Torpor Mana Expenditure

[Daldaen]

http://web.archive.org/web/20030110041715/http://www.everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=127792&mode=details&spname=Torpor&type=

Last in the regeneration line. This spell will regen 1200 hitpoints in 24 seconds, but it roots you in place, lowers your mana, and slows your attack for the duration.

Effects:
Increased Regen Rate
Reduce Mana
Reduce Attack Speed
Root

As to the mana loss, I am not sure. I have heard that it takes 200 mana, so that casting it on yourself is about 375 mana. However considering that you can get 1200 hp with the spell, and can canna down at about a 50% ratio, at the absolute worst, you get 600 mana back with cannabalize. And I am not sure the mana cost is that high, so you may get 600 mana back with a 175, not 375 mana cost.

This indicates Torpor itself had a special mana penalty, akin to Succor line of spells, that is an aside from the Mana Cost of the spell.

So Torpor should cost 200 mana (which is subject to Specialization Mana Preservation) and then remove an additional 200 mana from your mana pool.

[Danth]

I posted research a couple years ago on this subject. The general consensus was that the mana tap component was at most a brief experiment on the test server that never went live.

Danth

[Daldaen]

I posted research a couple years ago on this subject. The general consensus was that the mana tap component was at most a brief experiment on the test server that never went live.

Danth

I know this is late but I was curious about this. I find it peculiar that this was a 'test server experiment' when there are a few mentions to it across both of the big spell data sites of the day:

Caster's Realm 2001 (https://web.archive.org/web/20011227232254/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1219)

Actual Effects: Target: Regenerate Health (1200)
Target: Slow Attack Rate (30%)
Target: Snare
Target: Reduce Mana (50)

DARN MANA CHANGES, By Zagukahnn (1/28/2001)

With the new mana changes this spell is now a melee only spell and maybe warrior only at that. This spell has now been removed as a solo heal spell since with the 400 mana cost to a self cast its only slightly better than SH. Anyways a great spell for use on the warrior or OOM hybrid. Zag

Looks to me like Torpor is a 300HP HoT with a 50 mana drain (total of 200 mana drain) when added up over all the ticks. Which is what both this and the evelore posts say. Which makes sense.

[khanable]

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.games.everquest/98xbrPzQqYI/discussion -> expand topic and start at the top

may 2000

Torpor is nice at 60, but only useful on warriors/monks/rogues...the -200
mana it sticks on the target makes it worthless for anyone else.

Torpor now sucks *400* mana from the target. It can't be used in combat on
tanks (Tagar effect) and will over-write anyone's SoW (as it Roots the
target). It is a pet heal and worthless for any other use.

Torpor used to be a really cool, interesting, tactical spell, now
it's shit. Don't forget that it overwrites SoW and all haste buffs
too.

>> Torpor is nice at 60, but only useful on
>> warriors/monks/rogues...the -200 mana it sticks on the target
>> makes it worthless for anyone else.
>
>Torpor now sucks *400* mana from the target.
No it doesn't. No possible interpretation of the spell gives 400
mana. Torpor either:

a) Takes 50 mana directly from the target.
or
b) Takes 50 mana per tick for four ticks from the target for a total
of 200 mana.

It's either A or B. If it's A (which I very much doubt) Torpor is
actually a pretty good spell. Not great, not what a level 60 spell
SHOULD be, but a pretty good spell.

But we both know it's gonna be B, now don't we?

>It can't be used in
>combat on tanks (Tagar effect) and will over-write anyone's SoW
>(as it Roots the target). It is a pet heal and worthless for any
>other use.
It's not supposed to be used in combat; that's the entire point of
the spell... and I'm cool with that. But the increased mana cost and
the 200 mana drain from target make it marginal for DOWNTIME
healing-- and that I'm NOT cool with.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/torpor|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/qubxhXezj2c/poGHwn-mvwQJ

june/july 2000

I'm not sure how useful Torpor will be...the rooting portion makes it very marginal
I think--mobs have a tendency to move around depending on last pissed
it off most. I certainly do not see this being cast on a caster of any sort.

Torpor is the single best downtime reducer for melee classes bar none.
It's incredibly fast and efficient.

[Locust]

RIP shamans

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010221a.html

FEBRUARY 21, 2001

"Created a new spell effect for Celestial Healing, Celestial Elixir, and Torpor. This will allow them to stack with all other spells, save spells of the same type (Heal over time). Prior to this, all heal-over-time spells followed the same rules as regeneration spells."

does this mean torpor (and CE) should over-write regeneration spells too?

[Potus]

I know this is late but I was curious about this. I find it peculiar that this was a 'test server experiment' when there are a few mentions to it across both of the big spell data sites of the day:

Caster's Realm 2001 (https://web.archive.org/web/20011227232254/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1219)





Looks to me like Torpor is a 300HP HoT with a 50 mana drain (total of 200 mana drain) when added up over all the ticks. Which is what both this and the evelore posts say. Which makes sense.

That link makes it sound like it only reduces mana by 50. It lists heal as 1200, not per tick.

[Daldaen]

Aye I agree, I read it that way first too... but coupled with the comments about 375 or 400 mana cost (400-200=200...200/4ticks=50) lead me to believe its per tick drain. Makes the most sense that way.

[Daldaen]

PS Thanks Cucumbers for keeping it classic and posting up your evidence.

The facts currently are that it sucked mana back in May 2000 (mid-Kunark) and Jan 2001 (early-Velious). The mana sucked seems to all point towards 50/tick leading to 200 total for the player it's cast on. When cast on a melee it is the same as it is currently.

The main thing that I'd like to figure out now is when the mana drain was removed from the spell. I'd guess mid-late Velious or early Luclin. I shall investigate further on this end. But as it stands, until Velious is released this should be draining 50 mana a tick on whoever it's cast on.

