Doljonijiarnimorinar and joining the rotation(s).

[Hyjal]

Doljonijiarnimorinar is interested in hearing out the rotation plans, and potentially joining rotations for both Tier R, and Plane of Sky. We are hoping to speak with whoever runs these rotations to see if an agreement can be reached. We understand that we may have caused complications in the past, but we hope to resolve any further incidents. It is our hope that being included in the rotation(s) will soothe any misgivings about our guild as we would like to conduct ourselves in a manner that fits our community.

We realize that Project1999 is a community and we would like to be part of that community rather than a thorn in its side.

Message here or PM Hyjal in-game.

[Yaolin]

There is no apology in your post and you have not taken any responsibility for your guilds actions. "We may have caused complications in the past."

You were not able to achieve one kill in the last 3 weeks and now you want to join the rotation. I'm not sure what is going to happen here, but I hope it doesn't work out for you.

Apparently Class R needs to stick up for themselves or something and there need to be consequences for actions?

[Kope]

Sounds good, thanks for the arm. I personally don't have the information but let's get the talks going.

[Kope]

There is no apology in your post and you have not taken any responsibility for your guilds actions. "We may have caused complications in the past."

You were not able to achieve one kill in the last 3 weeks and now you want to join the rotation. I'm not sure what is going to happen here, but I hope it doesn't work out for you.

Apparently Class R needs to stick up for themselves or something and there need to be consequences for actions?

There's absolutely no reason for current hostility, let's move past what has been done and work for a better future for the server as a whole.

[Splorf22]

Doljonijiarnimorinar is interested in hearing out the rotation plans, and potentially joining rotations for both Tier R, and Plane of Sky. We are hoping to speak with whoever runs these rotations to see if an agreement can be reached. We understand that we may have caused complications in the past, but we hope to resolve any further incidents. It is our hope that being included in the rotation(s) will soothe any misgivings about our guild as we would like to conduct ourselves in a manner that fits our community.

We realize that Project1999 is a community and we would like to be part of that community rather than a thorn in its side.

Message here or PM Hyjal in-game.

I talked to Hyjal a bit in game. He said the he is a college student who started the guild for kicks and is getting tired of the huge amount of work it requires (you and me both, Hyjal). The guild took a vote, and they decided to try and get into the R rotation with the idea of eventually moving to C (I seem to remember saying that would be a good idea in RNF). He also came off as though most of the issues with his guild were a misunderstanding, i.e. that they were in Fear at the same time as Bregan but didn't realize that was such bad manners, that IB trained them in hate multiple times, and so on. I have not really had any direct experience with Lord Bob as a guild, so I might be a bit in the dark there.

My position is somewhere between Yaolin and Kope: regardless of past issues I'm not interested in some sort of guild-crushing thing like Zeelot and TMO used to love, but unlike Kope I still have some concerns.

I just don't see how Hyjal's story matches with what I have seen. For example, he told me that he spent all his time talking to people in-game rather than the forums, but when I specifically asked him if he wanted to join the rotation he immediately went AFK and then Subways told me later they weren't interested. And Caleros' oft-quoted post is much more a declaration of war than hardly one of revenge. When you combine this with the whole Acarer thing aired by Jeremy in RNF, I think it's quite possible that I'm being fed a giant load of bullshit, which would be . . not cool.

Regardless, I think we should move foward, but given the above issues and the overall past history I'm not inclined to bend over backwards for them either. Maybe we could start them off on a few of the easier mobs in the R rotation and open the harder ones to them as they progress. I'm not really sure what to do about Sky, the schedule is extremely packed. Maybe we could have some guilds do only the upper isles some nights? The A-Team is not really in a position to make any concessions there as we never get to do the Bees anyway.

[jpetrick]

I say let them on and they can sign up for any mob they want, just put them at the bottom of the list.

All I really want is for Hyjal to stop fucking sending tells to my guild. No one wants to merge and join that shitshow you are running over there.

