sneak pull

[alsa]

Sneak pull should only work when the range attack "MISS". after patch even if range attack hit the mob, it no longer break sneak. Means sneak pull is easy mode now.

[baalzy]

09-25-2000

4) Using Thrown Weapons and Sneak to split.

With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.


Velious release date:
December, 2000.

[alsa]

And that post said anything about damage break sneak?

[Wrench]

although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the othe

just walk away

[Haynar]

Sneak pull should only work when the range attack "MISS". after patch even if range attack hit the mob, it no longer break sneak. Means sneak pull is easy mode now.
Almost. Sneak is still working on the back 180 degrees which is coded wrong. Have that fix working too. Just not patched.

Working as intended.

H

[Daldaen]

Thread resurrect:

The quote listed by Baalzy above is from this website:

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8889

Definitely was posted in September 2000. But there is information left out:

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub35.ezboard.com/uautumndawnfire.showPublicProfile?language=EN>Autu mn Dawnfire</A>* at: 6/23/02 6:47:46 am

Let's also reexamine that quote:

With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.

May 2002 Patch Notes (http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020508.html)

Sneak only breaks when a character is hit, not when he hits someone.

Luclin release date December 2001

Discuss.

[Vega]

Seems like patch notes could be implying melee damage, not just ranged.

[Daldaen]

Monkly Business June 2002 (1month post Sneak change) (http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8889&page=2)

okay ijusth, with sneak + thrown weapon pulling, there is no need to FD, like at all. It's a huge time saver, as you aren't waiting on FD to recycle for the split, basically you reduce the range at which mobs will respond you're attack on the one you're tagging, it does not completely eliminate it, you're level will effect the agro range ( as always ), but it will get reduced by use of sneak.



It used to be that using a thrown weapon broke sneak, and you have to rehit it really fast to get this method to work ( so you needed to be sneaking again by the time the weapon actually connected meaning you needed a weapon with a pretty good range ). With the changes so that throwing doesn't break sneak, that is no longer the case, makes this a LOT eaiser to use, even with reltively short range weaopns like a shattering hammer or normal throwing stars.

A few things from this.

Yes, Ranged did break sneak before the Luclin patch.
Sneak should function like a Lull (where it REDUCES range, not completely eliminates... doesn't do that currently here).

Sneak should be useful for pulling but it should not be a /easybutton that allows you to single a mob from a pack of 10. There needs to be *some* distance between the mobs and they need to have their backs to you.

You should also have to time your throwing -> sneaking -> throwing item landing correctly. We could also use a timed throwing item fix while we are at it.

[Nirgon]

Monkly Business June 2002 (1month post Sneak change) (http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8889&page=2)



A few things from this.

Yes, Ranged did break sneak before the Luclin patch.
Sneak should function like a Lull (where it REDUCES range, not completely eliminates... doesn't do that currently here).

Sneak should be useful for pulling but it should not be a /easybutton that allows you to single a mob from a pack of 10. There needs to be *some* distance between the mobs and they need to have their backs to you.

You should also have to time your throwing -> sneaking -> throwing item landing correctly. We could also use a timed throwing item fix while we are at it.

pras

[Raev]

That's a great find Daldaen. When I talk to people like Cobblestone who monked on live they assure me they did not use sneak. The new 270 degree sneak radius has really trivialized splitting in my opinion: Rogues can split most camps in Sebilis, and raid monking is pretty trivial: generate huge train, sneak pull, profit. So it sounds like attacking breaking sneak + short pause while throwing + Haynar's increased blur chance on multiple feigns is going to make this shit a lot more classic.

Here are some other posts from that thread that back you up:

I saw mention on a rogue board that if you attack with a thrown weapon, and press sneak before it hits, then you can split a spawn.

Sneak pulling is essentially a myth. It was thought for a while that you could use a range weapon (bow, shurikan, whatever) in conjunction with sneak to pull one mob from a social group. This does not work. Sometimes only one will come, but that happens if sneak is used or not. Rangers used to believe that high archery skill was the cause

It's called lag

When you attack, even with a range weapon, the sneak effect is broken. ID works differently, because if you fail the skill you never attack and sneak is not broken.

Take a peak out and see the positioning of all the Minos. There is 1 mino that is just near the mino elder pit. He was always my first victim. I walk up slowly! into his aggro range seeing as he faces the direction of my pull spot. Before I even get to melee range he will move to atack you as you enter his SMALLER (due to sneak) aggro range. At this point BACK UP ASAP into your pull spot. Once he hits you he will break your sneak but you will most likely be out of aggro range of other minos by then. If your fast enough you will only get that 1 mino.

In other words sneak pulls work 100% when you don't attack.

I did finally get around to trying out the sneak ranged pulling stuff, once i got the range 100 summonable shruiken, it does work... kinda.

As we know 100 range is not enough for this.

okay ijusth, with sneak + thrown weapon pulling, there is no need to FD, like at all. It's a huge time saver, as you aren't waiting on FD to recycle for the split, basically you reduce the range at which mobs will respond you're attack on the one you're tagging, it does not completely eliminate it, you're level will effect the agro range ( as always ), but it will get reduced by use of sneak.

