Server Raid Rules - New and Improved

[nilbog]

The master Raid Policy Thread can be found Here (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14667).


Raid System

Thank you to everyone for your suggestions. We have taken bits and pieces from different aspects of your suggestions to try and build a system that we feel is fair. We want to promote fairness and competition. We understand that people are here for different reasons and you want to play your own way but it is important to follow these rules.

Players are encouraged to create whatever agreements and rules they wish, however, if there is a dispute, these server rules are the rules which will be binding and enforced by the GMs.

Spawn Variance

A variance of +/- 48 hours is in effect on the following: Lord Nagafen, Lady Vox, Cazic-Thule, Innoruuk.
A variance of +/- 24 hours is in effect on the following: Dracoliche, Maestro of Rancor.
*Phinigel will remain a static 12 hour spawn.

Raid Rules

You must respect other players and raid forces. If a raid force is at a raid target (within aggro range of the raid npc) before you, it is unacceptable to engage the npc or to interfere with their raid in any way before their raid wipes/succeeds. If that raid fails then you are free to take your shot and so on.

FAQ


Q: Can we continue to camp the raid mobs?
A: "Camping" of raid targets has completely changed. If you choose to lay a claim to an unspawned raid npc, your raid must be at the npc's spawn point with sufficient force. (within aggro range of the npc when it spawns, with at least a 15 member raid party). e.g. (inside Nagafen's Lair) This is the ONLY way claims of unspawned raid targets will be respected.

Q: Both raids got here simultaneously. What do we do?
A: In the rare case that both raids feel they got there first than you can work out a compromise on your own.

Q: Will the planes be open to everyone?
A: Yes. Please be respectful to your fellow players and respect their space. If there is a guild getting ready to raid Hate for some armor and they start pulling creatures, don't go up there and sit on top of them pulling mobs in their area as well. If Guild A is doing Hate, then perhaps Guild B should be doing Fear. Basically, don't be a douche bag.

Q: What if our raid is disrupted? What if our raid interferes with another raid?
A: Any non-consensual disturbance or meddling from a raid which leads to another raid being disrupted will result in very harsh punishments. Anyone involved in disruptions will be banned for 1 week with possible action against their guild's leadership. Second offenses will be 2 weeks. Further offenses will be permanent. It is the responsibility of the raid leaders to control their members. We strongly suggest that you avoid other raids while in a zone.

Q: How do we report another raid training or KSing?
A: It is the responsibility of the accusers to provide evidence that they were trained. Fraps works. Certain screenshots work. We strongly suggest that you have someone watching your back. Please have only one person, preferably an officer, gather all the required information, and post it in the petition forum. We do not like an entire guild petitioning about the same thing, and doing so will result in the situation being ignored.

Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn't classic!
A: While we strive to be as accurate as we can in terms of classic content, this is something that we feel is necessary to keep things running smooth. We believe the spawn variance method promotes both fairness and competition. Please note that we do not refresh the mob spawn times with a crash or patch. On live all raid targets re-spawned with a patch which usually caused bunches of raid targets to spawn. So on live Nagafen or Vox kills were not always exactly one week apart.

Q: Where can I deposit my tears?
A: As always your tears and crying of favoritism are important to us; for without you we couldn't possibly run things around there. You are the wind beneath my wings. Please direct your tears to the Petition/Exploit Forum or in extreme cases of hissy fits or conspiracy theories, Nilbog's Inbox.


These rules are subject to change, but after the next patch, they will be enforced.

Thank you.

[nilbog]

Bump. Enjoy.

[G13]

Q: Both raids got here simultaneously. What do we do?
A: In the rare case that both raids feel they got there first than you can work out a compromise on your own.

lol

[Brad_mo123]

What about CT? cant exactly stand on his spawn point with the zone repopping, thats a for sure wipe, grats on bullet proof rules :).

[Harrison]

You should just outright ban guilds from camping raid mobs, period.

None of this beating around the bush.

[yaaaflow]

This sounds like fun :)

[Jeice]

You should just outright ban guilds from camping raid mobs, period.

None of this beating around the bush.

even though this has changed and its not a requirment anymore, everyone will just sit and camp spawns. If your allowed to camp something, I think people should still beable to leapfrog you.

Granted this is alot better than previous bullshit rules. Thanks for changing it.

[rioisk]

*gets the popcorn ready*

[nilbog]

What about CT? cant exactly stand on his spawn point with the zone repopping, thats a for sure wipe, grats on bullet proof rules :).

That's the point. If you want to "camp" CT, good luck.

You should just outright ban guilds from camping raid mobs, period.

None of this beating around the bush.

Ban people for standing around a spawn point? I understand your sentiment, but you should understand these rules discourage camping in general, and make afk camping nearly impossible. It is a clarification of first to engage, unless sufficient force is present to kill the npc when it spawns. That sufficient force has to be prepared to fight the moment it spawns, because they are in its aggro range. I assume you would have a better chance at succeeding by not camping the npc, and waiting on the first raid to fail from afk-camping.


From what I have seen and heard, guilds say they don't need a complicated ruleset. Prove it please.

[Emoqq]

http://www.abceeds.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/popcorn.jpg

[nerfed]

So we can leap frog guilds clearing fear for CT right? Need zone / boss specific rules.

[Loke]

I personally have no problem with these new rules and prefer them to the old ones. I'd put away the popcorn though, because I don't think they're really going to change all that much. We'll see.

[Datante]

A what-if situation:

Guild A is sitting in SolB with a 15+ raid force. Guild B starts to enter the zone, so Guild A moves into a proper camping position within aggro radius of Nagafen's spawn point to claim rights to the mob.

Time passes. At some point Guild C and Guild D enter the zone.

When Nagafen spawns, the environment looks like this:
-Guild A is in aggro range (with 15 in the Lair, and another 15 or so outside the area, around the wall).
-Guild B, Guild C and Guild D all have 15+ in Tranix's throne room, not interfering with Guild A.

So, Guild A gets aggro (rightful, clear claim), but cannot hold aggro consistently due to AFKs (the idea was to pull Naggy back to the wall as per the common tactic). Small wipe of the first 15 near the spawn. Naggy resets. The other guilds rush forward.

Are all four guilds now free to aggro him and lay claim? How can they possibly tell who engages him first when 50 people zerg the dragon immediatey after the first guild temporarily loses aggro?

[Humwawa]

Perhaps we're expected to play civilly with each other. That's my guess.

[Webwolf]

So we will have less GM interference, less camping and more competition? FFA in a nutshell. I like it.

[Holey]

i know everyones going to rage.. :D

[Noleafclover]

That's the point. If you want to "camp" CT, good luck.

Aye, these raid rules a huge upgrade on CT. And don't get me wrong, they're certainly better than the last. Props for making a needed change, you guys are definitely showing you care/listen, and deserve credit for it. But but but (yes I know)


Ban people for standing around a spawn point?

Yes. Have rules that say they will get suspended. If it's illegal, it will stop getting done for the most part. And if not, they get suspended. Problem solved.

I mean I really don't get this, we're all anti-camping, and trying to think up ways to get rid of camping. Just. Say. No. Camping.

And then, like it has been, first w/ 15 in zone once something spawned have claim. Solves all the leapfrogging and same-time-pulling drama too. It's like a two-move checkmate. And back to tracking and racing.

And really, camping's not hard to prove (assuming people are eager for suspensions . . . . . .). SS of 10-25 people standing around in Sol B, even a /who of sol b along with SS's at efreeti, royals, bnb, window should do it, if they're f*cking super-invisible ninjas from outer space (which would be cool - and I think any changes should stipulate super-invisible ninjas from outer space are immune to suspensions).

EDIT: Not tryin to be confrontational, just to make my point.

[Noleafclover]

A what-if situation:

Guild A is sitting in SolB with a 15+ raid force. Guild B starts to enter the zone, so Guild A moves into a proper camping position within aggro radius of Nagafen's spawn point to claim rights to the mob.

Time passes. At some point Guild C and Guild D enter the zone.

When Nagafen spawns, the environment looks like this:
-Guild A is in aggro range (with 15 in the Lair, and another 15 or so outside the area, around the wall).
-Guild B, Guild C and Guild D all have 15+ in Tranix's throne room, not interfering with Guild A.

So, Guild A gets aggro (rightful, clear claim), but cannot hold aggro consistently due to AFKs (the idea was to pull Naggy back to the wall as per the common tactic). Small wipe of the first 15 near the spawn. Naggy resets. The other guilds rush forward.

Are all four guilds now free to aggro him and lay claim? How can they possibly tell who engages him first when 50 people zerg the dragon immediatey after the first guild temporarily loses aggro?

As spawn windows close (<5 hours), I think this certainly will happen (I don't think we'll all be polite and sit far far away in tranix's room =p).

But I think a player-made rule of FCFS at that point, just like at any restaurant or the DMV, or a dev addition of that (though it seems they want to keep it very simple) fixes the problem.

[Evorix]

Yes. Have rules that say they will get suspended. If it's illegal, it will stop getting done for the most part. And if not, they get suspended. Problem solved.

I mean I really don't get this, we're all anti-camping, and trying to think up ways to get rid of camping. Just. Say. No. Camping.

And then, like it has been, first w/ 15 in zone once something spawned have claim. Solves all the leapfrogging and same-time-pulling drama too. It's like a two-move checkmate. And back to tracking and racing.


Sooooo... you instead want people to camp outside the zone waiting for a mob to pop and rush to zone in to get 15 first???? If you end camping in a zone, people will just sit outside and wait for the call to zone in. It will change nothing except who gets the first SS of 15 of their guild in the zone.

[Noleafclover]

Sooooo... you instead want people to camp outside the zone waiting for a mob to pop and rush to zone in to get 15 first???? If you end camping in a zone, people will just sit outside and wait for the call to zone in. It will change nothing except who gets the first SS of 15 of their guild in the zone.

Your point's somewhat valid, my rules are not hugely better than the current because of it - unless you disallow camping in adjacents (not a huge hit, WI doesn't farm lava frequently, at least...) or make it first 15 to a certain distance from spawn (but that's hard to prove). But to me, even the quoted is preferred to first force back to keyboards to turn the corner. I think people may poopsock outside of the bosses, both get the texts, and try to engage at the same time (on current changes).

[spoolie]

These rules will change nothing except for CT.. just where we camp said raid mob. Can't wait to see the headache that comes from the CT pop.

[JaVeDK]

It seems to me that what some people fail to understand is that everything not stated in the rules is now FFA. I know it might be hard to grasp that there can be a system where not all occurrences are regulated by GM enforced rules, or it's exact opposite where everything is FFA.

