NEW Emulator Server

[Dragonmist]

Someone please create a Time Locked Progression through Luclin.

Expansions Unlock once per year or something simular until SoL
Shared Bank
(Move items between toons no dangerous xfering plat and items between your EC Mule)
No Corpse Runs(Only Go after corpse for Experience Rezz)
Rules same as P99(No Boxing,no MQ or other third party programs,Real GMs,etc)

Theres four more years of fun ,and great memories if you ask me it removes the worst part of EQ and stops before PoK books jumped into the picture.

[Scrooge]

This post belongs on the EQEMU forums, if you're serious about your request.

[Dragonmist]

Prob Rerolled too...

[Giren]

Or an account locked progression server.

Every account that starts a character on the server is locked into classic until they complete some raid/etc, then kunark is unlocked for their account. Yadda yadda then velious is unlocked for their account. Rinse repeat for as many expansions as the server will support.

EDIT: Everyone hates PoP for the book travelling. Why is this the only thing that gets cited? If it's the only thing wrong with it, just remove all the PoK books from near the starting cities and keep only the one located in the nexus.

[Dragonmist]

After Velious lots quit,After Luclin More Quit,PoP is the last Straw some like LDoN/GoD, after those it really becomes a dead shore of nothingness...

[Giren]

After Velious lots quit,After Luclin More Quit,PoP is the last Straw some like LDoN/GoD, after those it really becomes a dead shore of nothingness...

You'll have to be more forthcoming than "lots quit". Because if the new subscriber numbers outweighed the lost subscriber numbers, it's not much of an observation.

"THERE IS WATER ESCAPING THE BUCKET."

"Bill, the bucket is full. We've built a bigger bucket and put the original bucket inside it."

"THERE IS STILL WATER ESCAPING THE FIRST BUCKET!"

[Tewaz]

I have proposed that after Velious, they add AA's, Beastlords, and the raised level cap. Then make one PoK book that goes straight to the Plane of Tranquility (access to all the raiding from PoP). Profit.

[Dragonmist]

FRESHSTART Server:P99-No CRs-Shared Bank=Goal

[Orruar]

Everyone thinks that everyone quit the same time they did, regardless of when that actually was.

In reality, sub numbers soared starting Luclin and through PoP, and remained at that plateau until late 2005, around the era of DoDh, which is coincidentally around the time of the first server merges.

[Giren]

Everyone thinks that everyone quit the same time they did, regardless of when that actually was.

In reality, sub numbers soared starting Luclin and through PoP, and remained at that plateau until late 2004, which is coincidentally around the time of the release of world of warcraft.

Fixed. ;)

[Yonkec]

I thought PoP raiding was top notch, much better than almost any expansion outside of velious.

PoK on the other hand, no thx.

[Grubbz]

PoP was the best "raiding" expansion of any game ever. If you were a hardcore raider in eq this was your expansion.

[Orruar]

PoP was the best "raiding" expansion of any game ever. If you were a hardcore raider in eq this was your expansion.

It was pretty good, but the mechanics were still rather simplistic. It was a step up from the previous expansions, but it was still 90% tank and spank with a few adds or ae mixed in. Demiplane comes to mind as a raid zone that had unique and fun fights.

[Giren]

It was pretty good, but the mechanics were still rather simplistic. It was a step up from the previous expansions, but it was still 90% tank and spank with a few adds or ae mixed in. Demiplane comes to mind as a raid zone that had unique and fun fights.

Keep in mind that raiding was very much in it's infancy as something attainable by a large number of players even when PoP came out.

As more people were able to raid, the fights had to become more complex because more tools also became available to the raiders.

Remember when the first complete heal rotation was done on a boss fight? It more or less trivialized keeping the tank up so they had to introduce new mechanics to kill the tank.

Very much a race between developers finding new ways to keep players interested and the players being able to figure out mechanics and strategies to complete the raids in less time.

[Dragonmist]

I noticed a major decline in population around 2006 before that it was still fairly healthy

[Grubbz]

It was pretty good, but the mechanics were still rather simplistic. It was a step up from the previous expansions, but it was still 90% tank and spank with a few adds or ae mixed in. Demiplane comes to mind as a raid zone that had unique and fun fights.

Not sure if this was a serious post or not but pop was far from tank and spank.
Fights like Magnetic Behemoth, Terris Thule, Rallos Zek, all required strategy and there are many many more fights that i could list. Now if you did content a few expansions down the road sure, your obviously overgeared enough you can spank and tank it but dont dare say it was spank and tank because it was far from that.

[Tomeofdiscord]

Not sure if this was a serious post or not but pop was far from tank and spank.
Fights like Magnetic Behemoth, Terris Thule, Rallos Zek, all required strategy and there are many many more fights that i could list. Now if you did content a few expansions down the road sure, your obviously overgeared enough you can spank and tank it but dont dare say it was spank and tank because it was far from that.

I would agree.

[Scrooge]

Not sure if this was a serious post or not but pop was far from tank and spank.
Fights like Magnetic Behemoth, Terris Thule, Rallos Zek, all required strategy and there are many many more fights that i could list. Now if you did content a few expansions down the road sure, your obviously overgeared enough you can spank and tank it but dont dare say it was spank and tank because it was far from that.