It used to be that using a thrown weapon broke sneak, and you have to rehit it really fast to get this method to work ( so you needed to be sneaking again by the time the weapon actually connected meaning you needed a weapon with a pretty good range ). With the changes so that throwing doesn't break sneak, that is no longer the case, makes this a LOT eaiser to use, even with reltively short range weaopns like a shattering hammer or normal throwing stars.

Verdict: +1 Classic Points for Daldaen

[Raev]

So from a difficulty standpoint,

You have to be on the ball and press sneak really quickly
Sneak does not always work, which means occasionally rogues get to die (5%?) and monks will have to FD about 1/3 of the time
Sneak aggro radius should not be zero, so occasionally you should get more than 1 if the mobs are close. If you have a huge train, you should definitely get more than one.


That sounds fairly awesome.

[Nirgon]

Classic EQ requiring skill confirmed.

Pretty cited 4 this, probably in next patch after this one?

8)

[Haynar]

So let me get this right.

Attacking should break sneak. Including range attack.

There should be a delay for the hit.

So drop sneak. Ranged attack. Hit sneak before ranged hits. If good sneak, bingo. Otherwise die for rogue. Or FD for monk trying it.

We currently have easy mode sneak pulling, which isnt classic?

H

[Nirgon]

If the range attacks scores damage, break sneak. If it misses, do not break sneak but grab mob.

Lull style range agro on pulled mob. Thus the need to "split" the mobs at least enough. Vindi pulls are a "classic" (pun intended) example of l2p for monks.

[Raev]

It used to be that using a thrown weapon broke sneak, and you have to rehit it really fast to get this method to work ( so you needed to be sneaking again by the time the weapon actually connected meaning you needed a weapon with a pretty good range )

It seems any attack should break sneak, but if you are very quick you can resneak before the ranged weapon lands (right now ranged weapons land instantly I believe).

If you are sneaking, mobs should still assist aggro even if you are behind them if they are close enough to the targeted mob, i.e. it should function like a lull style spell on the others. If you calm a mob and run close enough it will still engage. The question is how much to reduce the aggro radius.

[Buellen]

Hello

Not sure if sneak has been changed here on p1999 since i tested this on a monk i was leveling in swamp of no hope late 2013.


EDIT: here is link to my testing of sneak pulling post : http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129821


All the mobs from the group you are pulling must be facing away from you so you are in their back arc. sneak did drop on throwing or firing an arrow (tested with a ranger friend).

as long as the mob are in the above said position. you will pull single mob every time. IF you are not in the back arc of any one mob in the group you are puling from you will agro not only the target you shot at but also the mob that WAS NOT in the back arc. This will generally cause the rest of the group to come also.

-----

The problem on p1999 when it comes to having to hit sneak again before your shot hits come is that THEIR IS NO FLIGHT TIME FOR thrown or missile weapons. so even if you hit sneak again after the shot at that point the mobs will have you on their agro list and come tear you a new one.

[Nirgon]

Ya I'd 100% leave it alone until flight time is added to range. Forgot bout dat. Thought I threw a boulder or two with flight time here...

[Haynar]

Ya I'd 100% leave it alone until flight time is added to range. Forgot bout dat. Thought I threw a boulder or two with flight time here...
I got base framework done for flight time. Guess i need to revisit.

H

[Daldaen]

Ranged item flight time definitely needs implemented for the breaking of sneak to be worked in.

But the lull mechanic is something I'm very interested in. Cause right now it completely removed assist range. It should just reduce the range, not remove entirely.

I'll try to find some specific camps that they talk about this being useful for and we can use as a base level of reduction.

[Vega]

Seems like patch notes could be implying melee damage, not just ranged.

Oops, it seems I didn't read Daldaen's post well enough. Although, I'm going to use the excuse that I got confused by the html in the quote :P

Also, Haynar, if you're going to add back in ranged flight time, can you add in wizard bolt flight time? This is useful for Ragefire bracer pulling:

Blazing Bracer of Fennin Ro is the best pulling tool for wars in the game imo, with line of sight zones too you can single pull, just nuke - then run behind a pillar or wall and wait for it to hit (bolt effect) then you've got yourself a single pull. (atleast most of the time)
http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showpost.php?p=106414&postcount=9


Also, I'm not sure about this post that Raev brought up:

Take a peak out and see the positioning of all the Minos. There is 1 mino that is just near the mino elder pit. He was always my first victim. I walk up slowly! into his aggro range seeing as he faces the direction of my pull spot. Before I even get to melee range he will move to atack you as you enter his SMALLER (due to sneak) aggro range. At this point BACK UP ASAP into your pull spot. Once he hits you he will break your sneak but you will most likely be out of aggro range of other minos by then. If your fast enough you will only get that 1 mino.

This post not only implies it lowers aggro range for assist, but that it lowers it for consideration. I don't think that's true, or you never would have been able to vendor or turn in quests as indiff while sneaking. My guess is this guy might have lagged and the server thought he was infront of the mob. Is there other proof for it working like a lull? Maybe I missed it.

[Daldaen]

From that very same thread:

October 2000:

Its main use appears to be when there are mobs that are Agro, close, but *NOT* social. If you can sneak in and nail one with a shuriken or get yourself inside the vision sector of one but not the others, then sneak back FAST out of the agro range of the second before you're hit and sneak is blown, you can pull just one of them fast and easy rather than the time and hassle of a feign pull. Of course this is easier for rangers, rogues as they have nice long range bows to use for this, but then if it messes up they can't just FD, so I know what I prefer!



