Why is Rog hide same as invis/ivu?

[4WOFURY]

I noticed in the July 2013 patch that Rog hide was made to be the same as invis/ivu. I'm not sure why though? When I started on p99 in 12/12, rogue hide was as I remembered it; better than invis where only select mobs could see through it, not just everything that saw invis.

This makes rogue hide pointless, and even worse than someone who has invis/ivu cast on them, as it has a snare effect.

I don't see any patch notes where hide was nerfed on the classic time line, or made better, and I remember at least during the Kunark/Velious era sneaking all the way through SolB to Nagafen's door; past kobolds and LDCs (though Nagafen did see through hide, and upon being spotted, made for a fun run out of the lair so I didn't die! Giants were usually down and farmed for their loot)

I have no "proof" like a patch note saying it was made better, because it was never bad to begin with. Only thing I see is on http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:Rogue which states :

Additionally, mobs that would normally see a character using a spell or potion are much less likely to see a sneak/hidden rogue.

Allakhazam even notates which mobs see invis, and which go further and see hide; as did the p99 wiki.

This does appear to have been written during the PoP era, though it mentions Shroud of Stealth making hide even more powerful, not that hide was the same as regular invis before hand, and again, I have not been able to find any patch notes notating it had been improved/degraded from a previous state.


Also, I have not yet reached level 60, though in talking to some other rogues I see that the snare effect of sneak is still somewhat noticable even at that level. My remembrance of classic was that the snare was removed, and you could run freely even while sneaking. Again, this was written during PoP era, but it specifically mentions level 60:

At level 51, you begin to speed up (gradually with each level) to an unnoticable difference at level 60.

I'm open to being shown I'm wrong, but otherwise, I don't understand why the hide nerf and sneak-speed reduction at 60 are in place.

Thanks

[4WOFURY]

At www.thesafehouse.org (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2855), and written on March 31, 2000:

List of Creatures That Can See Through Hide
Dragons (Vox and Nagafen)
Fire Giants
Scorn Banshees
Lichs
Loathing Lichs
Evil Eyes
Huge Elemental (Lower Guk)

[Supaskillz]

I actually remember it being ivu+invis, but I both suck at finding evidence and am too lazy to try.

I know for certain in doing CRs in seb I had to carefully follow pathers at times and at times poorly placed see invis mobs made it impossible and we had to use a necro. That obviously doesn't prove that see invis mobs all see rogues, but it at least suggests to me it was OP on this server for a time.

[Supaskillz]

Also one of your quoted evidence is way out of time frame for this server. That link shows races that don't exist yet as options for rogues in that rogue guide. I didn't play past velious on live so I have little info on what changed and when, but at the very least that link is not good evidence.

Sneak is near full speed at lvl 60, ~90% full speed. There is a big jump from 59 to 60 in speed. Unsure if this is accurate, but I imagine it is hard to find reliable evidence on something so subjective as how much slower/faster.

[4WOFURY]

Allakhazam link is evidence that hide > invis/ivu, excluding there being any patch post-Luclin stating an upgrade.

As stated, that was written during PoP era with mention of SoS even further improving hide (I used to camp out with Naggy, we were pals after SoS), mention of Vah Shir (Luclin), etc. PoP was only two expansions after Velious, and not a lot of time between the two for a major change like that to Hide without there being a patch note.

[4WOFURY]

Thank you for taking the time to view the link, however.

[Teako]

Played rogue through classic.. Not going to dig up citing, but I remember sneak/hiding down through LGuk to get my guise.. The gargoyles DEFINITELY saw hide, but no frog at all did; live or dead. Not even Frenzy/King/Ass/Sup/Magi - Although I do think the Magi's pet could see through it, peculiar enough.

I do also remember sneak/hide crawling to King camp in Seb a few times.. Never once was in danger of threat unless I somehow got completely fumbled and lost, and walked into Protector.. Juggs didn't see hide, but Prot definitely did.. and I remember doing that CR a few times.. ugh. painful memories.