[Troubled]

I'll try to get with you asap Hyjal and make a time where some of us can meet up. Good lookin out for your guild.

[Striiker]

I'll state that from Taken's perspective, there was never any misunderstandings. Dojo guild knew full well what they were doing each time they tried to snipe raid mobs from Taken (and intentionally trained us in Hate). I personally do not trust Dojo guild because nothing stated matches to reality.

Having said that, I was present for a discussion with Hyjal last night and we welcomed them to the R-Class rotation. I am willing to move on and not worry over the past but I will reserve judgment to see if their actions match up with their stated intent to be a part of our community. I am cautiously optimistic.

[Splorf22]

I see that Lord Bob has been added to the bottom of every list on the R rotation. Are we sure this is a good idea? They will basically be up for every target at once. My suggestion would be to move them down a few spots on a few and up on a few.

[Erati]

I see that Lord Bob has been added to the bottom of every list on the R rotation. Are we sure this is a good idea? They will basically be up for every target at once. My suggestion would be to move them down a few spots on a few and up on a few.

the way the tiers of mobs are rotating they should not have anything major in terms of schedule problems

if they get to a repop day where they are up for 3 targets then they move down 1 spot and someone else moves up


its gonna b several weeks before their first target comes up, lets see if they can repair some burned bridges

[Yaolin]

We had initially agreed that this is how it would work when a guild joined the rotation after Class R rotation was created. If you push them ahead on a few dragons then you will be pushing others back.

AG is not at the bottom of any of the 7 day spawns currently so we would not be affected if LB was bumped up a spot or two. So I don't plan to have any influence here.

Best bet for LB is that some of the guilds at the bottom of each rotation would allow them to jump ahead of them in the rotation for a particular spawn. Allowing each guild to individually make this choice seems to be the fair way to go.

Guilds might want to do this so they can avoid having 3 or more mobs assigned to them during a repop, but obviously that can just be worked out when the time comes. **Erati just stated this**

[Hyjal]

Hello all,

Recently Dojo joined the rotation and spoke to all other Tier R guilds regarding the matter. At the end of the discussion we were added to the Google spreadsheet with all the timers, and rotations. To my surprise, Dojo was on the bottom of every list and now I'm being told this is NON-NEGOTIABLE (per chest), even though we had zero prior knowledge to this.

Currently as it stands Dojo will not see a target for 3+ months. Also we are not permitted to enter sky (per chest). So basically my guild is being told to do "nothing" for 3 months or go back to FTE if we cannot handle it.

We are hoping to come to a reasonable decision on this. Thanks!

[Hyjal]

I feel the reasonable solution here would be if Dojo were permitted to move up a slot on each rotated target (like other smaller guilds have been able to do). As it stands, each guild basically has a mob to fight every repop (besides us) We just want in the fun too. As it currently stands, all guilds are spread out evenly across the board (so guilds wont have 8 targets up on the same day). This seems very reasonable, but an accommodation that cannot be made for Dojo? I really would prefer to come to a reasonable solution to this issue.


an example of this would be...

being #8 on trakanon.
#7 VS
#6 SEV
#5 Tal
#4 Naggy, etc etc etc


As it stands right now we are #8 on everything and will certainly be a guild killer. On top of all this issue we have "agreed" to not interfer with plane of sky whatsoever until a time slot opens (which could be months) We feel we are being very reasonable here. We have totally changed the dynamic of our guild for this, and are a bit surprised why we cannot speak to someone reasonable in return.

[arsenalpow]

I never said you couldn't go into sky, I'll post our conversation if you'd like so everyone can see, I always keep my logs on.

You were out at the bottom of the class R list just like every guild that joined late like supremacy and indignation. They're now higher up on the list because they've been in the rotation for almost a month. With 3-4 normal spawn cycles and 2-3 GM repops it's moved everyone up on the list.

You're asking for special treatment that wasn't given to any other guild.