Its claimed that sneak can be used as a minor harmony effect on *SOCIAL* mobs to reduce their add radius, but personally I haven't had much success with this at all. By far the best way to pull these is harmony if outside of course, or fd/chain, or the best way "be high enough level to only get one of them" <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif ALT=":)"> .

[Vega]

Doesn't that first paragraph imply sneak didn't break on a throw and hit? I guess it's possible he's saying you have to re-hit the sneak button, but if so he worded it wrong.

[Daldaen]

Likely worded wrong since there are many posts that it broke sneak as I and Raev linked in era.

[Erati]

lore wise, it makes sense for the game to break your sneak when you throw something

it doesnt make any logistical sense remaining hidden after you successfully hit something with a throwing weapon as your cover is blown now. Pressing the sneak button a second time was how the players 'figured' it out to get the desired results.

I guess it was later changed as the game got harder in other areas, so pulling became easier?

[Thulack]

lore wise, it makes sense for the game to break your sneak when you throw something

it doesnt make sense any logistically remaining hidden after you successfully hit something with a throwing weapon as your cover is blown now if you think about it.

I guess it was later changed as the game got harder in other areas, so pulling became easier?


More classes got way to split mobs easier later on in EQ.

[Buellen]

In swamp of no hope tests

My max distance was 60 same as shureken.

Had sneak activated before throwing

I would throw and start to walk backward mob i targeted would turn and start to come after me and would break my sneak, i cannot prove it at time but i swear the mob here on p1999 hit from farther out. that is when the sneak would break.

Usually that would still guarantee me a single pull (IF i was in the back arc of all the mobs etc)

if i was closer than 60 range(but outside agro) the mob would turn and and be within range to hit me breaking my sneak and thus i would agro the rest of the group.

Hope this helps

[Raev]

This post not only implies it lowers aggro range for assist, but that it lowers it for consideration. I don't think that's true, or you never would have been able to vendor or turn in quests as indiff while sneaking. My guess is this guy might have lagged and the server thought he was infront of the mob. Is there other proof for it working like a lull? Maybe I missed it.

Basically this guy is sneak pulling some mobs by face aggroing them. This works for him (and everyone agrees it is a standard tactic) because he is not using ranged attack, so sneak does not break.

I am not so sure about the lull aspect myself; the only evidence we have there is Autumn, although from a balance perspective it would be great if the assist range was not 0.

From the same monk thread:

Best use for this I've found: this makes us into chain-pulling gods. Let a monk pull whatever he wants up into a nice tidy FD pile a good distance from the group, target the one you want, bring it to the group. Monk just stands up and re-FDs to keep the pile there while you whittle them down one by one until only casters are left.

This is from 2002 but quoting a Safehouse thread from the Kunark era.

[Daldaen]

While we are on the topic of flight times of ranged items... It should also be mentioned that often times ranged items when fired would get lost in geometry and not even attempt to connect with the target (which would result in no agro).

This was most prevalent in areas where mobs are close to walls. Specifically when mobs are being corner tanked, Rangers could not land arrows on these mobs even if they were a large sized mob. The arrows would simply poof and never connect on a hit because the mob was in a corner.

[Daldaen]

I got base framework done for flight time. Guess i need to revisit.

H

Bumpbumpbump.

Dunno how busy you have been but have you made progress on this? Would love to see classic flight times on thrown weapons and classic pulling taking skill, not being a /faceroll jav/sneak fest that it is currently.

Come Velious especially, skilled pulling teams will be very necessary for certain fights. Seeing them trivialized by sneak pulls would be sad.

[kaev]

To get the full classic flight time effect you've got to actually do collision with the missiles vs. mobs moving into the path while it's in-flight. That is, if any mob moves into the path of the missile it should "attack" (agro) that mob rather than the target. For example, shooting an arrow at the orc you see on the other side of a lift in GFay just before Captain Somename walked through the flight path of the arrow got more than one character ganked back in the good old days. Also, IIRC collision with a player character standing or moving in the flightpath of the missile would prevent it from hitting anything, similar to missiles disappearing into geometry (including large treetrunks), but good luck finding anything posted mentioning that bit of arcana.

See the text baalzy quotes in the second post of the thread for an in era mention of hitting a mob other than the one targetted.

[Buellen]

Heya Kaev

Yep this is also the way i remember it from live and eqmac.

It was possible to bow shot a mob that was hitting you so long as you shot at something farther out than mob that where meleeing you, and it was far enough way to not trigger bow min distance. Of course the new target had to be in the direction of the mob that was beating on you.

[Raev]

To get the full classic flight time effect you've got to actually do collision with the missiles vs. mobs moving into the path while it's in-flight. That is, if any mob moves into the path of the missile it should "attack" (agro) that mob rather than the target.

This is extremely interesting, because PCs would not be able to sneak pull one mob out of a huge train like they do now (of course, its still going to be possible to mallet one mob out of a huge train, but only if you have space to continue the train).

When I was talking to Daldaen he said that he was looking at old screenshots and high end monks didn't even have sneak memmed for splitting in ToV. Even with correct mechanics I think that would be a huge mistake, but there is no way our current "train out and then sneak tag the target out of a train of 500" is classic.

