How hard is Velious, really?

[bOONDOGGLE]

Recently I was looking at some of the Velious loot and it seemed really, really overpowered.

So, having never played any of the Velious content (I was on classic EQ since pre-kunark, but I was horrible at the game - still am), I brought up the topic in guild chat; basically asking how loot this good will not completely break the balance of the game.

The responses I got were essentially, "Dude, Velious is pretty freaking hard."

Can anyone here elaborate on this? I'm just curious.

[myxomatosii]

"Dude, Velious is pretty freakin' hard."

:cool:

Basically imagine Kunark but with frostbite. Ever tried to game with cold fingers? Exactly.

9/10 monks die pulling Lord Dirigible because they stop to type his name.

Many other problems.

[Norathorr]

Some of the upper end loot is pretty insane, but the raid mobs in Velious are ALOT harder than those in Kunark. Having said that if you bring enough of the right class it will trivialize most things. I think AoW will be a very good test for even the most decked out guilds though.

[Tecmos Deception]

Some of the upper end loot is pretty insane, but the raid mobs in Velious are ALOT harder than those in Kunark. Having said that if you bring enough of the right class it will trivialize most things. I think AoW will be a very good test for even the most decked out guilds though.

I get the impression, looking at Velious gear, that basically the only stuff that is truly jaw-dropping is the stuff from ToV and Sleepers and the quests involving those zones. You aren't going to be tanking kunark bosses on your necro just because you have a drop from velketor or doing 130 DPS on your rogue just because you upgraded your offhand or maxing all your melee stats because you're wearing armor you quested in thurg, etc.

A lot of the pieces of class faction armor are big boosts from current gear, and aren't really far behind drops off vindi or something. But when you look at, like, jewelry gear? Those "OMG EVERY VELIOUS ITEM HAS 25 AC AND 100 HP and 10 ALL RESISTS AND 0 WEIGHT AND IS ALL/ALL" pieces of gear are basically all from the high raids. Weapons seem the same, imo; there are hardly any upgrades from the likes of paladin epic or tranquil staff or ragebringer.

[Byrjun]

there are hardly any upgrades from the likes of paladin epic
Natures Defender (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=1209), which is way easier than the paladin epic (and thats not even that tough).

or tranquil staff

There's the Efreeti Ice Staff (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=25560), but yeah, not quite as good as Tranquil Staff.

or ragebringer.

Yeah, hard to replace Ragebringer. The closest thing was Mrylokar's Dagger of Blood from Vulak. Now, I can't tell you the original stats on this weapon because it has an interesting story. Fires of Heaven posted the item details for this dagger on their website, and apparently people were so appalled at the "insane stats" that Verant ended up nerfing it soon after. So after that almost all raid guilds (FoH, Afterlife, etc.) decide to stop posting stats of new drops. I'm sure this has made Velious development a pain in the ass.

Anyways, what I can find for Mrylokar's Dagger of Blood is a 12/16 ratio, so that would be an offhand weapon and not really a replacement for Ragebringer. I assume that's the post-nerf version so I'd be curious if anyone has found the stats on the version that got nerfed.

Mrylokar's Dagger of Blood eventually (post-Velious I'm quite sure) gets replaced by Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance which is 15/19. I have no idea if that was the original damage/delay on the pre-nerf Dagger of Blood, but it would make it an upgrade for the Ragebringer for at least a week or two before it gets nerfed.

Anyways, I went on a bit of a tangent there, but I did have a point. I see Kunark as the "weapon expansion" and Velious as the "gear expansion." Kunark provided a huge upgrade for all classic weapons, and instantly devalued all the old uber weapons like Short Sword of the Ykesha. Velious doesn't provide quite a huge shift upwards in weapons, but it definitely does so for gear. And having weapons that proc Avatar is pretty sweet.

Edit: There's comments on Mrylokar's Dagger of Vengeance from about a month and a half before Luclin release, so I guess there is eventually a replacement for the Ragebringer.

[Swish]

I think AoW will be a very good test for even the most decked out guilds though.

Too many Donal BPs around, I dunno... :/

[Byrjun]

It'd be a huge mistake to allow Donal's on the server for even a second after Velious launches.

[Fael]

weapons advance a decent amount as well, but certainly its all about the HP and resist gear increases.

