Question about Rogue DPS

[shams]

Hey all,

Been thinking about creating a rogue to level up when I feel like grouping and I was wondering what about them contributes most to their DPS. Is it backstab or their weapons on auto attack? From casually looking around when I'm in EC I've noticed that a lot of their weapons have great ratios. Also, if I did go Rogue (haha)... what order should I prioritize starting stats and then stats on gear as well?

Thanks!

[joppykid]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Rogue

I would follow the recommended 25 Stamina and 5 Strength on here. Strength is very easy to raise with gear. If you make a dwarf or barb it will be even easier. Rogues low delay weapons and backstab is why they are valuable to groups and always bring good dps. They are also useful for certain dungeons by picking locks and sneaking around.

[shams]

Thanks, I'll check out the link. So you think their high DPS is a combination of the two (good dmg/dly ratios and backstab)? Sorry if this sounds dumb, I played EQ2 for a little bit and it was all about combat arts, sorta like backstab.

[shams]

Thought of another question which I'll just post here as opposed to making another thread: What about DEX and AGI for rogues, is it important for proc'ing or avoiding hits, or is sta and str the only two things I need to worry about. And going on that train of logic, should I stick to a dwarf or barb for min/maxing purposes? As always, thanks for the info :)

[Tecmos Deception]

Autoattacks are a lot more damage than backstabs, especially if you aren't 55 yet (when you start double backstabbing ~40% of the time). Normally melee want the best ratio possible, and rogues are no exception overall. You might want to err on the side of higher damage when in doubt.

For example: 10/20 trakanon tooth or 12/25 rapier of orrin? Go with the higher damage even though the ratio isn't quite as good.


Agility has a VERY minimal impact on how tough you are when you are getting attacked. Dex helps you proc (mainhands will proc up to twice per minute on average at 255 dex, offhands proc at half that rate), but as a rogue you kind of DON'T want procs because they usually mean more aggro than they are worth. The more you have aggro the more the healer has to work and the less damage you will be doing.

Any rogue race can max strength (with some buffs) with gear you can buy in EC, so you don't really need to be too concerned with a gnome's low strength if you like gnomes otherwise. If you don't have the money for like, a ragebringer + 30k in random other gears though you might be a bit short on strength as a weak race. You'll also end up taking off some of your strength gear in favor of resists/hp if you do raiding eventually.

[Swish]

Best melee dps in the business, and if you hate pulling its another good reason to roll one over a monk :p I kinda wish I'd made mine a monk despite the server already having over 9000 of them :)

[webrunner5]

It is pretty much due to backstab. Their weapons have pretty good ratios but not really a lot of Damage. Not like some 40/50 2hander a warrior can wield.

The main stat that Rogues need is Strength. So put 15 of 30 into strength and like 15 into stamina. And there gear should be mostly Strength based also. The more strength they have the higher their Backstab damage gets. Great class, but pretty much have to group all the time.

[Swish]

Autoattacks are a lot more damage than backstabs, especially if you aren't 55 yet (when you start double backstabbing ~40% of the time). Normally melee want the best ratio possible, and rogues are no exception overall. You might want to err on the side of higher damage when in doubt.

For example: 10/20 trakanon tooth or 12/25 rapier of orrin (or 13/25 serpent's tooth)? Go with the higher damage even though the ratio isn't quite as good.


Agility has a VERY minimal impact on how tough you are when you are getting attacked. Dex helps you proc (mainhands will proc up to twice per minute on average at 255 dex, offhands proc at half that rate), but as a rogue you kind of DON'T want procs because they usually mean more aggro than they are worth. The more you have aggro the more the healer has to work and the less damage you will be doing.

...and yarr! a rapier of oriin is a worthwhile investment, best rogue wep pre-epic I believe :)

[shams]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Rogue

I would follow the recommended 25 Stamina and 5 Strength on here. Strength is very easy to raise with gear. If you make a dwarf or barb it will be even easier.

Would you all agree with this or should more points be given to str? I'm just nitpicking :)

[webrunner5]

Would you all agree with this or should more points be given to str? I'm just nitpicking :)

I would go with the Strength over Stam. A Rogue can never have too much strength. They are usually the ones that loot also for the group.

[Tecmos Deception]

25 stam is the general consensus, yeah, ESPECIALLY if you're a barb or dwarf.

There's that 13/25 drop off yael too, Swish.