I agree as well, I actually happened to play during that era, along with a progressive guild which was the first to obtain Time keys, and raid Plane of Time itself. Especially places with final encounters like Plane of Earth (and B,) it took alot of effort to initially raid those kinds of places.

Especially because there weren't any existing strats for places like that, known to the public's eyes. People often take things for granted, because there's plenty of info on every encounter already - take your pick. There aren't that many players around anymore, who actually invent new strats and tactics on the fly, it's not so common these days.

[myriverse]

No, Orruar is more correct. Subs were still rising until 2005.

[Azure]

Would like to see this FV style with trivial loot code and drops. Server resets and fast EXP/GM handouts/corruption bad though. Thats the prob with 90% EMUs. At least Project1999 makes the majority of players earn their stuff.

[Yonkec]

Would like to see this FV style with trivial loot code and drops. Server resets and fast EXP/GM handouts/corruption bad though. Thats the prob with 90% EMUs. At least Project1999 makes the majority of players earn their stuff.

Who would have thought that it was so hard to keep a server legit?

[Dragonmist]

its pretty rediculous lolz

[JackFlash]

It was pretty good, but the mechanics were still rather simplistic. It was a step up from the previous expansions, but it was still 90% tank and spank with a few adds or ae mixed in. Demiplane comes to mind as a raid zone that had unique and fun fights.

Not when it was current.

[Aussie]

PoP raiding was great, however I think the mechanics of Omens of War where the best IMO.

MPG trials, making a whole group of people ducking at the same time etc in the "simon says" trial is something you just dont see in these easy day modern MMO's

[Dragonmist]

I hate about all of the New Age MMOs

But yes hard to find a worthy game I enjoyed Luclin,PoP,GoD,Omens,SoF and some other expansions but ended my streak in the fall of 2008 on live quit raiding during SoD gave up on it heh

[Scrooge]

Unfortunately there aren't but a few old MMOs which still retain their past glories, and only because of specific servers to maintain them.

Have you tried DAoC, Lineage 2, or Shadowbane?

[Champion_Standing]

A server that stops at luclin? Meh...might as well go to PoP at least.

I always wanted to make a PoP server with all class race combos unlocked for the hell of it. I did actually start, progress is currently at 1.5% completion.

[Erasong]

with the amount of interest i always see im shocked there isnt a legit classic to pop progression emu with a ruleset similar to p99.

[Uteunayr]

I'd like to see Luclin/PoP without the Nexus free ports, PoP Stones, Luclin priests, and Bazaar. Keep the grouping and raiding content, all that good stuff, just not the things that tend to isolate players from one another. I never had a problem with much of the content itself, merely the aspects of the game that helped to deteriorate the player base's interdependence.

[moklianne]

PoP raiding was great, however I think the mechanics of Omens of War where the best IMO.

MPG trials, making a whole group of people ducking at the same time etc in the "simon says" trial is something you just dont see in these easy day modern MMO's

EQ live has kept up with this mechanic, to the point where the player based said 'Enough!" They were taking it a bit too far.

[moklianne]

I'd like to see Luclin/PoP without the Nexus free ports, PoP Stones, Luclin priests, and Bazaar. Keep the grouping and raiding content, all that good stuff, just not the things that tend to isolate players from one another. I never had a problem with much of the content itself, merely the aspects of the game that helped to deteriorate the player base's interdependence.

My feeling exactly.

[Kayso]

I don't get the problem with the PoK books. They isolate players from one another?

/auction WTB Port to DL
/invite Druid_01
hand druid 50p
port
/g Thanks
/disband

Wow! What a meaningful and lasting relationship I've made. My game experience is so much richer for having a good friend like Druid_01. What a marvelous adventure! Good times. Good times.

Not a shot at Uteunayr, BTW. A lot of people say the same exact thing.

[moklianne]

with the amount of interest i always see im shocked there isnt a legit classic to pop progression emu with a ruleset similar to p99.

One of the biggest problems is that they claim the original zone source is gone. So, Freeport, PoM, Nek, and a host of other zones wouldn't be like they are on p99.

[Uteunayr]

I don't get the problem with the PoK books. They isolate players from one another?

/auction WTB Port to DL
/invite Druid_01
hand druid 50p
port
/g Thanks
/disband

Wow! What a meaningful and lasting relationship I've made. My game experience is so much richer for having a good friend like Druid_01. What a marvelous adventure! Good times. Good times.

Not a shot at Uteunayr, BTW. A lot of people say the same exact thing.

I keep trying to write a response, but I swear it gets too wordy even for me. Let me try and break it down even further. Also, just because I write something lengthy here, doesn't mean I felt I was being attacked. :) Just trying to explain the logic.

It matters on 2 big fronts: Chance encounters, and reputation.

1) It doesn't matter if you make a meaningful and lasting relationship with the person. The mere act of having a social exchange has positive mental benefits to human beings due to the way our brains evolved, as we are a social species.

Chance meetings are known to have a statistically significant increase to feelings of social trust and political efficacy. Similarly, such encounters will still appeal to the psyche of the player, as this game is inherently a social one.

