Hybrids to auto gain levels when penalty removed?

[Mirana]

ORIGINAL POST ANSWERED LOWER ON PAGE. Thanks Mirox.


I'm sorry if this has been asked before, I did a search and could not find information. With Velious comes the removal of the hybrid exp penalty. Now my understanding based on this formula
L^3 * C * R * H
Is that a hybrid requires 1.4* the exp to level. So to pull some numbers out of my bum (excluding various race penalties etc)... say it takes 20 million exp to hit level 20 on a ranger. And say a warrior gets level 24 with the same amount of exp. Does that mean that once the changes go into effect, the ranger will log in and be level 24 as a result of the amount of exp required to level being reduced?

I was told this was how it worked on live (although the informant may be misremembering).

Thanks!

[Daldaen]

I think it would be cool if they did that. Since 2 extra years of hybrid penalty is a bit much. And it would maybe give encouragement to actually play a hybrid now. I hear a lot of people saying they'll play one once the penalty is removed...

I honestly can't remember what they did, and I recall asking about it a few weeks ago but I forget what was said.

[Daysprung]

No. Just no. This is not what they did and this is not what p1999 will do.

[Mirox]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, I did a search and could not find information. With Velious comes the removal of the hybrid exp penalty. Now my understanding based on this formula
L^3 * C * R * H
Is that a hybrid requires 1.4* the exp to level. So to pull some numbers out of my bum (excluding various race penalties etc)... say it takes 20 million exp to hit level 20 on a ranger. And say a warrior gets level 24 with the same amount of exp. Does that mean that once the changes go into effect, the ranger will log in and be level 24 as a result of the amount of exp required to level being reduced?

I was told this was how it worked on live (although the informant may be misremembering).

Thanks!

I think they offset XP from kills to make up for the 1.4 exp needed to make it more balanced. I don't think they re-calculated everyone's xp and gave them the appropriate xp gains.

[myxomatosii]

this is dangerous, the simultaneous dings heard throughout the land would deafen many players and NPCs

do we have the infrastructure in place for a massive increase in the deaf population?

Freeport doesn't even have wheelchair accessible stairs

[Mirox]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, I did a search and could not find information. With Velious comes the removal of the hybrid exp penalty. Now my understanding based on this formula
L^3 * C * R * H
Is that a hybrid requires 1.4* the exp to level. So to pull some numbers out of my bum (excluding various race penalties etc)... say it takes 20 million exp to hit level 20 on a ranger. And say a warrior gets level 24 with the same amount of exp. Does that mean that once the changes go into effect, the ranger will log in and be level 24 as a result of the amount of exp required to level being reduced?

I was told this was how it worked on live (although the informant may be misremembering).

Thanks!


Found this:

January 14, 2001

Experience Penalties - Description

I think that it would be appropriate to say that most players are aware that there are different experience requirements for advancement based upon the race and class you choose to play. Ogres, for instance, require more experience to level than Halflings, and Shadowknights require more experience to level than Warriors. As such, an Ogre Shadowknight requires FAR more experience to level than a Halfling Warrior does. What some people have discovered is that when in a group, everyone shares in this penalty. Before getting into our plan, I think that its important to talk about what our goals were regarding experience penalties and the group sharing in that penalty.

When EverQuest player characters were being designed, it was immediately apparent that some races and classes would be more powerful than others given versatility and other factors. Later, it came to light that the concept of being "more powerful" began to break down at the upper levels, given that everyone capped at the same level. We could not let any one race or class be immensely more powerful than another at that final point, as it would essentially put parts of the game off limits to those who chose the less powerful classes. While we did a good job of making races vary in power, but not so much as to be unbalancing, the same could not be said for classes. Still, though classes would be roughly equivalent in regard to the compelling reason to play them through versatility, the experience penalties were kept.