This is a compromise. All these questions and "what if" scenarios are easily answered: If it does not fall under a specific rule, then it is up to you (your guild and the competing guilds) to come to an agreement, or choose not to.

At least that's how I understand it.

[Gwence]

It seems to me that what some people fail to understand is that everything not stated in the rules is now FFA. I know it might be hard to grasp that there can be a system where not all occurrences are regulated by GM enforced rules, or it's exact opposite where everything is FFA.

This is a compromise. All these questions and "what if" scenarios are easily answered: If it does not fall under a specific rule, then it is up to you (your guild and the competing guilds) to come to an agreement, or choose not to.

At least that's how I understand it.

if that's the case that's fun, but I doubt that's the case.

[Goobles]

3 day, 12 hour spawn variance imo. I maintain this stance.

[Humerox]

It seems pretty simple to me.

Doesn't matter how long you've been in the raid zone. The first guild to engage with a raid force has claim. FTE.

Doesn't address leapfrogging, though. Or come Velious will guilds find it necessary to park CoH mages all over the place?

Gonna be interesting, to say the least.

[Falindorf]

Well the way I see it is pretty simple. Everyone says ... We dont like Poopsocking ... We dont like camping ... We dont like ;Insert what ever here: however the only people that are going to be able to really change it are the guilds that do it. In reality there are only a few guild doing this and while they claim not to like it or agree with it they continue to do it. If the larger guild were really against this they would stop. Rule are put in place to try and help but the only thing that is going to change this are the Guild Leaders of the guilds that are doing this.


Project 1999 just like live is a community based game. If the community feels strong enough to change something they will. If they do not then its not going to change. It does not matter what the rules are because there are always ways around them. The rules may make it more difficult to do but they can´t really prevent it.

Now if the community felt strongly enough about this they could police themselves. If the members of Dancing Dickbeaters really decided they did not want to poop sock then the resolution is simple. They tell the guild leader If we poop sock we are leaveing the guild and creating a new guild called Dicking Dancebeaters then Dancing Dickbeaters would not longer poopsock.

With this if the community felt strongly enough about it to completly shun anyone in a guild that poopsocked it will also help. Everyone says Dancing Dickbeaters is the Uber guild and they dont care if they are shunned but this is not the fact imho. People migrate to the uber guild to get the uber loot and be the best of the best of the best sir because they like being seen that way. If no one in the community will have anything to do with them. Do port them. Dont buy thier items. Dont talk to them. Dont group with them and thier alts. Dont accept them into other guilds when they leave. This also would start forcing a change. Would it prevent all the people from doing it no. Would it prevent enough people from doing it as to weaken the raid force of the offending guild yes.

The problem is that we as a community do not pressure the offenders to stop what they are doing. Guilds will cry and say We have to Poopsock because Dancing Dickbeaters are poopsockin and if we dont we wont get the uber loots. Its just a self perpetuating pile of horse shit imho.

[Bumamgar]

Sooooo... you instead want people to camp outside the zone waiting for a mob to pop and rush to zone in to get 15 first???? If you end camping in a zone, people will just sit outside and wait for the call to zone in. It will change nothing except who gets the first SS of 15 of their guild in the zone.

The new rules state 15 people in aggro radius of the mob have claim. There's nothing in the new rules about 15 in zone. So if folks camp outside the zone and rust to zone in to get 15 first, it still means nothing. The new rules are essentially "first to engage with 15+".

[Samuel]

The new rules state 15 people in aggro radius of the mob have claim. There's nothing in the new rules about 15 in zone. So if folks camp outside the zone and rust to zone in to get 15 first, it still means nothing. The new rules are essentially "first to engage with 15+".


Right, this part is obvious. Evorix was replying to the message he quoted...

Originally Posted by Noleafclover

Yes. Have rules that say they will get suspended. If it's illegal, it will stop getting done for the most part. And if not, they get suspended. Problem solved.

I mean I really don't get this, we're all anti-camping, and trying to think up ways to get rid of camping. Just. Say. No. Camping.

And then, like it has been, first w/ 15 in zone once something spawned have claim. Solves all the leapfrogging and same-time-pulling drama too. It's like a two-move checkmate. And back to tracking and racing.

Originally Posted by Evorix

Sooooo... you instead want people to camp outside the zone waiting for a mob to pop and rush to zone in to get 15 first???? If you end camping in a zone, people will just sit outside and wait for the call to zone in. It will change nothing except who gets the first SS of 15 of their guild in the zone.

[nerfed]

Wait until a guild leap frogs you for CT while you clear trash then we will see how much you like these rules.

[Skope]

Yea, it's essentially an FTE system.

I have to say, it's gonna be very weird actually seeing trackers in zones now, or at least some zones. Recently, along with IB, we've been the only 2 guilds to use them in any way shape or form. Should be fun :)

There's still an incentive to afk camp, and I foresee quite a shitstorm, Nilbog. You can pretty much guarantee that any raid guild camping on top of a certain mob to maintain aggro radius will probably wipe as soon as it pops (other than perhaps inny, he shouldn't be too much of a problem). I think it will essentially become a "race for 2nd" with guilds waiting just outside of aggro range to tag it. But this doesn't solve the poopsocking for dragons, and perhaps even inny. Having the 15 in zone removes the requirement to track/mobilize and can still be easily managed in perma/solb and pohate (clearing a few mobs every 8 hours isn't all that hard). If it does become a race for 2nd I think you'll be seeing the /petitions roll in for trains and disagreements on who tagged first and who had rights. You guys will keep yourselves pretty busy in that respect.

I think if there was a limited amount of time that guilds were allowed to camp in the zone with the zone clear (minus certain mobs like the 30min corners and some roamers in hate) it would leave planes clear for guilds to come up and have their shot at trash while still allowing big guilds who track and are willing to mobilize a shot at the trash and potential targets. This rule certainly eliminates poopsocking as it is now, but it changes poopsocking to "poopsocking with first to engage" or "poopsocking with who has the most DPS." It certainly is better in the sense that anyone can sit there and if it pops anyone who tags may have a shot, but I highly doubt that any guild will want to sit in aggro range of major targets to maintain the first shot. If an addendum were added to discourage the zone-camping for a "race to 2nd" then you guys will save yourselves quite a headache and would eliminate poopsocking completely.

[Samuel]

Everyone seems to like the idea of more FFA, but good or bad, it IS going to cause a lot more drama.

Q: Both raids got here simultaneously. What do we do?
A: In the rare case that both raids feel they got there first than you can work out a compromise on your own.


I forsee a lot of this with neither guild willing to admit they were second.

[Skope]

Yea, that is sort of my point. It does in a way eliminate some camping and create more chances due to wipe, but i can guarantee you /petitions will go through the roof.

[Samuel]

Agreed, Skope.

The guilds fighting for raid mobs want to be the best, want to gear their members and want to prevent other guilds from taking raid mobs from their guild.

Just because the rules are being changed and poopsocking will become more difficult doesn't mean guilds are going to get along and act civilly when competing for a target.

[nilbog]

So we can leap frog guilds clearing fear for CT right? Need zone / boss specific rules.

I'd prefer that your guilds/raids came to a general agreement so that we do not have to make a maze of rules that no one likes. 2 out of 3 golems claims CT? A raid actively working on a linked script has claim until wipe? There's two suggestions that are not rules yet.

The way the new rules read would be if a golem is unengaged, then it's first to engage. If CT is unengaged, then CT is first to engage.

The rules are subject to changes or amendments as needed. I'd prefer to keep them to a minimum.

A what-if situation:

Guild A is sitting in SolB with a 15+ raid force. Guild B starts to enter the zone, so Guild A moves into a proper camping position within aggro radius of Nagafen's spawn point to claim rights to the mob.

Time passes. At some point Guild C and Guild D enter the zone.

When Nagafen spawns, the environment looks like this:
-Guild A is in aggro range (with 15 in the Lair, and another 15 or so outside the area, around the wall).
-Guild B, Guild C and Guild D all have 15+ in Tranix's throne room, not interfering with Guild A.

So, Guild A gets aggro (rightful, clear claim), but cannot hold aggro consistently due to AFKs (the idea was to pull Naggy back to the wall as per the common tactic). Small wipe of the first 15 near the spawn. Naggy resets. The other guilds rush forward.

Are all four guilds now free to aggro him and lay claim? How can they possibly tell who engages him first when 50 people zerg the dragon immediatey after the first guild temporarily loses aggro?

If Guild A wipes due to its members being afk, this is an example of why afk camping won't work now. It opens Nagafen up to anyone that is ready and willing to engage.

4 guilds in the same zone is crazy anyways. Guilds B, C, and D could just leave a tracker in the zone, and call their guild when he pops. This would even give Guild A the chance to cr and try again, if they were the first to re-engage.

If 45+ players simultaneously charged Nagafen, I think it would be pretty fun myself, no need for GMs.

Q: Both raids got here simultaneously. What do we do?
A: In the rare case that both raids feel they got there first than you can work out a compromise on your own.It's a grey area in the rules.

the truth

You win.

Wait until a guild leap frogs you for CT while you clear trash then we will see how much you like these rules.

Pay attention what's going on around you? If you see someone fighting a golem, understand that its going to mean CT for someone soon.

We will add more rules if they are needed. I think it is important to at least give you guys a chance to try first to engage.

If you keep wanting more rules, you'll get them, don't worry. I was under the impression you people wanted less rules.

It does in a way eliminate some camping and create more chances due to wipe, but i can guarantee you /petitions will go through the roof.

I'd suggest to everyone to not create superfluous petitions. If your guild prepares a petition with evidence against another guild that explicitly shows them violating the rules, they will be banned for a week, weeks, or permanently. If you make a petition with no evidence and waste our time, I have no problem wasting yours. I'd rather depop a mob than listen to 40 people cry about it.


In general, raids need to stop calling for GMs. You guys said you didn't need babysitters, man up and don't fuck it up.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I like the part about depopping. If you can't come to an agreement in game, mob is depopped.

[Skope]

But, Nilbog, doesn't

If 45+ players simultaneously charged Nagafen, I think it would be pretty fun myself, no need for GMs.

essentially one of the problems that we recently had all over again? There were player-made rules that were promised to be enforced by a particular GM that filled out the gaps in the rules that we had before, these rules were disobeyed and that same GM claimed (and you did, as well) that only the official rules would be enforced. This "grey area" that guilds have to decide for themselves (whether at the target/zone or via forums/vent?) wouldn't be considered one of the official rules? Because guild C can promise guild B for a shot after guild A wipes, but then just hop in and take it and it's all fine and dandy.

