Why aren't rogues top DPS?

[yaeger]

I found that slightly odd that rogues aren't the top damage class with their narrow skill-set. Usually there's some sort of compromise with a variety of factors. For a DPS class these are normally scaling DPS vs. Utility for inter-class balance.

In my opinion, and most of those that I've queried, rogues aren't considered to be in the top 3 of DPS dealers in classic. With Wiz, Mage, and Monk competing for the top 3. With exceptions of course based on skill levels and gear.

So then, why do rogues end up in the bottom of all of the DPS category?

Did Verant forget to include some skills that make rogues as much of a threat as the other DPS classes? Were rogues intended to be a primarily utility class to be used in dungeons to unlock key doors and disarm lethal traps that were never implemented?

Will this be improved at all in the near future, or are rogues put in the same category as rangers?

[Reiker]

Whoever you're getting EQ advice from is retarded. I suggest you stop.

[Skope]

Rogues are the top DPS when it comes to raids, followed by monks then mages.

Who did you ask and in what situation are you referring to?

In short fights, mages/Wizards will out DPS a rogue, but when it comes to fighting mobs that are high cons (white>red) a rogue/monk will out DPS a wizard and even a mage in classic, and most certainly in kunark and velious. Mage DPS takes quite a hit during kunark and late classic, wizard gets boosted, but rogues are still your top DPS.

[yaeger]

I was asking because I'm having a hard time seeing in what cases would inviting a rogue to group have a greater impact than say a monk, wiz, or mage.

Also, I understand what you're talking about in raids with sustained vs burst DPS. However, I wasn't sure as to how that all stacked up with Mages/Wizards being able to cast from outside AOE range, mages using a pet to supplement their med down-time, or the increased AC on raid mobs.

But then I looked at it from a utility aspect and in my opinion Rogues lose out big in all the departments of utility. For example nothing like ports, group beneficial spells (ports, invis, summons, mod rods), and feign death/mend.

Taking all of that into effect I would have guessed that rogues would clearly be top DPS and was surprised to learn that it might not be the case.

If classic rogues are somehow 'flawed' in that regard, why don't we try and buff the class by improving poisons, upping DPS, or doing something else to boost the class?

[fwaits]

I was asking because I'm having a hard time seeing in what cases would inviting a rogue to group have a greater impact than say a monk, wiz, or mage.

Also, I understand what you're talking about in raids with sustained vs burst DPS. However, I wasn't sure as to how that all stacked up with Mages/Wizards being able to cast from outside AOE range, mages using a pet to supplement their med down-time, or the increased AC on raid mobs.

But then I looked at it from a utility aspect and in my opinion Rogues lose out big in all the departments of utility. For example nothing like ports, group beneficial spells (ports, invis, summons, mod rods), and feign death/mend.

Taking all of that into effect I would have guessed that rogues would clearly be top DPS and was surprised to learn that it might not be the case.

If classic rogues are somehow 'flawed' in that regard, why don't we try and buff the class by improving poisons, upping DPS, or doing something else to boost the class?

Because this is Project 1999 which is intended to mimic the original game experience as closely as possible to the original release back in 1999. Simple as that. That is the guiding principle/mission of the devs and this community.

[Bubbles]

Just be thankful poison is actually implemented and most rogue skills actually work... rogues got the complete shaft till Kunark on live.

Or keep talking, /shrug.

[yaeger]

Because this is Project 1999 which is intended to mimic the original game experience as closely as possible to the original release back in 1999. Simple as that. That is the guiding principle/mission of the devs and this community.

I can't argue against that. But we avoid all of the pitfalls, bugs, and exploits of the Classic Experience. Our previous experience of the game will tell us what the most useful drops are, where they can be gotten, what timers, etc. It'll also tell us what classes to avoid and why, what are the 'OP' classes, what's fundamentally wrong with the weaker classes, and in general a lot of the rougher patches of the Classic game.

I'd love to change the status quo where fully half the server seems to be playing solo classes who run circles around the rest up to level 50.

We have the opportunity here to make classic better, with less obvious imbalances. Why not take advantage of it?

[Buhbuh]

You won't see ownage until Kunark, basically. Double backstabs at 55, discs, Ragebringer. They aren't substantially better DPS than every other class until that point. Once Kunark comes around they start laying it the fuck down though.

[abbadox]

You won't see ownage until Kunark, basically. Double backstabs at 55, discs, Ragebringer. They aren't substantially better DPS than every other class until that point. Once Kunark comes around they start laying it the fuck down though.

THIS

[Sckrilla]

I'm constantly top-DPS along with other rogues in raids, sometimes only out-DPS'd by Monks. Not sure where you're getting your info from?

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Wanna be top dps, be monks!

[yaeger]

I'm constantly top-DPS along with other rogues in raids, sometimes only out-DPS'd by Monks. Not sure where you're getting your info from?

Just raids?

[yaaaflow]

In a group with a reasonably good tank and healer rogues are top dps, for sure. With all the utility sneak/hide gives rogues they are sweet to have around. Whoever told you they are bad is wrong

[Humwawa]

According to devs, the four "pure" classes - hunters, warlocks, mages, and rogues - should out-damage the hybrid specs in Patchwerk-style raid encounters.