Seem to recall borderline everything not seeing it, and very select named mobs catching you through it.. Signature-esque named mobs, pets, and Evil Eyes were about all that would catch you.

Here.. Shit, you're better off just not sneak/hiding.

(P.S. - I quit a month into Luclin.. Most of my gaming was server-relative time frame)

[Cecily]

There's no question it's wrong. Plane of Hate being the prime example. Loathing Lichs and Scorn Banshees are the only things in Hate, excluding raid encounters, which should see rogues. Lichs still don't see us, btw, and the revs / spites absolutely should not. I can't even recommend that rogues quest their Book of Souls solo on P99, and from me that's saying alot.

[Ravager]

There's no question it's wrong. Plane of Hate being the prime example. Loathing Lichs and Scorn Banshees are the only things in Hate, excluding raid encounters, which should see rogues. Lichs still don't see us, btw, and the revs / spites absolutely should not. I can't even recommend that rogues quest their Book of Souls solo on P99, and from me that's saying alot.

On live, unguilded, green and not knowing a damn thing about what I was doing I bought a port to Hate and had no problems sneaking up and getting my book. After the nerf on this server, I won't try it without a raid, but mostly because I'm too cheap to recharge my cap if it looks like I'm not going to make it. You don't make a lot of plat only leveling alts.

[SyanideGas]

There's no question it's wrong. Plane of Hate being the prime example. Loathing Lichs and Scorn Banshees are the only things in Hate, excluding raid encounters, which should see rogues. Lichs still don't see us, btw, and the revs / spites absolutely should not. I can't even recommend that rogues quest their Book of Souls solo on P99, and from me that's saying alot.

I could have swore lich's could see through my hide a couple weeks ago, spites ive noticed for sure which is awk.

[casdegere]

Played rogue through classic.. Not going to dig up citing, but I remember sneak/hiding down through LGuk to get my guise.. The gargoyles DEFINITELY saw hide, but no frog at all did; live or dead. Not even Frenzy/King/Ass/Sup/Magi - Although I do think the Magi's pet could see through it, peculiar enough.

I do also remember sneak/hide crawling to King camp in Seb a few times.. Never once was in danger of threat unless I somehow got completely fumbled and lost, and walked into Protector.. Juggs didn't see hide, but Prot definitely did.. and I remember doing that CR a few times.. ugh. painful memories.

Seem to recall borderline everything not seeing it, and very select named mobs catching you through it.. Signature-esque named mobs, pets, and Evil Eyes were about all that would catch you.

Here.. Shit, you're better off just not sneak/hiding.

(P.S. - I quit a month into Luclin.. Most of my gaming was server-relative time frame)

Having a Rogue since April 1999 and being a broken class at the time, I still remembered going down into Lower Guk to get a Guise myself. I also did CRs in Chardok, HS and Hate after Kunark Release.

[4WOFURY]

Any GM/Dev thoughts on this?

[Byrjun]

The way I understand it from evidence others have found, hide was nerfed a bit when the SoS AA was introduced to give people a reason to get that AA, people saw others complaining that mob x and mob y then saw through hide, that got extrapolated to mean that hide was the same as invis in classic, and now we have useless hide.

So now, a rogue with sneak/hide is inferior to every other class in the game who has a Ring of Shadows on them. Masters of stealth indeed.

Also barely noticed sneak allowing me to move any faster from 51-60, pretty sure that's not very accurate either.

[khanable]

Dig up more evidence and post in the bug section

[SamwiseRed]

i didnt play main rogue on live but i remember making a level 1 rogue to do CRs in the hole.

[Vega]

Any GM/Dev thoughts on this?

It seems like there was a thread (or multiple threads) about this in the bug section already, with people posting similar evidence. I can't find the big one at the moment, but I don't remember there being much resolution to it.

[SamwiseRed]

Rogean mained a rogue on live ask him.

[Adolphus]

It's never been done correctly on this server. I'm actually weary to complain more about it though, as sneak is actually in a decent state right now. Considering how bad it's been for years I'm not going to take what we've got now for granted.