I guess my questions are: is it FFA/FTE when things get ugly? Because that's the current vibe im getting. or are we to being asked to fill in the gaps again with no GM backing? is there going to be some sort of slap on the wrist for guilds who disobey the player-agreed-upon rules, if any are made?

45+ people engaging a target just means one guild right now, and in the past week there's been 2-3 instances where zones were pushing over 120 people, so a little clarification on whether it's FFA as soon as it pops if a guild isn't in aggro radius, or whether there will be fill-ins for these instances by GMs or player-made would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: depopping it is fine, but that won't need to keep occurring if some of the holes are patched up.

[Harrison]

That's the point. If you want to "camp" CT, good luck.



Ban people for standing around a spawn point? I understand your sentiment, but you should understand these rules discourage camping in general, and make afk camping nearly impossible. It is a clarification of first to engage, unless sufficient force is present to kill the npc when it spawns. That sufficient force has to be prepared to fight the moment it spawns, because they are in its aggro range. I assume you would have a better chance at succeeding by not camping the npc, and waiting on the first raid to fail from afk-camping.


From what I have seen and heard, guilds say they don't need a complicated ruleset. Prove it please.

I hope you're right, because I'd LOVE to come back and start playing again.

[Lostprophets]

The new rules state 15 people in aggro radius of the mob have claim. There's nothing in the new rules about 15 in zone. So if folks camp outside the zone and rust to zone in to get 15 first, it still means nothing. The new rules are essentially "first to engage with 15+".

thats where the "Please be respectful to your fellow players and respect their space. If there is a guild getting ready to raid Hate for some armor and they start pulling creatures, don't go up there and sit on top of them pulling mobs in their area as well. If Guild A is doing Hate, then perhaps Guild B should be doing Fear. Basically, don't be a douche bag."

that rule comes into play. Imo if you see someone forming for a target and clearing mobs in the pathway for maestro or inny or something for example, don't try to pull through them, don't try to pass them, just simply wait for them to wipe (if they're on the pure path to them clearly and not clearing ALL trash), or thats just douche bagery if you try to leapfrog them, and from what i gather from this post that pulling shit like that is bannable on first offence?

Definitely running fraps from now on.

[Humerox]

I'd prefer that your guilds/raids came to a general agreement so that we do not have to make a maze of rules that no one likes.

Man. Oh man. THIS was why player rules came out before. Then everyone got jacked and said they were too complicated...but I can GUARANTEE you petitions are going to hit the roof, no matter how much you warn people against it.

You still give everyone too much credit. You want them to act like adults, but they are NEVER going to. Human nature, man.

4 guilds in the same zone is crazy anyways. Guilds B, C, and D could just leave a tracker in the zone, and call their guild when he pops. This would even give Guild A the chance to cr and try again, if they were the first to re-engage.

Remember what we all said about camping for days? Crazy...just too crazy to happen.

There's going to be a need for player rules again...I can see it coming. If the guilds have enough fortitude to get together and work things out...it would be beneficial to support those rules. That would limit GM involvement. The players are smart enough to realize what should and shouldn't be done...but the problem has ALWAYS been nitpicking, using gray areas to advantage, and generally a shitstorm of QQ.

The problem with player rules before was they were not supported. Something can't be supported and unenforced. Once the players DO come up with something, post it and forget it. Let the guilds work it out.


I do appreciate what you guys have done though...it makes things much, much better for the server.

Bravo!!!!!!!

[getsome]

Nilbog,

Thank you!

[Humerox]

thats where the "Please be respectful to your fellow players and respect their space. If there is a guild getting ready to raid Hate for some armor and they start pulling creatures, don't go up there and sit on top of them pulling mobs in their area as well. If Guild A is doing Hate, then perhaps Guild B should be doing Fear. Basically, don't be a douche bag."

that rule comes into play. Imo if you see someone forming for a target and clearing mobs in the pathway for maestro or inny or something for example, don't try to pull through them, don't try to pass them, just simply wait for them to wipe (if they're on the pure path to them clearly and not clearing ALL trash), or thats just douche bagery if you try to leapfrog them, and from what i gather from this post that pulling shit like that is bannable on first offence?

Definitely running fraps from now on.

Just a thought here. What stops a guild from sitting in the entrance of Hate for days? There's even less for them to worry about this way...since simply sitting at the zone in is going to deter other guilds from even entering the zone.

Scenario. Guild A sits at the zone in of hate for 2 days. Inny pops. Guild B has a tracker in zone. Guild B ports up.

Guild A then claims they were at zone in and therefore Guild B was disrespecting their raid.

See my point? Don't think this won't happen.

[Lostprophets]

Just a thought here. What stops a guild from sitting in the entrance of Hate for days? There's even less for them to worry about this way...since simply sitting at the zone in is going to deter other guilds from even entering the zone.

Scenario. Guild A sits at the zone in of hate for 2 days. Inny pops. Guild B has a tracker in zone. Guild B ports up.

Guild A then claims they were at zone in and therefore Guild B was disrespecting their raid.

See my point? Don't think this won't happen.

there's always gray matter according to GMs.
they just need to tweak the rules a bit for particular zones is all.

I.E. you cannot sit idle at the zone in of hate for more than like 1 hr (claiming the zone/poopsocking due to the rule i stated by nilbog before), you have to CONSTANTLY be killing stuff (excluding the trashy roamers that repop before the actual mobs that drop stuff, this also excludes buffing if for some freakish reason it takes you an hour to buff up...zurg guilds with like 60+, im assuming does.). or once the zone is CLEAR you must leave unless inny or maestro is up.

because that particularity is an error, i agree.

[Humerox]

there's always gray matter according to GMs.
they just need to tweak the rules a bit for particular zones is all.

Not arguing with you here, just want to point this out. You can kill the corner pops all day long...roamers too. Hate could be perma-camped by a single guild...IF it were left to players using loopholes and "play nice".

This was exactly what we all did before. The guilds of the time got together and clarified the rules. Player rules were made - in the interest of then AND future guilds mind you - then the camping loophole became obvious, and guess what? You all know what.

Not only that...someone came along and said "well, I weren't here...those rules don't apply to me."

People are going to find the loopholes and use them to their advantage, unless either the GM's make the rules, or the playerbase does.

That's why I have been advocating that the players get together and do it them doggoned selves...just like was done before; that way Nilbog and Rogean aren't hip-deep in petitions again.

All the old playerbase rules would have needed was an amendment that said "no camping". All the rules of engagement were laid out. Everything was specified...there were few, if any, gray areas.

The problem was...for whatever reason...devs said player rules were supported but not enforced. Which led us all BACK to this.

Someone is going to have to lay out the tweaks...and it should be the players versus the devs. I'd much rather them spend their time working on the game...instead of dicking around with us.

However...the new server rules are MUCH improved. Just want to reiterate this. :P

[Lostprophets]

Yeah, these rules are gonna bomb for the most part. Many guilds are gonna have their way and use the gray matter to benefit them into douche baggary.

I still personally just think bosses should go on rotations, like for instance:


Week 1:

Transcendence - Lord Nagafen
Divinity - Lady Vox
Remedy - Innorruuk
IB - Cazic Thule


Week 2:

DA - Lord Nagafen
Transcendence - Lady Vox
Divinity - Innorruuk
Remedy - Cazic Thule


Week 3:

WI - Lord Nagafen
DA - Lady Vox
Transcendence - Innorruuk
Divinity - Cazic Thule


Week 4:

Remedy - Lord Nagafen
WI - Lady Vox
DA - Innorruuk
Transcendence - Cazic Thule

Week 5:

IB - Lord Nagafen
Remedy - Lady Vox
WI - Innorruuk
DA - Cazic Thule

Week 6:

Transcendence - Lord Nagafen
IB - Lady Vox
Remedy - Innorruuk
WI - Cazic Thule

(Granted actual guilds and targets would be based upon the gms, rotation would be something like that.)

--- Sure this makes a few guilds wait their turn, but in the long run they will actually appreciate their loot instead of having Bob sell it for them...it's really sad to see people selling off spined dragon claws, Orbs of Tashina, Toberyn's Mystical Eyepatches or amulets of necropotance. I never played classic, but from what i hear, those were items showing more than some plat, more of a trophy, and not just another piece of loot.


This will kill any crying/fussing about anything except the fact it's on rotation, In addition, Leapfrogs or KS will straight up make your entire guild hit the banhammer

...And really, it's the only civil way to do things because I too have been too a meeting or two from the guilds and nothing gets resolved really from what i saw, so that scraps the whole guild leader/officers intervention. it's a waste of time/effort on each guild to come in and get nothing accomplished.

[Skope]

There could be an addendum that simply states:

No camping in zone after all trash is clear, minus short-timer repops. After zone is clear, you've got an hour to leave and this can be done/maintained by active trackers.

The issue with poopsocking was the initial rights to mob engagement for just sitting around for 5 days, the more i look it over the more i realize this does address it (forces you to remain active), but also requires a lot of work on behalf of the players to hammer away at the kinks, mainly what happens if guild A dies and there's 3-4 guilds waiting? is if FTE? is it FFA with who can out-DPS each other? I don't think many people want to be running fraps for every raid. Furthermore, this only inhibits the first guild from afk camping, and that's only IF they decide to sit in aggro radius of the potential spawn. I really do think an addendum is required to get rid of the camping for good.

[hueylewis187]

Good rules! Should stop the afking to get a mob.

If first guild wipes and 3 guilds are waiting. Whomever engages first gets the mob. If 3 guilds seem to engage at the same time. Than whoever gets the kill gets it. I'd think. Because the 3 waiting guilds could of made arrangements on who had next shot. And GM's should only be called in in last resorts. If a gm has to be called in it probably won't be pretty. If your guild just keeps leapfrogging or trying to ks stuff they will resort to the server rules if a gm is called in. Try not to be douchebags was a rule.

"Players can and are encouraged make their own rules between each other. But if a gm HAS to be called in these are the server rules they are going by."

Happy weekend P1999!

[Humerox]

There could be an addendum that simply states:

No camping in zone after all trash is clear, minus short-timer repops. After zone is clear, you've got an hour to leave and this can be done/maintained by active trackers.

The issue with poopsocking was the initial rights to mob engagement for just sitting around for 5 days, the more i look it over the more i realize this does address it (forces you to remain active), but also requires a lot of work on behalf of the players to hammer away at the kinks, mainly what happens if guild A dies and there's 3-4 guilds waiting? is if FTE? is it FFA with who can out-DPS each other? I don't think many people want to be running fraps for every raid. Furthermore, this only inhibits the first guild from afk camping, and that's only IF they decide to sit in aggro radius of the potential spawn. I really do think an addendum is required to get rid of the camping for good.

