Experience distribution and penalties, does the wiki need an update?

[Shaakglith12194]

I've seen people say things like "hybrid exp penalty is shared with the group, racial exp penalty does not" and complain about inviting bards or a ranger. According to http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works that's not at all how it works. Has there been some update that has completely changed how experience works in this game? Is experience no longer distributed based on experience totals? That's the only way these kind of ignorant statements could be true. If so, please point me to the patch notes so I can educate myself. People seem to have absolutely no understanding of how experience is distributed and it can be frustrating trying to convince people that their understanding is incorrect when the wiki states 3 times in a row, "Group with people with similar xp totals to you" just to pound the lesson home.

"When the tasty pie is cut into slices for the group, the levels of the various PCs are not consulted (not directly anyway), only the xp totals for the PCs. The game code doesn't care if Bob is a human or an elf, a bard or a monk, level 10 or level 15... the game code only cares what Bob's total xp is." (Quote from the wiki link that I posted)

tl;dr Are people just illiterate or has the way experience works actually been changed?

[quido]

most people are just incompetent - it works like you think

[Swish]

http://www.tikihumor.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/37/2012/12/double-rainbows-what-does-it-mean-300x300.gif

[webrunner5]

most people are just incompetent - it works like you think

Lets not sugarcoat it Quido. :p And yes I do believe he is right also. Worse to be 5 levels down than IKKY SK in group like it states.

[uygi]

I'm so sick and tired of people being fucking stupid about this. I once answered this question in OT and some guy raged at me for 20 minutes. He insisted that I was lying to perpetuate a myth to get my Ogre SK to 60... when I explained that my SK was 60 and geared to the teeth anyways, he insisted I was just bulshitting everyone. Mind you, I was soloing on a 40ish wizard at the time... but I digress...

And people aren't illiterate so much as ignorant. They have this perception that there is a penalty and it's applied to the group and whatever-the-fuck-else they believe, like not looting corpses prevents mobs from respawning, that being out of food makes your invis drop sooner or my favorite that epic drops go to planar minis with release of epics or Velious. They refuse to listen to reason, will take ANY excuse at all to continue believing the myth but dispute even the most irrefutable proof of the truth. That asshole above that raged for 20 min? I told him about Dumesh's guide and he insisted it didn't exist, so I gave him the URL 4 times before he read it, he then insisted that I had fabricated it specifically to dupe him and the rest of the server into letting my toxic hybrid deny them their precious XP. I'm pretty sure he's still in the 30s or 40s; I sure am glad I haven't had a hybrid in that level range since 2011!

There is an excellent, idiot-oriented guide to this on the Wiki (referenced by the OP!), but it is a bit hidden if you don't know where to look. You can read it here (http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works), or here (bolding is not copied from original, but added by me for emphasis):


First, I'll describe a sample party and use a tasty pie analogy to help make the mechanics easier to understand. Then, I'll get more number and formula based for those who want the nuts and bolts.

Think of each mob that gets spawned in EQ as a pie, a very tasty pie. When a PC kills a mob, he gets to eat the pie. When players group together and kill a mob, they have to split the pie. However, through the magic of the group bonus, for each person in the group beyond the first, the pie gets a little bit bigger (2% bigger in fact) before we pull out the knife to divide the slices.

Well, how do we slice the pie? How big will each slice be?

The answer is that we measure all the pie that each player has ever eaten (his total xp). Then we cut the slices in proportions matching those relative values. So, let's say our sample group is a simple trio of Bob the Bard, Chris the Enchanter, and Diane the Druid. Since Bob came into the world of Norrath, he's eaten 150lbs of pie. Chris has had 100lbs of pie, and Diane has also eaten 100lbs of pie. Our sample group has just killed a mob. This mobs' representative pie magically grows to be 4% larger than if a solo player killed him. Then the pie is split with 3/7 of it going to Bob, 2/7 to Chris and 2/7 to Diane. The classes of these characters makes no difference at all. The only thing that determined how big each slice of the pie would be was the net total xp that each of them had earned since character creation.

But what about xp penalties, you say?

They most certainly exist. The penalties change the amount of pie that a PC has to eat to gain each level. Human warriors have to eat 90% of the pie that Human Druids have to eat to level up. Troll Shadow Knights have to eat 68% more pie than Human Druids to level up.

The important and painfully obvious consequence of this is:

A level 30 Human Monk has 20% more total xp than a level 30 human cleric.
A level 50 Ogre Shadowknight has 60% more total xp than a level 50 dwarf cleric.
Or to look at it a different way...
A human monk with 10,000,000xp is level 20.
A halfling warrior with 10,000,000xp is level 22
A troll shadowknight with 10,000,000xp is level 18
If the three characters above where to group together, they would all get equal slices of the pie.

But, But, you didn't say anything about the penalties when you talked about how xp is split!!! why not?

