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sunmilk
04-09-2014, 11:29 PM
Hello. I'm new to the server and new to project1999 in general. I thought it would be worthwhile documenting some of my thoughts and concerns (as a new player here) regarding issues on red99 that seem to be important to the community at large.

I will start with the basics. This is a *PvP* server which is to suggest that the gross majority of players who play here do so for the player vs. player interaction. Players who are not interested in this feature are likely to play on the other server. While this is completely obvious, it is imperative to note that in order for PvP to exist, players need to exist. As you might imagine, the amount of PvP interaction on a server with population of 200 is likely to be nearly double the amount of PvP interaction on a server (with same rulesets, etc) with population 100. This is to say there is a positive, causal relationship between the population of a server and how much interaction there is between its players (pvp included).

A server with a low population is destined to have low player interaction by virtue of numbers alone. What this means is that more people are forced to solo (which we all know is absolutely abyssmal for the majority of classes in this game), and rely on their own means for progressing throughout the game. Definitely way more punishing in the group-centric game of Everquest relative to any somewhat recent MMO (or version of Everquest). What this also means, is that when you do happen to encounter someone in range of you while leveling up... you are less inclined to even attack them because they are one of literally a dozen people on the server in your level range... In other words, by choosing to pvp you forego your rare opportunity to group and progress with other people on the server.

So low population means less people to play with, which means it's harder to progress and level since you are forced to be so self-reliant, and furthermore your opportunity to PvP is doubly limited by the low population: 1) not many people in range to start with, and 2) the few people are in range are the few people that you could group with if you didn't want to solo 100% of your time here. There are also other things to consider, like 2*) the gross majority of new players are either a) from blue with funds from blue, or b) an epiced and/or fungi'd twink of someone who has been playing on this server for a bit longer than a few weeks.

So population is a pretty important variable here, especially since basically all of us want more people to play with and more people to PvP against... But it's not so much population that is the essential variable, but population DENSITY. In particular, the size of the population relative to the size of the in-game world. Currently, we have a very small population of ~100ish (at good times) on a world that doesn't include Velious. When Velious is released, if our population has not increased we will see our population DENSITY decrease even further. There will be more zones available, and the same number (or less) people to fill them and the game will feel more deserted than it does now UNLESS the population grows.

Now let's talk about population growth. In order to understand growth on this server, it is imperative to understand barriers of entry. What do newcoming players have stacked against them that might make entry to this server difficult?

1) low population, not many people to group with
2) pvp server, harder to exp
3) low population, low resources in general (binds, ports, trades, people, basically everything)
4) server has been out for 2+ years, competing against people with lots of gear/twinks/etc
4a) veterans of server have enjoyed extra time on server (obviously) but additionally exp bonus for portions of that extra time on server


When Velious is released, these barriers of entry will only increase. The game will have been out longer, so new players will be even further behind (relatively speaking). Additionally, AAs and new gear will be released, so the disparity will no longer be naked lvl 1 vs lvl 60 full VP (or whatever bullshit bluebie gear the server 'elite' are wearing). Instead, it will be naked lvl 1 vs lvl 60 full NToV (or whatever) with a fuckload of AAs. It will take even more time and effort to start from fresh to become competitive at max level (which is the only place where pvp seems to exist since there is hardly a population and an almost nonexistant lowbie population).

How can you fix the biggest problem on this server (population)? Provide incentives for new players starting here. What are the most straightforward incentives you can give that will reduce these barriers of entry? How about an exp bonus that most of the server veterans benefited from tremendously for who knows how long? How about some transparency when it comes to the handling the server? From the week or two I've been here I get the strong impression that whoever has the power to make this server work doesn't want it to work at all. It's hard to convince new people to start here when the server looks like it's dying before everyone's eyes (despite GMs saying explicitly that they won't pull the plug). You don't have the server on life support... it seems like the only reason the server hasn't died yet is simply to spite the people with power over it. Coming from a new person... the future of this server (given all that I have witnessed) seems grim as fuck.