[Daldaen]

http://i.imgur.com/Z7ySsir.png

(Does show he used sneak briefly in chatbox)

http://i.imgur.com/uga1X9k.png

http://i.imgur.com/6IfHk8N.png

http://i.imgur.com/Potu6UH.png

THIS is what he uses Sneak for:

http://i.imgur.com/KZjTQjh.png


So pulling NToV, Trak, VP... don't have sneak on main hotkey bar. Swaps in to get really close to Klandicar for a screenshot.

[Raev]

Is this our very own Caleros?

Also, in VP the lava does huge amounts of damage, like 100+. This screenshot has it doing 10.

[Daldaen]

Is this our very own Caleros?

Also, in VP the lava does huge amounts of damage, like 100+. This screenshot has it doing 10.

Lava should be scaled based off your Heat (fire) resist. Shame we can't see his resists.

The scaling may be wrong though...

[Erati]

yea he has a fire resist buff in that screenshot where hes getting burned

probably has Classic Circle of Winter which actually provides additional fire resist than Resist Fire

[Daldaen]

Slight derail

EQClerics 2000 (http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1755&highlight=Lava+resist)

With my Fire Resistance at around 160 I can swim in lava and only take 10 damage per tick. Helps a lot sometimes.

Saw another post that was around 140 as well.

I'd think anything above 100-150 should min lava damage to 10 a tick. And no lava should be more dangerous than that.

[Erati]

but Dald remember that 100-150 is under the classic resist table with 255 max

not our 500 max

[Nirgon]

Mashing that sneak to be sure of indifferent gr8 evidence shot

[Daldaen]

but Dald remember that 100-150 is under the classic resist table with 255 max

not our 500 max

Yea I agree. And that's probably the issue. But I hear 255 cap is coming.... So much great classicness $$$$.

[Raev]

Normal lava does like 30ish even with low FR. The VP lava is somehow special and does a lot more, and according to that screenshot it should not.

[Raev]

byrjun trying to steal my bugfinding glory np

[Daldaen]

Bump.

The final Classic Patch in 2014 got some great fixes.

Getting Sneak + Flight times on throwing items fixed to claasic status would be fantastic. Make the pulling game way more interesting than send in 1 rabbit to aggro or DA tank everything then Sneak tag out of the cluster of mobs single.

Pulling shouldn't be a single skill + 1 thrown item being a single pull every time. That's dumb and not classic.

Let's bring back skillful pulling.

[Daldaen]

Bump. Let's get sneak functioning classicly. It's far too Easymode right now.

A necro can go in DA, bundle up a room, then get them to all face their back to a monk who is sneaking. A single thrown item will single pull the mob out of this pack. That is incorrect. And extremely broken.

[Erati]

Bump. Let's get sneak functioning classicly. It's far too Easymode right now.

A necro can go in DA, bundle up a room, then get them to all face their back to a monk who is sneaking. A single thrown item will single pull the mob out of this pack. That is incorrect. And extremely broken.

what is suppose to happen when the monk attempts to pull one out?

would it be possible to get a video uploaded from live with a re-creation?

[Pint]

Seems like the bigger issue is sneak resulting in 100% blur atm making all pulls ridiculously trivial, nobody seems to want to report that one yet though

[Erati]

Seems like the bigger issue is sneak resulting in 100% blur atm making all pulls ridiculously trivial, nobody seems to want to report that one yet though

I think that is mostly what Dald is getting at

Is there suppose to be any blur what so ever when you tag mobs standing next to each other albiet with their backs to you having sneak on?

[Daldaen]

There is no blur.

The issue to three fold.

#1 - Sneak isn't being broken by hitting with a throwing weapon like it should.
#2 - Projectiles don't have flight times. When sneak pulling you should have to throw an item and while its in the air hit sneak. And guess what, monks don't successfully sneak every time. Nor do Rogues. So a good chunk of those times, when the throwing item lands you failed your sneak and it will be as if you just threw the item without sneak.
#3 - Sneak should behave like a lull. Mobs who have their backs to you should have a much reduced assist radius. However it should make them totally inert. If you sneak tag a mob and it runs right on top of its friend who has it's back to you, it should still aggro.

[Pint]

I think that is mostly what Dald is getting at

Is there suppose to be any blur what so ever when you tag mobs standing next to each other albiet with their backs to you having sneak on?

dald's issue is that when you hit something with a projectile it should break your sneak

[Pint]

There is no blur.

fd > sneak > stand > drop sneak > 100% blur

[Daldaen]

Ohh, I thought you were saying it would blur mobs when you tagged with sneak.

[Kender]

fd > sneak > stand > drop sneak > 100% blur

they patched it so that they retain memory now so that may not work. if your FD doesnt blur (see below) they will still remember you and if you drop sneak before the mob resets you will be chased again

they changed fd blur mechanics so that when you FD you might get a blur, with each subsequent FD increasing the chance of a blur.

[Pint]

Y'all should play around with the new mechanics if you have monks, it is way too strong and very broken imo

[Kender]

Y'all should play around with the new mechanics if you have monks, it is way too strong and very broken imo

I havn't really played my monk since the new mechanics, but i suspect it might be around how easy it is to get a blur?

[Man0warr]

Classic mechanic. Just not all monks/rogues knew about it. Was discussed on both Safehouse and Monkly Business forums as early as 2000/2001 though.

[Man0warr]

It's not 100% mem blur - if you drop your sneak after pulling or get hit before the rest of the mobs get back to their spawn points there is a good chance they will re-aggro you.