2) Reputation matters. If you're a total dick to people, consistently, you're going to find yourself getting less porters wanting to help you, less necros wanting to summon your corpse, less clerics wanting to rez you, and so on. So, instead of being a complete asshat to anyone you meet (as is the case in many MMOs today), people approach situations more reasonably.

When they introduced PoK books, and Luclin portals, and Priests of Luclin, what happened was a reduction into how much people had to care about their reputation. Most games today don't make players need other players, and so the player is free to be a dick to anyone else they meet.

Now, I often hear that people say "but then you're just forcing people to be nice!" Well, that may be true. That's how life tends to work. We are connected, socially, to other people in complex webs of interdependence, and so we are not always totally free to act however we want. If we are free to act however we want, we get League of Legends like behavior. What this does is creates a behavioral spiral, as someone who would be decent is dragged into the shit storm that is un-restrained shitty behavior.

However, if the shitty behavior comes with reputation cost, the average person (who I believe is more than fine being a reasonable player) is not dragged down, and you can get a very positive community, like Classic EQ had.

EverQuest had a lot of ways early on to push for reputation costs. You couldn't just pay $10 and change your name, like you can on WoW and most other games today. Further, to replace a level 60 toon was a major endeavor. So, your name counted.

Additionally, it took time to get places. So porting was necessary if you were ever in a rush, so you wanted to be on good terms with some druids, and preferably not be a douche to them.

Trading was face to face, so if you were that asshole, you weren't going to get many traders. This was curbed significantly by trader alts, but they weren't as prominent on live as they were here (although it did occur).

Corpse summons, rezzes... All of these things are shortcuts to what is a very long and arduous game. If you want to get anywhere fast, you needed to be relatively decent to others.

Even grouping emphasizes the need to have a good reputation. You get known as a lazy asshat, guess who's not getting invited to the group next time? :D

Additionally, servers were made up of ~2000 players at peak hours? And there wasn't as much class clustering, it was far more diffuse. So you have approximately 154 of any class online at a time. Across 60 levels? And then of them, how many are /a or /r because they don't want to port or anything like that?

It created hardships at times, because some days, there simply wouldn't be porters around, or rezzers around. But that's the rough EQ game we all know and love. When they made these stones and things, they took away how much a player relies upon others, they made the game a bit easier and more convenient, but it ultimately meant players were not held accountable to the social mechanisms that the game used to have.

[Halius]

^^^

To add to Uteunayr's point the PoK books also took away a key ability for most Druids and Wizards to make money. I mean a lot of people make druid alts just so they can port others around, make some cash, and help friends. Add in the PoK books and you get much less need for a druid/wizard to port and ultimately you'll see less and less of these classes online. Granted they get new healing spells post-60 making them more effective priests but you take away one of their key roles which is porting.

Edit: I will also say that I did enjoy the PoP expansion and loved the Plane of Disease, Plane of Innovation, and other numerous zones it added on my warrior, just saying that it did take away a key role for porters.

[Uteunayr]

Which is why I'd like to see the content, the AAs, and all that jank... Just without the things that were put in for lazy convenience that hurts that interdependence.

[Kayso]

^^^

To add to Uteunayr's point the PoK books also took away a key ability for most Druids and Wizards to make money. I mean a lot of people make druid alts just so they can port others around, make some cash, and help friends. Add in the PoK books and you get much less need for a druid/wizard to port and ultimately you'll see less and less of these classes online. Granted they get new healing spells post-60 making them more effective priests but you take away one of their key roles which is porting.

Edit: I will also say that I did enjoy the PoP expansion and loved the Plane of Disease, Plane of Innovation, and other numerous zones it added on my warrior, just saying that it did take away a key role for porters.

I couldn't disagree more on the Druid/Wiz money issue.

Other than Jboots for a Wizzie, there's very little gear that makes a meaningful difference for druids or wizzies pre-45. By the time you have all the ports at 39, you can earn more leveling than you can porting.

I actually have a druid in the 50s on this server. If you start NK guards at 34, move to BB dorfs at 42, and go to Seafuries from 49+, you'll make more money leveling than you would have if you had spent the same time porting and were still 34.

But hey, we agree on PoP being fun.

[Kayso]

Which is why I'd like to see the content, the AAs, and all that jank... Just without the things that were put in for lazy convenience that hurts that interdependence.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying; specifically on interdependence making EQ better than games like WoW. I'm just not sure PoK books is where I'd draw that line.

[Halius]

I couldn't disagree more on the Druid/Wiz money issue.

Other than Jboots for a Wizzie, there's very little gear that makes a meaningful difference for druids or wizzies pre-45. By the time you have all the ports at 39, you can earn more leveling than you can porting.

I actually have a druid in the 50s on this server. If you start NK guards at 34, move to BB dorfs at 42, and go to Seafuries from 49+, you'll make more money leveling than you would have if you had spent the same time porting and were still 34.

But hey, we agree on PoP being fun.

