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View Full Version : Nasa-funded study: industrial civilisation headed for 'irreversible collapse'?


Tradesonred
03-15-2014, 09:59 PM
More tinfoil-hattery for Rogean to ponder

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists

Natural and social scientists develop new model of how 'perfect storm' of crises could unravel global system

---------------

A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution.

Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that "the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history." Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to "precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common."

The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharri of the US National Science Foundation-supported National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics.

It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation:

"The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent."

By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, and Energy.

These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: "the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity"; and "the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or "Commoners") [poor]" These social phenomena have played "a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse," in all such cases over "the last five thousand years."

Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with "Elites" based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both:

"... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels."

The study challenges those who argue that technology will resolve these challenges by increasing efficiency:

"Technological change can raise the efficiency of resource use, but it also tends to raise both per capita resource consumption and the scale of resource extraction, so that, absent policy effects, the increases in consumption often compensate for the increased efficiency of resource use."

Productivity increases in agriculture and industry over the last two centuries has come from "increased (rather than decreased) resource throughput," despite dramatic efficiency gains over the same period.

Modelling a range of different scenarios, Motesharri and his colleagues conclude that under conditions "closely reflecting the reality of the world today... we find that collapse is difficult to avoid." In the first of these scenarios, civilisation:

".... appears to be on a sustainable path for quite a long time, but even using an optimal depletion rate and starting with a very small number of Elites, the Elites eventually consume too much, resulting in a famine among Commoners that eventually causes the collapse of society. It is important to note that this Type-L collapse is due to an inequality-induced famine that causes a loss of workers, rather than a collapse of Nature."

Another scenario focuses on the role of continued resource exploitation, finding that "with a larger depletion rate, the decline of the Commoners occurs faster, while the Elites are still thriving, but eventually the Commoners collapse completely, followed by the Elites."

In both scenarios, Elite wealth monopolies mean that they are buffered from the most "detrimental effects of the environmental collapse until much later than the Commoners", allowing them to "continue 'business as usual' despite the impending catastrophe." The same mechanism, they argue, could explain how "historical collapses were allowed to occur by elites who appear to be oblivious to the catastrophic trajectory (most clearly apparent in the Roman and Mayan cases)."

Applying this lesson to our contemporary predicament, the study warns that:

"While some members of society might raise the alarm that the system is moving towards an impending collapse and therefore advocate structural changes to society in order to avoid it, Elites and their supporters, who opposed making these changes, could point to the long sustainable trajectory 'so far' in support of doing nothing."

However, the scientists point out that the worst-case scenarios are by no means inevitable, and suggest that appropriate policy and structural changes could avoid collapse, if not pave the way toward a more stable civilisation.

The two key solutions are to reduce economic inequality so as to ensure fairer distribution of resources, and to dramatically reduce resource consumption by relying on less intensive renewable resources and reducing population growth:

"Collapse can be avoided and population can reach equilibrium if the per capita rate of depletion of nature is reduced to a sustainable level, and if resources are distributed in a reasonably equitable fashion."

The NASA-funded HANDY model offers a highly credible wake-up call to governments, corporations and business - and consumers - to recognise that 'business as usual' cannot be sustained, and that policy and structural changes are required immediately.

Although the study is largely theoretical, a number of other more empirically-focused studies - by KPMG and the UK Government Office of Science for instance - have warned that the convergence of food, water and energy crises could create a 'perfect storm' within about fifteen years. But these 'business as usual' forecasts could be very conservative.

Fame
03-15-2014, 10:01 PM
Rome is burning

BigHurb
03-15-2014, 10:12 PM
yea we invent just enough advanced stuff to barely offset the resource use, but it will be time to pay the piper soon and not just brown people

watch all the religious people act like they like science now ... backsliders!

also this is dierctly due to <Nihilum>

Tasslehofp99
03-15-2014, 10:57 PM
I didnt need a nasa study to tell me the world is fucked and we can't go on like this forever.

BigHurb
03-15-2014, 11:25 PM
doesnt hurt though

damn liberals and their science

Tradesonred
03-15-2014, 11:32 PM
I didnt need a nasa study to tell me the world is fucked and we can't go on like this forever.

lol

Some do though

BigHurb
03-16-2014, 12:26 AM
remember this part from the wall of text:

Collapse can be avoided, and population can reach a steady state at the maximum carrying capacity, if the rate of depletion of nature is reduced to a sustainable level, and if resources are distributed equitably.