[SyanideGas]

PS Thanks Cucumbers for keeping it classic and posting up your evidence.

The facts currently are that it sucked mana back in May 2000 (mid-Kunark) and Jan 2001 (early-Velious). The mana sucked seems to all point towards 50/tick leading to 200 total for the player it's cast on. When cast on a melee it is the same as it is currently.

The main thing that I'd like to figure out now is when the mana drain was removed from the spell. I'd guess mid-late Velious or early Luclin. I shall investigate further on this end. But as it stands, until Velious is released this should be draining 50 mana a tick on whoever it's cast on.

Velious right around the corner, not worth the nerf imo.

Don't hurt the love for my favorite character plz

[pasi]

Daldaen and Cucumbers doing work.

[Byrjun]

Don't think P99 was ever intended to emulate the Test server.

[Peekae]

Yeah was looking through the posts but its hard to tell. It kinda sounds like its coming from a test server build maybe? idk if these were live changes or not however I didn't play a shaman in kunark so I'm not sure.

[Daldaen]

Don't think P99 was ever intended to emulate the Test server.

Dunno we have quotes in May/June 2000 and Jan 2001. That's an awful long time to be on test.

[thieros]

Just a general question, no facts in those post:

If I self torpor that burns 390 mana (with proposed 50 manadrain/tick) for 1200 hp. in the length of a torpor, one can cast

5 canni 3 &5 canni 2 = 410 mana @ -835 hp. = 20 mana mana @ +365hp after torpor

5 canni 4 & 5 canni 3 = 655 mana @ -1240hp = 265 mana gain @ -40hp after torpor

So to torpor midfight if tanking a slowed mob...

If thats how torpor was back in the day, how the heck did shamans solo lodizal? It doesnt seem like it would be efficient enough to manage this fight...

[Daldaen]

Either Canni IV, or it was removed by the time shamans solo'd him.

5 Canni 4s is 740 HP for 410 mana. Recovering all the mana you lost Torporing and still gaining 560 HP for free.

Where are the posts of him being soloed pre-Luclin though?

[Byrjun]

I played a shaman during this time and I don't remember Torpor draining mana. I started around the time Kunark released and probably didn't get 60+Torpor until early Velious, so it's entirely possible that I started using Torpor right after it was un-nerfed. However, as I will get to there are posts from 2002 still claiming that Torpor drains mana and that definitely wasn't the case.

Also, there was very little in-game info as to what a spell did back then, so the only way to tell was to read sites like Caster's Realm (which pulled from the spdat file) or cast the spell and watch what happened. It's possible that I didn't realize this drained mana, but I doubt it.

Now, as for the "evidence."

The first quote is someone saying they "heard" it drains mana, and it's from 2002. Torpor most definitely did not drain mana in 2002, and every other reply is pure conjecture based on the Everlore description.

Next issue: You have some people saying it can't be used as a self-heal, and others saying it can, within the same frame of time. You are, of course, cherry picking responses to post here.

01/28/2001 (the one you posted):

With the new mana changes this spell is now a melee only spell and maybe warrior only at that. This spell has now been removed as a solo heal spell since with the 400 mana cost to a self cast its only slightly better than SH. Anyways a great spell for use on the warrior or OOM hybrid. Zag

06/04/2001 (the one you ignored):

Sigh... think a little. This is one of the best shaman solo spell, when used as a downtime reducer.

Regrowth, put your Fungi on, Cannib like crazy to 1 bub of health, then cast Torpor. Repeat and rinse until an extremely fast full mana.

Very much like a cleric using a manastone and CH, except that you aren't limited to the old world.

06/16/2001 (the other one you ignored):

THIS SPELL IS INCREDIBLE, By Jamalia (6/16/2001)

You can heal so much for so little with this spell. Shaman who know what they are doing can kill just about anything by themselves using this their epic a jaundiced bone bracer, slow and a pet.

So... moving on to khanable's post. There's about three people talking about Torpor draining mana, and they all seem to be misinformed about something. For example, one guy mentions Superior Healing sucks because you can't channel level 53 spells. What? I don't know what's up with these guys, it's entirely possible that they're noobs regurgitating info they read on Everlore.

Locust linked the patch notes... but they're completely unrelated. Those patch notes are about Torpor stacking with other spells, but nothing about a mana drain component.

The facts currently are that it sucked mana back in May 2000 (mid-Kunark) and Jan 2001 (early-Velious). The mana sucked seems to all point towards 50/tick leading to 200 total for the player it's cast on. When cast on a melee it is the same as it is currently.

Still trying to find these "facts" you mention. In fact the post immediately before this one mentions that the Caster's Realm spell info contradicts you, since it's listed as gain 1200 HP, drain 50 mana. Not 50 mana per tick.

So, that's the info you're presenting so far. Contradictory statements, and people who obviously don't understand EQ mechanics claiming this spell had a mana drain. Shaky sources at best.

My conclusion is still that the Everlore and Caster's Realm sites pulled spell info from the Test server spdat file, then every level 10 forum warrior read that and started taking it as gospel. There's no posts by level 60 shamans confirming this nerf. If better evidence is presented I will support a Torpor nerf, but at this point it feels like lazy agenda pushing.

[Daldaen]

But why does the shaman need to gain mana?

He need to Malo, slow and then epic DoT, pet, JBB, melee. The only mana use would be recasting slow every 5-6min. He would just need to Canni enough to maintain mana for torpor. Doesn't need to gain above and beyond that.

Add in regen items like fungi, DS potions, Regrowth and clarity... I don't see why it becomes undoable.

But again. The posts about him being soloed are Luclin. Which includes stacking FT, better gear, better spells and most important horse. Which allows him to med while standing. Plus I think Torpor was reverted to the version we have here some time early Luclin or late Velious but still am searching.