[Hyjal]

Until this issue is resolved Dojo is back to being an FTE guild.

We were not told we were on the bottom of the rotation until AFTER. So post your logs.

All im asking for is fair treatment. How does it make ANY sense to lock us out of every target for almost half a year?




Forget logs, I take screenshots. And im not sure why we would be going at each other like this again. Were on the same team remember?

[arsenalpow]

I heard about Dolj leapfrogging a PUG raid in fear yesterday that was comprised of mostly Class R guilds. I had previously asked Krimes (a different Dolj officer) about it and was encouraged to speak to Hyjal. I was only in vent but received notice that hyjal was looking to speak to me. Here was the conversation that followed.

on top of the stupid fear thing earlier here's my convo with hyjal about him being unhappy about dolj being at the bottom of the rotation

[Sun Feb 09 19:49:51 2014] You told hyjal, 'so why don't you explain what happened in fear yesterday'
[Sun Feb 09 19:51:04 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'thats not what im interested in talking about. have no idea about some fear clear'
[Sun Feb 09 19:51:13 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'need to talk about the rotation '
[Sun Feb 09 19:51:37 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'i havent been on since thursday night pretty much'
[Sun Feb 09 19:51:45 2014] You told Hyjal, 'i dont have any intention of talking about that, i want to talk about what happened in fear yesterday'
[Sun Feb 09 19:51:47 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'did some stuff with the gf, etc.'
[Sun Feb 09 19:51:56 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'if your not going to talk about the rotation'
[Sun Feb 09 19:52:02 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'then we have an issue '
[Sun Feb 09 19:52:09 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'were on the bottom of every list atm'
[Sun Feb 09 19:52:11 2014] Turino says out of character, 'any groups looking for more?'
[Sun Feb 09 19:52:18 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'we wont see a target for 3 months, and we cannot enter sky'
[Sun Feb 09 19:52:43 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'was hoping to talk to someone who can be reasonable. was hopign that man was you.'
[Sun Feb 09 19:52:45 2014] You told Hyjal, 'and you have an issuse with that? every otherguild that entered the rotation stared out at the end as well, supremacy, indig, etc'
[Sun Feb 09 19:52:51 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'no they didnt'
[Sun Feb 09 19:52:55 2014] You told Hyjal, 'yes they did'
[Sun Feb 09 19:52:56 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'indignation is split across the board'
[Sun Feb 09 19:52:59 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'so is supremacy'
[Sun Feb 09 19:53:07 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'your telling me they been ready since the start of this?'
[Sun Feb 09 19:53:10 2014] You told Hyjal, 'because they've been in the rotation longer than you'
[Sun Feb 09 19:53:14 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'they are ready for a mob this week, next week, and so fourth'
[Sun Feb 09 19:53:18 2014] You told Hyjal, '2-3 weeks before you'
[Sun Feb 09 19:53:40 2014] You told Hyjal, 'look, we aren't giving you any special considerations, you're being treated just like every other guild'
[Sun Feb 09 19:53:44 2014] You told Hyjal, 'im sorry you don't like that'
[Sun Feb 09 19:53:56 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'im going to take this to RNF or raid discussion i guess'
[Sun Feb 09 19:54:00 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'if you dont want ot talk about this'
[Sun Feb 09 19:54:10 2014] You told Hyjal, 'good luck with that man'
[Sun Feb 09 19:54:49 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'you really want to cause problems i can tell'
[Sun Feb 09 19:55:24 2014] You told Hyjal, 'no you idiot, i want this to work out equitably for everyone, but you fucking don't give a shit about that, you come in and fucking demand everything, this has been your MO since day fucking 1, now get in line with the rest of class R or don't, i don't give a shit either way.'
[Sun Feb 09 19:55:56 2014] You told Hyjal, 'additionally you want, but you never give, just look at yesterday when you shit all over a PUG raid in fear for wraith'
[Sun Feb 09 19:56:03 2014] You told Hyjal, 'thats what i wanted to speak to you about'
[Sun Feb 09 19:56:42 2014] You told Hyjal, 'because it seems you have no idea what compromise and fair play is, and if you aren't going to conduct yourself as a class R guild the rest of the class R leadership will get together and decide what to do about it'

Nowhere in the conversation did I say you couldn't go to sky. You were receiving the same treatment that every other guild received and you didn't like that. Sorry for being annoyed with the conversation but it's like sometimes you pretend like we're persecuting you.