[Haynar]

Will give adding ranged weapon delays a shot in next day or so. Gotta take some data for flight time to see what I am looking for. Since its same part of code for bolts, might do some collision work too.

H

[Daldaen]

Will give adding ranged weapon delays a shot in next day or so. Gotta take some data for flight time to see what I am looking for. Since its same part of code for bolts, might do some collision work too.

H

Loving this.

[Raev]

Will give adding ranged weapon delays a shot in next day or so. Gotta take some data for flight time to see what I am looking for. Since its same part of code for bolts, might do some collision work too.

H

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5uoxtMYFD3RB5S6uJoCQ-2Zbt-WkxQcST8EDyDpMBuc2jV_zYmg

[Cecily]

There is no blur.

The issue to three fold.

#1 - Sneak isn't being broken by hitting with a throwing weapon like it should.
#2 - Projectiles don't have flight times. When sneak pulling you should have to throw an item and while its in the air hit sneak. And guess what, monks don't successfully sneak every time. Nor do Rogues. So a good chunk of those times, when the throwing item lands you failed your sneak and it will be as if you just threw the item without sneak.
#3 - Sneak should behave like a lull. Mobs who have their backs to you should have a much reduced assist radius. However it should make them totally inert. If you sneak tag a mob and it runs right on top of its friend who has it's back to you, it should still aggro.

#1 That's wrong. Sneak is not supposed to break on attack.
#2 Correct. Projectiles should have flight times. Not sure what your point on sneak fails is, it's practically 100% (probably should be) for rogues and easy to check for monks.
#3 How it's functioning for sneak singles is accurate and there's safehouse articles to back that up.

[Haynar]

#1 That's wrong. Sneak is not supposed to break on attack.
#2 Correct. Projectiles should have flight times. Not sure what your point on sneak fails is, it's practically 100% (probably should be) for rogues and easy to check for monks.
#3 How it's functioning for sneak singles is accurate and there's safehouse articles to back that up.

My understanding, is you are supposed to drop sneak, throw, if sneak is up before dmg hits, good sneak pull.

If sneak is up when u throw, and u didnt drop sneak, it drops on sucessful hit. It does not on miss?

Please clear up details.

H

[Daldaen]

My understanding, is you are supposed to drop sneak, throw, if sneak is up before dmg hits, good sneak pull.

If sneak is up when u throw, and u didnt drop sneak, it drops on sucessful hit. It does not on miss?

Please clear up details.

H

I'm not exactly clear on the hit/miss thing. One side suggests that the only way you could successfully sneak pull was on a missed throwing item when you never connected. This way the only way throwing item sneak pulling worked was when your throwing item missed.

Others suggest that so long as you had sneak engaged while the projectile was in the air, you will successfully sneak pull it. This situation is the one that has the most agreement on.

Cecily reread the posts in this thread. They disagree with your beliefs. The statements and posts from the Safehouse were updated over the years to include several changes, namely the sneak doesn't break on you hitting a mob patch in Luclin.

And no, you couldn't herpderp a train of 50 mobs in fear and sneak pull out one mob in the center of the pack. Projectile collisions didn't allow for it (a projectile would hit a mob inbetween you and your target, pulling the incorrect mob) and sneak shouldn't remove assist entirely just reduce it like the mob is harmonied. Again reread posts on this.

I find it funny that you hate the exploit rogues use to pickpocket Tani. But sneak pulling Myconid Spore King solo through the jail to the tube room is totally legit...

[Haynar]

Here is what i see from melee. Sneak up, a miss draws no aggro. Sneak up, a hit drops sneak.

So ranged attack, sneak up when attacking, a miss is easy mode. Sneak pull.

Ranged attack, sneak up when attacking. A hit drops sneak. Epic fail.

Ranged attack, sneak down when attack. If you get sneak up, before it hits (hit or miss). Score. Sneak pull.

That was what i can gather from posts i read.

H

[vouss]

Some of those mechanics seem conflicting. The hit/miss mechanics imply that attacking does not break stealth unless you hit the target. While having to turn on sneak after throwing would suggest that attacking DOES break sneak but you can simply re-apply the ability before your projectile hits the target. While it still works as you have it stated (hit/miss is the only deciding factor wether or not your sneak breaks, but turning on sneak after throwing a weapon before it hits creates some loophole around this?) It seems weird, and like that's not how the developers would have intended it to be.

[evilkorn]

http://sanguineblade.yuku.com/topic/1427/Sneak-pulling
When Mobs are relatively close together and facing the same direction (or at least not facing oppositie directions), this is when sneak pulling is the most possible.

What you do is have sneak/hide on, inch up behind the target you want (the closer of the two with it's back to you), and hit your range attak until it goes off. As soon as it goes off and you fire at the mob, keep stepping backwards. WHen you fire, you will unhide but will continue to sneak. The mob will then come towards you, but by the time it gets to you and breaks your sneak you are out of the aggro range of the other mobs you don't want to pull. THerefore, you've just singly pulled from 2+ mobs standing next to each other.

Feb 13 01 2:17 PM
No mention of sneak breaking when thrown or having to sneak again during flight.