And I think webrunner is wrong. Even at 55+ with a ragebringer (and sebilite croaking dirk offhand), my rogue got ~2/3 of her damage from autoattacks. And that number will only be higher at lower levels or with weaker mainhands probably. In Velious too, most rogues will be seeing offhand upgrades but no upgrade for ragebringer; and even rogues who upgrade from ragebringer are STILL only at a 15-damage mainhand (at the highest), but with lower delay so more damage from autoattacks.

[Erati]

I have heard many rogues talking about DEX helping with their double backstab 'procs'

anyone confirm or deny they notice a double backstab occurring more when you have higher dex?

[Tecmos Deception]

Well, with ~100 dex on my barb rogue I always had right around 40% double backstabs.

[Swish]

Would you all agree with this or should more points be given to str? I'm just nitpicking :)

Unless you're rolling a dorf or barb I'd take at least 20 in STR, you can always switch out stuff later if you hit the cap when fully buffed.

[shams]

I'm thinking a barb would be a good choice for a rogue, good starting str and sta, plus bash for a little bit of added utility in groups vs casters.

[Rhambuk]

And I think webrunner is wrong. Even at 55+ with a ragebringer (and sebilite croaking dirk offhand), my rogue got ~2/3 of her damage from autoattacks.

on live backstab was supposed to be 40% of a rogues total dps. this seems pretty accurate.

[Shiftin]

the two rites of passage for a rogue are sneaking down into LGUK to loot a rotting guise of the deceiver when you're <20, and doing the burning rapier quest. These were my 2 favorite non-raid experiences on the server as a rogue.

Get any 10 damage piercer for your mainhand until you can afford the rapier of oriin. burning rapier is a solid offhand until you can pick up something like a sebilite croaking dirk.

[Byrjun]

Don't buy an SCD before your epic. A Crystalline Short Sword will last you in the offhand until 60 and that's about 10% of the cost of an SCD.

[Shiftin]

but it's ugly.

[Nirgon]

roll barb

max str

then max sta

thats it

[Tiggles]

At lvl 60 I'd say it's a 60/40 split between autoattack damage and backstabs so you always want to go with the better ratio over big slow backstabbers. Good news the Epic is super easy and you can start working on it from a low level (don't buy it, quest it)

Don't listen to the people here talking about putting stats into strength dump as much stats into stamina as you can, if you are not a barbarian put any extra into str.

Str caps for melee are a joke in Kunark and you can your strength around the 200 mark you will be maxed out in a single shaman buff everything over is wasted if you ever plan on raiding or grouping with str buff classes.

Dex does NOT help with backstabs
Dex does NOT help with backstabs
Dex does NOT help with backstabs
Dex does NOT help with backstabs
Dex does NOT help with backstabs
Dex does NOT help with backstabs
Dex does NOT help with backstabs
Dex does NOT help with backstabs
Dex does NOT help with backstabs
Dex does NOT help with backstabs

Edit: and for Christ sakes when you get to 50+ do plane of sky with a guild, every week just find a day you can raid of sky and find join the guild that raids it. Plane of sky quest drops are some of the best gear for a rogue in Kunark and it will drastically improve your survivability and DPS.

[shams]

roll barb

max str

then max sta

thats it

I like it.

[shams]

Actually I just read Tiggles' post. Now I'm distraught :/

[joejccva71]

roll barb

max str

then max sta

thats it

I rolled a dwarf rogue.

Bad?

[Swish]

I rolled a dwarf rogue.

Bad?

nah they're prolly 2nd in the league table (ahead of halflings for stats imo if not the same xp bonus)

[Droog007]

I'm thinking a barb would be a good choice for a rogue, good starting str and sta, plus bash for a little bit of added utility in groups vs casters.

Bear in mind that slam and backstab are on the same cooldown, and backstab seems to have a decent chance at interrupting spellcasts as well.

When you really need a mob to not get a spell off, put away your epeen for 20 seconds and get on the same side as the tank.

Barbs can throw boulders however... so they've got that going for them... which is nice [sorta].

[Ravager]

Not going to tell you what to do, but here's some data:

Putting 25 stamina into your rogue now will mean an extra 100hp you can't get anywhere else when you're 60.

High level druids have a 50? str buff. High level shamans have a 70? str buff. (never actually looked at what their str buffs cap at, but that's in the ballpark) You won't be doing a whole lot as a rogue ungrouped, so str buffs are usually available.

It's highly unlikely that you won't get your Ragebringer at some point because of how easy it is to quest. That's +20 str.

