New raid rule - whats everyones feeling on this?

[botrainer]

A new raid rule id like see discussed some is Trackers not being pullers too.

It appears some guilds fully exploit this by monk face tracking mobs one eating DT other wirldwind until support can arrive...awhile also causing massive amount of training at others in the zone. Im confused how trains make it to the zone in. but it something I wanna see discussed.

[Pheer]

some people just like to poop in socks man

[botrainer]

Its just something that should be discussed. Using the tracker to face track and pull as well takes the race part out of it all(which is why new raid rules were enforced to start with).

Since FTE messages makes guilds back up some with raid bans easily handed out no one wants to violate the rules with FTE but manipulating a way to get FTE messages should be a clear violation. As the 2 people tagging the mob is NOT a force to kill the mob but a way to stall for 30 to 40 seconds until help shows up. This should be illegal and treated as such the 3 FFA Innys Ive been on have worked just like this.

I could be misunderstanding the whole reason why only 2 trackers are to be in zone when mob spawns but I feel using the trackers to earn FTE massages is manipulating the rules to gain an advantage.

[Nietche]

The new rules don't help the low tiered guilds. The only thing Class R guilds get is a shot at stuff they could never take in a FFA or Class C scenario. In fact, the way the Class C scenario goes with one of two guilds' taking the dragon dis-incentivizes any ambition of Class R guilds to even try to become Class C status because all Class R guilds know that once they become Class C, they'll never get a shot at any dragon again, ever.

This isn't a flame. It's pretty much a fact. Class R guilds are incentivized to stay that way because at least they'll get a decent shot at something in a given week.

My first paragraph is intended to show the staff that if their intention was to level the playing field, you respectfully failed. All you did was incentivize the lower tiered guilds to stay that way (i.e., not progress) and incentivize the top end guilds to acquire as many members as possible to provide a "zerg force" every Saturday. Worse, now that we can plan for nearly all dragons to respawn every Saturday, top end guilds can plan to get their zerg forces online 1 day a week. Even Class R guilds who have ambitions to become a Class C guild will never get a Trakanon, which is the premier gateway to VP.

This is not to say that so-called Class R guilds had a chance at a Trakanon before (except maybe BDA), but it is to say that if the intent of the new raid rules was to make the raid scene better--by increasing the capacity for low tiered guilds to have a shot at high end, I don't think that intent came to fruition. Nor do I think it will.

That being said, I agree with the OP, given the current raid rules, regarding not allowing a tracker to also take an FTE for the guild knowing that they can buy the said guild a couple of minutes or more (Fay, Sev, and balcony VP dragons) while they port/log in. In this case, there is no race. It's whomever is fastest on the jav.

I think where we have 207 people in zone covering about 5 guilds for a Sev pop that not allowing face trackers to take an FTE would be a good start to promoting a sense that Class R guilds actually have a chance. The two Class C guilds who have been vying for FTE against other guilds for years (and are thus more practiced at the poop socking while clicking a jav button repeatedly) are likely never going to give up a FFA dragon unless they just don't show up.

[Squire]

raid rules?

roll on red, pvp for mobs.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Its just something that should be discussed. Using the tracker to face track and pull as well takes the race part out of it all(which is why new raid rules were enforced to start with).

Since FTE messages makes guilds back up some with raid bans easily handed out no one wants to violate the rules with FTE but manipulating a way to get FTE messages should be a clear violation. As the 2 people tagging the mob is NOT a force to kill the mob but a way to stall for 30 to 40 seconds until help shows up. This should be illegal and treated as such the 3 FFA Innys Ive been on have worked just like this.

I could be misunderstanding the whole reason why only 2 trackers are to be in zone when mob spawns but I feel using the trackers to earn FTE massages is manipulating the rules to gain an advantage.