[Man0warr]

Yeah I don't remember all the mechanics of it, I was like 14 in 1999 - but I remember sneak not breaking with ranged weapons on a miss or a hit. As a rogue, HIDE definitely does break on a ranged attack, which is why BOTH mobs had to be facing away from you when you did this or you would aggro any mobs facing you (and thus all the mobs near after proxy aggro) because only sneak was still on.

Some of these Safehouse posts are in late 2000 and 2001 with no edits.

I guess you could not trust these old archived posts but since that's the bulk of your proof for every other change you propose you can't have it both ways.

[Erati]

doesnt make sense that a 'miss' would be nearly exploitative and the desired result when using a throwing item while pulling

Sneak either broke or it didnt when using a throwing weapon - I doubt it broke only on 'hits' and not 'misses'

[Haynar]

Thats the issue. Some of old archived posts dont make sense.

I do have the delay from using ranged weapons working now.

So what is the issue really? Sneak pull should only work on mobs with no aggro? So you cant DA, and tag split?

H

[Man0warr]

Thats the issue. Some of old archived posts dont make sense.

A lot of stuff that worked in classic makes no sense to a game developer in 2015.

Heck it only took them a year and a half to admit that both Feign Death and Complete Heal (rotations) were being used in ways they didn't want/expect but it was too late for them to change it without causing huge uproars - in effect both of these abilities were broken and in FD's case, totally unintuitive in how it works.

I do have the delay from using ranged weapons working now.

Flight time on projectiles is classic, so that's good.

So what is the issue really? Sneak pull should only work on mobs with no aggro? So you cant DA, and tag split?

No one DA's and tags, so that's wouldn't change anything. It already works this way.

You either have a monk FDing a few times to wipe aggro, or a monk who pulls and then another person (who doesn't have aggro) with sneak pull off him.

Basically what they want to change is sneak tags not causing aggro on mobs near the mob you pull (even if all mobs are facing away from you), which would fundamentally change how sneak functions in all situations not just pulling.

[Haynar]

I don't want to disable sneak pulling.

But as i understand, it works in some ways that it shouldnt.

H

[Daldaen]

Thats the issue. Some of old archived posts dont make sense.

I do have the delay from using ranged weapons working now.

So what is the issue really? Sneak pull should only work on mobs with no aggro? So you cant DA, and tag split?

H

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1644096&postcount=6

This is the best description of it because it shows how it was changed to work in Luclin. Which is the way it is working currently.

Before this point, when you hit the Ranged Attack button, your sneak should break. However you can activate sneak again while it is in flight. This mainly matters for short distance tags where activating sneak before the ranged item hits may not be doable or for the situations where your sneak didn't work, since you can't guarantee a successful sneak before tagging anymore.

Also as mentioned in a few posts I made earlier (when I get to my hotel tonight and am not on a phone I'll requote) but basically sneak is currently functioning as a complete removal of assist if the monk is facing away from you. What it should do is have a reduced assist range, not entirely removed.

This allows people to tag a mob, have the mob run over top of mobs (or unclassicly tag a mob even though there were mobs inbetween you and your target - in classic the collision of the projectile would've aggroed those mobs inbetween) and get a single pull. It's not correct.

Haynar I would suggest playing around with sneak pulling on your dev server, see how the mobs work now, especially when they are all on top of each other. Then see how it works when mobs facing away from you are coded to have assist radii which they have when Harmonied or Pacified. Which is what the posts describe and what classic experience suggests.

No one was sneak pulling much of anything during classic. Here it is horribly OP and replaces FDing monks in many cases when it shouldn't. It should have some value and rogues should be able to split certain areas with sneak. But it shouldn't be the easy-button it currently is.

[Haynar]

What i am going with is this.

Ranged attack will drop sneak.

If you get sneak back up before damage, then sneak pull will work.

If mobs have aggro, no sneak tagging one away.

Have one more thing i am looking at, so i am not sure on.

H

[Daldaen]

Sneak back up while projectile is flying, before damage or miss = Classic

However I don't think the aggro part is correct. A mob can be aggroed and sneak pulled. But you shouldn't be able to sneak pull it, have it run on top of several mobs (like right on top), and leave them unaggroed.

Sneak should just reduce assist and aggro range, not remove it entirely.

[Haynar]

I dont know on aggro part.

I used to tag stuff, invis. And pull them right over other mobs, and they wouldnt add. Places like seb, would have to selectively get rid of see invis mobs. You wanted to grief ppl, you killed mobs in their path, so see invis ones might pop.

H

[Man0warr]

What i am going with is this.

Ranged attack will drop sneak.

If you get sneak back up before damage, then sneak pull will work.

If mobs have aggro, no sneak tagging one away.

Have one more thing i am looking at, so i am not sure on.

H

Why are you making ranged attack drop sneak? What proof has Daldaen provided? While we have shown Safehouse posts from 2000 and 2001 showing it DOES NOT drop sneak, only hide, for both misses and hits.

[Aesop]

This is my memory of it as a rogue who sneak pulled often:

it should operate the way sneak operates:

sneak reduces general aggro radius, sneak pulling should decrease it by the same amount (like a passive lull with a different radius)

if the mob be behind another one, then just like sneaking behind a mob you are effectively invis. so say you have two frogs standing back to back you can sneak pull one from right next to it because it can't see you because you are sneaking.

so the mechanics worked just like the general mechanics of sneaking but applied to mob aggro and pulling.

also if you tried to sneak pull from hide, it would break hide and sneak both and ruin the pull. sneak didn't even drop if you sneak pulled and the mob hit you.