[Hyjal]

Any reasonable person can see that the person being hostile in that conversation is you. I've been trying to contact a Bregan officer to discuss this issue for two days. I simply stated I have no idea about some fear clear.

I'm not sure how a 3 man fear clear could cause you to tell dojo to skrew off unanimously. Unless you do infact speak for everyone.

We want to talk. We want to work this out. Can anyone else read between the lines please?

[arsenalpow]

Any reasonable person can see that the person being hostile in that conversation is you. I've been trying to contact a Bregan officer to discuss this issue for two days. I simply stated I have no idea about some fear clear.

I'm not sure how a 3 man fear clear could cause you to tell dojo to skrew off unanimously. Unless you do infact speak for everyone.

We want to talk. We want to work this out. Can anyone else read between the lines please?

[Sun Feb 09 19:51:37 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'i havent been on since thursday night pretty much'

2 days eh? You talked to people while being in our vent on Thursday night. You haven't been around since. You said that yourself.

You are being treated just like every other class R guild. That's how it works.

[Sadad]

........I've been trying to contact a Bregan officer to discuss this issue for two days..........

[Sun Feb 09 19:51:37 2014] Hyjal tells you, 'i havent been on since thursday night pretty much'

Come on.

You are being treated the exact same as everyone else who joined the rotation late. It would be unfair to give you special treatment.

OOPS
Hivemind on that - my bad. The other guilds on the rotation are waiting their turn - why do you think you should be given preferential treatment over Indignation and Supremacy?

[Hyjal]

I was on Thursday night to discuss rotation with you guys. Have I logged in since then? Yes. Have I contacted Bregan officers? Yes I have. Have any of them spoke to me like a reasonable human being? No.

[Hyjal]

" I haven't been on since Thursday night pretty much ".

Aside from playing message ping pong with your officers.

[jpetrick]

Fuck this guild and everyone in it. I knew they would pull some shit like this. They only wanted to see the spreadsheet so they can now target the smaller guilds like mine to snipe targets.

[Ella`Ella]

Thread needs to be moved to RnF. It is undermining the efforts of civility in this sub-forum.

[getsome]

Before this gets moved, since you got see the "timers" can you toss out the kill time of vox.

thanks in advance.

[arsenalpow]

Hyjal came into BDA vent for a brief chat. The TLDR is that he will take his guild and get out of class R and go back to FTEing targets.

[Hyjal]

We want a fair shake at this. We would rather be in the rotation, but you guys are hellbent on destroying us as a guild. We want to come to an agreement. 100%. But an agreement takes both sides compromising. None of which has been done on your side.

Our main concern is fairness. And Chest, you say we can enter sky, but only by your schedule. So is 5am sky raid okay with you?

Just like Dojo not getting a target for 3+ months is okay too.

This is a video game guys, remember that.

[quido]

How is cutting fair? You show up to the party late, rightly get put at the back of the line, and you think it's justified to skip ahead because your guild will die otherwise?

Absurd

You can still steamroll people for the planes, dude.

[sanluen]

We want a fair shake at this. We would rather be in the rotation, but you guys are hellbent on destroying us as a guild. We want to come to an agreement. 100%. But an agreement takes both sides compromising. None of which has been done on your side.

Our main concern is fairness. And Chest, you say we can enter sky, but only by your schedule. So is 5am sky raid okay with you?

Just like Dojo not getting a target for 3+ months is okay too.

This is a video game guys, remember that.


