stuff that is just a click away on the wiki now are things that we spent a long time doing back in the day.

Hence why p99 is nowhere close to classic. There is no quest left in Everquest. There is no roleplaying left. No real sense of adventure. People play p99 like it's WoW.

It's fine to just have a raiding/pvp game, but it needs to be updated because EQ wasn't made for that. Most raids are a joke. Dragons and Gods should never be farmed. They should always be a challenge. The only reason p99 even interests me now is for the PvP, so I'll do the tedious PvE to get the gear needed for PvP (and only because there simply aren't any better fantasy PvP games out there that are still alive). The entire process of it all could and should be changed, so that all playtime spent in the game is meaningful rather than "busy work".

I never once roleplayed, had a "drunken gathering", went to a wedding or /dueled someone. Ever.

And it's impossible to make raid content challenging but doable at the beginning and not get steamrolled after it's been farmed and the overall gear level has increased ten fold without making changes to the bosses.

[XiakenjaTZ]

I did a pub crawl back on live in 99 or 2000.

Before TS we had a guild meeting in N Freeport once. That was funny.

[Elderan]

I did a pub crawl back on live in 99 or 2000.

Before TS we had a guild meeting in N Freeport once. That was funny.

We always used IRC for meetings and hanging out when the servers were down. We had several developers who used to hang out in our IRC also. That was until someone hacked one of the devs and grabbed a very early design document for EQ2 and leaked it online.

[Koota]

tight

[Duckwalk]

Scale mob difficulty based on the FTE players number of guilded in-zone characters.

Variance could possibly work (this isn't blue).

Do something to deincentivize one giant dominate zerg guild.

Y'all are funny though, server is only played by a skeleton crew of RMTers for months, loses legends status so a big push is made to lure new players with further changes to exp gains and pvp level ranges and just when Red is looking healthy again the guild that basically strangled the server to death in the first place recruits all new players and begins the entire cycle anew.

[Zuranthium]

I never once roleplayed, had a "drunken gathering", went to a wedding or /dueled someone. Ever.

Well many people did. Even aside from that you're ignoring the actual exploration people had to do, which is gone now since it's all on the wiki.

And it's impossible to make raid content challenging but doable at the beginning and not get steamrolled after it's been farmed and the overall gear level has increased ten fold without making changes to the bosses.

Of course it's possible, just requires better game design. Gear could not have such ridiculously high increases in power, more raid targets could have level limits, raid targets could increase in power by "reading" the power level they are facing. This is in addition to limiting the amount of people who can engage. Lots of things could be put in.

For the sake of historical accuracy we've already got the Blue server, so I'd hope for actual improvements on Red. Make it a good game, not a replica. The server right now has a bunch of non-classic additions and they have been completely beneficial.

[Alawen]

I got to page 10 and stopped reading. It's really obvious that hivemind has never been on the tracking side of variance. It's a piece of shit and it stinks. This is all a horrible idea and if it gets implemented I guarantee you that everyone involved will hate it.

Also, Nizzar will mandate the powerleveling of 20 rangers and camp epic cleric next to their tracking spot so fast it will make your head spin. Running around killing trackbots will be amusing for about two days.

[Kergan]

Of course it's possible, just requires better game design. Gear could not have such ridiculously high increases in power, more raid targets could have level limits, raid targets could increase in power by "reading" the power level they are facing.


And it's impossible to make raid content challenging...without making changes to the bosses.

[Koota]

Y'all are funny though, server is only played by a skeleton crew of RMTers for months, loses legends status so a big push is made to lure new players with further changes to exp gains and pvp level ranges and just when Red is looking healthy again the guild that basically strangled the server to death in the first place recruits all new players and begins the entire cycle anew.

Ya you're right. Next time we'll just automatically deny unsolicited applications because it'll make Duckwalk's view point on the server different. Get the fuck outta here

[GradnerLives]

Variance will not solve any issues unless it's massive unclassic pseudo-random spawn timers.

24, 48, 72 hours, it doesn't matter, they have all inevitably changed the raid scene on blue into a tracking/poopsocking competition. If the same is done here, there's no reason to think it would be any different.

If a guild wants a mob, they'll park a tracker and avoid PVP on him. If a guild wants to contest, they'll have to have their raid force parked out and a tracker of their own. It's a zero-sum game since 2-3 days of straight pvp in a specific zone is completely unrealistic and totally inefficient, especially when multiple targets are in window.

That said, FULL variance (i.e. Cazic Thule could spawn anywhere between the second after he dies up to a full 2 weeks after he was killed) is the only way I could ever see variance working on these servers. We'd average the same number of bosses dying, so it wouldn't adversely affect the market, but there would be no competitive advantage to tracking since anything could spawn at any minute in any raid zone in the game. If you wanted a target, you'd have to camp there indefinitely to guarantee. Otherwise, the best bet is to just raid where you want to raid, race when something is up, and hope you're able to outmobilize.

Personally, I still think static timers is the way to go on pvp since it forces competition at set times that everyone is aware of, instead of allowing for off hours opportune sniping by uncontested raid forces, but if you think the same kind of variance they have on blue will add anything but tracking dkp to this server, I'd strongly suggest you take a look at the history of competitive raiding on that server.