IB pulled tal with 7 in zone. IB duo'd dracoliche with their trackers. IB javspammed PD just like we did for like 5 hours. Not sure there's really a way around this if FTE is still going to be a thing ~

[Nietche]

IB pulled tal with 7 in zone. IB duo'd dracoliche with their trackers. IB javspammed PD just like we did for like 5 hours. Not sure there's really a way around this if FTE is still going to be a thing ~

Guilds didn't always used to use face trackers, you know. TMO, for instance, only used a face tracker for one dragon and that was because Fay was a million miles from Ogre Island. If TMO ever face tracked in VP (TMO did sometimes), those face trackers were not used to immediately FTE. BP's were sent; people logged on; pullers ran up; etc.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Guilds didn't always used to use face trackers, you know. TMO, for instance, only used a face tracker for one dragon and that was because Fay was a million miles from Ogre Island. If TMO ever face tracked in VP (TMO did sometimes), those face trackers were not used to immediately FTE. BP's were sent; people logged on; pullers ran up; etc.

It was, until PD got super competitive here the last few months. Once javspam began, everything else started falling into place.

[Nietche]

It was, until PD got super competitive here the last few months. Once javspam began, everything else started falling into place.

Yeah it's progressively gotten worse. I remember when TMO didn't even log at trak when it was in window. They raced from KC.

[Nietche]

This is actually a thought-->making everyone race from KC haha.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Yeah it's progressively gotten worse. I remember when TMO didn't even log at trak when it was in window. They raced from KC.

Speaking of, the fact that we can't log in at ledge is ridiculous ><

[Nietche]

Speaking of, the fact that we can't log in at ledge is ridiculous ><

I definitely agree.

[Nietche]

Vying guilds should be allowed to xp in zone as well.

[Daldaen]

When boss X spawns, all players in zone are evac'd to zoneline. None may log into the zone for 5minutes after spawn.

[botrainer]

Im talking about the manipulation of a rule to give one guild an advantage over another that needs to be addressed. Im talking about the fact of tagging to get FTE (reguardless if the 2 there can kill the mob) in order to keep it fair over one another. Im just reading and understanding the rules as they are placed before. Im not one to sit and say ok these are the rules how can we manipulate them to gain an advantage over everyone else...then play stupid if busted.

Here is where i got my hang up on it, and where the manipulation comes into play.

You face track with NON Tracking classes, but stay within the rule set of the following rule: Guilds may not have any more than two representatives present at a raid spawn location.

Mob spawns, you spam zone check once the number hits about 20 to 30 players in zone, you then manipulate the following rule: All raid mobs provide an "FTE Shout" that show what guild has engaged. Kill stealing will be severely disciplined.

While ALSO breaking the following rule at the same time: Invulnerability spells used on engagement may only be for mechanic strategies, and may not be used to stall engagement.

This sort of behavior has to be punished no matter HOW briefly the rules is being abused or manipulated. Im just floored that the GM staff fails to see this...OR rubs it off as oh they were pulling it. There is no other logical reason you use a monk or SK to "track" a mob other then gain the FTE message. Its abuse of the rules, and IMO (no matter what guild im a part of) a manipulated move the P99 staff has to stop.

[mrproudbeard]

raid rules?

roll on red, pvp for mobs.

Keep up the good work guys, we want you guys to have fun which is why we gave you Trakanon. PRas lite, I begged him to give you guys 1 dragon and he gave in.


Sounds like it!

[Ella`Ella]

I originally proposed that all guilds start/camp out at WC spires for all encounters. I forgot who actually shot that idea down, but since I can't remember, I blame Chest.

[Daldaen]

I originally proposed that all guilds start/camp out at WC spires for all encounters. I forgot who actually shot that idea down, but since I can't remember, I blame Chest.

I like this. Camping in zone is lame. But this is a lot harder to police I'm guessing.

[arsenalpow]

I originally proposed that all guilds start/camp out at WC spires for all encounters. I forgot who actually shot that idea down, but since I can't remember, I blame Chest.

I blame Chest too.

[quido]

Chest's mom got raped by Henry Rollins.

[Sckrilla]

Chest's mom got raped by Henry Rollins.
Chest's mom is Gemma Teller?

[Tasslehofp99]

Chest's mom is Gemma Teller?

lol

[Circa.]

Those liberals though, cry until they get their way. Want equality but don't want to put the work in.