Just look what happens when they experiment trying to fix things - we've got mobs warping and jumping all over the place in multi-level'd dungeons from last patch.

It's been my experience over the years to be careful what I wish for regarding changes, as the live server is the beta for all changes. They don't really test things before trying them out.

(I should add that this is a volunteer endeavor, so I'm not blaming developers or upset, just stating the reality of the situation)

[HippoNipple]

Lets get this working properly. PvPing in dungeons is a big reason I made a rogue and it is a disappointment right now. Regretting not making a Monk to just run through zone and fd to get where I need to be.

[thieros]

You don't make a lot of plat only leveling alts.

RUN TELL DAT

[Donruss]

You do if they are other peoples alt's...

[4WOFURY]

I can't even sneak through SolA, a low level zone, without being attacked every few feet...

[4WOFURY]

Any more input?

[Juevento]

I've given up on this fight. I used to submit a petition everyday after the patch broke rogue hide.

There was no evidence presented to change the way it was. Only gleeful staff members saying something about more dead rogues.

[Ele]

I've given up on this fight. I used to submit a petition everyday after the patch broke rogue hide.

There was no evidence presented to change the way it was. Only gleeful staff members saying something about more dead rogues.

Petition? Everyday? Seriously?

Use the bug report forum.

[kaos057]

Rogue hide/sneak was the same as invis and ivu with the slower walking. The benefit was it didnt break randomly. When SoS was added as an AA in luclin it allowed you to hide/sneak at full speed.

[4WOFURY]

Rogue hide/sneak was the same as invis and ivu with the slower walking. The benefit was it didnt break randomly. When SoS was added as an AA in luclin it allowed you to hide/sneak at full speed.

This entire statement is false.

The evidence I posted shows that not only was sneak/hide better than invis/ivu in regards to what mobs could see through it, but also that the snare effect wore off through levels 51-60 gradually.

Shroud of Stealth was introduced with Planes of Power at level 63, and was an even more enhanced version of sneak/hide. With it, no classic mob period could see through hide; I remember having screen shots of sitting next to Nagafen, though those are long gone. This is irrelevant to the discussion however.

Shroud of Stealth (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:Shroud_of_Stealth)

[Scrubosaur]

I am playing a rogue now and reading about the fact that see invis mobs also see rogues in hide/sneak is a disappointment. I remember rogues being used to pull corpses all the time in Seb and Chardok. I definitely don't remember ever hearing a rogue say "can't make it to camp, see invis in the way".

[Pudge]

as an SK, i'd like to mention my hide is broken as well. my hide is not racial, it is class based. this means it should be the same as a rogues, except no sneak/moving. currently, I only get "invis" like the rest of the non-rogue bunch.

[4WOFURY]

This has been put into the bug forums, with a link back to here.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149325

[Scrubosaur]

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2855

This pretty much sums it up and how it should be on p99. Good find.

[4WOFURY]

as an SK, i'd like to mention my hide is broken as well. my hide is not racial, it is class based. this means it should be the same as a rogues, except no sneak/moving. currently, I only get "invis" like the rest of the non-rogue bunch.

Other classes can hide as well. It is different than Rogue hide.

[Dragonmist]

It should have been fixed then thats for sure heh... I always remember rogues going in deep for corpse runs

[Teeroyoyort]

Something to add, I don't remember invis stacking with invis vs undead either. I remember getting messages like you're already invised when trying to stack.

[Scrubosaur]

Something to add, I don't remember invis stacking with invis vs undead either. I remember getting messages like you're already invised when trying to stack.

Little off topic but it all depended on which you cast first, but yes they stacked.

[Dragonmist]

Yea reg invis overrides ivu but if you get it then ivu they stack iirc I know on Live when I done my MMM Key the Hills of Shade part I used cleric group IVU when she was half way done casting I just hit insta shared camo on the ranger which stacked both invis on entire group.

[4WOFURY]

Little off topic but it all depended on which you cast first, but yes they stacked.

Which makes Rogues main utility ability pointless, as everyone else can have the same effect without the snare.