[Aesop]

i played until luclin though,and it's hard for me to separate what worked how. honestly im not sure i even knew how to sneak pull in 1999 so take what i say with a grain of salt (i know you do)

[Pint]

This thread derailed to pull mechanics when the biggest issue with sneak is its ability to be used as a 100% mem wipe. If you pull a large train you should not be able to fd then sneak, stand and drop sneak to reset your aggro. You know that is not classic, everything else in this thread is just ppl speculating for nerfs.

[Man0warr]

This thread derailed to pull mechanics when the biggest issue with sneak is its ability to be used as a 100% mem wipe. If you pull a large train you should not be able to fd then sneak, stand and drop sneak to reset your aggro. You know that is not classic, everything else in this thread is just ppl speculating for nerfs.

Yeah that shouldn't work.

I actually didn't know it did (if it does as you describe) - but I've never had any trouble pulling without using that tactic.

It's not even that relevant anymore now with repeated FD successes have larger chance of wiping aggro.

Has nothing to do with what Daldaen is trying to get nerfed (even though it has no basis on classic EQ).

[Haynar]

This thread derailed to pull mechanics when the biggest issue with sneak is its ability to be used as a 100% mem wipe. If you pull a large train you should not be able to fd then sneak, stand and drop sneak to reset your aggro. You know that is not classic, everything else in this thread is just ppl speculating for nerfs.
You sure about that not being classic?

I used to do almost same thing with mobs that dont see thru invis. You pop instant cast CoS, as soon as u stand, can pull off memblur almost all the time. U had about 1/2 sec to get invis. So with good ping times could pull it off easy.

H

[Haynar]

Why are you making ranged attack drop sneak? What proof has Daldaen provided? While we have shown Safehouse posts from 2000 and 2001 showing it DOES NOT drop sneak, only hide, for both misses and hits.
Gonna call partial both ways. What safehouse supports, is that it didnt drop for rogues. And rogues definitely had better sneak.

The monk boards support that for other classes, that ranged attacks drop sneak before luclin changes.

Another piece I remember with bolt spells, and i will be adding this, if another mob gets in way, you may hit them instead.

H

[Man0warr]

I don't see why a developers memory should be anymore infallible than players - you have always required us to find proof before making changes, not going by "thoughts" and "memories".

[Haynar]

I don't see why a developers memory should be anymore infallible than players - you have always required us to find proof before making changes, not going by "thoughts" and "memories".

Could it be a lot of players lie? Dont know? Guess? Didnt have all the details? Take your pick.

I have a good memory. Better than most. And I cheated too. Using seq, you can see a lot of mob interactions you would not otherwise see.

Just how it is.

H

[evilkorn]

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8889

4) Using Thrown Weapons and Sneak to split.

With the changes to Sneak (no longer dropping when you use a thrown weapon ) another use has come up! In order for this to work, you must be using a ranged weapon with a ranger greater then the static aggro of the mob ( ie method # 3 listed above): engage sneak, throw, insta split. Personally I'm using summoned suriken for this, and I haven't had to use FD on a split since I got back into EQ. This includes splitting spawns where the mobs are literally on top of each other, although some times I have hit the mob i didn't have targeted, I have never aggro'ed the other.

I am pulling the right courtyard in Karnor's Castle. It is a full spawn, but I am only interested in a skeleton because other mobs are green. I put sneak on, throw a javelin (range 205!) at the skellie from the courtyard archway, and back away (with sneak still on). The skellie follows the typical weird KC path, taking it past the courtyard door and other mobs.
03-02-2001, 01:17 PM

This is more 2001 sneak staying active after throwing.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040109123512/http://pub146.ezboard.com/fthesafehouselibraryreadonly.showMessage?topicID=1 08.topic

Basically, Sneak does two things - depending where you are in relation to the mob. One, automatically sets you to indifferent if in the rear arc of the mob - and two, reduces aggro range if in the forward arc of the mob.

If you come up behind two mobs and fire a bow, or throw at one - only the target will come as long as you keep sneak engaged. It negates him from chain aggroing the second mob. As if the first mob normally says "Come on, there's a guy over here" and the second says "I don't see anything", shrugs and stays where he is.

As for Hide, it doesn't really affect the chain aggro betwen mobs - Sneak takes care of this. The usefullness of Hide only comes into play if you have to pass other mobs on your way back to the group with your pull.

If you are hidden, you can pass other mobs safely without aggroing even though your pull is aggro and following you.

Why would invis not function the same as hide as far as pulling a mob past others, you are indif with hide and as long as you don't run past see invis mobs it should function the same.

[Haynar]

I think I found why sneak pull was so easy.

So changes are coming.

Might not go for dropping sneak yet. I need more evidence. I did not play a sneaker.

H

[Daldaen]

Do you people even read the thread?

Evikorn, that is the very same post I quote originally.

Look at the second sentence (the one in parentheses). Where it says with the recent change to sneak making it no longer dropping when you use a throwing weapon.

Then look at see the last date that post was edited was July 2002.

Then look at the May 2002 patch notes and see this:

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020508.html

Sneak only breaks when a character is hit, not when he hits someone.

In summary: Before May 2002, a character hitting someone with a weapon (melee or throwing) should break sneak. Period.

