How twinking ruins EQ, and a solution.

[Crenshinabon]

I had to spark this topic up again everyone.

The whole twink mechanic, gear up a low level character in gear they should not have yet, is overall degrading to any server. On a PVP server this affect is amplified by having twinks be able to kill every newer character they see.

Overall having twinks is not a bad thing. It is great to have a high level character be able to have fun farming things for an alt to own stuff on.

That said I am bringing up ITEM LOOT. Rallos had a natural balance to a twink. Let me give an example :

Currently on 99Red (non item loot) the "griefers" will twink their alt and begin to destroy new characters and fight other twinks. The new characters, wanting to level to have a chance, will then run away trying to disengage from pvp so they can stop wasting time to be able to level again to even have a chance.

With item loot, if a twink player is attacking me or my group, NOW there is a REASON to kill him!! I WILL FIGHT HIM AND KILL HIM FOR HIS EPIC LOOTS!! Alas, I will probably die and lose my leather vest or possibly my lockjaw hide vest. But i will try!

In a group settings this is even more amplified. If my group is getting harassed with no item loot, we want to move on. The griefer is not going to stop griefing until we move on. Log off, or leave the area.

With item loot, your group will want to KILL the griefer. If you kill him and he loses some decent gear he will STOP. If my group must, we will bag our best gear and try to KILL HIM BACK! He is a twink and has epic level loot compare to my common items!

Item loot give meaning and purpose to pvp. Devs ... Nilbog, I know you will want this.
Great change will peek curiosities and they will come.

Love,
Neal

[Rellapse36]

tldr twinking is classic

[Nirgon]

Epic WoW playing faggots won't have classic pvp mechanics here

[Vamael]

all i see here is, item loot please.

[Shaakglith12194]

Doesn't PnP force the griefer to leave the area for an hour if you kill him? If you can't kill him now, how are you going to do it better when he's looted an item from every member of your group?

[Rellapse36]

dont have to leave

[Shaakglith12194]

dont have to leave

You don't have to leave the area you were just pvp killed in?

[Tubben]

I pvp'ed Lange (~30 Ranger) on my Enchanter (34, bad geared and all went into charisma = small manapool).

Lange just resisted almost everything till i was oom, i got him to like 80%, started to zonedance a while till i got an gate off.

Itemloot would just change, that the twinked chars get even more loot and the newbs loose the bit they have. Because it's simply not really possible to kill half naked an decked out twink :)

[Rellapse36]

You don't have to leave the area you were just pvp killed in?

Not if he does not call LNS

[Potus]

Item loot doesn't fix twinks, and it allows twink pks to grief people with less gear and make them even worse.

Most pk twinks have either no drop gear or they kill themselves rather than be looted (spammed manastones).

TLDR You're never going to loot a fungi tunic.
http://i.imgur.com/Dh76uwi.png

[Shaakglith12194]

Item loot doesn't fix twinks, and it allows twink pks to grief people with less gear and make them even worse.

Most pk twinks have either no drop gear or they kill themselves rather than be looted (spammed manastones).

TLDR You're never going to loot a fungi tunic.
http://i.imgur.com/Dh76uwi.png

This.

[Fame]

didnt read, stay outta unrest

[chu]

bet i would

not often

but itd happen

[Tradesonred]

Item loot doesn't fix twinks, and it allows twink pks to grief people with less gear and make them even worse.

Most pk twinks have either no drop gear or they kill themselves rather than be looted (spammed manastones).

TLDR You're never going to loot a fungi tunic.


Im sure it can be coded that you cant cheese your way out of a pvp death.

And yes the op has it right about item loot being less griefy than no item loot when you think it through and add custom no drop items to offset the harshness of item loot.

[Shaakglith12194]

Im sure it can be coded that you cant cheese your way out of a pvp death.

And yes the op has it right about item loot being less griefy than no item loot when you think it through and add custom no drop items to offset the harshness of item loot.