Velious is just raid heavy. It really is the first raid centric expansion.

Mob hit points were multiplied by as much as 10 times, and their dmg increased quite a bit as well. You just need a lot of good gear to compete.

That said, a few of us have experimented in WToV and with zlandicar with our current gear sets and have done all that with 6-10 people. I'm interested to see how much harder it is on p99, with all the differences between our code and the emu.


Dolic

[Orruar]

Most Velious content is pretty trivial on a stable server. The hardest part about keeping a tank alive back in 2001 was dealing with the inevitable lag spike + subsequent tank death. This server is far more stable and people have much more practice in maintaining a ch chain. The only real challenge will be fights where ch chains are difficult to maintain due to fear/gflux/etc.

[Tecmos Deception]

That seems like a really good point, Orruar.

[odiecat99]

That seems like a really good point, Orruar.

Very well put

[drktmplr12]

It'd be a huge mistake to allow Donal's on the server for even a second after Velious launches.

please nerf. I would hate to see immediately trivial content

[webrunner5]

weapons advance a decent amount as well, but certainly its all about the HP and resist gear increases.

Velious is just raid heavy. It really is the first raid centric expansion.

Mob hit points were multiplied by as much as 10 times, and their dmg increased quite a bit as well. You just need a lot of good gear to compete.Dolic

What he said. Really hard to solo much in Velious unless you are content to take 10 minutes to kill a normal mob.

Like Raid mobs here have 32k of HP. A lot of Velious raid mobs have 300k HP. But I think it is more fun because mobs don't drop in 45 seconds so you can sort of do what you are SUPPOSE to do class wise in a fight. And pullers life is a little better not having to constantly pull. But EVERYONE will die a lot more trust me. As a Enchanter you had better have a Cleric as your best friend. :D

[Oleris]

I remember that necros become useful due to the longer encounters. Can't wait :D

[diplo]

Some of the upper end loot is pretty insane, but the raid mobs in Velious are ALOT harder than those in Kunark. Having said that if you bring enough of the right class it will trivialize most things. I think AoW will be a very good test for even the most decked out guilds though.

So I guess the 77 ppl who tried to push Drushk and wiped won't be able to touch AoW until there's about the whole server then, amirite? heuheuhueh

[Rogean]

Avatar of War is first and foremost, a test of keeping a warrior alive. If that warrior isn't damn near decked out in velious armor, he will be one rounded by a flurry (and AoW flurries a LOT).

After that it's just a matter of endurance (Cleric Mana) vs dps.

Edit: Oh, and killing before you run out of geared warriors with defensive disc lolol

[Ele]

Recently I was looking at some of the Velious loot and it seemed really, really overpowered.

A lot of stuff in ToV and Kael got upgraded after about 6 months of Velious.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106708


huehuehue
http://i.imgur.com/oBtsci7.jpg

[Daldaen]

Yea Donal BP needs to be nerfed into 1 hit buff blocker mode before Velious releases. Otherwise certain pure melee style fights will be much easier.

What Orruar said is very true. However with Kunark/Velious gear AoW will still be 1 rounding tanks I think. But with the amount of players who use instant clicky aggro and the depth of geared warriors at this point in time, I think getting a new tank up will be much easier than it was back them.

I think raid mobs need simulated LDs though. 2-3 minute long stuns on people randomly throughout the fight to simulate bad connections back in the day. Make the amount of players stunned scale with the people on hate list (worst computer people would regularly crash because of 60+ man raids etc.). To bring the challenge more in line with classic.

[Confit]

You go from 32k HP mobs that hit for 200 and get roflstomped in 30 seconds to mobs that can do 6k+ damage in one round and have 10x to 25x more HP. If I remember right, AoW had somewhere around 800,000 to 900,000 HP.

[Oleris]

Avatar of War is first and foremost, a test of keeping a warrior alive. If that warrior isn't damn near decked out in velious armor, he will be one rounded by a flurry (and AoW flurries a LOT).

After that it's just a matter of endurance (Cleric Mana) vs dps.

Edit: Oh, and killing before you run out of geared warriors with defensive disc lolol

Well, can't wait for you to give us a sample Lord Rogean.