[Frug]

some people just like to poop in socks man

you say this like it's bad.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Those liberals though, cry until they get their way. Want equality but don't want to put the work in.

http://media.salon.com/2013/08/rush_limbaugh5.jpg

[Frug]

http://bycommonconsent.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/beck-main-e1302190402969.jpg

[Brut]

FFA Inny should be done away with altogether since 150~ players in the zone makes it an unbearable lagfest of doom. And let's not forget that figuring out who trained who is impossible with the way aggro works and chains there. Just skip FFA on it and make it alternate R and C, imo.

I thought FTE stalling for extended periods was already prohibited in the new raid rules btw?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

FFA Inny should be done away with altogether since 150~ players in the zone makes it an unbearable lagfest of doom. And let's not forget that figuring out who trained who is impossible with the way aggro works and chains there. Just skip FFA on it and make it alternate R and C, imo.

I thought FTE stalling for extended periods was already prohibited in the new raid rules btw?

Depends. Allowed one DA for positioning, and as long as you're taking damage you can consider it a slow engage (soulfires on VS, etc.)

[Brut]

Aka the usual rules stretching, kk.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

IB pulled tal with 7 in zone. IB duo'd dracoliche with their trackers. IB javspammed PD just like we did for like 5 hours. Not sure there's really a way around this if FTE is still going to be a thing ~

[Khaleesi]

Make it so contested raid mobs(boss or otherwise) cannot be tracked(or show in track windows). No more tracking means people just have to be at the right place at the right time and the only guarantee there is server reset/respawns.

Not ideal, but completely removes several issues right away.

[Smalls]

TMO's reaction to any change in raid rules:

http://videogamesftvms2014.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/9b5.jpg?w=428&h=283

[Fael]

1. OP. How does the current fte situation, or "manipulation" or exploitation" as you call it, give one guild any unfair advantage over another? Are we seriously to the point of declaring that a melee class using a Discs is "exploiting"? You people been playing a game of wackamole with supposed manipulations (also known as intended game designs) in this quest to find an excuse as to why you lose dragons more often than the next guy. Its getting ridiculous.

2. Nietche. You said, "where we have 207 people in zone covering about 5 guilds for a Sev pop that not allowing face trackers to take an FTE would be a good start to promoting a sense that Class R guilds actually have a chance." How does having the FTE people start at the zone line make it any more fair? It still boils down to a race for FTE, this time only with bards rather than face trackers. If anything this helps guilds with larger numbers, more bard alts, etc. It probably lessens the chance a class R guild comes up with a fte. Perhaps we should eliminate face tracking fte, eliminate bards fte'ing, we already dont like DA engages, eye engages, no ranger or any tracking classes for that matter. New rule: when mob spawns, only pure melee classes, or int casters may run blindly through EJ to get FTE. Yeah. That'll make it fair and give Class R a true shot, somehow, maybe.

3. Nietche. Comparing operating procedures within VP from times before the raid changes when you could train inside VP and when spawn windows where larger is borderline disingenuous. Apples and oranges.

4. Personally i think the whole idea of limiting repops to one day a week is just dumb in general. Variance should be increased for many of the merbs. Spread this stuff out.

Dolic

[Freakish]

Make all the outdoor dragons randomly spawn anywhere in zone.
Make them untrackable.
Make them shout whatever their engage message is when they pop. Trackers see the shout and everyone runs around like idiots until they run into him.
Fay will be fun!

[Ennewi]

Raid scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Wih7Q0DVs)

[sanforce]

4. Personally i think the whole idea of limiting repops to one day a week is just dumb in general. Variance should be increased for many of the merbs. Spread this stuff out.

Dolic

I agree, spread these fucking mobs out. Who thought it was a good idea to stack everything on Saturday? All sense of competition is completely gone, it basically boils down to the guilds that can form the fastest responding saturday/sunday zergs. There is no fun in this current setup. Regulate less, increase the fun for all.

[Ella`Ella]

I originally suggested that if we're reducing variances we need to keep extended windows or remove ext windows and increase variances. I forgot who shot that idea down so, I blame Chest.

[salimoneus]

This is the problem with trying to convert a true shared-world environment into a more instance-like environment merely by throwing a book of rules an restrictions at it. There will continuously be a need to invent new rules when the old ones are worked around.