YOU'VE BEEN TOLD ONCE. NATURE'S GM's DONT TAKE PETITIONS YA'LL. WE GON' GET PLANETBANNED

Thulack
03-16-2014, 01:14 AM
We are saving old people at the cost of others. The issue is the fact people are living longer and costing more and more babies are coming into the world causing the pop to grow and suck the economy. Personally ive thought for a long time that the US is too large to be controlled by just 1 government. We would be much better off with the US being split into different countries for the better of all.

Swish
03-16-2014, 05:08 AM
If you've got 5-10 minutes: http://youtu.be/EewGMBOB4Gg?t=7m35s

We're doomed to be poor. Fractional reserve banking etc, debt only goes up.

HeallunRumblebelly
03-16-2014, 09:23 AM
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7440ee811d11.jpg

Bazia
03-16-2014, 01:26 PM
One day we will run out of resources, which is kind of the definition of resource aka that they are finite.

How much money was wasted on this study?

No wonder NASA is a non factor, what's their next study going to conclude? That being hungry makes you want to eat food?

BigHurb
03-16-2014, 01:57 PM
it would be a good idea to get the values for all the consumption rates but they did simulations and matched it to ours, its a good start... people resist anything they dont understand, and when you explain it, its too late to do anything. sometimes u gotta act and let the stupid people spin in the wind. its not like they were going to do anything.

im a rich man in a poor mans body :)

HeallunRumblebelly
03-16-2014, 01:58 PM
One day we will run out of resources, which is kind of the definition of resource aka that they are finite.

How much money was wasted on this study?

No wonder NASA is a non factor, what's their next study going to conclude? That being hungry makes you want to eat food?

From a purely physical standpoint, things can be reconstituted even if they're changed chemically, the only input is energy (often times not feasible, but you catch my drift). Things required for life are food, water, shelter, all of which can be attained from natural resources, which are actually fairly easy to create.

BigHurb
03-16-2014, 02:35 PM
^

ps: this is nothing new, just that there is more computational power available

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2013-09-15/albert-bartlett-on-message-about-exponential-growth-to-the-end

Albert Bartlett been had dat.

"Can you think of any problem on any scale, from microscopic to global, whose long-term solution is in any demonstrable way aided, assisted or advanced by having larger populations at the local level, the state level, the national level, or globally?"


yes, i can... how to get the fuck off the planet. in all seriousness. someone will come up with the right inventions "faster" if more people are around thinking and doing and basically creating the crisis and thus the response

Tradesonred
03-16-2014, 04:12 PM
Living in the west is sort of like being in the top deck of the Titanic, getting distracted by the brass orchestra playing (media, sports, consumer culture, etc) and trying to ignore the shoutings coming from down below

HeallunRumblebelly
03-16-2014, 04:19 PM
Living in the west is sort of like being in the top deck of the Titanic, getting distracted by the brass orchestra playing (media, sports, consumer culture, etc) and trying to ignore the shoutings coming from down below

It's more like being in the top deck of the titanic in 50 foot of water. We'll stop sinking before we personally go down.

Tradesonred
03-16-2014, 04:47 PM
It's more like being in the top deck of the titanic in 50 foot of water. We'll stop sinking before we personally go down.

Yeah cuz were so shielded from ecosystems collapsing, im sure our financial and political elites will provide for everyone if the shit really hits the fan

HeallunRumblebelly
03-16-2014, 05:46 PM
Yeah cuz were so shielded from ecosystems collapsing, im sure our financial and political elites will provide for everyone if the shit really hits the fan

I just don't think it'll get as bad as you're saying is all.

Nuggie
03-16-2014, 06:13 PM
I just don't think it'll get as bad as you're saying is all.

If people get hungry... no no... if people's kids get hungry, expect riots in the streets.

Tecmos Deception
03-16-2014, 09:31 PM
If people get hungry... no no... if people's kids get hungry, expect riots in the streets.

Cause tens of thousands of kids IN THE US aren't hungry every day right now already?

Tradesonred
03-16-2014, 09:36 PM
Cause tens of thousands of kids IN THE US aren't hungry every day right now already?

Yeah but knowing that the food in the grocery store is gonna get rarer and rarer? Shits gonna get real, real fast

Ahldagor
03-16-2014, 10:01 PM
Primordial - As Rome Burns ("http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgvIgelDL7w"[url)

anyone for another global war?