[Swish]

Well, can't wait for you to give us a sample Lord Rogean.

http://i.imgur.com/jWiUqW6.gif

[webrunner5]

I think raid mobs need simulated LDs though. 2-3 minute long stuns on people randomly throughout the fight to simulate bad connections back in the day. Make the amount of players stunned scale with the people on hate list (worst computer people would regularly crash because of 60+ man raids etc.). To bring the challenge more in line with classic.

God, don't give them ideas like that, plz. :eek:

[Orruar]

I don't think donal's bp is all that overpowered in velious. IIRC, they nerfed it to a 30 sec cast immediately when Velious hit. So if you want to maintain a 3 second rot, you need 10 clerics. If you have those 10 clerics using regular CH instead, still on a 3 sec rot, they cast a CH and then med for 20 sec. With a mod rod here and there and a couple necros around, you can maintain a CH chain for long enough to kill most anything.

Also, stuff will be dying faster here than it did back in the day. The fights may be all exactly the same, but the players are not. People are much better at optimizing their DPS now. I mean, I don't recall hardly anyone parsing back in Velious era.

There are 4 things that will make fights challenging, and donal bp does little to address these (and makes number 1 worse actually):
1) fear/gflux messing with ch rot
2) running out of defensive warriors on AoW
3) dps being killed off by ae

[Orruar]

I think raid mobs need simulated LDs though. 2-3 minute long stuns on people randomly throughout the fight to simulate bad connections back in the day. Make the amount of players stunned scale with the people on hate list (worst computer people would regularly crash because of 60+ man raids etc.). To bring the challenge more in line with classic.

Except that one of the hardest things about LD is someone had to notice when others went LD amongst the chaos, which wasn't always easy. The character wouldn't be dropped immediately, but would instead sit there doing nothing for a minute or two. So it would need to not only stun them, but prevent them from typing into chat that they're stunned. And guilds these days use vent, so you'd basically need to block that somehow. Maybe we can ask the P99 resident DDOS'er for his services to DDOS individual players during raid encounters?

[Fysts]

We never used warriors to tank AoW so im not sure that will be an issue. We would charm 6 or 7 giants and use those along with mage, necro, shaman pets and use all ranged dps. This is the way we did it, as we didn't have 10 full super geared warriors. At some ponts we would send a ranger in and have him ws so rogues and monks could jump in and dps, but then once ws was about up they would all back out and let pets continue the tanking.

[Galelor]

I don't think donal's bp is all that overpowered in velious. IIRC, they nerfed it to a 30 sec cast immediately when Velious hit. So if you want to maintain a 3 second rot, you need 10 clerics. If you have those 10 clerics using regular CH instead, still on a 3 sec rot, they cast a CH and then med for 20 sec. With a mod rod here and there and a couple necros around, you can maintain a CH chain for long enough to kill most anything.

Also, stuff will be dying faster here than it did back in the day. The fights may be all exactly the same, but the players are not. People are much better at optimizing their DPS now. I mean, I don't recall hardly anyone parsing back in Velious era.

There are 4 things that will make fights challenging, and donal bp does little to address these (and makes number 1 worse actually):
1) fear/gflux messing with ch rot
2) running out of defensive warriors on AoW
3) dps being killed off by ae

This was my exact thought when reading all the complaints about nerfing donals' bps. Also, I seem to remember using 1 second CH chains during hard Velious stuff (but maybe this was during later expansions.) That is 30 clerics for a bp click ch chain...

[Daldaen]

God, don't give them ideas like that, plz. :eek:

I thought a stun would be superior to a true LD. But I don't think its a horrible idea :P. They don't want Zerg forces because classic connections couldn't handle it, atleast the bad ones couldn't. If only 20 toons don't need to 'LD'. 40 toons sure 'LD' 2-3. 60+ toons 'LD' all over the place.

Limit it to stuff like raid bosses, those listed on wiki raid encounter page. So that Coldain ring wars and trash don't have it happening.

I think it would be a good way to provide a more classic challenge to combat 3-year Kunark and 14 years of knowledge.

[Atmas]

Velious has a lot of encounters which require significant raid forces and take hours to clear to and complete. It's not like Kunark where almost every mob can be roflstomped within 10 minutes of spawning.