[vouss]

Haynar will melee attacks be breaking sneak or just ranged? Currently they are tied.

[Haynar]

Do you people even read the thread?

Evikorn, that is the very same post I quote originally.

Look at the second sentence (the one in parentheses). Where it says with the recent change to sneak making it no longer dropping when you use a throwing weapon.

Then look at see the last date that post was edited was July 2002.

Then look at the May 2002 patch notes and see this:

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020508.html



In summary: Before May 2002, a character hitting someone with a weapon (melee or throwing) should break sneak. Period.
Back to my thoughts, of a miss, should not break sneak. On eqlive right now, you have sneak up while getting attacked, misses do not break sneak. Only taking damage breaks it.

H

[evilkorn]

I know about the 2002 patch but my posts from 2001 do not make a distinction between miss and hit when pulling out of agro range from other mobs or when they have their back to you.

[Haynar]

I know about the 2002 patch but my posts from 2001 do not make a distinction between miss and hit when pulling out of agro range from other mobs or when they have their back to you.

So what should a miss do?

In combat range, if mob does not normally aggro, doesnt do jack til u hit.

H

[Priceline]

So what should a miss do?

In combat range, if mob does not normally aggro, doesnt do jack til u hit.

H

this imo
http://cdn.yourepeat.com/media/gif/001/234/701/dd2e692634e176458953ca4f82c0aff6.gif

[kaev]

Another piece I remember with bolt spells, and i will be adding this, if another mob gets in way, you may hit them instead.

H

Oh please PLEASE do this with ranged weapons. One of the funniest things ever happened to me on live was Captain Silverwind walking between me and an orc just after I shot an arrow when I was a newb in GFay.

[Haynar]

Oh please PLEASE do this with ranged weapons. One of the funniest things ever happened to me on live was Captain Silverwind walking between me and an orc just after I shot an arrow when I was a newb in GFay.

Is it supposed to happen with ranged too?

I thought maybe. But have not seen it personally

Bolts, arrows, thrown, all use common elements.

H

[kaev]

Is it supposed to happen with ranged too?

I thought maybe. But have not seen it personally

Bolts, arrows, thrown, all use common elements.

H

Yeah, ranged would hit mobs and trees (and other placeable geometry shit). You can see mention of hitting the wrong mob when pulling in the monkly-business quote given in the second post of this thread.

[Daldaen]

Is it supposed to happen with ranged too?

I thought maybe. But have not seen it personally

Bolts, arrows, thrown, all use common elements.

H
Yes ranged items would do the same thing. More importantly than hitting another mob though is getting stuck with geometry. Meaning if it hits a tree or a wall, the arrow is lost and the mob is unaggroed.

For example mobs that were tanked in corners weren't able to be shot with bows due to this.

[Haynar]

The plan is for anything that blocks los, will stop an arrow or bolt.

What about other players? Block bolts i heard yes.

[Kender]

Rangers used to have to be careful on raids when they were firing arrows to make sure they hit the boss and not their raid mates (no damage done but arrow blocked).

it was fine for large model targets becasue the arrows hit a hitbox which was taller than the players. they just had to stand back a bit further.

i'm going off memory though as i never played a raiding ranger. they did all used to levi and try and fire from height to prevent issues

This was also post velious when ranger bow dps got alot better and viable

[Throndor]

The plan is for anything that blocks los, will stop an arrow or bolt.

What about other players? Block bolts i heard yes.
Players no, pets yes. Stopped hitting pets with bolts and ranged attacks at the same time that they fixed the aoe rain spells to not hit pets 2 months into velious.

On that note, green spell gems (pillars alkabors) never hit pets. Not sure why targetted non-rain aoe such as pillars and alkabors are currently expelling charges on pets, while aoe mez is not, but it was never supposed to be coded that way to begin with. When the aoe rain code was regressed to hit pets (on p99), it was coded to do this with all aoe spells, and then you put an exception in for mezmerization and fascination. That exception should be universal for all green-spellgem targetted aoe.

[Raev]

You sure about that not being classic?

I used to do almost same thing with mobs that dont see thru invis. You pop instant cast CoS, as soon as u stand, can pull off memblur almost all the time. U had about 1/2 sec to get invis. So with good ping times could pull it off easy.

H

I thought the conclusion was that invis/sneak did not blur but just somehow prevented reaggro, and when sneak dropped (or they turned to face you) they would return. Currently sneak itself is not blurring aggro (sneak + unsneak while FD = they come after you) but standing up while sneaking and them facing away = 100% blur. I don't know whether that's a bug or not, but that is the current behavior.

I am kinda looking forward to ranged collisions, but in reality it will just mean SKs get to pull more with spells and bigger trains.

[Haynar]

I did find something that is making sneak pulling too easy. Farm ur Fungi's boys and girls while easy mode is still in.

I have projectiles and bolts tracking their positions now while in flight for basic trajectories. Working on collisions with world objects next. Then with NPCs, then players, are the goals.

H

[Daldaen]

Sounds good Haynar thanks for looking into it.

[Raev]

I did find something that is making sneak pulling too easy. Farm ur Fungi's boys and girls while easy mode is still in.

I have projectiles and bolts tracking their positions now while in flight for basic trajectories. Working on collisions with world objects next. Then with NPCs, then players, are the goals.


I am really looking forward to actual classic difficulty pulls. Great work Haynar!