This server would be way more fun if it actually had people to play with. Out of the seven other people I started this server with, only two other people are playing. And the people who quit didn't quit because of the exp, they quit because of the population. There are not enough people playing, and the best solution to that is a simple exp bonus.

Also, some other ideas I think are potentially good:

1) In addition to the exp bonus (which will bring more players), implement (or re-implement?) some sort of exp loss on pvp death as to return to a more "classic" version of Everquest. I know you guys love talking about how you need to keep this classic, so why not increase population by increasing exp, increase the pvp by increasing the population, and then make pvp more important by implementing exp loss (that will be mitigated or hedged by the bonus exp you are giving people).

2) Do NOT get rid of ooc. The server has a skeleton for a population--removal of ooc would result in catastrophic failure for all newer players who are SO reliant on ooc to get help from people (since most zones are barren). That said, ooc is like a real-time version of this forum. Basically, a piece of shit. That's fine, because as I already said before ooc is 100% necessary for the new population. As other people have suggested, though, please add a zone and/or location to people ooc chat. This will both help limit the bullshit as WELL as increasing pvp. Double win.

3) Just get rid of /anon and /role. I have always wanted this feature on pvp everquest :D

tldr; Everyone who is playing here wants a higher population. Causal correlation between exp bonus and population size. The exp bonus is not the problem, but it IS A PARTIAL SOLUTION to the problem of population size.. Solutions to population problem need to be implemented IMMEDIATELY, not "soon."

tldr,tldr; 420 blaze it, no-scope taco bell grande meal with a side of flaming diarrhea (firehea)

kank
04-09-2014, 11:35 PM
WOW

You seem like an intelligent person with good writing skills.

Help density: roll back Kunark!

Colgate
04-09-2014, 11:41 PM
hmm

Galacticus
04-09-2014, 11:47 PM
Welcome to RED!

Telron
04-10-2014, 12:28 AM
Such a waste of breath. I like red for what it is. A low pop "pvp" server. Should just /claim 60 on every toon and let ppl pvp and do the PVE over on blue.

Smedy
04-10-2014, 01:24 AM
3) Just get rid of /anon and /role. I have always wanted this feature on pvp everquest :D

this is something they tried on another server and it turned out to result in less pvp than before, you know why? cause if no one can be anonymous you can use the /who command in surrounding zones to see whos coming for you before they get to ya, which results in people avoiding eachother at a much higher rate then before..

looks great on paper but in reality everyone is a bitch and no one straight up rolls 1v1 style unless they know for a fact they are OP and cannot be beat, so it's always gonna be one guy avoiding the other using the who commands without the anon feature.

sunmilk
04-10-2014, 01:30 AM
this is something they tried on another server and it turned out to result in less pvp than before, you know why? cause if no one can be anonymous you can use the /who command in surrounding zones to see whos coming for you before they get to ya, which results in people avoiding eachother at a much higher rate then before..

looks great on paper but in reality everyone is a bitch and no one straight up rolls 1v1 style unless they know for a fact they are OP and cannot be beat, so it's always gonna be one guy avoiding the other using the who commands without the anon feature.

Oh, that's awesome. I had no idea that had already been tried before... and I have to admit, what you explain isn't an immediately obvious pitfall of that feature, but it is understandable. Was just a thought :p

JPMorgan
04-10-2014, 04:39 AM
1) In addition to the exp bonus (which will bring more players), implement (or re-implement?) some sort of exp loss on pvp death as to return to a more "classic" version of Everquest. I know you guys love talking about how you need to keep this classic, so why not increase population by increasing exp, increase the pvp by increasing the population, and then make pvp more important by implementing exp loss (that will be mitigated or hedged by the bonus exp you are giving people).

I don't really see the point of this. Twinks running around with fungi tunics and epics: Why make the meaningless deaths caused by these characters even more time consuming? There is already an additional exp penalty imposed upon any new player that has to deal with twinks. Being corpse camped, or calling LNS, are both equally disruptive. You're devoting time to CR's or being forced to leave a zone with a decent ZEM. This isn't two players, or even groups of players, duking it out over desirable camps. It's one player--with no intention of leveling--disrupting the exp grind of another player.