BigHurb
03-16-2014, 10:42 PM
lol u can grow most of your required nutrition quite easily.. people are lazy, stuff does not reflect true cost, and the bubble will pop.

some of us already moved out of the bubble and the only effects we suffer is the un prepared beggars... so i just save extra for them. no biggie. living is easy. keeping sane is hard.

Ahldagor
03-16-2014, 11:19 PM
lol u can grow most of your required nutrition quite easily.. people are lazy, stuff does not reflect true cost, and the bubble will pop.

some of us already moved out of the bubble and the only effects we suffer is the un prepared beggars... so i just save extra for them. no biggie. living is easy. keeping sane is hard.

damn straight man. dontcha just love how western progress is starting to eat itself

Fame
03-17-2014, 12:11 AM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28757948.jpg

Bazia
03-17-2014, 01:58 AM
I think we need more NASA studies to point out ridiculously obvious facts.

BigHurb
03-17-2014, 03:11 AM
im running into people who dont know hot water freezes faster, or that climate change is accelerated by mans activities, or that space travel is the future

all these stupid people are boring but they can be smart too... just give em a chance.. someone gave me a chance

BigHurb
03-17-2014, 07:56 AM
This is the situation that I fear more than anything:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e63_1395021944

now, what part about having medical insurance would change that situation? a child puking blood, a doctor has no tools to help, and a mother has no training to save her child.

i try to learn as much traumatic injury first aid and other stuff but you cant just generate neurosurgeons or er docs... everyone talks about insurance this and that fuck that i want to treat workers like teachers doctors etc better than lawyers etc

Nuggie
03-17-2014, 05:08 PM
Cause tens of thousands of kids IN THE US aren't hungry every day right now already?

The fact that children miss a meal everyday of their lives saddens to me. The fact that it happens in the USA is disappointing to me. But that's not the hunger I'm referring to. I meant not eating for a week or more at a time. The kind of situation where children are starving to death in droves. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear on that point.

If there are situations like that in the USA please forgive my ignorance. I was fortunate to grow up in circumstances that sheltered me from that knowledge and I haven't been made aware of it.

BigHurb
03-17-2014, 05:27 PM
theres plenty of food in the US we just eat crap and waste it all ... would be hard to take that extra bite if you had to stare at the starving kid

out of sight out of mind for some of us.. torturous

Tradesonred
03-17-2014, 05:32 PM
I think we need more NASA studies to point out ridiculously obvious facts.

Yeah lets spend money smartly instead sending people to afghanistan to get their legs blown off or whatever so that corporations like Halliburton can get juicy contracts of off public money and get filthy rich off regular joes.

If a research into say, understanding what kind of systems could collapse first and what can be done to try to patch things up while we try to find solutions, isnt important, i dont know what is.

BigHurb
03-17-2014, 07:18 PM
future cars

Ahldagor
03-17-2014, 09:49 PM
theres plenty of food in the US we just eat crap and waste it all ... would be hard to take that extra bite if you had to stare at the starving kid

out of sight out of mind for some of us.. torturous

supply is grown to keep the cost of food down. plus the subsidies that also effect the cost to consumers. there's plenty of food but it's not channeled to those that need it but that can afford it.

Tradesonred
03-18-2014, 02:48 AM
US agriculture is pumping water out of the ground faster than it can replenish itself. Once those crops start to dust up they will come north here in Quebec to put pipelines to keep US agriculture on life support.

Quebec has a large amount of untapped freshwater. New York State is just under us.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Canada_Quebec_relief_location_map.jpg/492px-Canada_Quebec_relief_location_map.jpg

It doesnt have to get that bad but see the kind of looks i will get from people when i start stating basic facts like this, i have a better chance convincing them i got abducted by greys last night.

And yet this is basic, undisprovable, easy to find evidence

Seeing how well american soldiers treat the occupants of the countries they invade, maybe you can tell this isnt a pleasant scenario to entertain for me. It shouldnt be a scenario pleasant to entertain for anyone really.

Theres a long way to go before people just start to realize how late the hour is and the more time it takes the less reaction time we have to try to find a solution.

Same thing with climate change, fish stocks getting depleted, plankton (bottom of the ocean food chain) dying, ecosystems collapsing from pressure of too many species dying off and overlogging. Its probably gonna take catastrophes for people to get real, and who knows if it will be too late to react by then.