I'm not saying that porting is the fastest and best way for them to make money, I know druids can solo well at higher levels, especially in outdoor zones. I'm just saying you are taking away one of the fundamental things that made druids/wizards a necessity in early EQ. On top of that need from most players, you can also make money, which is why a lot of people make druids and stop leveling them when they hit 40 or so. They just use them to help friends get around and make some extra cash.

[Uteunayr]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying; specifically on interdependence making EQ better than games like WoW. I'm just not sure PoK books is where I'd draw that line.

What else would you add? I like the amount of interdependence that classic offered. I think it was just the right amount to create a good community, without being too hard on players. What else did they add that you think took away from it?

[Kika Maslyaka]

I disagree of this view of "interdependency".
Interdependency should work in combat: this class tanks, this class dps, this class heals, this class CCs etc.
But it doesn't work for casual utility conveniences.
Why is that some classes given inherited ability to generate cash by casting same spell over and over again, while others can't ?
Why 7 casters can bind and gate at their leisure, while rest of us have to beg for bind for 30 min instead of enjoying the game as they do?
Why does the only way you can do jewelry is to find an enchanter to enchant for you? (or level up one yourself).

Where is this EQUAL level of interdependency for other classes?

How about we make it like this - Warrior is the ONLY class that can process ore into iron bars - hence you MUST find warrior or you can't smith.
How about - SK is the ONLY class that can make needles that are REQUIRED to do tailoring?
How about you must find a Rogue in order to bank - no rogue , no access to the bank.
How about - the only way you can cross a zone-line is by grouping with Bard?

Would you like that?

What I see is not interdependence, but a screwed up class balance in regards to casual utilities, where some class imbued with convenience to come and go as they please while others must depend on them without having any bonuses of their own.

This idea of "interdependence" may have worked in PnP DnD, where in each gaming session, all of your classes are present at the table and ready to provide these casual utilities free of charge, but it doesn't work in MMO.

[Millburn]

Opportunity cost is incredibly important for having any sort of healthy stratification though. Having hard disparities is actually a really good thing.

[Uteunayr]

I disagree of this view of "interdependency".
Interdependency should work in combat: this class tanks, this class dps, this class heals, this class CCs etc.
But it doesn't work for casual utility conveniences.
Why is that some classes given inherited ability to generate cash by casting same spell over and over again, while others can't ?
Why 7 casters can bind and gate at their leisure, while rest of us have to beg for bind for 30 min instead of enjoying the game as they do?
Why does the only way you can do jewelry is to find an enchanter to enchant for you? (or level up one yourself).

Where is this EQUAL level of interdependency for other classes?

How about we make it like this - Warrior is the ONLY class that can process ore into iron bars - hence you MUST find warrior or you can't smith.
How about - SK is the ONLY class that can make needles that are REQUIRED to do tailoring?
How about you must find a Rogue in order to bank - no rogue , no access to the bank.
How about - the only way you can cross a zone-line is by grouping with Bard?

Would you like that?

What I see is not interdependence, but a screwed up class balance in regards to casual utilities, where some class imbued with convenience to come and go as they please while others must depend on them without having any bonuses of their own.

This idea of "interdependence" may have worked in PnP DnD, where in each gaming session, all of your classes are present at the table and ready to provide these casual utilities free of charge, but it doesn't work in MMO.

Every class is unique from one another. They can each do something different to bring some value to the game that a player with another class cannot. For this, they can reap some benefit. A wizard/druid can port, a shaman can do alchemy, a necro can summon, and so on. Warriors are probably the most gimped in this, and it's why they used to get first-loot rights in groups back in the day to make up for their risk and cost of playing a class like that. But even more so, they brought the strongest tank to the group, something that people depend upon.

If you're going to make a claim about Equal interdependence, that's fine. I wont argue that. I do believe that there is unequal interdependence, but that doesn't mean that interdependence is bad, or doesn't work. It just means that the design needs to be made better to make people depend upon one another. The fix to unequal interdependence isn't to get rid of it, it's to find ways of elaborating that interdependence for those classes with less to offer (such as warrior). A slippery slope argument isn't useful.

To your examples, I just need to ask: why should a Warrior be the only one that can smelt ore? The other limitations all make sense, but the ones you list don't. Why should a warrior be the only one who can smelt ore? An enchanter is the best to do jewelcrafting because they are the ones who have access to the magic to enchant metal, making it possible to create magical items. That is reasonable. Shamans hold the secrets of alchemy in their banks, and don't let others at it. That's reasonable. You're examples of interdependence just don't make sense.

Instead of "Should you need a bard to go through a zone line?", which doesn't make sense, what about "Should you need a spellcaster to levitate so you can get across that ravine?". Sure! Why not? That's what spellcasters do.

If the answer is to remove interdependence, rather than rebalance it, you get WoW and most other MMORPGs. Sorry, I'll take the struggle of finding my warrior a bind any day over making every class able to do everything on their own. And I think most people who play here will understand that sentiment.

If you have other ideas of interdependence that would be reasonable, I'd be all over adding stuff to balance out the level of stuff each class can bring to the game. It just should not be the same thing necessarily. Warriors shouldn't port, nor should the game baby people into making it easy to do everything.