[Shamalam]

Which makes Rogues main utility ability pointless, as everyone else can have the same effect without the snare.

Bumping because this is so obviously broken. If a rogue is better off just getting an invis/IVU to achieve the same level of stealth without the snare effect, something is not working right. Really hope this gets some more attention soon. I would like to play a rogue someday, but not if their class-defining ability is completely broken.

[capco]

I definitely don't remember ever hearing a rogue say "can't make it to camp, see invis in the way".

It is embarrassing how many times I've had to say this at higher levels.

Some people know enough about mob pathing/LOS to get around it, but I do not have that kind of experience.

[4WOFURY]

Bumping because this is so obviously broken. If a rogue is better off just getting an invis/IVU to achieve the same level of stealth without the snare effect, something is not working right. Really hope this gets some more attention soon. I would like to play a rogue someday, but not if their class-defining ability is completely broken.

Right now, it's better to be a monk. You can get invis/ivu which is just as good if not better than hide/sneak in most scenarios, plus you can FD when something does see through it. DPS is fairly comparable. The only advantage a Rogue has right now is you can practically just ask for your epic.

What I don't understand, is that when I started on p99 in 2012, hide/sneak was working as it should, and as it did in classic. It was this patch (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114944) that mega-nerfed it, without any sort of reason.

Sunday, July 14th, 2013 (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114944)


Kanras: Rogue hide will function the same as invis + IVU stacked.
Kanras: Non-rogue (racial hide) will function the same as invis.
Kanras: Mobs that see through invis/IVU will similarly see through hide.

[4WOFURY]

It is embarrassing how many times I've had to say this at higher levels.

Some people know enough about mob pathing/LOS to get around it, but I do not have that kind of experience.

I have gotten decent at being able to make my way around Sebilis through patience, strafing, and positioning, but it shouldn't be like this.

[drktmplr12]

if you guys want to get this resolved, direct all discussion to the thread in the bug forums.

[Supaskillz]

Right now, it's better to be a monk. You can get invis/ivu which is just as good if not better than hide/sneak in most scenarios, plus you can FD when something does see through it. DPS is fairly comparable. The only advantage a Rogue has right now is you can practically just ask for your epic.

What I don't understand, is that when I started on p99 in 2012, hide/sneak was working as it should, and as it did in classic. It was this patch (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114944) that mega-nerfed it, without any sort of reason.

Sunday, July 14th, 2013 (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114944)

It was working too well. Rogue hide could not be seen anywhere in seb for example which is not classic. I think this may be closer to classic than it was. I am sure people other than myself( a rogue) did necro corpse summons at some point on live in seb.

[Shamalam]

It was working too well. Rogue hide could not be seen anywhere in seb for example which is not classic. I think this may be closer to classic than it was. I am sure people other than myself( a rogue) did necro corpse summons at some point on live in seb.

That's all well and good, but it is happening in classic zones, too. According to this post (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2855), NOTHING in SolA should see through hide, but people in this very thread are saying that isn't the case. Being from Kunark, I wouldn't be surprised if Seb was a little different, but at the very least we have solid evidence that it isn't working correctly in some classic zones.

[4WOFURY]

This is definitely far off from classic. If there were see-hide mobs in seb, those specific mobs should have been coded specifically. Not a global nerf on hide so that it is a useless skill.

It was working too well.

Donal's BP is working too well. It isn't nerfed yet, because it wouldn't be classic to do so.

The post from thesafehouse.org was created March/2000, which is post kunark, during Velious. It doesn't mention anything of any see-hide mobs in seb.

I'm not arguing that nothing in seb should see invis. I would bet it is notated on eq.allakhazam.com which mobs see invis, and which see through hide.

I would expect that trakanon sees through hide, lol

[Tulnavara]

The wizards in Seb saw through hide in Velious era on live. More than once walking to crypt/disco I would get caught by a random see hide mob and have to book it to the ZL. If you had speed you could generally sneak past them without aggroing since sneak definitely DID lower their aggro radius but if you caught too close and timing was bad they'd get you.