Don't get me wrong some items like NoS will quickly plummet in price because there will be a lot of slots with higher baseline for alternatives. However, that draw dropping loot isn't going to be in every slot that quickly.

[Orruar]

There are 4 things that will make fights challenging, and donal bp does little to address these (and makes number 1 worse actually):
1) fear/gflux messing with ch rot
2) running out of defensive warriors on AoW
3) dps being killed off by ae

And the 4th thing that will make fights challenging is retarded people who can't count...

[koros]

Velious will be stomped in record time, I bet everything could be killed on day 1.

Also... most of the LDing issues were completely fixed by Velious.

[Orruar]

Velious will be stomped in record time, I bet everything could be killed on day 1.

Also... most of the LDing issues were completely fixed by Velious.

LD'ing maybe, but lag, not a chance. We were still dealing with trouble keeping CH chains steady through PoP, due to a cleric here or there having random latency problems.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Avatar of War is first and foremost, a test of keeping a warrior alive. If that warrior isn't damn near decked out in velious armor, he will be one rounded by a flurry (and AoW flurries a LOT).

After that it's just a matter of endurance (Cleric Mana) vs dps.

Edit: Oh, and killing before you run out of geared warriors with defensive disc lolol

AoW is a test of -- will Nilbog let us have charmed giants. The world wants to know o_o It's classic, yo.

cuz charmed giants and some donals bps, forget about it.

[chu]

Velious will be stomped in record time, I bet everything could be killed on day 1.

anyone who doubts this is dum
even red will have it clear within an hour of blue's clear with 1/10th the total pop

[drktmplr12]

Alot of people were still using dial up in 2001.

[Daldaen]

Alot of people were still using dial up in 2001.

This.

Also... Day 1... I dunno about that.

Tunare/PoGrowth itself is going to be an enormous time expenditure.
No one will be Friendly with dragons on day one so you can't CotH to Yelinak you have to crawl.
NToV will also take several hours

But I guess if people take the day off work and put in 24 hours of "effort", perhaps.

Outdoor dragons (Wuoshi / Kelorek / Zlandicar--not outside but same challenge--), Lodizal, Vindi, Statue, Dozekar, Velketor and Lord Bob will all die first day no problem.

AoW, NToV, Tunare/PoGrowth, Skyshrine may take a bit longer though.

I will be curious to see how often Tunare dies. Or if she doesn't even have loot , how often PoGrowth does. The alt armies will have a purpose now with different factions. Just rotate them as you become ally from killing the opposite faction so you can just run through cities to targets. While using evils for growth.

Was Vulak's loot table the same before he became a scripted event? I thought it was worse than the awesome 100 HP/Mana stuff he has listed on alla now.

[koros]

This.

Also... Day 1... I dunno about that.

Tunare/PoGrowth itself is going to be an enormous time expenditure.
No one will be Friendly with dragons on day one so you can't CotH to Yelinak you have to crawl.
NToV will also take several hours

But I guess if people take the day off work and put in 24 hours of "effort", perhaps.

Outdoor dragons (Wuoshi / Kelorek / Zlandicar--not outside but same challenge--), Lodizal, Vindi, Statue, Dozekar, Velketor and Lord Bob will all die first day no problem.

AoW, NToV, Tunare/PoGrowth, Skyshrine may take a bit longer though.

I will be curious to see how often Tunare dies. Or if she doesn't even have loot , how often PoGrowth does. The alt armies will have a purpose now with different factions. Just rotate them as you become ally from killing the opposite faction so you can just run through cities to targets. While using evils for growth.

Was Vulak's loot table the same before he became a scripted event? I thought it was worse than the awesome 100 HP/Mana stuff he has listed on alla now.

Vulak's loot was always what it was. A few items might have been upgraded on HP. But there was a bunch of ohhhing and ahhing as new Vulak items were discovered.

[Pint]

Most Velious content is pretty trivial on a stable server. The hardest part about keeping a tank alive back in 2001 was dealing with the inevitable lag spike + subsequent tank death. This server is far more stable and people have much more practice in maintaining a ch chain. The only real challenge will be fights where ch chains are difficult to maintain due to fear/gflux/etc.

i imagine our ddosing friends will be around at velious launch to help with the classic lag experience

[bizzum]

huehuehue
http://i.imgur.com/oBtsci7.jpg

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/hehehehehe_duck.gif

[HeallunRumblebelly]

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/hehehehehe_duck.gif

http://i.imgur.com/wjANVCD.jpg

[Shiftin]

From Tunare:
http://zam.zamimg.com/images/3/c/3cc2ec59c71f25266913c6fc1d7c6c48.png
as another ragebringer replacement.