...I really don't think exp groups give a crap who they have in a group, so long as there's a healer, a tank, and something that looks like it's doing something to hurt the kobolds/crocodiles/orcs/whatever. AS for raids, rogues are valuable. All classes can be valuable. Don't sweat the "who is better at what" nonsense and just enjoy the class you play.

[Noleafclover]

I'm constantly top-DPS along with other rogues in raids, sometimes only out-DPS'd by Monks. Not sure where you're getting your info from?

Monks ARE slightly higher in general, pulling aside; but that doesn't mean the end of the world for rogues.Rogues are the 2nd-best dps classic in classic with good gear, and I think with the very best gear they come in even with the best geared monks, and will pass us in kunark. They currently do 2-3x the dps of a monk when the monk is pulling. Rogues are fine.

...We both lose to charmed pets though T_T - that cleric of innoruuk put up 65 dps, and the abhorrent is average 40, and high for any melee is 36, I think. And the unnamed melee had wolf form :D

This is all hate, numbers in fear are always about 55% of the numbers in hate.

[Cyrano]

I'll put my DPS up against a monk /shrug.

[Cheps]

Will this be improved at all in the near future, or are rogues put in the same category as rangers?

Us rangers are fine, thank you.

[Virtuosos]

rogues are great, i dont think i could play one though....i love and always have loved my paladin both in live and here, no other class will ever compare :p

[Reiker]

According to devs, the four "pure" classes - hunters, warlocks, mages, and rogues - should out-damage the hybrid specs in Patchwerk-style raid encounters.
Wtf is this mumbo-jumbo.

Anyways, with all melee characters, there's this thing called gear progression. Mages have the advantage of not having a gear progression, they get new spells as they level and that's the vast majority of their dps (the other being getting a pet focus item which is easy as hell). When you're leveling up to 50, you usually don't have bone razors and RBBs thrown at your feet, so you have low to mid tier gear progression. Whereas a mage is pretty much always at the top tier of their dps by the simple virtue that they have levels (and thus spells). Replace any other caster with mage obviously, but I'm just saying mage because they're the big dps caster.

Something strange happens at level 50. You no longer get spells through "level progression" which means a mage is going to cap out at the same time they hit raiding. However, a rogue continues to raise their dps until they're #1 in the game. In a fully geared out raid situation, your rogues should be sitting in the top positions, even on P99.

However, if this was truly 1999, those same rogues would be below a lot of other classes. Rogues were horrible in true classic, and they actually perform as they should here, so that might be a source of confusion I guess.

[Humwawa]

Wtf is this mumbo-jumbo.

It's my way of gently making fun of class balance arguments/complaints.

[guineapig]

I find that on raids the exp group is the group with the rogue(s) pretty much hands down. Have a rogue and monk in the same group and you are basically getting exp every single kill.

[xorbier]

I'd always heard monk dps is roughly 18% less than a rogue. Also rogue dps owns and is probably the best in game if geared properly.

[Buhbuh]

Monk damage is very high and consistent. Rogues are somewhat high and then have the high burst damage as well.

You'll be hard pressed to find a better DPS class in PvE with a Ragebringer in your main hand though. Those double backstabs are severely brutal. On low level mobs you got assassinate as well, which isn't really a big deal for raiding purposes but is a nice little thing to have.

Also, Monks didn't receive triple attack at 60 until a patch in Velious, so really, you're looking at Rogues with the advantage through and through.

Even more so in Velious when Rogues take some primal. Their damage is insane. I remember in PvP when they'd proc primal as well. It was very hard for Rogues to have their hits miss/ not hit for max.

Monks were always my favorite choice in PvE/ PvP though. I thoroughly enjoyed leading raids and the great utility/ survivability, even in sticky situationsthatswhatshesaid.

[Noleafclover]

Mages aren't the big DPS caster, mod rods only hit for 275 or so (I'm a monk, IDK the numbers) Starshot does a pretty good amount of damage to Kolevii every raid though, maybe I'm wrong.

I'd be kinda interested to see what some of the best geared rogues parse at, in a plane of hate raid.

Also, kinda sad to say there's a short ending to melee scaling in classic. At 150 or so str w/ a bard in group, or 188 (not really feasible w/o the best gear), you're done as a monk. Sure you could up your dex for a mild increase, but you'd be better going for hp/ac.

Spose rogues have it a little better, or at least different. 188 str is easy for ya'll, from what I hear, and it's just about the weaps.

Neither of us get an upgrade from cloak of flames or bassoon hastes or anything in a raid, if it's anything like live. Sorry to kill whoever's dreams :) Steelwarrior and monklybusiness and other parses showed like a 72% cap

[Kastro]

Mages aren't the big DPS caster, mod rods only hit for 275 or so (I'm a monk, IDK the numbers) Starshot does a pretty good amount of damage to Kolevii every raid though, maybe I'm wrong.

I'd be kinda interested to see what some of the best geared rogues parse at, in a plane of hate raid.