And what do you think the chances are of adding custom no drop items to a server with less than 200 population that tries to be classic? I'm sure it would be real easy to make it so you can't "cheese your way out of a pvp death." They just have to make it so that you can't die to mobs, can't canni/lich/manastone yourself to death, can't get hit by your own AoEs/damage spells, and can't remove items with HP on them. Simple stuff, I'm sure. Problem isn't the game, it's the players.

[Kazi]

Just started my dude and never had any problems with the twink griefing OP claims is rampant. Everyone has been awesome, in fact. Maybe I'm lucky. Or maybe it's because no ones ever around.

[Tradesonred]

I'm sure it would be real easy to make it so you can't "cheese your way out of a pvp death." They just have to make it so that you can't die to mobs, can't canni/lich/manastone yourself to death, can't get hit by your own AoEs/damage spells, and can't remove items with HP on them. Simple stuff, I'm sure. Problem isn't the game, it's the players.

As easy as Plyrdmg+70%=Plyercanloot im guessing

[runlvlzero]

Twinking is fun, but twinking BIS is lame.

[Shaakglith12194]

As easy as Plyrdmg+70%=Plyercanloot im guessing

So if a monk is going toe to toe with someone and does 70% damage, they can just aggro a mob, FD and loot. 2 SKs double harm touch a player, get in a couple rounds of melee, aggro a mob, FD, and loot. Also have to account for pets so that they count for player damage. In none of those cases did the player get the kill, yet they can loot. Great solution.

[Potus]

Just started my dude and never had any problems with the twink griefing OP claims is rampant. Everyone has been awesome, in fact. Maybe I'm lucky. Or maybe it's because no ones ever around.

Go solo in Unrest and meet everyone's deleveled Rogue twink with a Ragebringer.

Which again, wouldn't be solved at all whatsoever with item loot. Except when he one-shots you he'll take your Dwarven Work Boots or your Oracle Robe and delete it just to be an asshole.

[BigHurb]

http://i.imgur.com/ICpPDu1.jpg?1

[Clark]

tldr twinking is classic

[Tradesonred]

So if a monk is going toe to toe with someone and does 70% damage, they can just aggro a mob, FD and loot. 2 SKs double harm touch a player, get in a couple rounds of melee, aggro a mob, FD, and loot. Also have to account for pets so that they count for player damage. In none of those cases did the player get the kill, yet they can loot. Great solution.

Well i mean on a PVP server with PVP players it could work. On red99 with all these purples petitioning about the monk FDing, youre right probably wouldnt work.

[krazyGlue]

Alot of fucking tears in this thread . You don't like or want pvp there is a solution .. Play on te blue server you fgts

[Awwalike]

delete thread or ban OP dumbest post I never read

[Kergan]

My idea is that whenever you zone into Unrest a no rent ragebringer and fungi tunic is automatically put into your bags so you can fight on equal footing.

[Gustoo]

I find these anti item loot arguments hilarious

"Sometimes you die when you don't expect it1!!"

"Sometimes you get killed when you aren't ready!!, thats not fair!"

"Sometimes NPC's do damage to you also, and sometimes players use player abilities like feign death to avoid NPC damage!!! That seems like a tactic I can't do because i'm a druid!!!!"

OP is 100% correct. On live there was thriving low level pvp community, and cool guys like me didn't even bother to level up, because it was fun to PVP and hope for gains against raid mobs (good twinks)

I agree that in this way way way late game era, some additional features will be needed (level requirement on epic...possibly making some top tier gear lootable or something)

But for most normal people the only real problem in item loot times was back when you kept skills as you deleveled so like a level 20 rogue with max piercing skill vs level appropriate skill. Now with rogue MQ that is one other thing that should be nerfed. Lowbie rogue with epic was madness.

Otherwise I 100% agree. I would personally dedicate 3hrs a day to a guild dedicated to only hunting down and killing twinks in a specific level range to try to take their items.