I think that addendum would rock, myself. Whether it's player agreed or GM enforced, either way. Devs seem to think that wouldn't be acceptable to ask of the population...I think it's absolutely necessary to ask.

The way I read the new rules it's FTE with the first 15, and that includes the next guild's engagement after the wipe. We are all going to need dedicated FRAPS officers, lol.

[mmiles8]

You still give everyone too much credit. You want them to act like adults, but they are NEVER going to. Human nature, man.

Human nature can be worked in favor of less rules. It just has to be more attractive than leaning on rules as a crutch. Path of least resistance and all that.

[Webwolf]

In general, raids need to stop calling for GMs. You guys said you didn't need babysitters, man up and don't fuck it up.

I love the above answer. I hope you instruct the GMs not to interfere unless there is clear proof of foul play involved. It's funny how some people in this thread can't grasp the concept of FFA. Stop asking "what if" questions, there is no what if in FFA. Its pretty simple, the guild who manages to engage first wins.

As far as CT goes the best thing would be not to have the entire zone respawn with him. That would avoid alot of drama.

[Bumamgar]

As far as CT goes the best thing would be not to have the entire zone respawn with him. That would avoid alot of drama.

It's been that way for a long time....

[Humerox]

I love the above answer. I hope you instruct the GMs not to interfere unless there is clear proof of foul play involved. It's funny how some people in this thread can't grasp the concept of FFA. Stop asking "what if" questions, there is no what if in FFA. Its pretty simple, the guild who manages to engage first wins.

As far as CT goes the best thing would be not to have the entire zone respawn with him. That would avoid alot of drama.

Be great if it WAS FFA, but it's not. It's a modified FTE. "It's pretty simple" sounds fine, until you have six guilds in zone in a bitch-fest about who engaged with the first 15 after Guild A wiped.

UNLESS...the 15 FTE is only for the first guild. If it's FFA after that...oh hell...now that would be fun. (This is a what-if...:P)

The "what ifs" are what's been causing the f'n problems from the beginning. GM's are going to be called in...the only time I think the petitions probably slowed down is when the poopsocking started and everyone just gave up, lol.

[Webwolf]

It's been that way for a long time....

I said have the zone trash NOT respawn with him. Right now the entire zone respawns when CT pops and changing that would avoid guilds being leapfrogged while killing trash to clear the zone for CT.

Be great if it WAS FFA, but it's not. It's a modified FTE.

To me its pretty damn close to FFA except there is a few guidelines. I wish there was no mention to a 15 man rule at all but this is so much better than the old rules so that its good enough. People need to stop thinking about a way to camp it, there is no reason to camp in FFA. Nilbog used the sitting at the spawn point as an example and people are already thinking in a way to do just that. It will be funny when they wipe on a boss spawn and another guild comes in and take it from them.

[Bumamgar]

I said have the zone trash NOT respawn with him. Right now the entire zone respawns when CT pops and changing that would avoid guilds being leapfrogged while killing trash to clear the zone for CT.
Sorry, misread your post...

[Nightblade]

I have to strongly disagree with the rulings here. I can understand mobs in zones that aren't there strictly to house them (I.E, you'd exp normally in the zone), but I'm pretty sure you're going to cause yourselves an epic crapload of headaches with how it works out.

While I'm all for fairness and equality when it comes to raiding and opportunity to try new content, spending 3 hours clearing a zone just to be able to engage something, only to have an overwhelming raidforce parked outside rush in and steal it from you after you 'did the work for them' smacks of a future of butting heads. In an honest opinion, places like Hate and CT should have unique rules of their own stating that so long as the group within continues to make progress in clearing and maintains activity to do so, they maintain the claim to the ultimate goal.

I'm not one to sit and give the middle finger to 'The Man', and I greatly appreciate the fact that the developers and staffers take the time to address problems, concerns, and issues with the server and its population. That's a far cry more than SoE ever did. I feel that this is a step in the right direction, but I think there should be more developed into it, or there's going to be a whole lot of B'AWWWWWWW going on, and a flood of petitions as a result.

[Webwolf]

I'm pretty sure you're going to cause yourselves an epic crapload of headaches with how it works out.

It should be actually alot less headaches when all the GMs have to do is not get involved and ignore those types of complains.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

FFA will create more headaches, unless it goes to pvp. Just select a champion and have them meet and fight. Or do a /guildwar.

If it is ffa, prepare to do cr.

Players actions make it necessary for intervention. Society here is no different, people need consequences for their actions, or it becomes lawless and chaotic. Shame we can be better then this.

[Humerox]

The heck with all this. Sky just opened.

My vote is to now turn this into an item loot SZ-style server.

Thank you all for your time. :)

[girth]

It is better than poopsocking though. Kind of. I foresee many a poopsocks to still come.

[girth]

A question:

Will a guild get in trouble for killing a boss with less than 15?

By my understanding of these rules, killing a boss with less than 15 is allowed, just that they cannot claim the boss pre-spawn.

Prior to this it was never an issue, because if you dropped below 15 you lost your camp. Now if its FTE, 13 people who could kill naggy could beat a 20 man raid to him and engage.

[Webwolf]

Yea cause this is SOOOO much better than the proposed rules you guys turned down from some of the top guild leaders. /sarcasm


If that was directed towards me... I don't speak for my guild fyi. What I said on the previous posts is just my opinion, I have always been an advocate for FFA rules.

[girth]

If that was directed towards me... I don't speak for my guild fyi. What I said on the previous posts is just my opinion, I have always been an advocate for FFA rules.

Nah man. It was directed at GMs. :confused:

They KNOW how the population is here, yet they make a ruleset that still allows people to camp bosses and adds shitloads of gray area and they expect to have LESS GM intervention???

OOOOOOOOOOOK

[Loke]

Like I said before, I like the new rules and applaud the server staff for making them. As far as everyone in here bringing up all these instances the rules don't cover - it's going to be one of those things that will have to be worked out among guilds. These are the rules they have chosen, stop sitting here and trying to get them to make changes and just learn to live with them. If we start adding all sorts of changes, these are just going to get bogged down and ridiculous like the rules were before.

[Skope]

Like I said before, I like the new rules and applaud the server staff for making them. As far as everyone in here bringing up all these instances the rules don't cover - it's going to be one of those things that will have to be worked out among guilds. These are the rules they have chosen, stop sitting here and trying to get them to make changes and just learn to live with them. If we start adding all sorts of changes, these are just going to get bogged down and ridiculous like the rules were before.

What changes?

No Camping.

Done! :)

[Dukat]

While I think these rules are a massive improvement, theres still a very large GM presence in our raid scene. People can still get banned, people are still going to petition, players are still going to cry to mommy and daddy when things do not go as planned.

Honestly I'd rather be looking over my shoulder watching for trains and ninjas, then to look over my shoulder watching my whole guild get banned because of petitions over some "he said she said". Or having to run fraps 24/7 in an attempt to catch the other guild redhanded and tell on them like its the school playground (I've never been a tattletale and im not looking to start now).

All in all, gratitude to Nilbog for loosening his grip on the raid scene a touch. I know it is not easy to satisfy the various demands of a growing playerbase. I urge the raiding scene to act responsibly with the trust the GM's have extended to us. I also hope that eventually the GM's will build enough confidence in our guild leaders to cut the apron strings and let us handle the endless drama on our own.

Dukat 50 SK [SUSPENDED]
Dural 28 Wizard

[Nedala]

Thanks a lot for putting much work into this and listening to our players. I think this raid rule is way better than what we had.

There is just one thing i dont really get still:




Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn't classic!
A: While we strive to be as accurate as we can in terms of classic content, this is something that we feel is necessary to keep things running smooth. We believe the spawn variance method promotes both fairness and competition. Please note that we do not refresh the mob spawn times with a crash or patch. On live all raid targets re-spawned with a patch which usually caused bunches of raid targets to spawn. So on live Nagafen or Vox kills were not always exactly one week apart.



Wouldnt it be better if we had no spawn variance combined with the new raid rules? Would prevent permacamps even more now. I really wish we had no spawn variance.

I actually think there would be less drama without a spawn variance now.

[Noleafclover]

Wouldnt it be better if we had no spawn variance combined with the new raid rules? Would prevent permacamps even more now. I really wish we had no spawn variance.

I actually think there would be less drama without a spawn variance now.

Well, if people knew to the minute when the mob was spawning, it would get poopsocked like usual, to the highest time bidder. And then there'd be no downside to camping, since you could afk till 10 min before mob was due, buff up, and wreck.

[Samuel]

So it's clear, apparently you can claim a raid mob by kiteing it around with two players. Even if the other guild is ready to engage.

[Noleafclover]

I said have the zone trash NOT respawn with him. Right now the entire zone respawns when CT pops and changing that would avoid guilds being leapfrogged while killing trash to clear the zone for CT.


I prefer leapfogging stratagems and intricacy to poopsocking. At least there's some judgment in that, and arguably some skill (when you med, when you pull, to try to be FTE).

But generally... shitstorm inc... no doubt...

[Jayko]

1.) Samuel- No, two people engaging a mob cannot, by definition, establish claim. It's the same issue that Bootleg was addressing, even a 13 person raid force cannot legitimately hold claim and could be steamrolled by a larger force. However, technically unless you can prove they didn't have 15 WHEN they engaged, and not just 15 or more alive, well, yeah, could be enjoying that suspension.

2.) Being an advocate of ffa and then saying they should make anti-camping rules is hilarious in its inconsistency. Camping is a mobilization strategy now, not a guarantee to a mob. That's the best you'll get.

These rules should make it much clearer who has claim because of the FTE aspect of it. No more arcane sequences of screenshots, /whos and timestamps, no more leaving my computer on while I'm at work either to help 'claim' a mob. The increased variance will discourage camping as a strategy because it just won't be as effective. All of these I think are steps in the right direction.

I do, however, think these rules will result in increased asshattery. The problem is that per my reading of the rules the 'don't be a douche bag' thing is a suggestion, not a rule, and as such is not enforceable. There is no requirement that you respect another guild's presence in the zone, merely a suggestion. There is no rule against leap frogging: no rule against moving through their camp as they clear to a raid target so that you can engage it after they cleared to it.

Expecting guilds to work this out consistently on their own without having a ruleset backing it shows either indifference or naivete. It definitely should make less work for GMs, and it certainly gives the guilds that were incapable or unwilling to poopsock mobs more access, but in the end I think without addressing the leapfrogging issue at some point down the road it's going to be a mess.