[Daldaen]

Probably the most important thing from this thread is that torpor should remove all Runspeed buffs. Sounds like it should root and not snare too? Possibly people just exaggerating the extent of the snare or encumbered people.

[Daldaen]

November 2000 Patch (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20001116.html)

The spell Torpor received an unintentional reduction in effectiveness.

Possibly it was temporarily broken here? But the timeline doesn't make sense much. If there are quotes from May 2000 and January 2001, but the patch would make it seem it was an overnight thing patched quickly. Reduction of effectiveness is pretty vague too.

[Byrjun]

The best source of information for shaman stuff at this time was the Shaman's Crucible. The earliest that the wayback machine will go is March 6th, 2001.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010306045541/http://www.eqforge.com/shaman/spells/level_60.htm

Torpor
Mana: 200
Duration: ~24s
Torpor will regenerate 1200 HP over 4 ticks, however while in effect it will snare you, and reduce your attack speed (note: Some Shaman have reported Torpor doing 1540 over 5 ticks).

Also worth mentioning that this same listing reports that Avatar is supposed to overwrite the Strength line, but I don't think this happens on P99. Worth looking into further.

[Daldaen]

Going through the crucible spells some of those values are weird.

Malosini has a 6 min duration
Canni III returns only 38 mana

But that does seem evidence to indicate it wasn't draining mana in mid Velious.

[evilkorn]

It really hurts me to do this but...

We do use the post April 17, 2001 version of canni.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010417a.html

Cannibalize IV now exists. This spell is now available in Velious.
Cannibalize II and III have had their effects improved. They now return more mana to the caster than they did before.

Cannibalize III
-78 HP / + 36 to 38 Mana

There is no details for Canni II though.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010426023443/http://interealms.com/shaman/spells/allspells.htm

The other thing to note for Avatar is: +100 Strength, Dexterity, Agility, and Attack Avatar requires an Emerald to cast. It will overwrite our 57 Strength buff, and has a recast delay of 3 minutes.

On topic though it does not list any mana drain on Torpor: Torpor will regenerate 1200 HP over 4 ticks, however while in effect it will snare you, and reduce your attack speed (note: Some Shaman have reported Torpor doing 1540 over 5 ticks).

[Technique]

But that does seem evidence to indicate it wasn't draining mana in mid Velious.Velious spdat on the trilogy cd last modified 8/22/01:

Torpor

Increase Heal over Time by 300 (L60)
Decrease Movement by 100% (L60)
Decrease Attack Speed by 30% (L60)

Classes: Shm (L60)
Skill: Alteration
Allowable Targets: All
Range to Target: 100 feet
Resistance Check: None
Mana Required: 200
Spell Duration: 4 ticks (24 seconds)
Duration Formula: 10
Casting Time: 6.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds
Spell cast on you: You fall into a state of torpor.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso falls into a state of torpor.
Spell fades: Your state of torpor ends.

[Daldaen]

The Kunark and Velious discs don't download a spell file right? That was something that we patched each time we loaded? Or will it have a stock "release" spell data file? I know I have my discs somewhere. I may see if they load up a spell data file that may point to mana drain on it at either Kunark or Velious release if that's the case.

If neither of them have it then I'd say it's a closed case.

[Ele]

It really hurts me to do this but...

We do use the post April 17, 2001 version of canni.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010417a.html

Cannibalize IV now exists. This spell is now available in Velious.
Cannibalize II and III have had their effects improved. They now return more mana to the caster than they did before.

Cannibalize III
-78 HP / + 36 to 38 Mana

There is no details for Canni II though.

This July 25, 2001 snapshot of Caster's Realm shows Canni II as -67 hp // +28 to +33 mana.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010725174350/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1222

Does P99 currently use the mana return listed on the wiki +30 to +36?

http://wiki.project1999.com/Cannibalize_II

[evilkorn]

Canni II is correct at -67hp / 33mana @60 Wiki is incorrect, but that would make it post canni IV patch.

[khanable]

Velious spdat about a week or so after release (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1488390&postcount=13):

Torpor
Regeneration for 1200 Hit Points (HP) in 4 ticks
Decrease Attack Speed by 30% (L60)
Decrease Movement by 100% (L60)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: Shm (L60)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Alteration
Allowable Targets: All

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mana Required: 200
Spell Duration: 4 ticks (24 seconds)
Duration Formula: 10
Casting Time: 6.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell cast on you: You fall into a state of torpor.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso falls into a state of torpor.
Spell fades: Your state of torpor ends.


Need a kunark spdat

[Husalah]

Velious spdat about a week or so after release:

Torpor
Regeneration for 1200 Hit Points (HP) in 4 ticks
Decrease Attack Speed by 30% (L60)
Decrease Movement by 100% (L60)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: Shm (L60)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Alteration
Allowable Targets: All

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mana Required: 200
Spell Duration: 4 ticks (24 seconds)
Duration Formula: 10
Casting Time: 6.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell cast on you: You fall into a state of torpor.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso falls into a state of torpor.
Spell fades: Your state of torpor ends.


Need a kunark spdat

spdats are alpha/beta values...

Bryjun destroying the selfish agendas of OP and followers. Stop quoting random_forum_post_001 as hard evidence.

[khanable]

spdats are alpha/beta values...

What?

Bryjun destroying the selfish agendas of OP and followers. Stop quoting random_forum_post_001 as hard evidence.

90% of the things that get "fixed" here are from old forum posts.

[Daldaen]

Kinda have to go with what you're given. Especially when the 2 sites that provided spell data during that era, listed the same thing. And there isn't much other info about it since very few were level 60, and even fewer had that very rare spell drop.

As khanable said also... That's sort of how stuff works around here. Old forum posts and website posts.