Its way fun.

P.S. if you are leveling anywhere you are going to do your best to be aware of PK rogues and you will know all of their names and they will be on your friends list and when they are online you are going to be cautious and when they are in the zone you might just put away your DWB's because you know you are at 70% hp and at 20 mana as a pally and are in bad shape to NOT DIE INSTANTLY so you might pop on your banded or just bag all your junk in preparation for death. It isn't hard. It means people have to risk something to have an item based advantage over any other player which itself is a balancing mechanic. YES a group of people will always be able to kill you one way or another, which is always the case in everquest. Yes, you can get caught unfortunately and get ganked and lose something you are wearing if you are not careful.

So you need to be careful and you play smart and analyze the cost/benefit of wearing your expensive junk.

It also makes server economy more healthy because junk changes hands way more often. Yeah, it was super uncommon to loot a fungi tunic, but ikky regens were a pretty common prize and with all the twinks we have here there would be a lot of twink vs twink battling going on, or just a bunch twinks that are too eskerd to log on anymore.

Straight griefers are a lot rarer than PK's looking to loot items. On this server all we have is grief and "u mad" but thats because there are no other penalties for dying and no other rewards for killing.

[Buhbuh]

they did item loot on vztz and it has shown, historically, that server populations completely tank while the remnants of what the server was devolves into pure shit.

also requests for SZ-like playstyles are hilarious. worst pop server on live consistently... great idea.

let's try to get more people to play here while simultaneously implementing the most hardcore, player alienating server rules.

[Nocsucow]

please delete this thread ... why would anyone make a thread like this

[Gustoo]

VZTZ was a terrible server with no hope of staying for the long haul so no one bothered to care. Any examples based on that server are meaningless. Possibly removal of item loot allowed non dedicated players to come on to screw around for the next month or two until the server was dropped.

And yeah SZ ruleset was a bust.

[heartbrand]

This server will always suck as long as the player base is dumb as fuck. Can't rule change in brains for people.

[Tassador]

before you cheat jack off you will think twice about cheating. morale of the story get the poison out ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

[dre]

OP is a moron

[Gaffin 7.0]

lol moran for sure

[Holey]

I MAKE TWINKS TO KILL TWINKS!

but i dont even play anymore LOL

[Kergan]

I miss you Gream :(

[bigshowtime]

I miss you Gream :(

[Crenshinabon]

VZTZ was a garagebox that no casual players wanted to invest any time on at all. I have been a casual player my whole life and I love item loot. (no weapons) I do not get why some people are so anti item loot. It gives incentives for pvp and to fight a twink.

With teams the possibilities are even more awesome.

To everyone calling me a moron, you are a pussy who had griefed everyone they see with literally 0 repercussions for dying. That sounds fun guys. Obviously the way the server currently is set up is working. . . . . . oh wait.

When me or any other small group of casual players kill you trying to grief us (which you can do endlessly the way it is now) and loot your mithril BP, or TBB, or maybe even something more awesome like a FBSS I am sure you will cry more that item loot sucks. Maybe you shouldn't grief and try to shit on every person you see.

[Gustoo]

Yup. With item loot you can log on with some friends or solo and just look for someone to kill and hope for something cool. You can do this at any level. It means a lot of people can have fun without getting to level 60 to hang out with guys that spend all their time begging for gm handouts.

You can also role play a white knight anti pk and look for guys who kill in cold blood. It's great.

Yeah I get how it makes it uncomfortable for you to wear your fanciest clothes. I get it and that's the point and tbh i dont care about the end game because on this server that is not going to get new content..I hope the end game is impossibly hard and more importantly I want the rest of the game to be worth playing because it is infinitely more accessible. Level 60s on live were dedicated to the extreme. I dunno about you guys but i want there to be a reason for people to play other than to grind or raid. I think this server is beyond hope and I would not put item loot here. I would walk away and start a new one. Full of blue guys that either got kicked from blue and wanted s chance at virgin territory or want to feel like a hardcore badass by playing the softest accelerated exp low pop PvP server around. If you guys want to keep it blue and 100% raid focused I would leave you to it and make a new server. You got your wish and here it is. Low pop..not growing
Maximum whining. A dream come true.