To be fair, I don't see a way of addressing the issue outside of Fear where the zone repops on boss repop without once again legitimizing AFK camping or making a ridiculously complex ruleset which prompted the rule change in the first place. So, I guess mission accomplished?

Jayko
50 Shaman, Dark Ascension

[Serith]

So it's clear, apparently you can claim a raid mob by kiteing it around with two players. Even if the other guild is ready to engage.

kiting*

[Pheer]

So it's clear, apparently you can claim a raid mob by kiteing it around with two players. Even if the other guild is ready to engage.

Stop making the bunnies angry

[Serith]

http://imageftw.com/uploads/20100815/il_430xN.81955949.jpg

[Eternal-Elf]

I know you bunch of baby whiners always cry and bitch about keeping things classic. I fail to remember GM's getting on to ban or suspend people for camping a mob on live.

QQ

[Lazortag]

I think these new rules are probably more meritocratic (definitely more than a stupid fucking rotation system), but I don't raid (yet?), so just ignore me.

[Samuel]

1.) Samuel- No, two people engaging a mob cannot, by definition, establish claim. It's the same issue that Bootleg was addressing, even a 13 person raid force cannot legitimately hold claim and could be steamrolled by a larger force. However, technically unless you can prove they didn't have 15 WHEN they engaged, and not just 15 or more alive, well, yeah, could be enjoying that suspension.

Stop making the bunnies angry

A scenario already came up where a boss was kited by two players while the rest of their raid rezed up (because they had wiped). Another raid was present and ready to engage. Rogean was present and said the raid kiting the mob had claim and the other raid could do nothing.

[Itchybottom]

A scenario already came up where a boss was kited by two players while the rest of their raid rezed up (because they had wiped). Another raid was present and ready to engage. Rogean was present and said the raid kiting the mob had claim and the other raid could do nothing.

I wasn't there, but this situation sounded like the mob surprise attacked them, and it wasn't a full wipe, players were still alive. Establishing a kite on a mob, while you battle rez is typical EverQuest dynamic for even bad fearplane entry.

[Samuel]

I wasn't there, but this situation sounded like the mob surprise attacked them, and it wasn't a full wipe, players were still alive. Establishing a kite on a mob, while you battle rez is typical EverQuest dynamic for even bad fearplane entry.

Yes this is basically correct. They had players alive but they weren't ready to engage and the other guild was ready to engage. I'm just letting the public know that Rogean confirmed it is okay to kite a raid mob, so that we can discuss that part of the new rules.

[Itchybottom]

It sounds more like he okayed kiting a raid mob in a partial wipe. Not getting a few players together to kite a mob until everyone arrives. In a situation where the raid force wasn't ready prior to the partial wipe, I think Rogean would probably be okay with you just taking the mob from them. But it sounds like they WERE ready for it, had some bad luck, and kited for recovery.

[Samuel]

In my opinion there shouldn't be a difference between kiting a mob with no raid present or kiting a mob with a half dead raid present. We have always used rules that state if you can't kill something you don't have claim to the camp/mob. So with the new rules in place we need to decide if kiting mobs is the new work around for the inability to kill a mob.

I don't believe there should be a case by case consideration (ie. you have to have a certain number of your guild present to make kiting acceptable). That just leads to grey area in the rules and more drama. It should either be YES kiting is okay to claim a raid mob or NO it is not okay.

But it sounds like they WERE ready for it, had some bad luck, and kited for recovery.


WERE ready is the key here. They knew it was going to spawn, meaning they should have been ready for it. They partial wiped which made their status NOT ready to engage.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

If they haven't fully wiped and are kiting it, it is still theirs, as they engaged already. When you do Tormax, going to say when they start dying and ressing it isn't theirs? /boggle.

I do think having like one player up still might seem kind of lame, if kting during cr, but really once they engage as long as the mob is still aggro, it is theirs.

[Redriot]

Samuel. You really should know what your talking about before you start assuming the said mob was being kiting to prevent another guild from engaging.

[Otto]

Girth I think he was referring to the protector of sky, which he was also incorrect about.

But still, he is complaining about something he doesn't know about and speaks as if it is obvious fact.

[nerfed]

Can we "help" the kiters out by damaging the mob to 95%?

[girth]

Oh in that case, Samuel is even a bigger idiot. Stop making those bunnies angry guys!!

[Emoqq]

Can we "help" the kiters out by damaging the mob to 95%?

+1

[girth]

The new rules state 15 people in aggro radius of the mob have claim. There's nothing in the new rules about 15 in zone. So if folks camp outside the zone and rust to zone in to get 15 first, it still means nothing. The new rules are essentially "first to engage with 15+".

That should be clarified then. Currently the only place it lists 15+ is camping a boss that is not up yet. Or are you telling me that a 20 man raid can KS a 13 man raid after they engaged a boss? Assuming neither were there before it spawned.

[Skope]

That should be clarified then. Currently the only place it lists 15+ is camping a boss that is not up yet. Or are you telling me that a 20 man raid can KS a 13 man raid after they engaged a boss? Assuming neither were there before it spawned.

The gray area here and other places within these rules is quite large. The "don't be a douchebag" may even fall in line with don't kite until you're ready, or don't leapfrog. I understand it's difficult and there should be no reason to get into minute specifics, but nevertheless there are some quite large gaps that need some filling. I'm assuming the "don't be a douchebag" rule was an attempt to skip over the specifics and pile it up into a single rule without the need to make it too complex. There is still some large issues that should be clarified that don't necessarily require being jumbled into that douchebag rule and wouldn't require too much text. We've had the same issue with the prior rules and things were addressed via the players, I honestly don't see why that shouldn't happen again. Granted, we skipped quite a huge loophole and it was abused for months, so let's at least try to make sure that doesn't happen again.

[Pheer]

ITT: DA raging because they hung around on first island killing thunder princesses while we cleared azaracks.

[Bagzan]

You clearly don't understand the mechanics of Sky whatsoever. That's fine, I know it's confusing since it's 11 years old and all but your assertions about "kiting til ready hurp derp" are wrong and make you look like a fool to anybody that has the slightest clue what to actually do.

[Redriot]

You clearly don't understand the mechanics of Sky whatsoever. That's fine, I know it's confusing since it's 11 years old and all but your assertions about "kiting til ready hurp derp" are wrong and make you look like a fool to anybody that has the slightest clue what to actually do.

Well said

[Samuel]

You're right I don't remember everything about sky after 11 years, it's astounding you guys remember all the "exploits" (quotes because I'm definitely not saying they are illegal within our rules) that you do. However, I do completely understand what was happening with the protector. The point I'm trying to make is that at that moment while you were kiting him and rezing half your dead raid you WERE NOT READY TO ENGAGE him.

We have a completely new set of rules in place. Instead of shitting up this thread with your arrogant douche baggery, how about we try to establish what the rules are?

If it is okay to kite a raid mob in sky until your guild is ready, is it okay to kite any other raid mob until your guild is ready?

Is there a certain number of people that need to be present to make this acceptable?

[Eternal-Elf]

I really just wish all the guilds that like to come here and complain how shitty the rules are or how great the rules are or just plain complaining on each other.....

Would meet up in real life and have an epic battle. Kinda like the fight between news stations in Anchor Man. Except more blood.

Thanks

[Pheer]

You're right I don't remember everything about sky after 11 years, it's astounding you guys remember all the "exploits" (quotes because I'm definitely not saying they are illegal within our rules) that you do. However, I do completely understand what was happening with the protector. The point I'm trying to make is that at that moment while you were kiting him and rezing half your dead raid you WERE NOT READY TO ENGAGE him.

We have a completely new set of rules in place. Instead of shitting up this thread with your arrogant douche baggery, how about we try to establish what the rules are?

If it is okay to kite a raid mob in sky until your guild is ready, is it okay to kite any other raid mob until your guild is ready?

Is there a certain number of people that need to be present to make this acceptable?

Oh but when you guys wiped to dojorn like fifty fucking times and we took him on the first try you argued that you still had claim to him just for being near his spawn point while CRing?

[girth]

However, I do completely understand what was happening with the protector.

Samuel you still don't get it, but that's okay, I won't spell it out for you. When you figure it out, or more likely when somebody finally tells you, come apologize.

Also, I'm pretty sure half an IB raid could kill protector of sky.

[Gwence]

You're right I don't remember everything about sky after 11 years, it's astounding you guys remember all the "exploits" (quotes because I'm definitely not saying they are illegal within our rules) that you do. However, I do completely understand what was happening with the protector. The point I'm trying to make is that at that moment while you were kiting him and rezing half your dead raid you WERE NOT READY TO ENGAGE him.

We have a completely new set of rules in place. Instead of shitting up this thread with your arrogant douche baggery, how about we try to establish what the rules are?

If it is okay to kite a raid mob in sky until your guild is ready, is it okay to kite any other raid mob until your guild is ready?

Is there a certain number of people that need to be present to make this acceptable?

yea you're right I guess we should've killed Protector then cleared the rest of the Azaracks with Sirrian around us......

that's what the #1 guild would do right?

[guineapig]

Just curious. This mob that was being kited while the entire raid was being rezed... was it not summoning?
What was the name of the mob?

[Atern]

...Basically, don't be a douche bag.


And here is where the problem lies. If there is anything we've learned from all the attempts to make raid rules that please everyone, it's that people (especially those raiding on this server) are douche bags. And in general, the bigger the douche bag, the more successful he will be.

I like the FTE rule since it essentially puts a small structure around FFA. And since acting like douche bags is what the raiding masses do best, this will at least play to their strengths.

[Molitoth]

Week 1:

Transcendence - Lord Nagafen
Divinity - Lady Vox
Remedy - Innorruuk
IB - Cazic Thule

You forgot to include Eminence; which could and would take down any of those targets.


Also, I'm sure Sapientia/Vesica Dei would want in.

I know it was just an example, but with a Rotation... you are going to have to include all raiding capable guilds.... not just the one's who were willing to Poopsock.

[Otto]

Just curious. This mob that was being kited while the entire raid was being rezed... was it not summoning?
What was the name of the mob?

1: There were only a handful of people dead. No more than you could count on one hand.

2: No, it was not summoning as it had not been damaged which was part of a much larger plan that Samuel and DA didn't seem to realize until after their first encounter with Sirran the Lunatic on azarack isle.

3: Lets move back on topic and quit picking hairs.


These raid rules are as classic as we are going to get. Those of you complaining about leapfrogging on CT and whatever else could possibly happen with you clearing for hours then losing your mob, where were you back in classic times? The drama coming from mobs being 'stolen' is one of the things that makes Everquest what it is. You carebears who can't handle that should go play WoW or make your own EQ server like Tibador is trying to and make up your own rules.