Also, kinda sad to say there's a short ending to melee scaling in classic. At 150 or so str w/ a bard in group, or 188 (not really feasible w/o the best gear), you're done as a monk. Sure you could up your dex for a mild increase, but you'd be better going for hp/ac.

Spose rogues have it a little better, or at least different. 188 str is easy for ya'll, from what I hear, and it's just about the weaps.

Neither of us get an upgrade from cloak of flames or bassoon hastes or anything in a raid, if it's anything like live. Sorry to kill whoever's dreams :) Steelwarrior and monklybusiness and other parses showed like a 72% cap

Ragebringer is 41 Haste... Monk epic is clicky bard haste?

[Noleafclover]

presently. 72 or 74 or w.e becomes 100 in kunark

[Reiker]

I tried reading Ennui's post and now my brain is broken.

[Chodan]

what does he mean

[Buhbuh]

Yeah, I think solo monks may have the edge because their worn and epic stack. In a raid though, Rogues/ monks are way up there in DPS together. I think Rogues take it usually though. I'd always be pulling as a monk or assist pulling.

[guineapig]

I found that slightly odd that rogues aren't the top damage class with their narrow skill-set. Usually there's some sort of compromise with a variety of factors. For a DPS class these are normally scaling DPS vs. Utility for inter-class balance.

In my opinion, and most of those that I've queried, rogues aren't considered to be in the top 3 of DPS dealers in classic. With Wiz, Mage, and Monk competing for the top 3. With exceptions of course based on skill levels and gear.

So then, why do rogues end up in the bottom of all of the DPS category?

Did Verant forget to include some skills that make rogues as much of a threat as the other DPS classes? Were rogues intended to be a primarily utility class to be used in dungeons to unlock key doors and disarm lethal traps that were never implemented?

Will this be improved at all in the near future, or are rogues put in the same category as rangers?

To sum it up, I think everyone agrees that the above is completely incorrect.

[Hasbinbad]

I'll put my DPS up against a monk /shrug.
I'll put my dps up against yours! :D
<3

[Loke]

I'm probably the best geared / highest DPS monk in DA - and Loaki, Slayde, and Hasbinbad (3 rogues in DA) all out damage me 95% of the time.

Your information is incorrect.

[Supreme]

i dont care about DPS..i am just here to pickpocket gems.

[Icecometus]

^^
this

[Buhbuh]

Man, when he mentions skill levels and being a 'threat' in PvE, it kind of startles me a little bit. You literally mash backstab and turn on auto attack. Turn off attack/ hide probably very rarely in classic.

[Cyrano]

Man, when he mentions skill levels and being a 'threat' in PvE, it kind of startles me a little bit. You literally mash backstab and turn on auto attack. Turn off attack/ hide probably very rarely in classic.

Mmmhmm. Let me know how that works out for you.

[Shewz]

Y'all are retarded, I do like 2-3 times more dps than any rogue or monk.

Enchanters > You.

[guineapig]

Y'all are retarded, I do like 2-3 times more dps than any rogue or monk.

Enchanters > You.

Actually the group with the rogue often out DPS's the group with the charmed planar mob too. :p

[Dominick]

I was a rogue back then, and properly equipped we are required on raids.

You can't play a rogue like a tank on the back door. You better be hiding, backstabbing, and doing anything else you should (or shouldn't be) doing.

Its more of a chess game when you are in a group.

I recall my guild often fielding an all necro and SK group with one rogue. I learned quickly, sneak and hide until the pull, because if it was a bad pull everyone else plays dead but me!

[Shewz]

Actually the group with the rogue often out DPS's the group with the charmed planar mob too. :p

Then you're doing it wrong.

[guineapig]

Then you're doing it wrong.

No, charmed mobs are glitchy and skip attack rounds. Maybe the rogues you raid with are doing it wrong.

I'm not saying they out-damage the planar mob every time but often enough. Also since we are talking about a full group of 6, you have to take into account who else is in each group, who has what buffs, bard songs, etc.

Besides the thread was about classes that are primarily DPS, not support classes that can be DPS.

[Shewz]

Yeah you right Fry-man. How dumb of me to trust parsers.

[guineapig]

Yeah you right Fry-man. How dumb of me to trust parsers.

Why all the attitude?
I'm just going from raid experience on this server. Don't need a parser to read exp messages.

[Shewz]

Sorry if I don't feel like typing long-winded explanations of why you and your flimsy evidence are wrong, so I keep it short and full of my rad 'tude.

I know what you're thinking: "Someone on the forums that ISN'T a dumb windbag? Impossible!" But wake up sister, it's the truf.

[Muzyn]

Why all the attitude?
I'm just going from raid experience on this server. Don't need a parser to read exp messages.

Obviously a stacked dps group with a healer will outdamage a group with enchanter and a few other utility classes. Shewz stated an enchanter will outdamage the highest melee on the raid consistantly. We can prove this with our raid parses, if your parse shows otherwise then it speaks volumes about your charmers. If you're just talking out of your ass without any proof, then by all means, I don't expect any less from these forums.