If your answer is that each class should be given more equal interdependence traits, so that each person has something unique they can offer to others, I will agree. But that's not about interdependence itself, that's about the way EQ designed its' interdependence.

Now ultimately, what you posted did not, in any way, go against what I was saying about player interdependence helping to create a stronger community. If your criticism is merely balance of interdependence, I will say again, that's fine. But that's not an argument against interdependence, that's an argument about the balance of that interdependence.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Well personally, I am against out of combat interdependence.
Interdependence should be COMBAT ONLY. (you can call this wow-like if you prefer, but I strongly believe that tradeskiling should not be connected to your adventure class.)

However back to EQ original design, even if we do bring interdependence for all aspects of the game (not just combat), then yes the classes are not equal. they are ridiculously not equal. They gave Enchanting to Enchanters, Alchemy to Shamans, and Tinkering to Gnomes, cause those were SIMPLE lore-based connections, and didn't bother to balance it against the rest of the classes.

Where are human, barberian and dark elf trade skill related bonuses? There are none.
Warrior, paladin, SK, bard TS bonuses? Again none.
Why didn't dwarves got massive blacksmithing bonuses? They should have.

100% lore-based system works for a book or a movie, but in a game, some lore have to be sacrificed in order to keep all ends even.

[Uteunayr]

Well personally, I am against out of combat interdependence.
Interdependence should be COMBAT ONLY. (you can call this wow-like if you prefer, but I strongly believe that tradeskiling should not be connected to your adventure class.)

Why? There is strong science evidence that interdependence is a force for natural conflict resolution. Not just when it's involved in coming together to overcome enemies (as in the combat only sense), but in all aspects of life. Check out Keohane and Nye, and most of the democratic peace literature, specifically by Russet and O'Neal.

However back to EQ original design, even if we do bring interdependence for all aspects of the game (not just combat), then yes the classes are not equal. they are ridiculously not equal. They gave Enchanting to Enchanters, Alchemy to Shamans, and Tinkering to Gnomes, cause those were SIMPLE lore-based connections, and didn't bother to balance it against the rest of the classes.

Why? Every class has a purpose. Why should shamans be less unique and interesting? It's not as if Warriors are not being used because they don't have Alchemy. Heck, probably the most "useless" class is a Druid, but even they have (had) a solid track mechanic, and the ability to port people around. Regardless as to their relative value in the amount of equality, each class has a role.

It's not as if because of Rogues, no other DPS role matters. It's not as if being a Gnome invalidates being a Non-Gnome. The closest thing to that is a Necromancer for Iksar, because Regeneration is just that vital. But in Velious and Luclin, they introduce HP regen items that start to curb off that negative effect.

They are lore based connections that make sense. It gives the game character. Look at EQ2 and WoW if you want to see what happens when things are homogenized so that everyone can do everything equally in balance.

I don't care if I am not as high a DPS as a Rogue being a Necromancer. I do other things better than any other class. Every class does something better than every other, in some way, and it validates each class if they live up to playing to that strength.

Where are human, barberian and dark elf trade skill related bonuses? There are none.

Other than racial armor, why should they?

Warrior, paladin, SK, bard TS bonuses? Again none.

Why should they? What trade skill should Warriors be able to do better than a Paladin, and why?

Why didn't dwarves got massive blacksmithing bonuses? They should have.

Why? Not every game's lore needs to be the exact same.

100% lore-based system works for a book or a movie, but in a game, some lore have to be sacrificed in order to keep all ends even.

Why do all ends need to be kept even? Why does every choice need to be neutralized because people feel they made bad choices?

Seriously, you're talking to someone who rolled a Dark Elf Necromancer, got him to level 60, just to realize how fucking stupid I was for making that choice. I am now level 57 on my Iksar Necromancer to make up for that mistake. And you know what? That's fine. Because I fucked up. I was dumb, and I made dumb choices. People should be allowed to fail because of their dumb choices, or learn to live with their dumb choices. If you want to do Alchemy and you roll a Warrior, you made a dumb choice.

Not everyone has to be able to do everything. It invalidates the uniqueness of each class, it takes away from what makes each great. That's how you get WoW, it's how you get EQ2.

You don't have to sacrifice anything just because it's a game. If anything, you can put more stuff in it because now people will interact with the lore in more thoughtful ways.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Not everyone has to be able to do everything

I am only commenting to this, since I think this is the main point of this argument.

Yes, not everyone has to be able to do everything.
yet, you get classes/race who get perks, and you get others who don't get anything.
This choice is NOT between: "Do I want to RP beautiful elf or ugly ogre?"
This is the choice between: "Do I want to play a class that is powerful or sucks?"

Comparing to WoW interdependence: in WoW you are limited to only 2 TS professions - which means you will have to have obtain soem TS components from other crafters to do some of the better items. In EQ - you can do all of the TS at once, yet you can't do enchanting without enchanter - hows that for FAILED interdependence?