[Skope]

Sorry, Otto, but this whole "FTE/FFA are classic, everything else is not" isn't true whatsoever. There were plenty of instances where GMs were involved and even had straight rotations enforced with hammers. Whether you agree with the rules or not is a separate issue. Frankly I think they're a huge improvement over what we had before, but there are nevertheless some issues that need to be worked out.

Such as:

is it 15+ in aggro range? or is it 1 in aggro range for pull and 14+ sitting in engagement area?

When a guild drops under 15 do the other guilds have a right to engage immediately?

Is kiting with just a couple of people waiting for raid to prep considered an engagement at all?


These are the types of things that the guilds themselves went over and ironed out (granted, there were flaws as well). I don't see why that shouldn't happen again.

[Molitoth]

I know this shit seems basic and it's not gonna happen between two guilds that hate each other but,

If a guild has assembled and is ready to engage.... guild B should let them have it.


If more than one guild assembles and is ready to engage at the same time, it should be up to those guilds to either /random for it, /dual for it, or come to a rotation agreement.

[guineapig]

2: No, it was not summoning as it had not been damaged which was part of a much larger plan that Samuel and DA didn't seem to realize until after their first encounter with Sirran the Lunatic on azarack isle.


This I feel is important and requires some clarification. If the mob has not been damaged then has it been engaged? This absolutely needs to be answered and put down in black and white by somebody.

Just to clarify, I was not there am not taking sides, and am not interested in what happened the other day. I feel that this is extremely important for future reference for all guild on the server.

Can you claim a mob that you have not damaged (ie: the mob is not yet summoning)? If so, how long can this be done? Is it indefinite? Is there a time limit?

[Starklen]

You're right I don't remember everything about sky after 11 years, it's astounding you guys remember all the "exploits" (quotes because I'm definitely not saying they are illegal within our rules) that you do. However, I do completely understand what was happening with the protector. The point I'm trying to make is that at that moment while you were kiting him and rezing half your dead raid you WERE NOT READY TO ENGAGE him.

We have a completely new set of rules in place. Instead of shitting up this thread with your arrogant douche baggery, how about we try to establish what the rules are?

If it is okay to kite a raid mob in sky until your guild is ready, is it okay to kite any other raid mob until your guild is ready?

Is there a certain number of people that need to be present to make this acceptable?

Better question. Is it ok to be wiping to noble dojorn with 50 people?

[Sidious]

The whole point of these new raid rules is that it becomes self policing. If you are the douchebag guild that follows another into fear and tries to KS CT, expect that door to be opened to you. It is not dealt with on a serverwide basis, but you gain the reputation as the type of raiding guild you act like and others will treat you accordingly.

The 15 person thing is getting way too much credit here, the rules are saying that it only applies to mobs that have not spawned. IE a raid force of 20 are waiting ON Nagafens spawn point, no other guild is allowed to wait on the spawn. Now picture a raid force of 40 buffing just outside of the room, they are not within agro range, a force of 12 is welcome to have their shot if they are ready to go. Once a group of players engages, guild b is not allowed to KS, they must wait until guild a wipes and the mob is reset...that is how first to engage operates folks.

The kited mob was the protector of sky, anyone who has done sky before would know why.

[guineapig]

The kited mob was the protector of sky, anyone who has done sky before would know why.

How are you kiting a mob that casts a root spell that can't be resisted?

Also how are you kiting him at all if he isn't summoning yet? He should not be moving at all until you get him down to 95%.

Sorry, it seems to me like this mob is not working as it should be.
If you are able to kite him then he should be summoning the kiter and casting a root/dot/float spell that can't be resisted. If he is not summoning then he should not be moving period and therefor has not been engaged yet.

[xorbier]

The whole point of these new raid rules is that it becomes self policing. If you are the douchebag guild that follows another into fear and tries to KS CT, expect that door to be opened to you. It is not dealt with on a serverwide basis, but you gain the reputation as the type of raiding guild you act like and others will treat you accordingly.

The 15 person thing is getting way too much credit here, the rules are saying that it only applies to mobs that have not spawned. IE a raid force of 20 are waiting ON Nagafens spawn point, no other guild is allowed to wait on the spawn. Now picture a raid force of 40 buffing just outside of the room, they are not within agro range, a force of 12 is welcome to have their shot if they are ready to go. Once a group of players engages, guild b is not allowed to KS, they must wait until guild a wipes and the mob is reset...that is how first to engage operates folks.

The kited mob was the protector of sky, anyone who has done sky before would know why.

Riiiight, and IB isn't a douchbag guild for exploit pulling a boss mob from another island right after DA cleared the mobs and was ready to pull. Technically they were able to do it cause we had failed but it was a dick move. I'm so tired of everyone claiming to be on a high horse. Most of you guys are full of shit.

Get ready for some FFA.

[Rogean]

Riiiight, and IB isn't a douchbag guild for exploit pulling a boss mob from another island

I'd call that tactical pulling. The islands are pretty adjacent.

[Skope]

You were always able to pull mobs from other islands, and island hopping was one of the major strategies of posky. It's not exactly an exploit, but could be seen as falling in line with the "douchebaggery."

[Trimm]

If there is anything we've learned from all the attempts to make raid rules that please everyone, it's that people (especially those raiding on this server) are douche bags.

There are plenty of us who aren't douchbags.

Regarding Fear/CT: Cazic and Draco were killed on Sunday using these new raid rules and everything was fine. Three guilds were involved with very minimal drama. When the other guilds were ready and wanted to engage we gave them their space, and they did the same for us when we had our attempt.

[Itchybottom]

http://www.juicyjuice.com/nirf/cm2/upload/0C73F717-F5B0-4172-9DCD-D408463D35C2/tantrum.jpg

It's okay baby xorbier, the bunnies aren't angry anymore.

[xorbier]

Fair enough but it was still a dick move on IBs behalf. Especially when our guild did all the work to clear the island. We wouldn't have failed the 2nd attempt had our tank not gotten stuck due to a bug.

As for the claim we failed with 50 that's simply not true. It's all fair though.

I do like the new rules though and if the GMs stay out of things and let the guilds handle disputes amongst themselves I believe this server has a lot of potential! And if the banning of individuals is done equally amongst all the guilds for the same offenses! :)

[xorbier]

http://www.juicyjuice.com/nirf/cm2/upload/0C73F717-F5B0-4172-9DCD-D408463D35C2/tantrum.jpg

It's okay baby xorbier, the bunnies aren't angry anymore.

<3

Ya, that person was an idiot. I'm glad you and I have never made a mistake before!!

[guineapig]

How are you kiting a mob that casts a root spell that can't be resisted?

Also how are you kiting him at all if he isn't summoning yet? He should not be moving at all until you get him down to 95%.

Sorry, it seems to me like this mob is not working as it should be.
If you are able to kite him then he should be summoning the kiter and casting a root/dot/float spell that can't be resisted. If he is not summoning then he should not be moving period and therefor has not been engaged yet.

BUMP ^^^

Of course there are 2 different incarnations of this script. The classic one and the one from around 2006 (post revamp). Originally he had a placeholder but later on he was changed to simply spawn when the last Azarack died. I'm guessing the one that's live on this server is the non-classic version and that's why you were able to kite it without getting summoned.
Both incarnations have the irresistible root though.

[Pheer]

As for the claim we failed with 50 that's simply not true. It's all fair though

How is it not true? You had 50 in zone, we had 36 or so.

[xorbier]

How is it not true? You had 50 in zone, we had 36 or so.

Would it ever occur to you that some people have to afk? Also, i don't recall 50 being in the zone. There were around 40 in the zone.

Seriously though, what's your point?

[xorbier]

Oh but when you guys wiped to dojorn like fifty fucking times and we took him on the first try you argued that you still had claim to him just for being near his spawn point while CRing?

Yeah, you don't exaggerate...

[Olorin]

There are plenty of us who aren't douchbags.

Regarding Fear/CT: Cazic and Draco were killed on Sunday using these new raid rules and everything was fine. Three guilds were involved with very minimal drama. When the other guilds were ready and wanted to engage we gave them their space, and they did the same for us when we had our attempt.

Except for the one one time Divinity trained the temple on WI -- unfortunately I dont have fraps installed which seems to be the only thing that counts ...

[Skope]

Except for the one one time Divinity trained the temple on WI -- unfortunately I dont have fraps installed which seems to be the only thing that counts ...

OOOOokkaay...

Let's keep the RnF to the RnF please, particularly if you're going to spew flat-out lies. The enchanter made a mistake and walked to your camp instead of ours, but we had a rogue guide him back and neither one had any aggro at all, neither died and neither dropped below 100% health the entire time. No, it wasn't a train and please delete these posts.

[hueylewis187]

Was the pull from the other island using the teleporters or did someone stand on the edge of the island and cast calm/pacify? If calm was used. I see no difference from when allizia got banned for calming phinny to the entrance of kedge. Got banned for a week I think for that.

Just curious how the pull was made? From one island to the other. If it was using the teleporters that is legit. If it was a spell I'd say and exploit.


I would like to add. Thanks! for alllllll the hardwork on posky. I look forward to going back there in the future. When it's not soooo packed : )

[Bumamgar]

BUMP ^^^

Of course there are 2 different incarnations of this script. The classic one and the one from around 2006 (post revamp). Originally he had a placeholder but later on he was changed to simply spawn when the last Azarack died. I'm guessing the one that's live on this server is the non-classic version and that's why you were able to kite it without getting summoned.
Both incarnations have the irresistible root though.
You would be wrong.

This server has a placeholder that when killed spawns the PoS. You are correct that these mobs proc a root/lev effect, but the key word there is 'proc' so as long as you aren't in melee range, they don't do the effect.

The key to this whole dispute ISN'T the KITING. Everyone is getting hung up on that, but it's a red herring.

The key is that the Protector of Sky is a TRIGGERED MOB. He isn't up. He spawns based on player actions. Rogean ruled that a triggered mob belongs to the raid that triggered him. The fact that they were kiting him to prevent spawning Sirran before the other azeraks were dead is inconsequential to the ruling.

It's no different than Ixiblat Fer in Kunark. He is triggered by turning in a runed seashell to Naxot in Burning Woods. No one other than a complete asshat would think it valid to pull and kill a spawn of Ixiblat triggered by another raid force. The same thing applies to Protector of Sky.

Repeat after me: The ruling had NOTHING to do with KITING.

[Pheer]

Would it ever occur to you that some people have to afk? Also, i don't recall 50 being in the zone. There were around 40 in the zone.