[Crom]

So we would get the correct info if someone like me who still have all original CD's up to
planes of Power would just look at the spell file ? (not the boxes that came later but each CD for each expansion)
would that be correct ?

[Daldaen]

That was my question. I thought spell files were based off their patch server and the discs themselves didn't have "stock" spell data files... But they might just to include new spell effects and whatnot.

But to do that, they would have to not patch the spell data file from the time all those discs were burned and sold to distributors, to the time the expansion released for the spell files to be relevant.

I'm sure it would take only 5 min to load up Kunark but I'd have to figure out where I put them.

[khanable]

would be more interested in a mid-kunark spdat file, not the disc one. I think the consensus here is the disc one was all sorts of fucked up?

and I wouldn't exactly say all spdat is 100% correct, but it's always something to look at

the spdat I posted above is supposedly a few days after velious release, and shows no mana reduction on torpor, which I would like to think means that torpor had no such effect during the velious time period.

[Crom]

would be more interested in a mid-kunark spdat file, not the disc one. I think the consensus here is the disc one was all sorts of fucked up?

and I wouldn't exactly say all spdat is 100% correct, but it's always something to look at

the spdat I posted above is supposedly a few days after velious release, and shows no mana reduction on torpor, which I would like to think means that torpor had no such effect during the velious time period.

There are forum post on diffrent sites that say that sony/VI unintentional removed the mana drain from Torpor after a while....post by Shamans..but none that I could find that say when they did it.

[khanable]

There are forum post on diffrent sites that say that sony/VI unintentional removed the mana drain from Torpor after a while....post by Shamans..but none that I could find that say when they did it.

post them..?

[Husalah]

A velious spdat off disc is going to most likely resemble mid to late kunark live.

A kunark spdat will most likely resemble beta/alpha kunark.

Spells were patched. Unless you think that each hard copy of a CD has incremented versions and a CD from January will be an older version of EverQuest than a CD from March...

I understand that forum posts are usually the best case scenario, but when your selectively quoting 2/4 that are in favor of your argument, and ignoring the other 2/4 that are not in favor... you see the bias?

[Daldaen]

I don't think any of the posts that I linked (or posts on websites I linked) said "no you're a noob, these don't drain mana."

The extra posts were indifferent to the topic. They talk about it being a good healing spell or downtime spell. Which is irrelevant to the conversation?

[Husalah]

Bry was quoting posts from the same threads you linked, which oppose your argument?

[Daldaen]

They refer to healing a lot and using it as a downtime reducer. Both of which are true, regardless of whether it drained the targets mana or not.

[khanable]

A velious spdat off disc is going to most likely resemble mid to late kunark live.

A kunark spdat will most likely resemble beta/alpha kunark.

Spells were patched. Unless you think that each hard copy of a CD has incremented versions and a CD from January will be an older version of EverQuest than a CD from March...

I understand that forum posts are usually the best case scenario, but when your selectively quoting 2/4 that are in favor of your argument, and ignoring the other 2/4 that are not in favor... you see the bias?

We don't know what spdat "resembles" what time period. That's why I asked for more. I don't have a mid kunark one. Looking for differences helps?

I don't know what link you're looking at, but I don't think there was anything that I left out?

[Crom]

This is one, but still no date when it was done other the ref to the spell, but poster talks about a mana drain and torpor:

http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/soearchive/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=68239&start=250

"This ironically was the begining of the downward spiral since they pretty much changed what the class was about. They unnerfed Torpor by accident and left off the mana drain. They added primal avatar since no one actually used avatar anyway. "

[Technique]

a velious spdate off disc is going to most likely resemble mid to late kunark liveWhen it includes spells that were introduced in Velious, it's a pretty safe bet it's not from mid-Kunark.

Do you honestly think they were printing expansion discs with builds that were already several months old? The last modified timestamps on the files don't lie.

[Daldaen]

This is one, but still no date when it was done other the ref to the spell, but poster talks about a mana drain and torpor:

http://www.elitegamerslounge.com/home/soearchive/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=68239&start=250

"This ironically was the begining of the downward spiral since they pretty much changed what the class was about. They unnerfed Torpor by accident and left off the mana drain. They added primal avatar since no one actually used avatar anyway. "

Very interdasting

[Crom]

uploaded a Spdat.eff file from the original kunark CD (date 2000-03-14)

[Treats]

uploaded a Spdat.eff file from the original kunark CD (date 2000-03-14)

Kunark Beta still unfortunately, same one I have for Kunark.

[koros]

Nirgon posted some ones from mid velious last year but the links are dead now.

[BlkCamel]

If Topor ever had a mana drain it was temporary. I NEVER remember Torpor having a mana drain, as posted this would be useless and be put on the DO NOT CAST list for any raid. The only spells that did was the Rage lines which were self only.


Edit*** Some evidence there was a mana drain during a portion of Kunark, this was either before I recieved my copy or I never noticed it/didn't remember it.

[Byrjun]

They refer to healing a lot and using it as a downtime reducer. Both of which are true, regardless of whether it drained the targets mana or not.

Those posts were talking about casting Torpor on yourself while you fight a difficult mob.

You're not even reading the contradicting evidence, do you realize how obvious it is that you're pushing a personal agenda?

Sidenote: I do remember the Cannibalize spells getting improved, I just never did the research to see if P99 was using pre-buff or post-buff Canni stats. But again, I don't remember Torpor draining your mana. I accept that the mana drain could have been removed just before I got the spell, but I don't see any evidence supporting this right now.

[Daldaen]

I still fail to understand why them talking about Torporing yourself while fighting a difficult mob is evidence that it didn't drain mana... Its 400 for 1200 HP... 1500 if server tick likes you (for 450). The ratio of HP:Mana crushes Superior Healing, and allows you to do other things like JBB, DoT, Slow, Malo, Canni etc. while you keep regening HP.