You were invited to join the rotation when we set it up. You opted not to. Now you want in, and we added you on, in full agreement to the terms set out when we started the rotation. The same way that other guilds were added before you.

The only person you have to blame for being at the bottom of the list is yourself, for not joining in the beginning.

Also, you were clearly told on Thursday how joining the rotation would work, and you watched as we added you to the list then. Not sure why you did not bring up the issue while all the guilds were present (though I doubt anyone would have responded differently).


As for sky, that should go to a relevant thread. That deals with both C and R guilds and is fully separate from the rotation we have working between the R guilds.

[Jesseca]

As it stands right now we are #8 on everything and will certainly be a guild killer. On top of all this issue we have "agreed" to not interfer with plane of sky whatsoever until a time slot opens (which could be months) We feel we are being very reasonable here. We have totally changed the dynamic of our guild for this, and are a bit surprised why we cannot speak to someone reasonable in return.

There are still FFA mobs to go after. No rotation for those.

[Striiker]

Doljo has been pretty sketch fro the start of this all. I called it right in my earlier post (words are wind.. convince me through actions). Stuff Hyjal was saying was not adding up in the Vent discussion I was present at when we welcomed them and added them to the rotation (made me very doubtful that their intentions were legitimate). We, the Class-R guilds were generally happy to see them finally making motions to be good citizens on the server. We added them to the bottom of each list during the meeting with full knowledge and acknowledgement from Hyjal. We explained why at the time and there was no disagreement or complaining etc. Now he comes to the Raid forum to have a shit fit over it all. Not clear on why he's trying to pin this on Chest (Chest was not present when we had the meeting). Pin it on me, or any other guild leader of R-Class guilds. All guilds in the R-Class list are in 100% full agreement that those who come late, new guilds, etc. start at the bottom. This is how it was defined from the start. The re-pop rate is reasonable and so guilds will rotate through and get their shot eventually.

Again, not sure why, if you wish to really compete, that you just don't go kill a C-Class mob to get assigned to a tier which prides itself on competition. Perhaps focus on FFA targets only. Screwing in R-Class targets really just makes you look bad on the server to everyone.

[Troubled]

We want a fair shake at this. We would rather be in the rotation, but you guys are hellbent on destroying us as a guild. We want to come to an agreement. 100%. But an agreement takes both sides compromising. None of which has been done on your side.

Our main concern is fairness. And Chest, you say we can enter sky, but only by your schedule. So is 5am sky raid okay with you?

Just like Dojo not getting a target for 3+ months is okay too.

This is a video game guys, remember that.

I did most of the talking with you and made it known you would be added to the end of all lists as is what we agreed on when most of R came together to discuss the rotation. Indignation was not added late. They were added to mobs from the start. Supremacy joined late and was added to the last slot for every mob they wanted to take a shot at.

No one is hell bent on destroying your guild and you indicated that you were happy with where our talk went. At any time, you could have voiced your concern with being added to the end of the lists. It wouldn't have changed anything, but you could have disputed it then and there.

Sky is a matter where all guilds have a say and you need to be persistent in the designated discussion thread to find a decent time slot.

Dojo is removed from the rotation as per your wish to remain an R FTE guild. Sorry to hear it. Best of luck to Dojo in their ambitions.

[Powtle]

You were invited to join the rotation when we set it up. You opted not to. Now you want in, and we added you on, in full agreement to the terms set out when we started the rotation. The same way that other guilds were added before you.

The only person you have to blame for being at the bottom of the list is yourself, for not joining in the beginning.
This!
Was just going to post about the same thing :)

Anyway, the Sky rotation is an other issue.
But please stop screwing up Indignation on Mondays.
I'm sure you can find an agreement with others guilds to raid lower islands when they raid upper ones.

[Kope]

I did most of the talking with you and made it known you would be added to the end of all lists as is what we agreed on when most of R came together to discuss the rotation. Indignation was not added late. They were added to mobs from the start. Supremacy joined late and was added to the last slot for every mob they wanted to take a shot at.