OP is a genius.

[BrobbVZ]

What Gream? Bored of killing the same mobs to fill someone's pocket? LOL Surprise?

[Bamz4l]

Yup. With item loot you can log on with some friends or solo and just look for someone to kill and hope for something cool. You can do this at any level. It means a lot of people can have fun without getting to level 60 to hang out with guys that spend all their time begging for gm handouts.

You can also role play a white knight anti pk and look for guys who kill in cold blood. It's great.

Yeah I get how it makes it uncomfortable for you to wear your fanciest clothes. I get it and that's the point and tbh i dont care about the end game because on this server that is not going to get new content..I hope the end game is impossibly hard and more importantly I want the rest of the game to be worth playing because it is infinitely more accessible. Level 60s on live were dedicated to the extreme. I dunno about you guys but i want there to be a reason for people to play other than to grind or raid. I think this server is beyond hope and I would not put item loot here. I would walk away and start a new one. Full of blue guys that either got kicked from blue and wanted s chance at virgin territory or want to feel like a hardcore badass by playing the softest accelerated exp low pop PvP server around. If you guys want to keep it blue and 100% raid focused I would leave you to it and make a new server. You got your wish and here it is. Low pop..not growing
Maximum whining. A dream come true.

OP is a genius.


ya this community reminds me of a bunch of WoW players, the way everyone is only concerned with the end game (level 60, raiding). That's not what EQ pvp was about. Fun at any level

[runlvlzero]

ya this community reminds me of a bunch of WoW players, the way everyone is only concerned with the end game (level 60, raiding). That's not what EQ pvp was about. Fun at any level

Yes. Agreed. I hope you don't mind me agreeing with you but, DUURRRR I've been trying to tell people this for 200 years.

[Holey]

I miss you Gream :(

BEST thing in this thread LOL:D

[Holey]

What Gream? Bored of killing the same mobs to fill someone's pocket? LOL Surprise?

what? still trying to get dkp to spend on droppable items?
lululululul get the fuck outta here

[thisuserwasbannedlol]

item loot dumbest shit ever

[Mac Dretti]

ya this community reminds me of a bunch of WoW players, the way everyone is only concerned with the end game (level 60, raiding). That's not what EQ pvp was about. Fun at any level

That's why the server was all time funnest when pop was high because every zone had people at all levels.

PVPing in qhills>blackburrow> eastkarana> southkarana> while leveling the first time around was the funnest time.

[Crenshinabon]

That's why the server was all time funnest when pop was high because every zone had people at all levels.

PVPing in qhills>blackburrow> eastkarana> southkarana> while leveling the first time around was the funnest time.

MD, you don't get what happened though. Yes having a large population is great and makes for good brand new server fun, but the people who poopsocked all day and night to get ahead and then twink to literally grief every casual player off the server ruined it. 0 Repercussion to dying means a griefer can spend all fkin day ruining another plays day to where they literally cannot level and the kicker ... there was literally no reason AT ALL to fight back. Lets say you kill the asshat that has been bothering you all day long, instead of him actually losing something he respawns and within 10 minutes is back to fucking with you.

Item loot prevents this a lot. With a danger to going into a 1v5 it will be harder to completely destroy the 5 player groups game time.

I am not saying twinking is bad, I am saying there needs to be a counter to it and that is item loot.

Gustoo nailed it. If there was item loot I would literally run around with a few of my casual friends and try to kill twink griefers for some loot. Believe it or not it isn't supposed to be all about max level and poopsock raiding for pixels. This is also why EQ leveling used to be so slow and still fun. Pvp actually happened and mattered. Imagine that.