[guineapig]

I found that slightly odd that rogues aren't the top damage class with their narrow skill-set. Usually there's some sort of compromise with a variety of factors. For a DPS class these are normally scaling DPS vs. Utility for inter-class balance.


This is what the thread is about. Not about a solo enchanter with a planar mob. When was the last time you saw a rogue soloing a planar mob? How long would an enchanter last with a charmed pet with no healer? Sure you can parse higher DPS from the planar mob then the rogue but you are parsing in a vacuum and you are also way off the topic of the conversation.

My main is an enchanter, I know how much DPS we can do, everyone does. You guys are real geniuses with your parsers. It doesn't change the fact that rogue is a straight DPS class and enchanter isn't. It also doesn't change the fact that rogues currently have the highest DPS of any DPS class in the game. Reread the thread and stay on topic.

Shewz stated this:
Y'all are retarded, I do like 2-3 times more dps than any rogue or monk.

If this were true it would take 2-3 rogues in a group to out damage a single enchanter and it currently doesn't. So who is talking out of their ass?

[Muzyn]

This is what the thread is about. Not about a solo enchanter with a planar mob. When was the last time you saw a rogue soloing a planar mob? How long would an enchanter last with a charmed pet with no healer? Sure you can parse higher DPS from the planar mob then the rogue but you are parsing in a vacuum and you are also way off the topic of the conversation.

My main is an enchanter, I know how much DPS we can do, everyone does. You guys are real geniuses with your parsers. It doesn't change the fact that rogue is a straight DPS class and enchanter isn't. It also doesn't change the fact that rogues currently have the highest DPS of any DPS class in the game. Reread the thread and stay on topic.

Shewz stated this:


If this were true it would take 2-3 rogues in a group to out damage a single enchanter and it currently doesn't. So who is talking out of their ass?

Every class is capable of DPSing. You need to stop pigeon holing yourself as "utility" because you haven't found the right mob to charm to consistantly double any rogue's dps. And before you spew some crap about it not making any difference, I have parses of a particular mob hitting 50% harder than every other mob.. thus doing 50% more dps. Wouldn't it make sense to assign 1 or 2 enchanters to a DPS role at your raids while the rest did buffs/debuffs/cc?

[guineapig]

Every class is capable of DPSing. You need to stop pigeon holing yourself as "utility" because you haven't found the right mob to charm to consistantly double any rogue's dps. And before you spew some crap about it not making any difference, I have parses of a particular mob hitting 50% harder than every other mob.. thus doing 50% more dps. Wouldn't it make sense to assign 1 or 2 enchanters to a DPS role at your raids while the rest did buffs/debuffs/cc?

Sure, when we have 4+ enchanters on a raid. And that's great that you found 1 mob in the game that you can say this for. What about the other 99.9% of the time though? You are speaking of a very specific situation, where as I am speaking of general every day situations.

I'm glad you are adding all this information that Shewz didn't. If Shewz would have started by saying that there is this Mob-X in Zone-Y that when charmed does more damage than 2 rogues then we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I don't doubt that there is.

And the problem with your statement above is this:

You need to stop pigeon holing yourself as "utility" because you haven't found the right mob to charm to consistantly double any rogue's dps.

Charm isn't what it used to be. Enchanters aren't consistently charming anything in the Planes, not by themselves. They need to chain stun or mez, re-tash, ask for malo, recharm, occasionally get healed by somebody.

A rogue on a raid asks for haste once every 15 minutes and does DPS the rest of the time.

I'm not pigeon holing myself, there are times when I'm called upon to keep a mob charmed for DPS or tanking purposes and that's what I do. But we aren't running 30-40 man zerg raids in our guild so when DPS is covered and crowd control or buffing is in short supply then my DPS = zero. Rogue DPS should never be zero unless the rogue is AFK or dead.

This is a silly argument to begin with. You could just as easily replace enchanter with bard or necromancer (I would say druid but there is nothing for them to charm worth mentioning.) Anyway, you get my point.

[Shewz]

My main is an enchanter, I know how much DPS we can do, everyone does.

Apparently you don't.


If this were true it would take 2-3 rogues in a group to out damage a single enchanter and it currently doesn't. So who is talking out of their ass?

Maybe not when that single enchanter is you. SHABURNT.

But seriously, reading your posts and looking at your post count, you've got some hardcore right-brain imbalance dawg. I don't recommend that you argue about any logical topic.

[guineapig]

Alright, name the mob and the zone and post your parse logs....
You are the one trying to prove yourself (while attempting to throw childish insults my way... not working by the way).
And while you're at it, show me how you can use this mob to out DPS 2 rogues wherever you go.

By the way, if you don't post the name of the mob and the logs, then kindly GTFO.

[Shewz]

Alright, name the mob and the zone and post your parse logs....
You are the one trying to prove yourself (while attempting to throw childish insults my way... not working by the way).
And while you're at it, show me how you can use this mob to out DPS 2 rogues wherever you go.

By the way, if you don't post the name of the mob and the logs, then kindly GTFO.

Lulz, no thanks. And y'know, I've never heard a child insult the balance of anyone's left and right hemispheres.

[guineapig]

Lulz, no thanks.