In vanilla EQ2 TS interdependence was even more severe - you were limited to a single TS and had to get multiple components from multiple other crafters to do pretty much anything. (this did eventually removed it to make it easier, which sucks IMHO, but it was way better thought out than in eq1)

Another problem with EQ1 interdependence balance, is when they give class great out of combat powers (teleports) and penalize them in their combat performance.
Yes I am talking about druids and wizards. So druids got ports, which is balanced of by sucky heals and sub par dps, which makes them neither a healer nor a caster. And outside of porting, wizard is just a gimped mage.

My point is: Combat power should not be balanced vs non combat powers.
If you are great tank, then you can't dps and can't heal.
If you are great dps, then you can't tank and can't heal.
If you are healer, then you can't dps and can't tank.

But what they did they classes that could not do neither but gave them cool "side perks". So yes everyone did hadve an alt-druid in a guild just to port people around cause they were mega useless otherwise (up until PoP)

I am not arguing that Rogue, Ranger and Monk should have PRECISELY 25,677.88 DPS EACH EXACTLY. I am arguing for that classes should be more or less reliable in what they do in Combat and outside of combat as separate issues.

You just can't make class that is good at nothing in combat, compensating it by "but it can teleport!" It just doesn't work. Same goes for - for classes that uber tank/dps, but have to spend 45 min looking for a bind.

[Uteunayr]

This is the choice between: "Do I want to play a class that is powerful or sucks?"

But this is where we are inherently disagreeing. No class sucks in EQ as far as I am concerned. Some have more unique traits to make them more connected, others have less. But every class has a role, a unique role. Heck, I'm a Necromancer, and I like to think I kick ass at groups, but I fight against a legacy of a lot of bad necromancers.

I was in a group the other day. They decided to grab me in instead of a Rogue. When we got to a wipe, I managed to FD, get out, come back in, EE the cleric, and return the group. That's something a rogue would not have provided. Alternatively, with a rogue, they could have done more DPS than I could offer. Which is better?

So I don't agree that it is a choice between one being powerful, and one sucking. Tinker isn't going to make you a god. Being a shaman with Alchemy doesn't make you more powerful than another class. Being able to port doesn't make you powerful. All these things do is to give you utility.

Some people have more utility, others have less. And I already agreed that I am not opposed to giving more classes more unique abilities to help round it out so that everyone has unique traits that gives them something to offer others. The answer, though, is not to get rid of Alchemy, nor to make everyone have the same thing (everyone get an Alchemy, everyone get a Tinker, etc).

Comparing to WoW interdependence: in WoW you are limited to only 2 TS professions - which means you will have to have obtain soem TS components from other crafters to do some of the better items. In EQ - you can do all of the TS at once, yet you can't do enchanting without enchanter - hows that for FAILED interdependence?

WoW isn't failed interdependence in that regard. First off, in WoW, only really 1 profession needs more professions than a player can have, and that is Engineering. Leveling the first 300 points of Engineering requires stuff from Tailors, Leatherworkers, Miners, Blacksmiths, and so on. So you do need to engage, and I applauded, and still do applaud Blizzard for designing a fantastic profession in Vanilla.

However, since my original post, you have continued to focus on Tradeskills, which are only one major part of the overall web of interdependence. For this one great thing that WoW does, it has since abandoned it. It has made it so that everyone can get a flying mount with ease. No one needs a port anywhere, because there are NPC ports. The Auction House will handle all your trades. You don't need to even talk to people to get into a group, or even a raid anymore. The social elements are all melted away because the cost of interdependence (occasional frustration at being unable to get what you rely on others for) was seen as something that pushes people away from the convenience that WoW offers.

In all these ways, WoW has failed to build a strong community. The strongest communities in that game are in guilds who need one another to complete advanced raiding content.

Another problem with EQ1 interdependence balance, is when they give class great out of combat powers (teleports) and penalize them in their combat performance.

Yes I am talking about druids and wizards. So druids got ports, which is balanced of by sucky heals and sub par dps, which makes them neither a healer nor a caster. And outside of porting, wizard is just a gimped mage.

Just because they behave differently, doesn't mean they are penalized. A Wizard can port, and a Wizard can't do great sustained DPS. Sure. But who else can spam burst 2k blasts on a dragon in Velious? No one. Wizards have insane value beyond what a Mage has outside of porting.

A druid can't do very good DPS, but that's because it's a mix healer/DPS. It isn't because they can port.

My point is: Combat power should not be balanced vs non combat powers.

And I think they should. If you're a rogue, you bring solid DPS. What else? About it. You can pick locks, sneak tag, and some other stuff, but you're mostly a DPS machine. Meanwhile, if you're a Wizard, you're a sick burst DPS with ports. If you're a Necromancer, you're a sustained DPS with the ability to sustain group mana.

Not everyone has to DPS to be valuable. Not everyone has to be equally able to do combat stuff, if they can make up for it in other ways. It doesn't matter how many rogues you have at your raid if you don't have ports to get there. You can have 4 rogues if you like to max DPS, but you're going to have issues finding a puller, handling large pulls, and so on.

Every class has their value, regardless of how they are weighted in combat. So when you say "You just can't make class that is good at nothing in combat", I disagree that this happens. Every class is good at something in combat. Druids can charm kill, they can group regrowth, they can buff, evac in case of emergency, place out some DoTs (which becomes more valuable in Velious). Just because not every class can do maximum DPS doesn't mean they are less powerful.