Seriously though, what's your point?

Its hilarious watching you try to downplay your failures. I can tell DA is really embarassed about their first couple days in sky, especially when they've reached the point of lying about how many people they had for a boss attempt.

[Starklen]

We forgive you for wiping to noble dojorn with 50 people and subsequently agroing sirran because you don't know how to play.

[guineapig]

You would be wrong.

This server has a placeholder that when killed spawns the PoS. You are correct that these mobs proc a root/lev effect, but the key word there is 'proc' so as long as you aren't in melee range, they don't do the effect.

The key to this whole dispute ISN'T the KITING. Everyone is getting hung up on that, but it's a red herring.

The key is that the Protector of Sky is a TRIGGERED MOB. He isn't up. He spawns based on player actions. Rogean ruled that a triggered mob belongs to the raid that triggered him. The fact that they were kiting him to prevent spawning Sirran before the other azeraks were dead is inconsequential to the ruling.

It's no different than Ixiblat Fer in Kunark. He is triggered by turning in a runed seashell to Naxot in Burning Woods. No one other than a complete asshat would think it valid to pull and kill a spawn of Ixiblat triggered by another raid force. The same thing applies to Protector of Sky.

Repeat after me: The ruling had NOTHING to do with KITING.

Like I said, I really didn't care about the bickering in the first place. Of course you don't want to spawn Sirran before killing everything, this is obvious. I merely wanted to know what version of the mob was up there since when we were testing Sky a while back he spawned after everything else was dead (ie: not tied to the death of a specific mob). The classic version had him spawning after his placeh0lder is killed (one of the 9 Azeracks). So now I know that they have since fixed his spawn, good to know. Thanks for the answer.

True, I forgot that his ability was a proc although I'm surprised that whoever was kiting never got hit once by the proc. That island is particularly bumpy and without lev its easy for a flying mob to catch up to you. I Just wanted to make sure that his ability was working.

You really should lay off the attitude man, I wasn't even addressing you. It seems like every time you post on the forums you are all angry and stuff.

[Pheer]

True, I forgot that his ability was a proc although I'm surprised that whoever was kiting never got hit once by the proc. That island is particularly bumpy and without lev its easy for a flying mob to catch up to you. I Just wanted to make sure that his ability was working.

selos.

[xorbier]

Its hilarious watching you try to downplay your failures. I can tell DA is really embarassed about their first couple days in sky, especially when they've reached the point of lying about how many people they had for a boss attempt.

How many times has IB wiped on Vox?? ;)

[Aarone]

http://www.juicyjuice.com/nirf/cm2/upload/0C73F717-F5B0-4172-9DCD-D408463D35C2/tantrum.jpg

It's okay baby xorbier, the bunnies aren't angry anymore.

I think that this pic is more appropriate...

http://www.project1999.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=31&pictureid=177

We now return you to your regularly scheduled post.

[Bagzan]

[Of course you don't want to spawn Sirran before killing everything, this is obvious.

Dark Ascension would like a word with you because it obviously isn't so clear to them.

[Trimm]

Except for the one one time Divinity trained the temple on WI -- unfortunately I dont have fraps installed which seems to be the only thing that counts ...

I know what you are talking about, and we still aren't in agreement as to what happened. At the time the temple was pulled, we had an enchanter and rogue headed to our camp from the zone in. Lets say he did in fact agro the temple, he would have been killed instantly and the mobs would have pathed back. Truth is both people made it to our camp with 100% health and no adds on them, how would that have happened? I don't care what guild we are up against, we aren't going to flat out train you just for the sake of doing it.

If an enchanter and rogue were able to grab the temple, train your camp and make it back to ours without taking a single point of damage then they are the best trainers on the server.

[guineapig]

That....
and there is zero precedent for our guild ever doing something like that on a raid.

[Pheer]

How many times has IB wiped on Vox?? ;)

It seems we were both wrong about how many members you guys had in sky, it wasnt 50, nor 40, but... 8!

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5906/eq004332.png

[xorbier]

And you guys have failed vox...

[Pheer]

Nice comeback bro.

"Sure we wiped and cockblocked ourselves in sky multiple times the past couple days, but we can zerg down a trivial classic dragon with 60 people" - Dark Ascension

[Starklen]

Hey, has DA figured out how to get their keys for isle 5 yet?

[Itchybottom]

http://www.westlakehardware.com/common/cms/media/Key%20Center%20Cutting.jpg

[xorbier]

Hey, has DA figured out how to get their keys for isle 5 yet?

Umm it's 10 year old content. There's not much to figure out... and yes to answer your question most of us have our keys to the 5th island. Congratulations you out played us in quickness when sky was released. I'd argue we out played you the last few months prior to sky's release and downed more raid bosses. As I remember many of your members were very butthurt over this and QQd every chance you got. But hey, if you want to revel in our failure to beat you in sky thus far by all means.

[guineapig]

Can't forget this!

http://www.consumertrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/keymaster.jpg

[Pheer]

Umm it's 10 year old content. There's not much to figure out... and yes to answer your question most of us have our keys to the 5th island. Congratulations you out played us in quickness when sky was released. I'd argue we out played you the last few months prior to sky's release and downed more raid bosses. As I remember many of your members were very butthurt over this and QQd every chance you got. But hey, if you want to revel in our failure to beat you in sky thus far by all means.

Dont you mean outafk'd us?

Funny how youre arguing that youre champs of trivial content but soon as it comes to something actually a little challenging you fall flat on your face.

[Starklen]

Umm it's 10 year old content. There's not much to figure out... and yes to answer your question most of us have our keys to the 5th island. Congratulations you out played us in quickness when sky was released. I'd argue we out played you the last few months prior to sky's release and downed more raid bosses. As I remember many of your members were very butthurt over this and QQd every chance you got. But hey, if you want to revel in our failure to beat you in sky thus far by all means.

Hey, does anyone know why I haven't seen a member of DA on island 5?

[President]

LOL

[spoolie]

Hey, does anyone know why I haven't seen a member of DA on island 5?

cause we don't feel like wasting our time on spiroc lord for a day and a half??? rather farm island 2-4 and get our pieces?? omggessdsssd

[Starklen]

Guess that's a no!

[Gwence]

not one person in DA has a key to isle 5, stop being dumb.

Chicanery stop asking retarded questions and maybe you wont get attitude, if you want to find out about something you dont ride the coat tails of others, you go find out for yourself.

[girth]

Samuel, now that Bum spilled the beans, you may now apologize for being so retarded for half this thread.

[Valent]

The bunnies were angry today...huh IB???:)

[nerfed]

We've killed the Keeper of Souls so we could have our keys to 5th. stop being dumb

[Valent]

.

[girth]

The bunnies were angry today...huh IB???

Ya they killed a whole 2 people. How many DA did Gorgalosk kill right after?

[Starklen]

Has DA figured out where not to tank gorgalosk yet?

[Gwence]

We've killed the Keeper of Souls so we could have our keys to 5th. stop being dumb

yea you killed him.........



on isle 3

tell you what, link me your key and I'll shut up.

[nerfed]

yes and we could have moved to island 4before killing if we wanted the keys. How many IB have keys to island 6 without killing spiroc lord? Exploit the bug much?

[Bossco]

cause we don't feel like wasting our time on spiroc lord for a day and a half??? rather farm island 2-4 and get our pieces?? omggessdsssd

Seems like you guys are doing a good job of watching us farm 3 for pieces right now, but I don't see much clearing going down on your end =P

[Bossco]

yes and we could have moved to island 4before killing if we wanted the keys. How many IB have keys to island 6 without killing spiroc lord? Exploit the bug much?

lawl. all I have to say.

[Valent]

lawl as in its not a bug?

[xorbier]

yea you killed him.........



on isle 3

tell you what, link me your key and I'll shut up.

We almost all have our bird whistles. Did we turn them in on Isle 4 no. Why? That's already been explained to you.

You guys are sure cocky for a guild that's been beat the last 2-3 months.

[Bossco]

Lawl, as in this is a woefully misinformed statement.

[Pheer]

The bunnies were angry today...huh IB???:)

Yeah because sirran and gorg killing 3 people that were left on his agro list is comparable to your full 50 man raid wipe to him after camping for 8 hours just to blow it.


Right?

[Gwence]

you're not only in denial, but now you're delusional.

[Valent]

Here is how we agroed Sirran. We were clearing island 2, PoS pops on the 8th azarak death. PoS dies. As we were turning in keys the 9th Azarak pops and agroes us and so Sirran agroes us, we all camp.

He did not wipe us. He killed a few of us before we kited him to let the rest of us camp.

[Itchybottom]

Envy them, guys.

http://www.sensorycorner.co.nz/catalog/images/Warbling%20bird%20whistle.jpg

[Bossco]

Here is how we agroed Sirran. We were clearing island 2, PoS pops on the 8th azarak death. PoS dies. As we were turning in keys the 9th Azarak pops and agroes us and so Sirran agroes us, we all camp.

He did not wipe us. He killed a few of us before we kited him to let the rest of us camp.

The 9th azarak popped? as in he was previously despawned?

[xorbier]

Congratulations IB. You beat us for one time in the last few months. We shouldn't take that away from you!

[Pheer]

Here is how we agroed Sirran. We were clearing island 2, PoS pops on the 8th azarak death. PoS dies. As we were turning in keys the 9th Azarak pops and agroes us and so Sirran agroes us, we all camp.

He did not wipe us. He killed a few of us before we kited him to let the rest of us camp.

We were able to see how many of you had ended up at your bind points because you tools had removed roleplay as if it was some big accomplishment to have ported up to the zone. There was way more than 'just a few" of you dead.

Congratulations IB. You beat us for one time in the last few months. We shouldn't take that away from you!

Well when it comes to being able to sit at your monitor and quickly type present with your cheeto fingers I'll admit you did edge us out.

Now that we're in a zone that takes knowledge of actually *playing* the game you're getting beaten.

[President]

Someone may want to page Durison to inform this guy that all hes doing is making DA look worse.

[Bossco]

One time in months, lolol. You act as if you downed every spawn since you showed up

[Valent]

I dont know whats worse having a agro mob pop on you to agro sirran or pull a mob to camp to agro sirran....

[Itchybottom]

One time in months, lolol. You act as if you downed every spawn since you showed up

They always "sacrafice" effort to beat you by one. It says so, on their web page.

[Bossco]

.

[Pheer]

I dont know whats worse having a agro mob pop on you to agro sirran or pull a mob to camp to agro sirran....