In other words it didn't happen?
Or do you think you found some super secret mob in the game that nobody else has ever charmed before?
Please...

You are talking a lot of smack and backing none of it up.

[Skope]

Enchanters should never be considered primarily as DPS on a raid, and really the only time they should be charming is when there are enough enchanters to go around that they are free to tag 2-3 mobs and still have plenty of chanter mana for mezzes, buffs and the like. Does this mean they can't be a DPS class? not at all, in fact they can do some of the most nutso things in everquest alone or with a druid/cleric, but they aren't a DPS class because their other tasks require far more attention and are far more important to a raid setting.

This is not to say that they can't be considered DPS. Certain mobs are far easier with a couple of enchanter pets then they are without them, but if it comes down to a raid where there are 2 enchanters and 2 rogues, the enchanters generally will not have pets and will be busy keeping everyone alive while and the rogues are making sure everything is dead.

EDIT: i've seen numbers parsed for DPS and rogues/monks tend to be very very close. Pets (mage/necro) usually come in behind the rogues and monks, followed by the rest. I know of a couple of mobs that can put out some very nasty DPS when charmed, but strictly speaking class and not specific situations, rogues/monks are at the top.

[Hasbinbad]

Hasted, a planar mob will easily out DPS a top-geared rogue, however a rogue's DPS doesn't turn against and kill him at random times. If yer hasting charmed planar pets outside of a boss kill, yer really taking unnecessary risks, and probably are either short-stacked as a guild or single-group raid or solo/duoing, or trying to compensate for something.

In other words, Shews, nobody cares how big your epeen is. You're acting like Stewart right now: "LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!"

http://tinypic.com/eir09

[azeth]

you'd need a legit sample size, id say 10 or more (way lowballed), of raids to even begin to parse the consistency of Rogue DPS versus an Enc's charmed pet imposing risk to the ENC and draining mana from healers.

If your healers have a shit load of mana, and the ENC has a shitload of STA then clearly the risk versus reward favors an ENC dps given that even when the charm breaks you're not looking at OOM clerics or Enchanter's corpse.

Rogues however, having played one from 1999->PoTime (big deal huh?), have the difficulty of finding the back and stabbing it. This happens with ZERO risk (you don't even have to be good, just not stupid) on every single mob pulled to the raid/camp.

@ mmiles8 -> where do we even begin imputting #'s into excel to quantify this.


This is a stupid question, with equally stupid answers.


edit: oh not to mention Rogue's have the most wildly innacurate damage parsing over time of any class. to parse a rogue's DPS you seriously need to take an average DPS on every mob that the rogue engages over the length of a raid. Even then, you're likely (without a large enough sample) to only capture a "good" backstab day, or a "bad" backstab day.

This is why I was so jealous of monks when velious hit on live. Sure I'm wild DPS and can own grind groups, but when it comes down to it *CONSISTENCY always wins. Enc charm is the epitome of inconsistency without sufficient backup from your raid (as i outlined above regarding healer mana pool).

So yes, I guess ENC damage > Rogue damage if your guild name ends in "Basterds" "inity" or "Ascension" because you're able to; sufficiently heal enchanters, help them CC while they recharm, and go about normal raid duties.

[Shewz]

In other words, Shews, nobody cares how big your epeen is. You're acting like Stewart right now: "LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!"

Someone's butt-hurt, and has bad taste in television.

This thread made my epeen so hard, especially all the people that are implying you can't charm a hasted planar mob and do your other duties at the same time, or that you need 4+ enchanters in the raid, or that it's zomgsorisky. Thanks for stroking my peen, brosefs.

[Muzyn]

Someone's butt-hurt, and has bad taste in television.

This thread made my epeen so hard, especially all the people that are implying you can't charm a hasted planar mob and do your other duties at the same time, or that you need 4+ enchanters in the raid, or that it's zomgsorisky. Thanks for stroking my peen, brosefs.

Some people just pride themselves on mediocracy. Get with the times, brah.

[Spud]

Anyone ever wish rogues were more like thieves in dnd games like baldurs gate? Where they are critical for detecting/disarming traps, picking locks etc. instead of basically being walking dagger dps machines like they are in eq?


also, anyone else cringe a little every time they read the word "epeen", by far my least favorite internet slang word

[azeth]

Anyone ever wish rogues were more like thieves in dnd games like baldurs gate? Where they were valued detecting/disarming traps, picking locks etc. instead of basically being walking dagger dps machines like they are in eq?

I can think of 2 situations a rogue plays this role:

1. Pickpocketing for Ragebringer
2. Disarming SSRA Traps

[guineapig]

Someone's butt-hurt, and has bad taste in television.

This thread made my epeen so hard, especially all the people that are implying you can't charm a hasted planar mob and do your other duties at the same time, or that you need 4+ enchanters in the raid, or that it's zomgsorisky. Thanks for stroking my peen, brosefs.

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/unsuccessful-troll.thumbnail.jpg

Some people just pride themselves on mediocracy. Get with the times, brah.

Any luck coming up with that magical mob name or your parses yet? Take your time, I know it's asking a lot.