[Splorf22]

I originally proposed that all guilds start/camp out at WC spires for all encounters. I forgot who actually shot that idea down, but since I can't remember, I blame Chest.

This was my idea, Unbrella! I wanted raid mobs to banish anyone who didn't have a 'mobilization flag' which would only be gained through going through any classic zone with druid or wizard spires. And truthfully, I don't think it's a solution. People would just camp out COH mages and evaccers and everyone would get 1 coh across DL and another across TT and another to the Trakanon ledge.

I also am willing to admit that I misjudged the raid scene a bit during the negotiations. I was primarily concerned with making sure that Class R got a piece of the pie without having to resort to this kind of thing, and I do think the R guilds have benefited from the new rules, but I'm starting to think the Class C guilds got the shaft (and not just because they had to watch casual scum in the tunnels with epics).

I've been trying the Class C life for a bit and to my surprise it's actually much worse than it was 2 years ago when I was in Vesica Dei. I was willing to do some batphoning (I work from home now) and I thought I might enjoy playing a raid monk more than a raid warrior or raid enchanter, but in practice all of the pulls are done by the trackers, and since sitting there spamming target nearest mob and ranged attack for hours at a time isn't my idea of a good time, I'm kind of fucked there (inb4 retards talking about how I am obviously not dedicated enough).

Unfortunately, I think the root cause of this problem is that the content simply isn't hard enough. As a result, whoever gets there first wins, and 95% of the effort is getting there first via tracking and parking alts and so on. Sirken had a vicarious heart attack for Nilbog after I suggested toughening up Kunark mobs, but at least Velious will be helpful there, with more difficult encounters and more of them.

At this point, I think the only true method of competition is repops. A good start would be to have 4 repops a week (but with 50% loot, so about what we have now) and eliminate the normal spawns. Throw in the mobilization zones and we might have something that doesn't totally suck even without Velious.

[Grydworn]

Point is, there is no hard Mob left in game. All thouse 32k Mobs are Victims, no matter what. So at this moment every guild simply should facetrack with their two Monks till other solutions come on the table.

[Fountree]

1. OP. How does the current fte situation, or "manipulation" or exploitation" as you call it, give one guild any unfair advantage over another? Are we seriously to the point of declaring that a melee class using a Discs is "exploiting"? You people been playing a game of wackamole with supposed manipulations (also known as intended game designs) in this quest to find an excuse as to why you lose dragons more often than the next guy. Its getting ridiculous.



/thread. I dare BDA to come at this lol.

Their response would probably be to change the game code itself to make things "fairer". Eliminate discs in raid settings! These people continue to be dumb as rocks and crybabies.

[Daldaen]

Can we all agree using SoulFires on raids is stupid and should be removed.

*Unless Paladin, then it's legit.

[Fountree]

Can we all agree using SoulFires on raids is stupid and should be removed.

*Unless Paladin, then it's legit.

Why is it stupid? I've never gotten a soulfire for any of my raid chars but if you're gonna quest that it's fair game IMO. Since its no drop i don't know if it can be exploited to a degree comparable to an ivandyrs hoop or something. Every guild has equal access and ability to complete the soulfire quest, so in my opinion its fair.

[Daldaen]

Every character has access to lots of things that are stupid. Accessibility doesn't change the fact that having 5 charges of instant complete-heal totally trivialize certain engages. And it allows a single player (in conjunction with other clickies like mallet or bladestopper) to self "tank" while 30 people camped at zone line beeline for the mob in hopes they get on aggro before the FTEer runs out of clickies.

It may not be rechargeable, but it is just as stupid as hoops or chain pets.

[Fael]

1. Daldean. I think using soul fires to kill a mob is pretty weak, not because its exploitative, but you shouldn't need to resort to soul fires to beat the mobs we are fighting. It is just a weak tactic. But if you really need to do it to give yourself a chance, then by all means.

2. Fact of the matter is, what mobs are we talking about that are getting engaged early for purposes of holding on until the calvary arives?

1. No out door dragon.
2. No VP dragon.
4. Not CT.
5. Draco can be duo'd so I dont see how he is relevant here.
6. This happened with DA idols on trak, but not now with soul fires, etc.