In regards to the sharing of the experience penalty, it was apparent in beta, before the penalty was shared, that those playing characters without an experience penalty leveled faster than those that did. It was obvious that this would occur, but it was to the extreme that a group of friends, all playing together, would become separated to the point that they could no longer group efficiently in the mid to upper-mid levels. So we chose to distribute experience in the group on the basis of the total experience of each member rather than the level, in order to keep groups together.

As such, a level 20 Troll SK, having more experience total than a Human Wizard of the same level, would get more experience from each kill, while the total experience for the kill was unchanged. Essentially, the SK would take part of the Wizard's share were everything distributed equally to begin with.

Experience Penalties - Resolutions

Over the past week the EverQuest team has been considering experience penalties in all their forms. We had many meetings where the issue was hotly debated from both sides. We had to consider not only the effect on the individualplayer, but also the effect of any changes on the game as a whole. Eventually, we nearly unanimously decided the following:


1. Race-based penalties are appropriate. An ogre, for instance, does indeed make a better warrior than a halfling. It is not so little that the faction and size problems make up for it, and not so much that it is really unbalancing at upper levels, but enough that the penalty should apply. Secondly, the penalty is not so severe (compared with class-based penalties) that it would cause groups to break up on the journey from one to sixty due to level differences.

2. Class-based penalties are not appropriate. Classes are roughly equivalent in power throughout the level ranges, and the versatility does not make up for that penalty. In fact, the majority of changes made to classes in the name of balance in the last year were based on the assumption that, at the high end, each class should still be roughly as needed and balanced as any other.

3. Penalties, in any form, should not be shared with the group. Players know that no one class is immensely more powerful/valuable than another, and as such it is not fair to ask them to share a burden. If classes with penalties were really more powerful or valuable than the other classes, then it might be right, but that isn't the case here. Furthermore, sharing of penalties causes people to reject potential group members on the basis of them "sucking" too much experience.

4. We're going to fix it.

5. Class-based experience bonuses (which warriors and rogues get) are also not appropriate, as they cannot be so if penalties are not. However, we've decided to leave this as-is, since the bonus is not so severe as to be unbalancing. Bottom line: we don't feel the bonus is enough to warrant a fix that could be interpreted as a 'nerf'.


Experience Penalties - Implementation

Though people often refer to the class-based penalties as the "Hybrid Penalty", most classes have a penalty. Hybrids just have the largest. A hybrid requires 40% more experience to level than standard, Monks require 20% more, and Intelligence casters require 10% additional experience.

Unfortunately, we cannot change the experience tables themselves without running each character (which number in the tens of millions) through an "Experience Converter" without existing players changing levels spontaneously. While some might argue that we should grant free levels to everyone with a penalty, that would not be in the best interest of gameplay. After all, who would want a paladin with level 40 skills (skills in the player-sense, rather than the character-sense) in your level 60 group tomorrow? Everyone earns his or her experience under the rules that exist at the time.

This means that we must address the penalty differently: basically, for every kill, after all grouping bonuses and zone bonuses are applied, the experience will be split up according to level, rather than experience. For those classes that do not have a penalty, they will then be given that share. Those classes that have a penalty will get their share, multiplied by their experience penalty. Essentially we are creating extra experience to give to those with a penalty after everyone else has gotten their share.

Since penalties are always a value over "1", this results in the creation of additional experience. And, since shares are determined by level rather than total experience as before, a character will get just as much experience for a kill based upon the size and level of the group, regardless of the class makeup. Finally, everyone in the group gains experience at a faster rate because we're creating the additional experience for those with penalties out of thin air, rather than taking it from other members of the group. That means that after implementation, those without penalties will get more experience for every kill than they would have if they ever grouped with a class with a penalty.

Now you'll notice that we are dividing up experience based upon the LEVEL makeup of the group. For instance, if a level 20 and a level 21 group together, the level 21 will get more experience per kill. That is however only fair since the level 21 does actually contribute more value to the group.