[Shewz]

Any luck coming up with that magical mob name or your parses yet? Take your time, I know it's asking a lot.

We're not here to do charity work for the disabled.

[Muzyn]

Any luck coming up with that magical mob name or your parses yet? Take your time, I know it's asking a lot.

Still need your hand held in a game you've been playing 12 years? Go figure something out for yourself.

[guineapig]

Still need your hand held in a game you've been playing 12 years? Go figure something out for yourself.

No thank you sir, I do quite fine in game. Also, I don't think there is a single person here that has played Everquest for 12 straight years.

I'm sorry that you can't back up your claims but if it makes you feel any better, nobody was impressed anyway.

I remember Shewz now. He's the one that came here complaining when he lost his King camp after having to zone 3-4 times while trying to charm a single Shaman. :p

[Shewz]

I remember Shewz now. He's the one that came here complaining when he lost his King camp after having to zone 3-4 times while trying to charm a single Shaman. :p

Oh yeah! Shit just got real!

[Skope]

Oh yeah! Shit just got real!

Crediblity, meet toilet.

[Muzyn]

http://www.angryvagina.org/65dps.jpg

[guineapig]

Um... how is this a comparison?

[Muzyn]

Um... how is this a comparison?

Rogues/monks do 25-36dps compared to the pet's 65.

[guineapig]

Rogues/monks do 25-36dps compared to the pet's 65.

36 x 2 = 72


Y'all are retarded, I do like 2-3 times more dps than any rogue or monk.


You can see now why I called BS in his entire claim. Thanks for helping me prove my point.

Also, the parse for the rogue has to be done in the same zone with the same mobs, for the same length of time (we're talking entire raids worth of parses), with the same buffs on the player and same debuffs on the mob but we don't even have to get in to that now.

Can this specific pet be found in more than one zone cause I see level 50 rogues all over the place.

[azeth]

oh not to mention Rogue's have the most wildly innacurate damage parsing over time of any class. to parse a rogue's DPS you seriously need to take an average DPS on every mob that the rogue engages over the length of a raid. Even then, you're likely (without a large enough sample) to only capture a "good" backstab day, or a "bad" backstab day.

So yes, I guess ENC damage > Rogue damage if your guild name ends in "Basterds" "inity" or "Ascension" because you're able to; sufficiently heal enchanters, help them CC while they recharm, and go about normal raid duties.

[Muzyn]

36 x 2 = 72




You can see now why I called BS in his entire claim. Thanks for helping me prove my point.

Also, the parse has to be done in the same zone with the same mobs, for the same with the same buffs on the player and same debuffs on the mob.

For that particular clear no melee got higher than 28, that's still more than 2x higher so the claim stands. Either way, enchanter is highest dps in game...which is all we've been saying for the past few pages..meanwhile you've just been knit picking.

[Loke]

What was that parse taken against (i.e. mob type). I have parses of myself doing above 50 DPS (monk) and Hasbinbad doing close to 70 DPS (rogue).

[azeth]

More credibility fail on his part.

there is no way in hell a lvl 50 planar geared rogue is doing under 30 dps, no fucking way.

[Loke]

there is no way in hell a lvl 50 planar geared rogue is doing under 30 dps, no fucking way.

I could see a L50 rogue with no haste or non-dragon haste (swirlspine / fbss) and a 10 dmg spear (including trident assuming the parser wasn't logging procs as well) doing sub 30 dps in Plane of Fear.... however, that is quite the scenario lol.

I don't think any of DAs active rogue mains are doing sub 30 dps 95% of the time.

[Muzyn]

This is just getting retarded. I'm comparing pet dps to rogue/monk dps from the same trash clear. I'm sure you can find instances where a rogue did 70dps in a short fight or against a certain target. I'm sure I can catch the pet doing a retarded amount of burst damage too.

So to clear this up since you guys are trying to skew things in every which direction.

Shewz and I have claimed that our charms outdamage rogues on our raids.

We also mentioned of one mob that does 50% more damage than any other when charmed.

Both these hold true.

[Muzyn]

I could see a L50 rogue with no haste or non-dragon haste (swirlspine / fbss) and a 10 dmg spear (including trident assuming the parser wasn't logging procs as well) doing sub 30 dps in Plane of Fear.... however, that is quite the scenario lol.

I don't think any of DAs active rogue mains are doing sub 30 dps 95% of the time.

Post a parse of a full Fear clear since the AC nerf.

[Loke]

This is just getting retarded. I'm comparing pet dps to rogue/monk dps from the same trash clear. I'm sure you can find instances where a rogue did 70dps in a short fight or against a certain target. I'm sure I can catch the pet doing a retarded amount of burst damage too.

So to clear this up since you guys are trying to skew things in every which direction.

Shewz and I have claimed that our charms outdamage rogues on our raids.

We also mentioned of one mob that does 50% more damage than any other when charmed.

Both these hold true.

I'm not trying to split hairs or anything - I'm genuinely curious. I do a lot of messing around with parsers and it is interesting to see other people's data. Hence why I'm asking for details like what mob and what not - since without that, it is really hard to compare another person's data to mine.