The only evidence that would argue against my point is the guy talking about it being a downtime reducer in that you can go from OOM -> FM very fast with Canni/Torpor. Which is still true even with a mana drain, just less fast.

But in this researching we have discovered two other things:

1. Torpor should remove SoW or any runspeed buff.
2. Canni's are currently in post-update Efficiency, they should be in pre-update until April 2001 (4 months into Velious).

I'm fine with saying Torpor verdict is still out.

Currently as it stands there are a few quotes from caster's realm, everlore, cucumber's message board and SOE boards that mention the mana drain. Also the Caster's Realm+Everlore spell data lists the mana drain.

Whereas theres a quote mentioning the speed of Torpor+Canni in mid 2001, quote about using it on hard fights solo, and shaman boards don't list the drain in spell description.

I'd really like some post about when the drain was removed. I'm also unclear on the exact Regen/HoT stacking currently. Some stuff indicates that Torpor/Celestial will remove a regen like Regrowth. I'd need to look into that more and make a new thread.

[Nirgon]

Prima strategy guide for Kunark ain't got nothin on this. Although it is still a solid toilet reader.

[koros]

Prima strategy guide for Kunark ain't got nothin on this. Although it is still a solid toilet reader.

Nirgon, can you scrounge up one of those mid velious spdat.eff files you posted last year? the links stopped working.

[Nirgon]

4 u? K. Tonight.

[Nirgon]

http://www33.zippyshare.com/v/61067246/file.html

[Brocode]

seems its pretty accurate to the reality we have in server.

Actual Effects: Target: Regenerate Health (1200)
Target: Slow Attack Rate (30%)
Target: Snare
Target: Reduce Mana (50) mana drain?

http://web.archive.org/web/20010725174617/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1219

well you can see comments from the snaps made choosing a different date.

and once you reach limit of dates you can go to:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030817112515/http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=1219&Page=1

if you follow second link and click page 12 you can see the comments posts from 2001.

ps: i know its posted in a few pages before, but i was bored at work so.

[Daldaen]

I don't disagree that by 2003 the mana drain was removed. As evidence by lucy spell data. Another fun fact:

Posted: Thursday, August 30, 2001
it costs 200 mana, can cast on anybody, makes for insane mana regen with canabalize (60 shamans that arent stupid dont sit to get mana anymore) now stacks with rez effects after recent patch... it gets its own perm. spell slot just like cann/slow/malo.. if you read the last post...just ignore it hehe makes my head hurt

So by late 2001 it probably had no drain. But it didn't stack with Rez effects until then.

[Husalah]

When it includes spells that were introduced in Velious, it's a pretty safe bet it's not from mid-Kunark.

Do you honestly think they were printing expansion discs with builds that were already several months old? The last modified timestamps on the files don't lie.

I stand corrected.

I was merely stating that the builds printed on a CD are NOT going to be LIVE quality.
The point was that they weren't burning each new build onto a CD as it was passing internal testing and printed in the manufacturing plant.

I don't disagree that by 2003 the mana drain was removed. As evidence by lucy spell data. Another fun fact:



So by late 2001 it probably had no drain. But it didn't stack with Rez effects until then.

Why wouldn't it stack with Rez effects?

The regen component?

[Daldaen]

Believe the slow component. Rez decreases STR/WIS/INT and Slows you.

Classic spell stacking is weird. Some of those posts indicate that Torpor should drop any haste buffs you have on and they all seem to agree that it should remove SoW.

[Hailto]

Daldaen mad he plays a useless class, digging up shit that's irrelevant.

[Nirgon]

Think its just attack speed slow/movement slow tbh.

Not sure what its stacking history would be :P.

[Daldaen]

Daldaen mad he plays a useless class, digging up shit that's irrelevant.

Classic spell stacking is very important. Spell stacking was overhauled a few times. They added more "slots" to various effects which allowed you to stack the same effects together and let the best or worst take effect.

However in Classic there was no pick and choose, the best or worst effect would overwrite whatever else you had.

This was true of movement speed buffs I believe. All Runspeed buffs would be on the same line, and if you got a better one it would overwrite an inferior one. If you got snared or rooted you would lose your Runspeed buff. The exception to this, of course, was bards. Their selos was weird until the root/snare fix and then it was the same stacking as the others. However it didn't overwrite stuff like SoW. If you had SoW, selos wouldn't stick and vice versa.

Same deal with Torpor. Because it's deemed a snare by the game, it would remove your sow or cheetah. I suspect selos would stack with it until the snare/root fix as well.

I'm curious if slows/hastes are the same, as indicated by some of those posters. They say that Torpor removes your target's haste effects. It doesn't do that here. This needs more research.

[Erati]

^

Nothing was worse in classic than clicking off SOW to run with a bard

then losing the bard bc of classic connections and suddenly being at normal run speed :(

[Ele]

SPdat.eff from September 19, 2000 (Epic Weapons Patch) Obtained from here (https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.everquest.com.tw/download/*)

Torpor
Regeneration for 1200 Hit Points (HP) in 4 ticks
Decrease Attack Speed by 30% (L60)
Decrease Movement by 100% (L60)
Decrease Mana by 50 (L60)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: Shm (L60)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Alteration
Allowable Targets: All

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mana Required: 200
Spell Duration: 4 ticks (24 seconds)
Duration Formula: 10
Casting Time: 6.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell cast on you: You fall into a state of torpor.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso falls into a state of torpor.
Spell fades: Your state of torpor ends.


The mana component is missing from the November 16, 2000 and later spdat.eff patches.