I think laughing about a rival guild getting 3 deaths to a mob's agro then pulling it and wiping yourselves is worse.

[guineapig]

Chicanery stop asking retarded questions and maybe you wont get attitude,


Not sure where to begin.


if you want to find out about something you dont ride the coat tails of others,

I'm affraid you are a little confused about what this phrase means because it doesn't apply here. :confused:


you go find out for yourself.

Yes, like by asking questions from people that were there. :rolleyes:

Anyway, other members of IB already answered my questions so I'm not sure what you are getting at here.

Regardless, my questions were quite legitimate as I was there on the day of testing for this zone and I wanted to know what was changed.


If the 9th Azarak really spawned after PoS then that pretty much further confirms that the script on this island is the way it was in classic.
It's not unforseeable for PoS to spawn before all 9 Azaraks are killed if, during the previous spawn cycle his PH was killed some length of time before the last Azarak.

[Erasong]

Congratulations IB. You beat us for one time in the last few months. We shouldn't take that away from you!

I generally don't get into the mud slinging but this is absurd. The guilds have done a pretty good job ( if you can call sitting afk waiting for stuff to spawn a good job lololol) of getting spawns. Sometimes it swings one way, Sometimes the other. I don't think ANYONE can claim a "win" from the whole camping situation so settle down.
Some really loud and obnoxious members of DA, when you guys first initiated operation: Sit and camp shit and force the server to do the same, claimed "there's a new sheriff in town". I have yet to see IB defeated and dethroned. At best IB was forced to share some of the limelight and accept DA as a principle rival. Now i'm no enemy of DA. I respect a lot of your members and I believe I get the same, but seriously stop with the propaganda machine and re imagined history.

[tuxqueot]

this thread has gotten absurd. please unsticky it and make a new one with the raid rules clearly posted, sticky and LOCKED. the finger pointing has taken away any meaning the original post had.

[Aadill]

^ What this guy said ^

[spoolie]

yay for elaida being level headed about things. There is no winning from either side. I don't know why that keeps getting brought up. Like Elaida said IB was top dog, now they are shareing the lime light with DA. We have been getting the same mobs for months now. Sometimes it swings in favor of IB sometimes it swings towards DA. So if anything comes from Sky opening is now some of the other guilds are getting/camping raid mobs now while DA and IB mess around in sky until we get bored. And all of IB saying were are your key to island 5 OMG we made the decision to not even bother with island 5 because you guys were fucking around with spiroc lord for a day and a half. We made the choice to pull keeper to island 3 to keep farming while you guys banged your head against the spiroc lord. So if all you guys have to sling is Where are your keys. well shit you got us. But we have killed the keeper and if we REALLY wanted to get keys to island 5 and do absolutly nothing on that island then we would have just moved to island 4 and killed it. We made the choice to keep on farming and not even bother.

[Erasong]

this thread has gotten absurd. please unsticky it and make a new one with the raid rules clearly posted, sticky and LOCKED. the finger pointing has taken away any meaning the original post had.

[Gwence]

Asking people "that were there" to explain shit to you is riding someone else's coat tails, aka we do the work then explain everything to you.

The zone is open to everyone feel free to come up and check it out and get the answers for yourself.

[guineapig]

Asking people "that were there" to explain shit to you is riding someone else's coat tails, aka we do the work then explain everything to you.

The zone is open to everyone feel free to come up and check it out and get the answers for yourself.

No thanks. I have no interest in going to Sky with 2 possibly 3 other guilds up there. There is plenty of time to go to Sky, the zone and the drops aren't going anywhere.

And riding somebody else's coat tails would be if I was guild hoping just to get into the planes in hopes of grabbing some loot instead or working my way through content with my existing guild/friends where I have been properly contributing for the past 8-10 months. To my knowledge you have been with IB at least as long as I have been with Divinity so I am sure you can respect that.

[Kutter]

...So if anything comes from Sky opening is now some of the other guilds are having a blast actually competing for mobs now while DA fumbles around in sky...

Fixt. If you guys think you top IB at anything at all, you're sadly mistaken. With the raid rule changes, you're not gonna see much of anything, unless something pops at 3:30am eastern, and WI will probably smoke your shorts.

Poopsocking is over. You zerg rushed CT last night after WI and Divinity cleared for hours, and got toasted in about 20 seconds. The only thing you guys know how to do is fill socks and talk trash.

You can't beat IB, WI, or Divinity on an even playing field. Remedy could take you to school. Eminence even.

Stay off the boards and EARN some respect.

[Gwence]

What I respect is people who have the mindset of learning things on their own and not asking for handouts (in this case - information) from the people who've already done it.

You dont want to do sky right now, cool. Then you shouldnt be concerned about it at all.

[Bossco]

I don't know Kutter, but I like his style

[Xzerion]

focus on the raid rules, this isnt supposed to be a pissing match thread, take that to R&F

[nerfed]

If a monk is splitting a boss from its adds and FDs to split does that make the boss (which is currently not engaged but also not at its spawn point) free for another guild to tag?

[Molitoth]

If a monk is splitting a boss from its adds and FDs to split does that make the boss (which is currently not engaged but also not at its spawn point) free for another guild to tag?

That would fall under the "don't be a douchebag" category.

[nerfed]

Can we all agree or at least get a dev to agree that it's a douchebag move so it doesn't happen in the future?

[Itchybottom]

I think common sense applies. I'd like to think we're all mature enough to not have to go to mommy and daddy for clarification of a rule like that? (well, aside from me -- clearly shown by my posts in this thread.)

[Humerox]

If a monk is splitting a boss from its adds and FDs to split does that make the boss (which is currently not engaged but also not at its spawn point) free for another guild to tag?

1) Not enough information.

2) Always two sides to a story.

Depends on the boss, how many adds, where the locations of the competing guilds are...and a whole slew of other things.

[guineapig]

What I respect is people who have the mindset of learning things on their own and not asking for handouts (in this case - information) from the people who've already done it.

It is supposed to be the same content as it was on live right? There are no big secrets in the game unless of course, shit is broken. Like I said, I was up there testing the zone out with a bunch of your fellow guild mates. I posted my bug reports and wanted to know what was fixed.


You dont want to do sky right now, cool. Then you shouldnt be concerned about it at all.

I'm concerned if shit is broken when it first goes live. There is a precedent for this being the case which made pretty much all content beyond trivial when it first went live. Blocking AoE in Fear, mobs not death touching, mobs not summoning, planar charmed pets lasting full duration. The list goes on and on. This isn't anybody's fault mind you, it's always a work in progress as to be expected. But this is how it also gets fixed. It's no different than when somebody asks on the forums if a certain quest has been fixed yet before they go trying it out for themselves only to end up loosing however many hours worth of work on the quest. This is what a community does. Most people on the forums can comprehend this.

Like I said, my questions were already answered by your guild mates so I really don't see why you are carying on like this. I was long done with the discussion when you decided to call me out for what ever reason. :confused:

Peace...

[Wrei]

I generally don't get into the mud slinging but this is absurd. The guilds have done a pretty good job ( if you can call sitting afk waiting for stuff to spawn a good job lololol) of getting spawns. Sometimes it swings one way, Sometimes the other. I don't think ANYONE can claim a "win" from the whole camping situation so settle down.
Some really loud and obnoxious members of DA, when you guys first initiated operation: Sit and camp shit and force the server to do the same, claimed "there's a new sheriff in town". I have yet to see IB defeated and dethroned. At best IB was forced to share some of the limelight and accept DA as a principle rival. Now i'm no enemy of DA. I respect a lot of your members and I believe I get the same, but seriously stop with the propaganda machine and re imagined history.

This is a cycle... not like anything new is here.

Step 1: Hey we're badass guild #372, we're so going to kick your butt cause we used to have guys who used to know somebody who used to be in a guild that wanted to be in an uber guild.

Step 2: Zomg IB are a bunch of no life / live at mom's basement / cheating / gm favored asshats.

Step 3: WTF why are we dying? Omg you guys all suck at this game. Mental block - this shit never happened ! Deny till you die on the forums.

Step 4: Go to p99 forums: Hey dudes congrats on beating shit that's 11 years old, you must feel really proud to be kind of a big deal!

Step 5: Repeat Step 2 - 4 until guild dissolved from epic failure.

Step 6: Go to p99 forums: Hey we're going casual but we're still badass guild #372 who'd wipe the floor with you, your just lucky we don't feel like proving it.

Step 7: Go to p99 forums: become uber internet troll by spreading more lies on IB and talking trash to upcoming uber guilds.

[Rogean]

Step 8: fail hardcore at amounting to anything and go to p99 forums to mega troll the server staff~

[Otto]

Step 8: fail hardcore at amounting to anything and go to p99 forums to mega troll the server staff~

That step has only been completed by a select few truly skilled individuals.

Much <3 to them.

[Aadill]

Rogean: Thank you for reposting the rules in the Library section. I feel that both of these threads should be locked and only discussed as separate topics.

Edit: The post in the library already is!~

[Remfin]

Step 8: fail hardcore at amounting to anything and go to p99 forums to mega troll the server staff~You forgot Step #9: Make all the people bitching about the guild's behavior on the forums look like idiots when it's revealed you aren't even a member of that guild in the first place.

See: The thread about a contested CT spawn about 2 months(?) ago when Aeolwind(?) revealed the troll had no connection to DA, and the cazicthule thread when it was proven the DA member called out as the troll could not possibly have been the troll (or rather, he had no motive and the timeline simply did not fit, I'm not sure if the troll or why he was trolling was ever positively identified).

[Noleafclover]

Q: Pulling a mob to another island in sky via rez, exploit or kosher?

Asking the devs...

[nerfed]

For non kill on sight bosses (a thunder spirit princess (http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=4940) and Gorgalosk (http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=3504) for instance) do camping rules apply or is it first engage?

[Remfin]

Q: Pulling a mob to another island in sky via rez, exploit or kosher?

Asking the devs...I reported it a while ago and got no response, and Rogean was in one of these threads saying it was fine.

I don't think whoever is making these decisions ever did Sky on Live...

[Bagzan]

I reported it a while ago and got no response, and Rogean was in one of these threads saying it was fine.

I don't think whoever is making these decisions ever did Sky on Live...

I can't comment on Sky specifically because it being the main raid zone was before my time but Rez and CoH pulling was used constantly on Live.

[Remfin]

I know that, but the pathing tables for PoSky did not overlap and mobs couldn't get to other islands without some certain (specific) tricks between certain specific islands.

A lot of raids thought Dojorn island was aggro for a long time due to latent aggro from other islands, but it was just due to the fact the blade storms could never cross.

[whitebandit]

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