[Erati]

From Tunare:
http://zam.zamimg.com/images/3/c/3cc2ec59c71f25266913c6fc1d7c6c48.png
as another ragebringer replacement.

yea I don't think anything with a skill mod for backstabbing will be avail to P99's Velious

that screams like one of her upgraded loot pieces after Luclin

( could be wrong so don't crucify me instantly)

[HeallunRumblebelly]

yea I don't think anything with a skill mod for backstabbing will be avail to P99's Velious

that screams like one of her upgraded loot pieces after Luclin

( could be wrong so don't crucify me instantly)

Just the BS mod and rec level. Rest is kay. She had a ton of loot revisions, though.

[Shiftin]

yea I don't think anything with a skill mod for backstabbing will be avail to P99's Velious

that screams like one of her upgraded loot pieces after Luclin

( could be wrong so don't crucify me instantly)

The pic is of the upgraded one because I was lazy. I had to look a little harder but the original is very similar without a backstab mod:

http://www.legacyofsteel.net/home/archives/2002-02-12%5Cmassivethorn_loot.jpg

[pasi]

Posted about it a bunch of times before, but everything is doable day 1.

DPS gains are more than made up for by having more numbers and better knowledge of game mechanics.
Cleric gear doesn't matter much until modrods eat it in Luclin.
Defensive tanks can currently tank everything but AoW - who isn't that much further out of reach with Velious spells (very common unlike Kunark spells) and 1 or 2 upgrades. You only need the gear to not be one rounded as a proper CHeal Chain only allows one round (+Flurry and Ripos) before the tank is fully healed.

The most difficult part of AoW is going to be transitioning from tank 1 to tank 2 as defensive runs out. SoulFires and Aggro clickies help a lot with that. In addition, Kael is a bindable zone so it's not like pulling aggro and dying is a huge deal.

Even if you made him hit for a million, Kael being a bindable zone makes bind rushing and disc tanking (flurry goes through riposte) very possible. Look at how Kerafyrm fell and melee couldn't bind in ST.

PS - I wouldn't constantly post this, but the general opinion seems to be that mobs having high HP makes them difficult. The version of VP that we saw here was more difficult than all but a handful of mobs in Velious.

[Xadion]

stupid 1mil hp brownie

[NextGenesis88]

"Dude, Velious is pretty freakin' hard."

:cool:

Basically imagine Kunark but with frostbite. Ever tried to game with cold fingers? Exactly.

9/10 monks die pulling Lord Dirigible because they stop to type his name.

Many other problems.

Actually, Dirigible is pretty easy and efficient to type. What puller manually types Incoming A Dijekamajorj Get ready for battle! (actually I think that's one of the best words I have ever created) Boondoggle should be proud.

[webrunner5]

Well it might not be TOO bad but a lot of people are going to give up soloing for awhile that's for sure till they get better gear, spells etc. :p Which I personally see as a good thing don't get me wrong.

[Daldaen]

SoulFires and Aggro clickies help a lot with that.

That is another thing that needs to get crushed. SoulFire clicks from non-paladins. So very stupid and should've been nerfed many moons ago. It may just bring more viability to paladins on raids and stop people perma-farming Sir Lucan D'Lere to sell the MQ.

[Galelor]

stupid 1mil hp brownie

No joke, the fight was brutally long

[Pheer]

velious makes me really hard

wait thats what we're talking about right

[odiecat99]

Im with ya.

[Clark]

http://www.legacyofsteel.net/home/archives/2002-02-12%5Cmassivethorn_loot.jpg

uber

[Frieza_Prexus]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the currently bugged AC formula here going to play very strongly into the difficulty of Velious?

IIRC, mob AC played a very important part in determining the usefulness of a wizard over a melee DPS. Weren't some bosses incredibly hard to damage through melee resulting in a ton of 1 point hits and backstabs? With AC as it is, will melee DPS be a lot higher than it should be?