Torpor
Regeneration for 1200 Hit Points (HP) in 4 ticks
Decrease Attack Speed by 30% (L60)
Decrease Movement by 100% (L60)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Classes: Shm (L60)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range to Target: 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skill: Alteration
Allowable Targets: All

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Resistance Check: None

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mana Required: 200
Spell Duration: 4 ticks (24 seconds)
Duration Formula: 10
Casting Time: 6.0 seconds
Spell Recovery: 2.50 seconds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spell cast on you: You fall into a state of torpor.
Spell cast on someone: Soandso falls into a state of torpor.
Spell fades: Your state of torpor ends.

[evilkorn]

Glad we are past that in the timeline, but it's good to know for future progression servers they may plan.

[Daldaen]

November 16, 2000 (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20001116.html)

The spell Torpor received an unintentional reduction in effectiveness.

The timeline here doesn't make sense to me.

September 2000 - Torpor has Reduce Mana (50) -- (Is this per tick or just once?)
November 11 2000 - Torpor no longer has the Reduced Mana
November 16 2000 - Torpor received an unintentional reduction in effectiveness

If it had the mana drain removed, it would've been an improvement not a reduction in effectiveness?

[Ele]

November 16, 2000 (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20001116.html)



The timeline here doesn't make sense to me.

September 2000 - Torpor has Reduce Mana (50) -- (Is this per tick or just once?)
November 11 2000 - Torpor no longer has the Reduced Mana
November 16 2000 - Torpor received an unintentional reduction in effectiveness

If it had the mana drain removed, it would've been an improvement not a reduction in effectiveness?

Sorry Nov. 11th was a typo meant 16th. Directly comparing the Nov. 15 and Nov. 16 spdat.eff files shows the removal of the mana reduction component. And it should be per tick.

http://i.imgur.com/fki4vYCh.png

[Erati]

I smell classholes up in here

[maskedmelon]

The November 16 patch notes reference the previous day's patch, so presumably a nerf hit Torpor on November 15 and was then corrected on the 16th.

Regardless, we now know that until September 23rd (November 11, provided no patches occurred in between) Torpor had the drain component. That places the drain removal 4 weeks prior to Velious release.

Bring out the nerf bat!

[evilkorn]

The unintentional reduction in effectiveness refers to them not wanting it to drain mana. That patch fixed it.

Bring out the nerf bat!

We are to the point just before velious release as far as patch timeline goes. Thus these findings do nothing to change the current state of the server.

[Daldaen]

Evikorn is correct, we are past that point. But for almost all of Kunark, it should have its drain.

[maskedmelon]

Not quite ( unless I missed a launch date notice?) Rogean has indicated that we'd have a minimum 6 week notice before launch. So we have at the very least 2 weeks for this nerf assuming we receive launch notice today, probably more.

I say nerd it now and leave in place until Velious launch as penance for our oversight ^^ ... or at least until 4 weeks before launch.

[Velerin]

The mana drain would kind of fit in line with the frenzy line of shaman spells. Gain in melee at expense of mana. It would still be a powerful heal for others. Always thought it was strange shammies (with notoriously high mana cost spells) got a heal that was more efficient than clerics celestial heal.

[Erati]

Torpor sucks, wipe it clean

( so I can buy a cheap copy )

[evilkorn]

masked, you're missing the point, I'll try to explain it further. The server, for all intents and purposes, has every change and fix up to the point of Velious launch. The time between now and when Velious is released to the server for us is the equivalent to the smallest amount of time up until Velious was released in the past.

[maskedmelon]

I get what you are saying Korn. I am just saying without an official launch date we could still be months away and the fix appears to be one of the last changes before launch ^^ I am disinclined to believe though that the devs would bother pushing an spdat update for an unpopular nerf for such a short time when it was never originally intended ^^

Still though... classic! ^^

[Daldaen]

Bumping this back up. This is an important fix to balance out shamans come Kunark.

Specifically its the runspeed stacking issue that needs to be focused on. Torpor should overwrite all runspeed buffs and block all runspeed buffs.

[Bamsham]

I played a lvl 60 shaman in early Kunark back in the day. I was in a raiding guld and was lucky enough to get an early copy of Torpor.

Its been 20 years but from what I remember the 200 mana cost is most likely correct, but it would also drain all your remaining mana.(for the caster). Meaning you needed 200 mana to be able to cast it, but it would cost all your mana you had left.

It didnt make any sense actually giving shamans such a hugely powerful heal, considering shamans and druids had had the same level of heals up to that point.

Therefor I believe Torpor was first meant as a situational last ditch full heal, that they later changed due to its potential making it so popular to shamans they removed the mana-drain.

[Gustoo]

So if this was updated, torpor would be limp for some of kunark and made the same mega power spell it is now, sometime close to velious?

[Dolalin]

I have full spdats from Kunark release into Velious, I'll check Torpor.

The EQCaster exports of them are here if anyone else wants to have a look. It's in excel format

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/blob/master/spdat/Historical%20SPDAT%20Data.xlsx

[Gustoo]

Dolalin is the best.

[Dolalin]

All questions become easy to answer when you have access to the right data :)

Torpor didn't get its mana debuff until the April 12, 2000 patch. It then had the mana drain until the Nov 17th, 2000 patch.

[Danth]

Those spelldata files have been floating around for years. When I've brought it up in the past I've been told it was on Test server but never actually patched to EQ-Live. Is there confirmation it made it into the regular game?

Danth

[Dolalin]

Those spelldata files have been floating around for years. When I've brought it up in the past I've been told it was on Test server but never actually patched to EQ-Live. Is there confirmation it made it into the regular game?

Danth

The patches these spdats were bundled with had live eqnews.txt files, not test ones. Presumption would be that they were from live patches.