No one is hell bent on destroying your guild and you indicated that you were happy with where our talk went. At any time, you could have voiced your concern with being added to the end of the lists. It wouldn't have changed anything, but you could have disputed it then and there.

Sky is a matter where all guilds have a say and you need to be persistent in the designated discussion thread to find a decent time slot.

I pretty much agree with everything here.

Hyjal you were totally fine with the rotation and being at the bottom of the list when we were talking in vent and setting you up, how did things change for you so quickly?

You were told (at least twice from what I can remember) that the sky rotation was another beast entirely and not dependent on only class R so we couldn't negotiate that directly with you at that time but would be happy to work with the other guilds as well as yourself to see what we could do. You knew the sky deal as well, and now this?

All I can really say is I'm disappointed but I wish you well.

[rafaone]

Well, what can I say. So at first instance, you decide to stay out of the rotations (just like you posted in P1999 main forum), now after 4 weeks and not being able to down any mobs, you come here wanting to enter the rotation.

The people are nice and let you enter, and also waste a good chunk of their time talking on vent etc. Now you say you're at the bottom of every list, well, that was the exact same treatment every other guild has, we not trying to boycott your guild or something like that. What did you expect when joining the rotation late?

Heck, I didn't even see an apologize for all the leapfrogging you tried to do. About Sky, that should be discussed in other thread, not here.

Dissapointed too when reading all this.

[Briac]

Hyjal, i know a lot of people here seem to have spoken to you, spent time setting this up and welcoming you to the Rotation, Europa were among them.

However I really do not understand why a new member of the Rotation feels they should be put anywhere else then at the bottom of each list, surely that is fair? You also mention that it will be 3 months before you get a shot at anything, its not that bad, honestly i tanked when i rolled for Europa, we were near the bottom on most mobs, its been a month and were getting targets.

In addition the use of blackout windows etc have meant guilds are getting shots at mobs before their time.

I think really you need to make a choice, go C or go R. If its R, then the faster you get on it, the faster it will come round. Meanwhile go after FFA spawns?

Regarding Sky, lots of guilds have moved their schedule round in the past to accommodate guilds. Europa found it hard getting into the rotation at first, we made mistakes, but in the end communication helped us get our slot. Im sure if you decide to join the R community and live up to it, you too will get a slot.

But please spare us the drama, we have partners for that.

[Jesseca]

But please spare us the drama, we have partners for that.

Well said!

[Splorf22]

I just don't see how anyone can enjoy the kind of chain CR that went down this evening in Hate.

[Powtle]

Just like Dojo not getting a target for 3+ months is okay too.
Actually it would be 2 months for the 3days targets.
And there are still FFA targets each week.

[Briac]

As Powtle and others have pointed out, if you start at the bottom, just like the rest who have joined late, you won’t have to wait 3-5 months for a target. 3 Day spawn targets will come around much faster. On top of that, you keep mentioning you wish to compete for targets, why not start honing your skills and focus on FFA targets while you wait...

There are options open to you, but the longer you wait, the longer you continue to go against the majority of the community, the less chance you have of anything positive.

Sticking with a shitty plan doesn’t make it any less shitty.

See some sense, make a positive gesture, perhaps consider declaring stopping raiding R targets for 1-2 weeks to discuss with the R community to sort out this mess before the majority to decide not to have anything to do with you, and we know how that will turn out.

Honestly I think it may be too late now, I hope not, but after what I read about occurring last night, way to go with stirring the drama some more rather than calming it down.

[Splorf22]

Actually it would be 2 months for the 3days targets.
And there are still FFA targets each week.

In addition, when you did get the 7 day targets, you'd get like 6 kills over two weeks. Anyway, I think it's obvious that Hyjal and Doljo* just wanted a look at the list so they could go after the smaller guilds. Obviously they forgot that we are a zerg guild now!