"Pvp happens on a pvp server." It does. But, it seems incredibly counter productive to the goal of establishing a growing server population when the obvious answer to the low numbers issue is an exp bonus. We're assuming that easier exp will make more people want to play here, yet we tolerate individuals dumping unreasonable amounts of time and plat into low level alts for the purpose of griefing new players.

Some twinks are decent about it and don't wait for an LNS to be called. They get their YT and move on. Others, though, will invoke some bazaar sense of ownership over a zone and stay as long as necessary to ensure that no one in range is taking advantage of its superior exp. I think this is probably the number one reason why those who do come to Red don't stay very long. As was made evident by the group who quit after being stomped last month by some SK twinks. I personally can put up with the face rolling some of these characters are capable of dishing out. But, I'm one person to the four or five others who quit. That's just bad math if the goal is to retain new players.

tl,dr: Exp loss on pvp death is unnecessary. You are already losing a considerable amount of time through CRs and camp relocation. Problem is compounded by grief twinks who log on when mains get stomped in 60 pvp.


2) Do NOT get rid of ooc. The server has a skeleton for a population--removal of ooc would result in catastrophic failure for all newer players who are SO reliant on ooc to get help from people (since most zones are barren). That said, ooc is like a real-time version of this forum. Basically, a piece of shit. That's fine, because as I already said before ooc is 100% necessary for the new population. As other people have suggested, though, please add a zone and/or location to people ooc chat. This will both help limit the bullshit as WELL as increasing pvp. Double win.



Yes a thousand times to everything in this quote.

Labanen
04-10-2014, 05:40 AM
well written. I think you exclude one other key reason why the population is so low. And thats the community as such which is very negative and even toxic at times.

When there is talk about getting rid of ooc, its in order to make this fact less obvious to a new player, with the obvious tradeof that the server may appear quiet and dead.

There is no easy fix to this though, i was against global ooc, and i still am. I very rarely see it used for anything but "pras"'ing, trolling or selling items. The selling part is easily done through the forums, and the other two i think we can live without.

Still, with all this said, i think we gotta live with global ooc a bit longer, as its the only illusion of human interaction a new player will see, its not a good time to get rid of it. If the population increases i hope we can get rid of it though.

Could be fun to reroll everyone to level 10 with the velious launch. Let people keep their gear, and have massive pvp fests in the levelling zones. As nothing comes after velious on this server, there is no rush to get through it as fast as possible. Would fuck any actual newbies up a bit though i suppose, but damn it could be fun.

BeautBabeC
04-10-2014, 06:06 AM
A better version of removing anon/role is just taking out /who so you never know who is in the same zone as you

Tassador
04-10-2014, 07:37 AM
No one fucking does cliff notes anymore.

Squire
04-10-2014, 08:03 AM
And not a single tl dr, so far

Red, im so proud of us right now.

Fawqueue
04-10-2014, 08:35 AM
this thread gotta be a joke
i mean who the fuck would seriously take the time to write us a novel about what i assume is a bunch of opinions on what would make server better?
OP get paid by the word on some dickens shit?

Ignore this OP. Cabin fever from being in one zone for too long has him cranky. Veterans and staff could benefit from first-hand experiences by a newcomer. We all the want the server to thrive.

Tassador
04-10-2014, 10:07 AM
Red players getting sensitive as shit

LulzSect
04-10-2014, 10:53 AM
http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/wsg/image/1384/51/1384517184337.gif

sunmilk
04-10-2014, 10:55 AM
I don't really see the point of this. Twinks running around with fungi tunics and epics: Why make the meaningless deaths caused by these characters even more time consuming? There is already an additional exp penalty imposed upon any new player that has to deal with twinks. Being corpse camped, or calling LNS, are both equally disruptive. You're devoting time to CR's or being forced to leave a zone with a decent ZEM. This isn't two players, or even groups of players, duking it out over desirable camps. It's one player--with no intention of leveling--disrupting the exp grind of another player.