So, even if your starting str is only 60 (likely 65 if you put your remaining 5 pts into it, which I'm sure you will) you only have to find 105-125 additional str in gear to cap it. Obviously would be easier with Barb who has 103 base str (only needing 62-82 in gear). That might sound like a lot, but with all the options for str gear, it really isn't and there really is no special need to try to cap str until you're 60 anyway.

As far as DPS goes, the majority of your dps that makes you special is your backstab and your quads. Definitely keep a high damage piercer in your primary, and possibly swapping it out inbetween backstabs if you wanna be like that.

[joppykid]

I'm thinking a barb would be a good choice for a rogue, good starting str and sta, plus bash for a little bit of added utility in groups vs casters.

bash shares cd with backstab im pretty sure so it will usually not be utilized after you ding 10. Could be wrong on that but I think it does.

[baalzy]

Backstab IS what gives rogues their great DPS. Warriors / Monks can get weapon combos that are just as effective as the melee combos of a rogue (monks even better cause of ridic 2hbs). Rangers also have just as good weapon combos (tho a lower cap on melee skills, for now). So pure melee damage in an ideal situation to deal DPS is going to be pretty even between Rogue/Warrior/Monk. It's the 'extra' things they can do which changes their ranking in the DPS charts. Flying Kick for Monk is ultimately what gives them the advantage over a Warrior, because it vastly out damages kick. Backstab is what ultimately gives the Rogue an advantage over a Monk. For a ranger they'd need to be using their DoTs/Nukes/Bow in a smart manner in order to out damage a warrior (at least until velious lands and they get Call of Fire to give them extra DD procs, assuming they don't pull agro and die).

So, that said, focusing on maxing out your backstabs is what will give the best DPS and from the sounds of that the only thing which will boost your backstab damage is having a higher base DMG weapon. If you can't get your hands on a ragefire then go with a rapier of orin or a Serpent's Tooth.

You could also go with a 1hb or 1hs in your main hand and hot swap in an Efreeti War spear (15/40) or Crystalline spear (13/30) to backstab with. I'm not entirely sure how the delay on them affects backstab though.

Of course, as others have said, by the time you're high enough level for anyone to notice the difference you should have a ragebringer.

[Juevento]

Don't listen to the str people. You want stamina as a rogue. Str stuff is cheap and once you get over 200 the benefit of extra strength is minimal.

In addition to getting the best ratio weapons, I would also recommend selecting the lower delay of those good ratio weapons. I've noticed a pretty demonstrable difference in DPS with similar ratio weapons having different delays but different delays (ie SCD does more dmg than EON).

Most of all have fun. Rogue is by far my favorite class. They can excel is almost all melee aspects of the game aside from tanking.

[Swish]

Good rogues don't take much damage, and lets be honest 100hp is nothing late game...if something wants to swing at you for big damage you should already have evaded or stopped attacking prior to that.

I see both sides but I believe in my STR/ATK stat more than anything.

[shams]

Swish, wtf is going on in your sig? Also, thanks all of the info :)

What is the str cap at actually? I mean at what point does extra strength stop making any difference? (Is it literally no difference once you hit the cap?)

[Swish]

You tell me whats going on :p

255 is the cap, get to 185ish and a 49 shaman str buff should do the rest for raids etc.

[drktmplr12]

When you really need a mob to not get a spell off, put away your epeen for 20 seconds and get on the same side as the tank.
[sorta].

Is this generally believed as true, or is there a source?

[Ravager]

Good rogues don't take much damage, and lets be honest 100hp is nothing late game...if something wants to swing at you for big damage you should already have evaded or stopped attacking prior to that.

I see both sides but I believe in my STR/ATK stat more than anything.

Any rogue will eat an AE or two at sometime. That extra 100hp could be the difference of dropping into low hp aggro and getting owned, or not dropping into low hp aggro and getting healed. Not to mention, when a mob turns on a rogue who has low hp aggro, overall dps of the raid drops in that moment. Seconds count.

[drktmplr12]

Swish, wtf is going on in your sig? Also, thanks all of the info
Looks like a Chinese gentlemen getting electrocuted to me, played in reverse.

[Ciroco]

In addition to getting the best ratio weapons, I would also recommend selecting the lower delay of those good ratio weapons. I've noticed a pretty demonstrable difference in DPS with similar ratio weapons having different delays but different delays (ie SCD does more dmg than EON).

In offhand? I don't think that's right.

[Swish]

If its a raid you'll have your resist gear on (hopefully), and if it isnt theres no harm in swapping your rings out for two +55hp rings if you feel vulnerable.

