Noble Dojorn Timers

[Splorf22]

Noble Dojorn in 81s, 31k @383dps --- Rover 5k @58dps (14.94%) --- Tedorn 4k @54dps (13.02%) --- Raev 4k @47dps (11.95%) --- Kinamur 3k @43dps (10.49%) --- Bobbarker 3k @41dps (9.5%) --- Kibu 3k @37dps (8.95%) --- Valkre 3k @38dps (8.9%) --- Adon 3k @34dps (8.1%) --- Argh 2k @33dps (7.96%) --- Clang 2k @20dps (5.09%)

Grats Aaradin on Brass Knuckles!

We left the Overseer of Air up, and yes we could have killed him with our new zerg force. Kill timer was 12:27 ET. Hopefully this leads to a gravy train of endless nobles.

[Magicant]

Please don't Kill OOA.

[Erati]

Please don't Kill OOA.

did someone kill him ?

[arsenalpow]

did someone kill him ?

Server went down for the hotfix this morning. Despawned the previous one

[getsome]

[Tue Jan 14 23:07:37 2014] Noble Dojorn has become ENRAGED. GMT -3

[Troubled]

Noble down 1/17/14 2113EST
OoA despawned once he popped and respawned once he died.

[Splorf22]

So there is only one Overseer up in Sky ?

[Erati]

Rogean: Simulated Patch Day Respawns will now respawn all non-raid mobs approximately 2 minutes after broadcast.


is this gonna ruin our many Noble parties we all were trying to have

[Lostprophets]

maybe they need to recode it so it doesn't effect the noble cycle?

[Frytard]

ToD Wednesday, January 22, 2014, 17:22:22 +- 10 seconds

[Frytard]

Interesting situation happened - Before we killed Noble - the OOA was in the middle of a rangers tracking list. After the Noble died, OOA went on top of the Rangers Track list and Only one Overseer of Air is up, we are not sure of the mechanic at this point but isn't killing the noble suppose to spawn a OOA everytime? Some of our members recalled a second overseer of air would spawn which would have their own Noble Djorn spawn cycle. Was there a patch for that?

Edit: to be clear Noble Popped while we were in sky. OOA was up before we were up in sky.

[Striiker]

Does this portion put in with the recent patch: "Rogean: Simulated Patch Day Respawns will now respawn all non-raid mobs approximately 2 minutes after broadcast." impact the sky mobs? If so, I am going to assume that the Efreeti will be on permanent FFA status as leaving the overseer of air up will not have the desired effect.
Additionally, it looks like the mechanic for Overseer of Air spawning multiples was fixed as per observations made. Is this the general consensus?

[Splorf22]

Is this the general consensus?

No. I don't think anyone really knows what's going on at this point with the new repops and all of the hotfixes and such. That being said, if people want to start killing him and see how things go on Red I'd be down for that.

Also we killed him last night on the 25th.

edit:

So far we have spawns on 1-13, 1-14, 1-17, 1-22 and 1-25. The monkey wrench here is that the 1/18 patch depopped the OOA but did not spawn Dojorn. So it looks like the 1-22 was the 7 day spawn (although that is 8 days, so maybe he was left up an extra day?) and then the 1-25 is the normal 3-day spawn.

I am GUESSING that the following will occur:
1-28: OOA despawns and pops another Noble who pops another OOA
1-29 Noble repops on his own from the 1-22 kill

And this is when we should start to see two Overseers up at once and things get exponential.

[Erati]

I am GUESSING that the following will occur:
1-28: OOA despawns and pops another Noble who pops another OOA
1-29 Noble repops on his own from the 1-22 kill

And this is when we should start to see two Overseers up at once and things get exponential.

keeping an eye on this as I miss killing these Efreetis berry much

hopefully this mechanic and the constant hot fixes work themselves out and we see Noble popping daily

[Splorf22]

its so frustrating that I can't post to the dojo raid discussion thread.

I'll lay out everything to you here and feel free to post it.

-Dojo is a 7 day mob with no variance. His respawn timer is kept by the server and should not reset due to a simulated repop as other long timer mobs also don't reset.
-Killing Dojo spawns OOA.
-If OOA has been up for 72 hours (3 days), that OOA despawns and Dojo spawns. There is no server timer for this, it is an event based on how long the mob has been alive for.
-Killing this spawned Dojo will spawn another OOA (confirmed p99) and will not reset Dojo's 7 day spawn time (confirmed p99).