[DMN]

So they just noped right out of having a check on the most absurdly overpowered spell in the entire classic timeline, even releasing the more stupidly overpowered one for only 100 mana?
BNut make sure them keys aren't soulbound. /sigh

[Penish]

Changes never went live, why are people lobbying for this shit? Or is it just a case of looking at something for so fucking long you keep finding flaws in it? lol

[Dolalin]

Changes never went live

That's a very interesting hypothesis. Tell me why the patch files have live eqnews.txt's and why they line up with Live patch dates/events then?

Daldaen drew my attention to a patch note given in November 2000 which says "The spell Torpor received an unintentional reduction in effectiveness.". Coincidentally, that's the last month that Torpor has the mana drain in the spdats. So I sort of think it's not a coincidence.

I think the EQ devs 'unintentionally' let a Test change (Torpor mana drain) leak into Live for a few months before anybody noticed it. But does seem to have been live for most of Kunark. So P99 should implement that if it wants to be faithful, I would think.

[Penish]

Think, sort of think, think. Cool story. lol (still this never went live)

[Dolalin]

I've decompressed all the patch .zip files on www.everquest.com.tw and their eqnews.txt files are there to view:

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/tree/master/eq-patches

So if you want to blow holes in my theory please install the EQCaster.exe given there, and do so. You'll have to answer these questions though:

1) Why are there Live eqnews.txt files in these zips if they're supposedly Test server patches?

2) Why do the patch dates line up perfectly with Live patches?

3) Why does the 15/11/2000 spdat.eff (and all previous ones back to April, 2000) have the Torpor mana drain, but the 16/11/2000 spdat.eff doesn't?

4) Why does the 16/11/2000 patch say that 'Torpor received an unintentional reduction in effectiveness', and the Mana Drain is removed?

Let me know what you come up with.

Here's the Patch Notes page for reference (I've curated most of this):

https://wiki.project1999.com/Patch_Notes

[Nirgon]

I don't ever remember the torpor soloing I see here done in era even through Velious. I didn't play a shaman though so I left this alone. Interesting reads. Whatever is classic, do that.

[Danth]

I don't ever remember the torpor soloing I see here done in era even through Velious. I didn't play a shaman though so I left this alone. Interesting reads. Whatever is classic, do that.

That type of solo'ing was definitely happening in Velious, folks did talk about solo'ing the West Wastes dragons/etc in-era. Can't speak for Kunark though, I didn't have a Shaman back then either. All I know is what others have told me; when I've brought this up in the past on these boards I've always been told it was something that was tried on Test and never made it live. Maybe it did for awhile?

Danth

[Dolalin]

Found a post referring to 'nerfed Torpor' as of May 2000 on Castersrealm:

http://web.archive.org/web/20000619120811/forums.castersrealm.com/eq/Forum12/HTML/001414.html

[Dolalin]

Another post on the EQ message boards, October 30th and November 11th 2000 (before either of those patches):

The main problem w the shaman spells post 50 is because we learned to make PoS utility spells into major freeking battle tactics spells. Now they are so damn afraid that we will own the game like necros and enchanters already do they nerfed all of our spells before we even got then, especially the dog and topor!

BTW, Where the hell is our damage upgrade at 53? Is that supposed to be our bracer? so we are now warriors that have to count on our equipment for our best spells? The utility spells have to have UTILITY! Recode spirit of scale and make it a group SoW! We got it first, we should have a group spell of it!DUH! UN-Nerf topor, it is uncastable as is, and is less effective than regular heals, what was the point then? Get rid of group charisma and make it AoE maloisi! Give some utility back to this utility class JEEZ!

4. Torpor: Egads, this has be discussed enough, why did you mutilate one of our best spells. (Awefully Nerfed )

http://web.archive.org/web/20001208070000/boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/024844-4.html

[Dolalin]

Found one on the newsgroups, May 2000:


5/3/2000

Torpor is nice at 60, but only useful on warriors/monks/rogues...the -200
mana it sticks on the target makes it worthless for anyone else.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.games.everquest/c/98xbrPzQqYI/m/sNcLieNA5hIJ

[Baler]

Looking at the patch notes on the wiki mentioning,
I think some of it was an unintentional bug based on the wording.

November 16, 2000 (https://wiki.project1999.com/Patch_notes#November_16.2C_2000)
Today's follow-up patch addresses the following issues from yesterday's patch
* The spell Torpor received an unintentional reduction in effectiveness.

January 17, 2001 (https://wiki.project1999.com/Patch_notes#Bug_Fixes_2)
* Last week's patch attempted to fix Celestial Elixir, Celestial Healing, and Torpor, so that they would stack another similar spell, unintentionally causing it to stop stacking with standard regeneration spells. This has been fixed. The downside to this fix is that these spells will now overwrite the "Call of Bones" series. As the three former spells are cast to save a character's life, this solution appears to be the most beneficial for all of those involved.

February 21, 2001 (https://wiki.project1999.com/Patch_notes#Spell_and_Skill_Changes)
*Created a new spell effect for Celestial Healing, Celestial Elixir, and Torpor. This will allow them to stack with all other spells, save spells of the same type (Heal over time). Prior to this, all heal-over- time spells followed the same rules as regeneration spells.

August 15, 2001 (https://wiki.project1999.com/Patch_notes#August_15.2C_2001_3:00_am)
Some stacking issues with Torpor have been corrected.

I don't ever remember the torpor soloing I see here done in era even through Velious. I didn't play a shaman though so I left this alone. Interesting reads. Whatever is classic, do that.

There were far less people playing shaman back in the day. It was viewed as a weak or strange class. It's hard for many who have played P99 to look back and remember this.

[DMN]

Looking at the patch notes on the wiki mentioning,
I think some of it was an unintentional bug based on the wording.

These aren't even talking about -mana per tick so not sure the relevance.


There were far less people playing shaman back in the day. It was viewed as a weak or strange class. It's hard for many who have played P99 to look back and remember this.