I see what you're saying :)

[Swish]

Looks like a Chinese gentlemen getting electrocuted to me, played in reverse.

Spot on :)

http://img.reversegif.com/69811.gif


http://i.imgur.com/fNTb0HC.gif

[shams]

Did that guy just reach up and touch a telephone pole wire and that's a gif of it played in reverse? That or you captured Rayden on film.

[baalzy]

In offhand? I don't think that's right.

In off hand ratio is all the matters. No damage bonus in the off hand.

In the main hand for non-backstab attacks, a .5 ratio weapon with 30 delay will be noticably outperformed by a .5 ratio weapon with 20 delay due to the static damage bonus.

[Shiftin]

There are certain resist sets where, with BIS max resist gear, I drop below 255 STR without a shaman w/ PE hammer around. That doesn't happen much anymore because VP, but if you REALLY want to look at it in context of raids, 100 HP is far less important that maintaining 255 STR in your resist gear, so let's not pretend that this is a materially 1 sided decision.

[Xelris]

If you're distributing stats for the long term...

Kunark Era raiding:
Better off pumping 25 points into STR and 5 into STA, regardless of race. The more STR you get from single large sources on gear (Ragebringer, TBB, Gauntlets of Potence, etc) means the more resists you can stack without penalties. Being a barb means you've got that much less STR to worry about and can stack that much more resist gear without compromising, although really there is no "wrong" race.

Velious Era raiding:
Better off pumping 25 points into STA and 5 into STR because of how much stat gear there is which just so happens to carry both STR and resists. STA is the only stat that is hard to max out for most classes.

Race choice becomes tougher in velious as gnomes, thought to be the weakest race for this class, get some seriously (http://wiki.project1999.com/Clockwork_Watchman_Vambraces) awesome (http://wiki.project1999.com/Clockwork_Watchman_Greaves) shit (http://wiki.project1999.com/Clockwork_Watchman_Greaves) to contend with high barbarian/dwarven base stats and the halfling xp bonus. Or just go DE if you like looking swag all the time.

(edit) Finally, on the subject of autoattack damage, rogues should be doing more on auto-attack than most other classes because they are on a higher damage table, which on live looked like this during Kunark era:

Tier 1 (highest)
Rogue
Monk
Tier 2 (high)
Warrior
Ranger
Tier 3 (Mid)
Shadowknight
Paladin
Bard
Tier 4 (Low)
Shaman
Cleric
Dru
Tier 5 (Hahahaha)
Wiz/Enc/Mag/Nec

What this means is that a rogue with a 10/20 piercer at the same skill level as a warrior with a 10/20 piercer will do more auto-attack damage than the warrior, completely disregarding "bonus" hits like backstab and kick. It also means a rogue still does significant dps from the front, it's just not nearly as optimal as the rear. Also, that table takes a big kick from 59 to 60 for the top tier, though I'm unsure how much.

I believe during Velious or Luclin rangers were bumped up to Tier 1 tables (likely Velious), in addition to fixing their max skills.

[Tiggles]

As a halfling rogue with 5 points but into strength I have slotted BiS resist gear for every slot and I still "go over" 255 strength with a single shaman buff.

There is no better way to say that Stamina is the only stat that matters for a rogue when doing character creation.


A shaman gives +70 str not including getting Avatar or Primal Essence in a raid. Resists and HP are the only things that matter while raiding because you'll always have 255 str.

That being said I picked Halflings because they are the best because there hobbits it would be even easier as a dorf or barb.

[Tecmos Deception]

<----- mad that he is put below the level of wis casters for autoattack damage.

[Droog007]

In off hand ratio is all the matters. No damage bonus in the off hand.

In the main hand for non-backstab attacks, a .5 ratio weapon with 30 delay will be noticably outperformed by a .5 ratio weapon with 20 delay due to the static damage bonus.

Math is hard, but I'm guessing that it's possible for offhand delay to make a difference between 2 weapons with very similar ratios because of damage increments, rounding ... something.

[webrunner5]

Looks like a Chinese gentlemen getting electrocuted to me, played in reverse.

There are some people that are almost immune to getting electrocuted. I have a friend who can unscrew a lightbulb and stick his finger in it and not even feel a shock.

Years ago when I was starting as a mechanic the boss of the shop I worked at could lay his arms across the sparkplugs on a flathead 6 cylinder engine and kill it.

Some people can't feel shit I guess.