[Loke]

Post a parse of a full Fear clear since the AC nerf.

I don't have one on hand since most of my logs were on my laptop which died on me recently - but next time I get a hour or two in fear where I don't have to pull the entire time I definitely will.

[guineapig]

Shewz and I have claimed that our charms outdamage rogues on our raids.


The claim was that charmed mobs out-damage 2-3 rogues/monks
Y'all are retarded, I do like 2-3 times more dps than any rogue or monk.


------------------------------------------------


We also mentioned of one mob that does 50% more damage than any other when charmed.


Yes, you did post that claim. How magic resistant is this mob? How often does it break mez? How quickly can it kill the enchanter when it does? Can you reliably use this pet on every raid versus a raid boss? Can you find anything similar to this mob anywhere else in the game? Are you afraid to post the name of the mob because it's game breaking and/or broken?

Regardless of whether or not you answer any of these questions, it had nothing to do with the point which was about reliable, consistent uninterrupted DPS.

Just because you tried to change the subject to that of your secret uber pet, doesn't mean that this is what the thread was about. You guys are the ones that started shooting off your mouths trying to sound EQ-uber...

[Muzyn]

The claim was that charmed mobs out-damage 2-3 rogues/monks


------------------------------------------------



Yes, you did post that claim. How magic resistant is this mob? How often does it break mez? How quickly can it kill the enchanter when it does? Can you reliably use this pet on every raid versus a raid boss? Can you find anything similar to this mob anywhere else in the game? Are you afraid to post the name of the mob because it's game breaking and/or broken?

Regardless of whether or not you answer any of these questions, it had nothing to do with the point which was about reliable, consistent uninterrupted DPS.

Just because you tried to change the subject to that of your secret uber pet, doesn't mean that this is what the thread was about. You guys are the ones that started shooting off your mouths trying to sound EQ-uber...

The more you guys mention how much faster a charm can kill the enchanter it makes me wonder if you ever bothered positioning for breaks. You can distance yourself to whirl before a mob reaches you, one of the other enchanters can whirl if they see you get hit. It's reliable enough to use on the entire clear and the bosses. Not sure what else you want me to say, other than to spoil it.

[azeth]

The more you guys mention how much faster a charm can kill the enchanter it makes me wonder if you ever bothered positioning for breaks. You can distance yourself to whirl before a mob reaches you, one of the other enchanters can whirl if they see you get hit. It's reliable enough to use on the entire clear and the bosses. Not sure what else you want me to say, other than to spoil it.


enjoy the old world enc dps phenomena while it lasts then. i am actually pretty impressed if your numbers (dps wise pet vs rogue) are legit.

[Shewz]

ITT: Chicanery trying to get protips. Learn to play.

My 2-3 claim still holds. Do you think 100% of rogues/monks do over 25 deeps on planes raids? Some do low 20s. God, why am I even responding to your airhead nitpicking?

[guineapig]

The more you guys mention how much faster a charm can kill the enchanter it makes me wonder if you ever bothered positioning for breaks. You can distance yourself to whirl before a mob reaches you, one of the other enchanters can whirl if they see you get hit. It's reliable enough to use on the entire clear and the bosses. Not sure what else you want me to say, other than to spoil it.

This is common knowledge. Any raid geared enchanter can charm the exact same mobs and have the exact same results as you. The difference is that most of us don’t bother to incessantly parse damage while playing. By the way, does your parse happen to include time spent recharming your mob when it breaks during a fight? I’m guessing that would add up a lot during a 2 hour long trash clear. Yes, that should be subtracted from your total DPS…

I am also pretty sure that I was level 50 before you started playing on this server. My main was an enchanter on Live and I went through much more difficult content than what’s currently available on this server. The only difference between you and me is that I don't try to impress people by talking about my leet video game skills on the internet. It’s kind of sad frankly.

I'm happily married, have a decent job and play on this server for nostalgia. There really isn’t anything that I need to prove to anyone here.


ITT: Chicanery trying to get protips. Learn to play.


See above:


My 2-3 claim still holds.

You have yet to prove your claim so it doesn’t hold squat.


Do you think 100% of rogues/monks do over 25 deeps on planes raids? Some do low 20s.

It’s not my problem that the rogues in your guild do such little damage on raids. Maybe you should spend more mana on buffing them then recharming your pet every few minutes?


God, why am I even responding to your airhead nitpicking?

Only you can truly answer that question. Maybe you have some deep-seeded need to try and impress everyone on the forums? I don’t know to be honest. But I’m guessing that the impression that people are getting from you is the opposite of what you were aiming for.

[Reiker]

It was so money when the Amygdalan Knights procced harm touch. Enchanters raped so hard.

[Shewz]

You keep saying you're awesome but the things you say just make me think you're dumb and bad.

[Muzyn]

This is common knowledge. Any raid geared enchanter can charm the exact same mobs and have the exact same results as you. The difference is that most of us don’t bother to incessantly parse damage while playing. By the way, does your parse happen to include time spent recharming your mob when it breaks during a fight? I’m guessing that would add up a lot during a 2 hour long trash clear. Yes, that should be subtracted from your total DPS…

I am also pretty sure that I was level 50 before you started playing on this server. My main was an enchanter on Live and I went through much more difficult content than what’s currently available on this server. The only difference between you and me is that I don't try to impress people by talking about my leet video game skills on the internet. It’s kind of sad frankly.