When the tasty pie is cut into slices for the group, the levels of the various PCs are not consulted (not directly anyway), only the xp totals for the PCs. The game code doesn't care if Bob is a human or an elf, a bard or a monk, level 10 or level 15... the game code only cares what Bob's total xp is.

What about zone modifiers?
Zone modifiers shrink or expand the pie before the slices are cut.

What does this all mean?!?

Group with people who have similar xp totals to you
Group with people who have similar xp totals to you
Group with people who have similar xp totals to you

See, it was so important, I had to say it 3 times. Please note what that really means. Race/Class combos with no penalty but who are 6 levels higher than you nerf your xp more than the hybrid who is the same level as you in most cases, especially at levels below 30. In your teens, a player 6 levels higher than you has 300 to 400% of your xp total... obviously much worse than the 140-168% of your total that a equal level hybrid has.

So, final thought...

Group with good players. An equal level group with multiple hybrids generally takes no more than 16% more kills to gain a level that a similarly leveled group that has no hydrids. Good groups kill at least 16% faster than bad groups. So, group with good players regardless of class.

P.S. What ever happened to Dumesh? He was a cool dude.

[Shaakglith12194]

I completely understand your frustration, uygi, and I've heard the "racial exp penalty doesn't apply to group" line so many times that I had to wonder if the way experience works had completely changed. A cleric once joined my group and instantly sent me a tell saying "you're welcome for sharing your exp penalty", as if I was supposed to thank him. Even after politely informing him that according to the wiki, his understanding of experience was misinformed, he repeatedly insisted that he had read the wiki and that it was my understanding that was incorrect. Un-freaking-believable. I don't hate my 68% exp penalty, I hate players who are vocal about their ignorance of exp penalties. These are the same kind of people who, 10 minutes into grouping with me, will rave about how great my class is at getting and holding aggro quickly, while throwing in another line about my exp penalty nerfing their experience. Meanwhile, they don't mind the three iksar monks that are in the group. I never see the ignorance stick waved in their direction, despite having one of the worst exp penalties in the game.

[Swish]

What's great about the forums is they're a big source of knowledge for people... and that misinformation can spread like wildfire :p

Funny how nobody picks up on the iksar monk penalty isn't it?

Min/maxers gonna hate 24/7.

[Unidus]

I say throw us a Velious bone and remove the class/group exp penalties early. :)

[Swish]

I say throw us a Velious bone and remove the class/group exp penalties early. :)

Some people enjoy the challenge of leveling a hybrid... lets not turn it into WoWQuest by removing everything difficult too soon ;)

[myriverse]

So, group with good players regardless of class.
Verily!

[Daldaen]

my favorite that epic drops go to planar minis with release of epics or Velious.
Not sure if serious... Or if Planar revamp 4 months into velious isn't considered in there...

[innocent51]

I don't understand everything, and I group with everyone, stinky, scaled or whatever but:

If grouping a level 10 troll SK "takes" as much xp as a level 13 dwarf warrior than there is a malus for the group since the warrior may perform better because of being higher level.

Right?

[formallydickman]

I don't understand everything, and I group with everyone, stinky, scaled or whatever but:

If grouping a level 10 troll SK "takes" as much xp as a level 13 dwarf warrior than there is a malus for the group since the warrior may perform better because of being higher level.

Right?

Exactly. Unfortunately the hybrid penalty is completely flawed and completely classic.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=241427&postcount=35

[DrKvothe]

Depends on what you expect from your tank. That SK is going to get and hold aggro better with his lvl 9 spells.

Until 51+, it really hardly matters. Even then, exp is going to suck much worse if you a) wipe, b) kill very slowly, c) have players bail and need replacement.

I'll take a competent, well put together group over a theoretically optimal cookie-cutter group every time. I've seen warriors that can't get or maintain aggro because they don't even seem to be trying. Like they think people won't notice they're slightly out of melee range and their weapons aren't moving. I've seen warriors who refuse to put away their 2h weapon when asked by the cc or dps. I've seen warriors come into groups that were functioning perfectly with the previous sk or pally tank, and watch the warrior play poorly or be a dick or whatever and boom, group is done.

Of course I'd prefer a competent, polite warrior over a similarly competent, polite hybrid tank for leveling 55+. Then again, when you're picking up a stranger to join your group, odds are their experience penalty is going to be the smallest part of how they help or hurt your exp gains.

[innocent51]

Exactly. Unfortunately the hybrid penalty is completely flawed and completely classic.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=241427&postcount=35
Well if you start complaining about xp malus you could also go on class balancing, zone levels, interface, quests... I mean, its EverQuest classic, one of the reason we play it is because of all of this right?

If I see an Iksar SK level 60 unable to wear plate with 68% malus xp I'd say : Holy shit that's one dedicated sonofa.

[formallydickman]

Oh I'm not complaining, just informing. Classic EQ is great in part because its not balanced, I totally agree.