This entire thread is about two mobs: Inny and VS. Yet, out of all the times in the last few months that inny and vs were engaged in this method, I bet only 1 or 2 times it was effective.

Even the one thread about VS getting FTE by a warrior and cleric tracker was bogus. The tank engaged 2 mins after pop, and ran from the entrance to engage.

People need to quit finding excuses and just accept that you win some and loose some. Velious is the only answer at this point. Maybe you people should be on the test server helping there, rather than tryng to make arbitrary rules that you have no idea how they will play out in practice................

Theres 5 people testing velious....

Dolic

[Ella`Ella]

This was my idea, Unbrella!

IT WAS MY IDEA! MINE MINE MINE.

Class-R shot it down on the grounds that Class-C has a greater advantage in mobilizing from any location not just from within a zone. The logic there still boggles me, but then again, I blame Chest.

[Daldaen]

WC requirement would be cool.

Or at the very least, any Druid ring or wizard spire. So that you need to port and run. Dunno how to deal with the Dreadlands conundrum though.

[Goobles]

This is why you should roll on Red.
<Uprising> is recruiting.

[Arteker]

more and more the label of this server clasicness is slowly fadin under the moans and moans of players(wtf im saying players moans are legit )

[Hitpoint]

Do not like it. If any guild doesn't want to participate in this kind of tracking we should give them their own mobs. We could call it class R or something.

[Nietche]

I agree, spread these fucking mobs out. Who thought it was a good idea to stack everything on Saturday? All sense of competition is completely gone, it basically boils down to the guilds that can form the fastest responding saturday/sunday zergs. There is no fun in this current setup. Regulate less, increase the fun for all.

Agreed.

Is the competition to find out which 2 members from each guild sitting on a spawn point can /tar and then instant clicky a mob the fastest?

This kind of crap is limited (note: limited doesn't mean eschewed completely) with increased variance (like it was before).

I think I actually agree with Sakuragai (sp?) for the first time ever in that Class C guilds got the shaft. The raid scene is plain boring with the vast majority of repops occurring with regularity every Saturday. The guild who wins is the one with the fastest jav (who can rely on a very short window and thus can poopsock more easily) and who can throw a zerg force together fastest.

[radditsu]

I for one, enjoy our zerg raiding system.

[Exmo]

I think the Inny Engage was Silly, but am I the only one who isn't particularly worried about it? It was an FFA Mob, in the last 5 minutes of window on a weekend? Duh it was Heavily contested.

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be interesting to take the DT cooldown to like 10 seconds or something to make First in Force more do-able, but there's no real reason to do that. Class R still has Inny on Rotation, and we all knew from the Beginning that lots of the FFAs would go class C, in fact that was kind of the point.

Let's just wait for some mobs that can't be zerged down and enjoy our Vel loot.

[Scikala]

What I find confusing is the fact the game is fifteen years old and people bicker over the content like they are vying for world/server firsts.

My only interest in any sort of raid content would be to experience it since I was in High School on live and never really had the option to do anything but armor farm in NToV. I mean if you're only killing something for an epic piece to sell a MQ or get the armor to sell or something....you're kind of being a dick and putting a stranglehold on people for no reason other than greed.

But what do I know.

[Raavak]

And... Winter is coming. All this finger tapping on the keys is going to be moot, hopefully soon.

[Hitpoint]

am I the only one who isn't particularly worried about it? It was an FFA Mob, in the last 5 minutes of window on a weekend? Duh it was Heavily contested.

This guy gets it.

[botrainer]

I say Nerf the soulfire as it creates this well non contested field. Just creates a massive train fest while only one guild snags the mob. I thought trains were no longer allowed I guess training for no reason isn't allowed. I have yet to see a guild suspended for the training over some mobs....mostly the gods ct and inny.

I'd like some of the rules enforced of the ones that were placed...its a fancy idea I guess.

[Daldaen]

Problem with Inny and CT are figuring out who trained who is a clusterfuck.

They are more or less no CSR zones when those mobs are up. Since the CT strat for everyone is kite entire zone Zerg CT. And the Inny strat is Zerg Inny deal with trash after Inny is dead (IE Cap out and let those without cap or desynched deal with clean up).