There is a problem, however, with this 'new' formula. Death penalties are currently based off of the level before your current one. Secondly, everyone suffers the same numeric experience loss on death as anyone else of their race, regardless of class or class-based experience penalties. What this means is: if I am a cleric, and you are an SK of the same level and race, we both die and lose the same numeric value of experience (Example: 100,000 experience points). When we go back to recover from death, you as the SK will get your 100,000 points back faster than I will as a cleric, since all of the experience you get is multiplied by your class-penalty (1.4). Essentially, I lose and gain experience at 1.0, but you lose at 1.0, and gain at 1.4.

This is a balance issue we decided was also necessary to address. If we are going to make the statement that class experience penalties should not exist, we then have to do it on both ends (with exception to the two classes that we've decided to leave as-is). As such, rather than losing the same numeric value, loss on death will ALSO be multiplied by the experience penalty. Since everyone currently loses experience as if they are a warrior of their own race, we do not want anyone to lose more relative experience (e.g. experience such that recovery from death is more difficult). Hence, we further multiply the experience loss on death by the class experience modifier for warriors (0.9).

In our example above, my cleric would lose 90,000 XP on death at my level (Same as before since clerics do not have an XP penalty), but your SK will lose 126,000 XP (Same as before, plus something to offset the experience gain bonus). Death is, however, still easier to recover from for both classes since we create experience out of thin air for every kill.

We felt that it was important to announce this as well since those with penalties will see a larger portion of their "bubble" lost upon a death, but will now recover that experience much faster. It's VERY important to understand this. Again, if you play a class that gets a bonus now when you make a kill, you will also lose more due to death. Please remember this when, after your first death post-patch, you see a greater experience loss on your screen: you are ALSO gaining more experience for each kill.

[Mirana]

Great post Mirox...

To summarize for everyone:
exp tables remain unchanged, but hybrids essentially get a 1.4* multiplier to exp gained from kills (they get more exp per kill to offset the increased exp required to level).

That makes a lot more sense. Thanks all.

[Stonecrush]

this is dangerous, the simultaneous dings heard throughout the land would deafen many players and NPCs

do we have the infrastructure in place for a massive increase in the deaf population?

Freeport doesn't even have wheelchair accessible stairs


Man, there are ramps everywhere. Wheel chair accessible *check*.

Although the bank tellers don't recognize braille paperwork. They could be handing you gp's instead of your pp's. :rolleyes:

[Calabee]

lol culprit could ding back 60!

[Ugrask]

^ - And no one wants that.

[Calabee]

go make up ur mind on wut to play :P

[Ugrask]

Says the asshat with how many characters in his sig? Bitch please.

[Cecily]

I'm counting 4... no 8 you're right.

[Sarajo]

finally, a post that explains the teeny tiny death penalty during hell levels!

[Mirana]

Just realized... does the same logic apply to quest experience? Will hybrids also get 1.4* the exp reward from quests once the penalty is removed?

[blondeattk]

`Since penalties are always a value over "1", this results in the creation of additional experience. And, since shares are determined by level rather than total experience as before, a character will get just as much experience for a kill based upon the size and level of the group, regardless of the class makeup. Finally, everyone in the group gains experience at a faster rate because we're creating the additional experience for those with penalties out of thin air, rather than taking it from other members of the group. That means that after implementation, those without penalties will get more experience for every kill than they would have if they ever grouped with a class with a penalty.

Now you'll notice that we are dividing up experience based upon the LEVEL makeup of the group. For instance, if a level 20 and a level 21 group together, the level 21 will get more experience per kill. That is however only fair since the level 21 does actually contribute more value to the group.`


this mean the lowest lvl char in grp gets exp off a mob green to highest lvl?

[Clark]

No. Just no. This is not what they did and this is not what p1999 will do.

[Mirana]

^excellent contribution.

[Gaffin 7.0]

this is probably the most stupid thread i ever read

[cries4hardcore]

If they did this wouldnt they also have to give the people who you drained of xp in groups the missing xp too?

[odiecat99]

^excellent contribution.

thats how clark rolls.. same thing ingame also.