Regardless of if you agree to the balance of the interdependence (and again, I am not opposed to giving classes with less, more to make up for it), the positive, strong influence on a community of players due to interdependence is well known. Luclin and PoP killed it, and I'd like to see a Luclin and PoP without stones, without the bazaar, without the port up dudes, and so on. Just the new content, and keep the player base reliant upon each other as they are.

I think now I will conclude my part of this conversation by saying: I feel no shame in saying that I believe we must agree to disagree. We are arguing at the moment about opinions, not empirical fact. I think we both accept the same facts about the game and all, and we're just arguing about opinions as to how the game should be. Thanks for the talk.

[Grimfan]

For some people consequence of choice, and limited abilities and such are ideal, for others they are not, and they are not fun.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I think now I will conclude my part of this conversation by saying: I feel no shame in saying that I believe we must agree to disagree. We are arguing at the moment about opinions, not empirical fact. I think we both accept the same facts about the game and all, and we're just arguing about opinions as to how the game should be. Thanks for the talk.

I can respect this, and certainly agree that to each his own ;)

I just wanted to stay for the record that I am in no way consider WoW/EQ2 to be example of "perfect game". It just, in my opinion, some design elements are better balanced (again in my opinion), but of course both WoW/EQ2 are plagued by myriad of other issues that I definitely don't like, which is why I have given up on both.
Not being able to build/connect with the community is certainly a problem in most modern MMOs that concentrate too much on convenience (yes even for my tastes), and too much on instancing, that certainly makes any individual guild or small group of player to play in their own little world only occasionally encountering other players somewhere by the bank.

[Dragonmist]

They need to bring the players back together for sure EQ 1 definitely done that very well we probably wont see games go back to that point but remain further away from the need for other players/guilds/groups.

[Lyrith]

Wow some of these last posts really need a TL;DR. I read every post up til most of page 5. I just wanted to come here and say how much I LOVED POP, I believe it was the best expansion in any MMORPG that I have ever played. I really hurt mages more than anyone.

Druids could make the same amount of money just sitting in PoK buffing people. It made a central hub for a community to hang out in and talk/etc. Most importantly people could get buffs here from big Mass Group Buffs, or they could just make a couple druid friends and get buffed up then Book there way to where ever they wanted to go level. The druids could sit in PoK earning money while waiting for raids to happen.

As an enchanter on live I made SOOO much money sitting here casting KEI it was stupid. It gave every caster a place to go knowing they could get a SoW/Clarity and get back to leveling or doing what they wanted to do.

The raids where amazing, the flagging system was awesome. Going back and re-flagging new guildies was awesome. People really had to earn their places in raid content. The bottle necks were created by content instead of by guilds locking others out of it. Only cock blocks I recall was Rallos Zek in Plane of War, main guilds would still kill him for loot/keep flags on lock down. The fights in Plane of Earth/Water were so massive and time consuming it took dedicated guilds to get into Time. Once a guild has time that was their priority.

Alt's weren't typically flagged and destroying other guilds raid content, people had to be focused and prepared on their mains.

End rant as my post is now too long just like the ones above it.

TL;DR - I love PoP and I hope we get to see it one day in any form as long as raid content is in it and 100% accurate with flag system.

[moklianne]

TL;DR - I love PoP and I hope we get to see it one day in any form as long as raid content is in it and 100% accurate with flag system.

I loved it too. I actually loved Luclin, but PoP was amazing. I hope they consider it with the 'custom content' after Velious at some point in the future. Removing all of the easy transport methods would make the biggest difference. You need some way to get to PoK without the need of a wizard or Druid, but make it as painful as the current boats.

[Lyrith]

but make it as painful as the current boats.

Needs to be 2-3x worse than boats imho... lol

And I don't care for the bazaar and all that cats on the moon stuff. Some neat and fun zones like Ssra. But getting into Vex Thal, FML...

[Millburn]

My only issue I had with both Luclin and PoP was the bazaar and books. Everything else was so solid. I just wish they would have anticipated how those two things really deteriorated the culture that had grown naturally from the beginning of the game.

[Leeyuuduu]

I was ok with the moon and PoP, but not the cats, not the PoK, and definitely not the new character models (for most races). It would be very interesting to see what the GMs would pick and choose in the name of the classic IF post-Velious were ever considered.

[Gwence]

PoP raiding was great, however I think the mechanics of Omens of War where the best IMO.

MPG trials, making a whole group of people ducking at the same time etc in the "simon says" trial is something you just dont see in these easy day modern MMO's

the simon says trial could be totally cheese'd by fighting on the walls in the arena area, and most guilds did it this way

Im curious what your resume is when it comes to "easy day mmo's"

I think EQ is easily one of the best games ever made but I would not say that is because of it's raid structure. Dont get me wrong, EQ raids were tons of fun and the game easily has the best itemization I've ever experienced, but EQ raids have always been able to be carried to success by a small amount of good players. In this way I would rate EQ raids as not really all that involved and rather easy. Most classes in an EQ raid just stand in one spot and click a button every couple of seconds, this is true even in later expansions like Omens of War.