I'm happily married, have a decent job and play on this server for nostalgia. There really isn’t anything that I need to prove to anyone here.

Only you can truly answer that question. Maybe you have some deep-seeded need to try and impress everyone on the forums? I don’t know to be honest. But I’m guessing that the impression that people are getting from you is the opposite of what you were aiming for.


We're simply participating in a thread. A couple of clowns started trolling us throwing around fake numbers and calling BS on everything we've said. You cant find a way to dispute data so you turn it around like we're here to impres s someone?


P.S I'm a 40 year old virgin living in my grandma's basement who's parsing charm DPS when not flirting with mangina's on a fake EQ server.

P.P.S I have a 3 inch dick

[Loke]

We're simply participating in a thread. A couple of clowns started trolling us throwing around fake numbers and calling BS on everything we've said. You cant find a way to dispute data so you turn it around like we're here to impres s someone?


P.S I'm a 40 year old virgin living in my grandma's basement who's parsing charm DPS when not flirting with mangina's on a fake EQ server.

P.P.S I have a 3 inch dick

Wait, are you claiming that I'm a clown and trolling you? I was seriously trying to get information on your figures because I was genuinely curious. If you want to act like a cock though - noted.

[JackOfSpades]

*drives sign into the ground*
"Please don't feed the trolls."

[guineapig]

You keep saying you're awesome but the things you say just make me think you're dumb and bad.

Wrong, I have never said I was "awesome".

Your troll skill has gone up +1 though.

[Lazortag]

Could anyone have predicted that a thread with such an innocuous title as "Why aren't rogues top DPS?" would have turned into such an unbearable shitstorm?

[Shewz]

Wrong, I have never said I was "awesome".

Your troll skill has gone up +1 though.

/clap Glad you figured it out. I thought you'd caught on earlier in the thread but then you played the Wife, Job, 'I WAS PRO ON LIVE', and 'I HAVE NOTHING TO PROVE' cards, among others, and I face-palmed. I face-palmed hard.

[Noleafclover]

Could anyone have predicted that a thread with such an innocuous title as "Why aren't rogues top DPS?" would have turned into such an unbearable shitstorm?

Lol. I'm going to clear a few things up, since Loke's curious.

I have the parse in question, it's a full hate clear.

For comparison, my high parse on muzyn's program is 36 in hate, and I don't think any of our monks or rogues have beat that. We aren't as well-geared as IB/DA though, I'd figure ya'll's rogues would be up around there or 40 on good days, with the same program. I usually parse just under 30 if I'm not pulling. I'm also usually with a bard so I have max str as a monk. Our decently geared rogues parse 25-30.

Yesterday, same mob (as the one that did 65 on august 1st), 46 DPS. We'd been charming something different before that, which was 35-45. One parse was as low as 30, but 4-5 parses at 40 and none others below 35, several above 40. I thought I would compete with the enchies soon till they tried this one :((

Can we skip the part where the div ench nitpicks and points out that Shewz' claim covers more of the high end, and just agree that ench pets do a shit ton more damage than anything else?

[Loke]

Thanks for the info Ennui - just wanted to know what zone the numbers were coming from and what not so I can compare. Appreciate the reply :)

[Reiker]

guineapig is annoying as hell. after you spend enough time here you'll get used to it and learn to just ignore him.

[guineapig]

You know there was nothing wrong with this thread until the trolls came in and started shitting all over it with how leet their skillz were. It was a nice civil discusion before that. Course we can't have that now can we?

[Eternal-Elf]

this thread should have been over in one reply.

Rogues are not the best DPS right now. When Kunark comes out they will become ridiculously better.

Wait it out, and it will be worth it. Until then.....have fun !

[Humwawa]

The mob they're referring to is Cleric of Innoruuk.

There are certain caster mob types that, when out of mana, have an absurdly high attack power compared to regular melee mobs. Cleric of Innoruuk is one of these.

Try this out -

Charm a dar ghoul knight, throw it at a Bloodthirsty. Observe the damage it deals and how long it takes to kill it.

Next, charm a kor ghoul wizard. Run it oom, do the same thing.

Do this for many, many hours, if you like. I can tell you what happens, though - the kor ghoul wizard pumps out a lot more damage than the dar, even though both mobs are in the same level range. Dars are typically 39-43, whereas kors are 41-42.

Caster mobs take more damage and have lower health values, but this rarely matters in a raid, or for an enchanter for that matter.

[Reiker]

this thread should have been over in one reply.

Rogues are not the best DPS right now. When Kunark comes out they will become ridiculously better.

Wait it out, and it will be worth it. Until then.....have fun !
Except that's wrong. Geared rogues are the best melee dps in the game.

[Sckrilla]

Athiyk wins!

[Trimm]

Whats individual class DPS matter anyway when there are 45 people killing a boss? Just sayin.