"Are Our Oceans Dying? Phytoplankton has Declined Terrifying 40% in 60 Years"

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/07/29-4

http://www.odec.ca/projects/2007/thom7h2/foodchain_files/food_chain.jpg

You have apocalyptic christians nuts actually working toward making this happen, polluting etc... on purpose because it will then trigger the last days

Wanting to destroy the 2nd most holiest islamic site after Mecca in Israel because its needed in the scriptures to trigger the last days

These people dont give 2 shits about arabs and jews caught in the middle, they want that site down. Guessing in their minds the more war the better as it acccelerates the path toward judgement day

Check out this good BBC documentary on christian apocalyptic nuts if you feel like digging in a bit more

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXeEi22BGt8

These people are sort of funny now, but theyll be scary if catastrophes start to get worse and more frequent and people actually start listening to cuckoos like the Phelps family

------

Theres protests everywhere for things to change before its too late, im joining em, heh

http://s28.postimg.org/c018idmq5/BGzr_FG7_CAAMe_B3_V.jpg

Tradesonred
03-18-2014, 03:48 AM
lol i didnt set out to post a join the protests post, i guess it just turned out that way

Oh, and dont forget your cameras

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyT1buoyTnY

Sidelle
03-18-2014, 04:20 AM
All these possible future scenarios, no matter what causes any of them, just makes it seem more and more sensible to prepare for it as best you can. At least keep a supply of extra food, water, medical supplies, and zombie-killing weapons... (lol, I jest..)

Doomsday people look mighty crazy - until shit hits the fan. You almost can't even blame them for building bunkers, etc. and hoarding guns, because the first people the desperate and starving will run to are the people who prepared.

After my food and water runs out I will be following Plan B and will promptly high-tail it to Mormom territory. They are required to stockpile food, etc to get them through at least one year after disaster strikes. Conversion would be swift since I'm a female of child-bearing age and can help repopulate the species. Jesus (the one who visited America in their bible) will have never felt so right.

(**Disclaimer**: Parts of this post are strictly for humor purposes only. You figure out which parts. The rest is a true story.)

Tradesonred
03-18-2014, 05:00 AM
All these possible future scenarios, no matter what causes any of them, just makes it seem more and more sensible to prepare for it as best you can. At least keep a supply of extra food, water, medical supplies, and zombie-killing weapons... (lol, I jest..)

Doomsday people look mighty crazy - until shit hits the fan. You almost can't even blame them for building bunkers, etc. and hoarding guns, because the first people the desperate and starving will run to are the people who prepared.

After my food and water runs out I will be following Plan B and will promptly high-tail it to Mormom territory. They are required to stockpile food, etc to get them through at least one year after disaster strikes. Conversion would be swift since I'm a female of child-bearing age and can help repopulate the species. Jesus (the one who visited America in their bible) will have never felt so right.


The best option is to try to stop it from happening before it happens, 2 years worth of tin cans aint gonna help things in the long run. If we cross that threshold where the temperature just keeps rising because methane is getting defrosted in the permafrost areas etc... were pretty much done unless we can figure out some large scale solution to pump out those chemicals from the atmosphere and quarantine them somewhere. Good luck with a large scale program like that if the world went to shit and its basically mad max out there.

I know youre half kidding, just couldnt find a witty non serious reply lol

Ahldagor
03-18-2014, 02:15 PM
lets go yellowstone lets go

Tradesonred
03-18-2014, 05:22 PM
Im a failed writer, i need an audience

Lune
03-18-2014, 05:29 PM
but if we care for the environment or try to manage growth then jobs are going to go away.

I heard it on TV

please dont make the jobs go away. how would i pay the interest on my credit cards?

Tradesonred
03-18-2014, 05:56 PM
but if we care for the environment or try to manage growth then jobs are going to go away.

I heard it on TV

please dont make the jobs go away. how would i pay the interest on my credit cards?

Right

What we need is a sharper saw to keep sawing the tree branch were all sitting on

BigHurb
03-18-2014, 05:57 PM
damn environmentalist and their conspiracies trying to make earth habitable for future generations.. im alive now, who the fuck cares??? thats why i dont recycle either.

Tradesonred
03-18-2014, 06:45 PM
damn environmentalist and their conspiracies trying to make earth habitable for future generations.. im alive now, who the fuck cares??? thats why i dont recycle either.

Preach it

Trying to scare us "Oh, if you cut all the trees, then we lose all that CO2 absorption and theyre the ones to produce alot of the oxygen we breath blablabla"

Boo hoo fucking hoo