I don't have any WoW experience, but I have a considerable amount of Swtor experience (which is pretty much WoW with lightsabers). I believe most people make there judgements of modern day mmo end games prematurely due to the fact that most of the people will play through the easiest version of a raid, which WoW and Swtor offer to appease the masses of players that just are not very good, and never experience the hard or nightmare versions of these raids.

I dont know how WoW does it but Swtor has 3 difficulty version of each of there raids, and not even 5% of the subscription population is capable of completing the hardest versions. EQ was never anywhere near that kind of difficulty.

[Kika Maslyaka]

+1 for WoW has some insane difficulty raids specially for 20+ size raids, which will have you running all over the place each player doing his own thing or you will wipe in seconds.
Most EQ1 raids are tank and spank, only made difficult by need of 5+ clerics chain healing the tank and bringing shit load of resist gear.
EQ1 did started getting some very complex raids starting with DoDH.

[Yonkec]

the simon says trial could be totally cheese'd by fighting on the walls in the arena area, and most guilds did it this way

Im curious what your resume is when it comes to "easy day mmo's"

I think EQ is easily one of the best games ever made but I would not say that is because of it's raid structure. Dont get me wrong, EQ raids were tons of fun and the game easily has the best itemization I've ever experienced, but EQ raids have always been able to be carried to success by a small amount of good players. In this way I would rate EQ raids as not really all that involved and rather easy. Most classes in an EQ raid just stand in one spot and click a button every couple of seconds, this is true even in later expansions like Omens of War.

I don't have any WoW experience, but I have a considerable amount of Swtor experience (which is pretty much WoW with lightsabers). I believe most people make there judgements of modern day mmo end games prematurely due to the fact that most of the people will play through the easiest version of a raid, which WoW and Swtor offer to appease the masses of players that just are not very good, and never experience the hard or nightmare versions of these raids.

I dont know how WoW does it but Swtor has 3 difficulty version of each of there raids, and not even 5% of the subscription population is capable of completing the hardest versions. EQ was never anywhere near that kind of difficulty.

I think you are having trouble recalling just how long it took some servers to get past content. Sure most guilds beat content in time, but how many guilds across all the servers actually beat the content within the timeframe that it was intended to be? Exactly how many guilds killed AoW prior to Luclin's release? Id wager that is is reasonably close to whatever figure out are making up regarding WoW and SWtOR.

Also, cut EQ some slack, designing raid content in 1999 and 2000s absolutely NOT comparable to designing raid content in 2005 and 2008 and 2013. WoW puts out expansions how often? I think they understand that their content needs to be as painful and insane as possible to keep people from throwing poo at them during the buildup to the next expansions release. Hence the "free" content patches that are just them holding back part of each expansion. There is nothing to fucking do in WoW outside of dailies, raids, and going into other game's communities and telling them how much they suck.

[Kika Maslyaka]

There is nothing to fucking do in WoW outside of dailies, raids, and going into other game's communities and telling them how much they suck.

this I can agree on. Outside of raids, once you hit max level (which is relatively easy in wow) there is nothing to do solo.

I am also upset with Blizz to dramatically reduce amount of XP needed to get to max level with each expansion - even if you determined to play through all the content (quests and missions etc), by the time you get to 20+ the quests will go green and ultra easy before you get to them, so you don't even get to enjoy the quests at the level of difficulty they were meant to be done cause you leveling so fast, you out level a zone before you do even half of the quests there.

For example - by the time you finish all quests in Barrens, you are lev 24, and starting quests in Ahsenvale already green. By the time you finish Ashenvale you are 35, running around laying waste to lev 28 mobs in packs. Gets boring quick, so you have no choice but to skip the content to get some challenge.

[Gwence]

I think you are having trouble recalling just how long it took some servers to get past content. Sure most guilds beat content in time, but how many guilds across all the servers actually beat the content within the timeframe that it was intended to be? Exactly how many guilds killed AoW prior to Luclin's release? Id wager that is is reasonably close to whatever figure out are making up regarding WoW and SWtOR.

Also, cut EQ some slack, designing raid content in 1999 and 2000s absolutely NOT comparable to designing raid content in 2005 and 2008 and 2013. WoW puts out expansions how often? I think they understand that their content needs to be as painful and insane as possible to keep people from throwing poo at them during the buildup to the next expansions release. Hence the "free" content patches that are just them holding back part of each expansion. There is nothing to fucking do in WoW outside of dailies, raids, and going into other game's communities and telling them how much they suck.

the aow comparison isnt valid, I dont think any guild killed it legitimately prior to AA's, but not for lack of ability, it was a total R.N.G. fight and still a complete tank and spank everyone else just stand there and hit 1 button type of fight, just because they made the boss have a strong possibility to 1 shot any tank of that era makes that fight a poor design imo not so much a well planned difficult fight.

The toughest part of most EQ raids is managing lag and the players in your own guild since often times there will be 50-60++.

Also my argument wasnt that EQ raids arent difficult, just not as difficult as modern MMO's and also that they are not anywhere near as interactive as raids in modern day MMO's either.