"Pvp happens on a pvp server." It does. But, it seems incredibly counter productive to the goal of establishing a growing server population when the obvious answer to the low numbers issue is an exp bonus. We're assuming that easier exp will make more people want to play here, yet we tolerate individuals dumping unreasonable amounts of time and plat into low level alts for the purpose of griefing new players.

Some twinks are decent about it and don't wait for an LNS to be called. They get their YT and move on. Others, though, will invoke some bazaar sense of ownership over a zone and stay as long as necessary to ensure that no one in range is taking advantage of its superior exp. I think this is probably the number one reason why those who do come to Red don't stay very long. As was made evident by the group who quit after being stomped last month by some SK twinks. I personally can put up with the face rolling some of these characters are capable of dishing out. But, I'm one person to the four or five others who quit. That's just bad math if the goal is to retain new players.

tl,dr: Exp loss on pvp death is unnecessary. You are already losing a considerable amount of time through CRs and camp relocation. Problem is compounded by grief twinks who log on when mains get stomped in 60 pvp.

All of this is understandable, and without going to great lengths I'll just say that I agree mostly with what you are saying: adding in exp loss on death would certainly be more of a deterring force, rather than an attracting one. I am somewhat trying to play devil's advocate here -- I played on SZ during classic where there were literally 0 rules when it came to pvp. Understandably, most people don't really enjoy, CCing, bind-camping, delvling people, corpse-rotting, training, and the likes. I simply suggested the possibility of this change (exp loss on pvp death) to be considered if they added in bonus exp... as a way to still give players bonus exp, but provide a more "classic" death to the players. LnS is a pretty much as carebear as you can get on a pvp server, I don't really see why people don't utilize it more. All I see is people posting videos about dying on corpse runs after being stubborn and refusing to call LNS and instead just rushing from bind point. Pretty sure if people were losing exp on pvp death, they'd think twice before complacently waddling back for their corpse.

But again, to reiterate... I am sort of playing devil's advocate here. I don't actually think this server (or the majority of people who may be interested in this server in the near future) would vote for/appreciate exp loss on pvp death. Just providing ideas to the community/developers, largely because I am not exactly sure what you guys or the devs want, or their reasoning behind giving or rescinding exp bonus.

Thanks for the thought-out response!

sunmilk
04-10-2014, 10:57 AM
No one fucking does cliff notes anymore.

I did a double tldr for kind souls like yourself. Each concisely captures the main points of the monstrous OP.

sunmilk
04-10-2014, 11:02 AM
A better version of removing anon/role is just taking out /who so you never know who is in the same zone as you

I am not exactly the best way to encourage pvp interaction on server by altering role/anon, nor do I know if there exists and easy-fix (ie coding) that would allow anything like this to happen.

I have played both sides of the pvp game, as I'm sure all of you have. Sometimes you are obsessively checking your zone (or just have /who bound to a movement key, etc), praying to fucking god that someone doesn't zone in and merc you while you're grinding dat sweet exp or camping random-shitty-drop-rate-item-#151213. Other times, you are on the prowl trying to imagine where on earth those slimy cunts you share the server with are holed up, guarding their anuses.

Or I guess you can be like Chewie and just have all of your characters logged off in the same zone. Let pvp come to you like some sorta trap door spidah. But you guys know what I mean... it can be a total bitch to find people in game when you are really on the hunt for some corned beef.

By removing /who from the game, you would not actually be able to see who is in your zone, which would just make finding people to pvp even more difficult I think. It is still kind of surprising to me that whatever server it was that removed /anon and /role actually enjoyed *reduced* pvp interaction by utilizing the /who function liberally.p

Just trying to increase population and pvp here, thanks for the helpful input to the discussion.

Ames who?
04-10-2014, 12:10 PM
Skimmed replies til i saw my name... fyi I camp alts in over a dozen zones, guk just happens to get the most publicity. How else would I be able to say with such unwavering certainty that server is dead?

r.i.p billy mays