The only thing needed with item loot is deleveling fixes which would not be that hard to implement I would imagine.

Here is even a great example. I was like level 20 or so hunting in upper guk and there were two twink ogres in full crafted and other rediculous items to have at level 20. They literally messed with my group the entire 3 or 4 hours i was playing. Level 20 I am in full shit gear that probably helps me literally 0 against that shit, I might as well have been naked. We killed them say once or twice and guess what, within minutes they were back. Full gear stomping on my noob group again. That is great fun to increase population. Do you think that would have happened if we looted some of their OP gear off them? No. They would have not attacked a 2v5 group in full crafted gear to make the fight rediculously not fun. Most of the time we were not even trying to kill them but running away because THERE WAS NO POINT IN PVPING THEM.

I really truly believe that everyone who is against item loot are the people who run around like these ogres who like to waste other peoples time with 0 reprocussions for dying. THat is not pvp and hence why I do not play at this moment.

[Kergan]

Pretty convinced you never played with item loot based on your utopian viewpoint of it.

[Nirgon]

Pretty convinced you never played with item loot based on your utopian viewpoint of it.

He did. I think its great too :P.

Maps/compass being removed didn't have everyone excited either.

[Kergan]

Item loot was never a good way to incentivize PVP, and an even worse way to punish PVP loss.

Honestly one of the better ways to add PVP into a PVE game I've seen is how WoW would have a dungeon only available to the side that had won a battleground. You can argue (successfully) that it was implemented in a shitty way but the theory behind it is sound.

In a game about items (EQ character progress is 100% items) I think that battling over the ability to acquire an item is a far better incentive to PVP then the chance to take an already earned item from another player. It is for that reason you'll rarely if every see a 40v40 type fight in the middle of a zone for no apparent reason, but you may see it as people battle over zone control to drop a dragon.

It also has the added benefit of people always wearing their sunday best (competitive PVP) and minimizing/removing the "shitty death" factor of going LD or something.

[Crenshinabon]

Played on Rallos for years starting in 99.
I lost my fair share of items, but also gained a fair share of items. Usuaully what I lost though was some stupid shit gear that I cared little for because I didnt try and grief people all day in OP gear. If anything, requiring others to bag some of there best items leveled the playing fields for casual players including myself. Never once on RZ was I in a full group and have one person in full twink gear grief us all night long. It required them to be mostly naked and hence a lot easier for us to kill so he could not grief us 24/7 and waste our time.

I just watched a podcast of Sirken and he described end game pvp as "Wanting to kill the opposition and teabag there corpse or whatever they do." That had me fucking rofling. Sounds like a giant, there is no point to EQ pvp at the moment.

Its not a utopian view, I realize I will also lose items. I am just saying that I want a level playing field not full of twink bullshits who spend their entire day griefing others with no chance or reason to fight back. On item loot server even the twinks will think twice before attacking people in there ridiculously overpowered gear.

And Kergan you are talking about end game where 95% of the 500 players on the first day never got to because others who powerleveled to 50 to grief them wasted so much of the casuals time they said fuck it and never looked back. The endgame you are talking about will have more no drop gear anyways so a lot of people will be geared. I am talking about the people who get griefed off the server before they even hit level 30 or 40. Which is constantly due to no counter to low level twink bs. I am talking about the decline from 400-500 players down to 100-200.

[Kergan]

I am in 100% agreement about the low level griefing. But you're using a sledgehammer to kill a fly recommending item loot to solve it.

I'm probably going to hate myself in the morning after saying this but why not just add killing players under level 40 with excessively twinked characters to the PNP rules? Impossible to enforce maybe, but if you leave the rule vague enough and put it under GM discretion the handful of truly bad offenders will stop (Mrbigs).

[Gaffin 7.0]

dude kergan stop posting seek help