Indeed. it's actually kind of funny enchanters/bards/shaman all had extremely low populations through most of the classic time period.

[Baler]

These aren't even talking about -mana per tick so not sure the relevance.

I understand but it seems strange that torpor has gone through several bugs revisions.
Unless I missed proof that the mana part was an intentional design choice by the original developers.

Or maybe we just missed it this go-around on green. Burnout use to remove/reduce pet regen and that never made it on green for the range of months it took place on live.

[Dolalin]

I have the patch zips from both the Nov15 patch and the Nov16 patch, along with both spdats. When you diff Torpor the only difference is that they removed the mana drain component.

Seems really cut and dried to me.

Nov15 patch unzipped:

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/tree/master/eq-patches/EQ_Patch_20001115

Nov16 patch unzipped:

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/tree/master/eq-patches/EQ_Patch_20001116

Spdats and EQCaster (I put these in their own folder for convenience, file dates are 1 day later I guess from the guy making the zips the next day, or because Taiwan is across the date line):

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/tree/master/spdat

Check for yourself :)

[Dolalin]

Visualised in Excel

[Dolalin]

Okay found a smoking gun on Everlore with a Gordon quote from November 15th 2000, the day of patch #1:


Even more evening posts from Gordon
Catalyst [11/15/2000-6:32:42 PM]

Yet another shaman nerf!!

Word from test is that VI has nerfed Torpor even more. For those of you that dont know this spell it is one of our level 60 spells and is a healing/regen type spell... in 24 seconds it does 1200 points heal BUT it slows the targets attack rate by 30%, roots them, and takes away 50 mana from target. It costs 200 mana to cast. Now it cant be cast on any class that doesnt have mana and it cant be cast on pets.

Some of this sounds unintentional. Let me corner some people today and see what the deal is.

Can you give a quick explanation in how it differs from what it was doing as well? Thanks.

-Gordon

https://web.archive.org/web/20001117134200/www.everlore.com/default.asp


The thread on the EQ forums wasn't saved by Wayback but I think this is enough.

The mana drain introduced in April was unintentional. It was only caught because Gordon happened to read a comment by a guy who flagged up yet another restriction added on Test, that it couldn't be cast on targets without mana pools.

Verant reviewed the change and reverted the new Torpor restrictions on Test, and also undid the Mana Drain component they'd introduced back in April.

Mystery solved.

[Baler]

I concede, torpor is actually a Curse spell and not a healing spell.
Even the definition preludes to this context:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torpor

[Sabin76]

The mana drain may not have been unintentional in and of itself. It rather sounds like the consequences of that drain (i.e. not being able to cast it on classes without mana or pets) was the unintentional part. And rather than try to code in exceptions, it was probably far easier to simply get rid of the mana drain component.

[Dolalin]

That could be true.

[DMN]

The idea of someone unintentionally coding in a novel mana reduction on a per tick basis into a spell seems incredibly unlikely. But Verant's patch messages were notoriousy unreliable/vague.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The idea of someone unintentionally coding in a novel mana reduction on a per tick basis into a spell seems incredibly unlikely. But Verant's patch messages were notoriousy unreliable/vague.

I wouldn't think about software development as having "unintentional coding". What probably happened was the programming team was tasked with creating the mana drain feature on spells. But after it was coded and implemented, the game designers, qa testers. etc. discovered that the mana drain feature wasn't a good idea for any of the spells that were being released for the expansion they were currently working on.

Instead of deleting the feature (which can be dangerous in a live codebase, and it could be used later on), they decided to just disable the feature on all of the spells that had it. But they forgot to disable it, and so a bug was created, because the spell had mana drain when it shouldn't.

[DMN]

I wouldn't think about software development as having "unintentional coding". What probably happened was the programming team was tasked with creating the mana drain feature on spells. But after it was coded and implemented, the game designers, qa testers. etc. discovered that the mana drain feature wasn't a good idea for any of the spells that were being released for the expansion they were currently working on.

Instead of deleting the feature (which can be dangerous in a live codebase, and it could be used later on), they decided to just disable the feature on all of the spells that had it. But they forgot to disable it, and so a bug was created, because the spell had mana drain when it shouldn't.

Maybe if the mana drain component of the spell had been there day one of kunark's release, but there was a decent bit of time before the spell received the nerf. I'd imagine 99% of shaman never saw the un-nerfed version of the spell in those days, which is also why it's sad to see this not being reflected on green since it'sa a grotesque distortion of what the situation really was for a level 60 shaman.

i suspect if it truly was unintentional, that what happened was they were monkeying around with ways to make it more balanced. Keep in mind the original cost only 100 mana. They could have finally decided that simply doubling the mana cost was enough of a nerf for balance's sake but actually left the mana drain portion in too essentially double nerfing it.

[Nirgon]

It has the movement and melee snare for physical dealers and a mana drain component for casters and hybrids.

We've seen "drain others mana too" with th evacs so it's not entirely unique.

Rather than a huge cost for the spell, it drains from the target. Makes sense given the cost.

[Keebz]

What probably happened was the programming team was tasked with creating the mana drain feature on spells. But after it was coded and implemented, the game designers, qa testers. etc. discovered that the mana drain feature wasn't a good idea for any of the spells that were being released for the expansion they were currently working on.


This or something like it is extremely plausible. I'm imagining this was a change for test that accidentally got promoted to production, likely lumped in with a bunch of other changes.

This happens in modern software all the time and who knows what version control and deployment system they were using way back when.

[Jimjam]

It has the movement and melee snare for physical dealers and a mana drain component for casters and hybrids.

We've seen "drain others mana too" with th evacs so it's not entirely unique.

Rather than a huge cost for the spell, it drains from the target. Makes sense given the cost.

Shamans had another spell that drained mana too at some point, one of their self only ‘melee mode’ ones.