[Buriedpast]

"There is no problem with AC on project1999."

Nilbog or someone else

[Treats]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the currently bugged AC formula here going to play very strongly into the difficulty of Velious?

IIRC, mob AC played a very important part in determining the usefulness of a wizard over a melee DPS. Weren't some bosses incredibly hard to damage through melee resulting in a ton of 1 point hits and backstabs? With AC as it is, will melee DPS be a lot higher than it should be?

Yes.

Needs to be fixed, it would benefit both PC and NPC Armor Class.

PC's will be able to take damage better.

NPC's will also take a significant reduction in damage resulting in longer fights.

[webrunner5]

I don't see AC as broken on levels above 45ish as made out here. Low level yes. But high I think it is pretty close. Now I am basing this off my son and I. He plays a Halfling Warrior and a Ikky Monk. I heal with a Cleric, Druid, Shaman. Shaman mostly when we duo. We both have been playing pretty much non stop since 1999. I started big time early 2000. And we pretty much did the same thing then.

I play healers, he plays melee classes. We have tried every combo on here gear wise you can think of between the Melee's. We have the gear luckily to try it. Now I do realize both the Monk and the Warrior have a big edge with damage mitigation on here. Especially the Monk.

We keep logs once in awhile but we pretty much just see how fast we can knock down a mob or how often I have to heal to determine the end results. The Warrior is level 53, the Monk 55. The Warrior definitely gains by getting hit less with a AC boost gear wise. The Monk I would say a bit less so AC wise but it helps trust me. The problem with testing the Monk is they are so OP on here it is scary. He has the epic and a T-Staff, and getting to the point level wise where fists are coming into there own that it seems no matter what you do they are a f'ing killing machine. With the Ikky re-gen, Fungi, 75% Bandage and Mend sure as hell doesn't hurt having all those in a duo.

I know on live now at level 90 and above which we have several of them, that AC is REALLY important. Who the hell really remembers back to 1999, 2000 what effect AC had. I would suspect pretty much the same we have now. Mainly because until Velious comes out nobody right now has a shit pot of AC yet. Sure more than we had 14 years ago because we where dumb about the game and broke.

So I am convinced that AC does somewhat kick in above 45ish, or let me say matters more above 45, the way I see it. I have a little Warrior and Monk here and I can carry 70 Stones on the Monk and I know the AC drops but truthfully I see no noticeable difference getting hit or DPS dropping. If it does it is minor.

You can bet when Velious comes out to be Tanking well on Raids you better have a full set of Cobalt or Champions to stay alive.

Well that's my 2 cents.

[Buriedpast]

I remember very well indeed, infact its my only real problem with P99.

AC was godly on live, on every class, up to the soft cap. It was the stat you never ever overlooked.

[WizardEQ]

"Dude, Velious is pretty freakin' hard."

:cool:

Basically imagine Kunark but with frostbite. Ever tried to game with cold fingers? Exactly.

9/10 monks die pulling Lord Dirigible because they stop to type his name.

Many other problems.

Why oh why do we have FOUR words in the english language for a blimp?

C'mon guys, you know them!

[Coridan]

well one of them is German really.

[Daldaen]

Blimp, dirigible, zeppelin, ???

[Coridan]

airship

[Daldaen]

Gonna have to veto that one. Airship is too general. The others are specific to the hindenpeter-style floating vessels.

[Ele]

hold on now, we're starting to equate non-rigid airships with semi-rigid and rigid airships.

[Coridan]

Airship was the official term used by the US Navy for vessels like USS Macon. Pilots are still called Captain today because they were considered naval vessels, jus in the air.

[Nirgon]

Some of the upper end loot is pretty insane, but the raid mobs in Velious are ALOT harder than those in Kunark. Having said that if you bring enough of the right class it will trivialize most things. I think AoW will be a very good test for even the most decked out guilds though.

Not with froze-up Jeebus strat being available for months.



keeping a warrior alive.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=10060



After that it's just a matter of endurance (Cleric Mana)

http://zam.zamimg.com/images/e/a/eae810d7924c9ca3fe0a875e5d6ac84a.png

Might need Bigpop to come teach you good about the quest again