Open questions:
-Can more than one OOA be up on p99? I can confirm this was at one time true, but no one has seen it happen recently, so it is an open question.
-Can more than one Dojo be up on p99? Is this limited to two Dojo's, one from the 7 day cycle and one from the OOA despawn event?
-Will a simulated repop despawn OOA? If yes, will devs change this mechanic, as a simpop will despawn any triggered mob, so anyone doing a triggered epic fight will have their mobs despawn on them, etc.

Why isn't this "leave ooa up" plan working yet?
Normally we have gone months without server crashes or patches. This, as many know, causes the vendors in game to fill up. Only events (other than simpops which need to be tested) that would clear out the vendors would ruin the OOA cycles that we can create by leaving him up. This should lead to a very nice situation regarding Dojo after 3 weeks have passed and we have populated a good number of OOAs. However, recently we have been struck with a number of patches, hotfixes, and others server downtime that have despawned OOA, leaving us with fewer Dojo's to kill and leaving us in the dark about some of the open questions.

Not sure if your kill dates are right, but afaik....
Dojo spawned and was killed on Sunday the 19th and OOA was left up. This spawned another Dojo Wednesday the 22nd when OOA despawned. OOA was again left up and was due to despawn on Saturday the 25th, but Eratani informed me of a server hotfix Saturday that despawned OOA. Dojo then spawned Sunday the 26th as per his normal 7 day spawn. The next few dojo's should spawn on Wednesday, Satuday, and Sunday.

I've been tracking him fairly closely, and while I haven't written down notes on kill times, I am keeping mental notes about when he is due to spawn next, and this weekend should have seen two spawns.

So basically the hotfixes and patches and such keep fucking with the OOA timers, because he isn't a respawn mob like Noble Dojorn. Generally speaking we've been going for months at a time without a patch, but recently there has been a lot of activity, so maybe that will be an issue going forward <shrug>

[Splorf22]

Alright, we had a respawn that would have been perfect to give us one Noble every day, but then the servers crashed today . . .

Open to whatever here.

[Striiker]

I still tend to think that either this mechanic has been fixed or the simulated repps will reset Overseer of Air. Remember, all non-raid mobs will re-spawn 2 minutes after a simulate re-pop of raid mobs. Overseer of Air is not a Raid mob and so would reset after the 2 minutes had elapsed. Essentially, on a simulated server reset, the big raid mobs are spawned, 2 minutes later the rest of the server resets and re-spawn. So, if you had Plane of Hate clear, 2 minutes after Innoruuk pops (on a simulated server reset), the rest of the zone should pop.

I think we should make plans for returning to the click-fest unfortunately as this does not seem to be working out. Let's set a deadline for this to be proved or disproved please and take it from there.

[Splorf22]

Remember, all non-raid mobs will re-spawn 2 minutes after a simulate re-pop of raid mobs.

Wait, what?

That being said, I agree that the server has been stable enough recently for this to work (and Sirken already claims they have a patch in the wings for the ghosting).

[Splorf22]

Checked OOA tonight and he's not up. I think the server is simply not stable enough right now (nor likely to be with Velious beta and presumably some fixes involved there). I hope we can get back to this at some point, but if we happen to see the Noble up (unlikely as we don't usually do FTE nonsense) we'll kill it all. Aside from the Hand, who will probably pimpslap us.

[arsenalpow]

i think a lack of server stability has been only a recent development

[Splorf22]

i think a lack of server stability has been only a recent development

Yes, this would have been a great idea to implement 6 months ago, but until it's corrected I think Taken is correct and we should abandon this idea. If we go a month without resets, we can try again.

[Erati]

bump

what day is he even spawning on now

and what is the end date for our "Leave OoA" up failing experiment

i think many r ready to click air again....

[Splorf22]

He spawns 5AM ET on Thursday nights.

[Erati]

He spawns 5AM ET on Thursday nights.

so hes alrdy dead today or spawns Fri at 5 am

what an awful timer lol someone must have be sneaking these in !

[Powtle]

Why isn't Noble included in C->R->FFA rotation for now?

[Erati]

Why isn't Noble included in C->R->FFA rotation for now?

maybe bc his drops mostly only finish PoA quests? So hes more of a quest boss rather than raid target?

i dont have a good answer but when guilds get raid suspended they continue to raid Sky...

i guess since its all in the air, the rules of the 'land' dont count

[bktroost]

Why isn't Noble included in C->R->FFA rotation for now?

I mentioned this a number of times in vent meetings previously and I think once in this forum section with no real answer. If it drops BIS monk weapon and warrior haste belts (quests) ect. then sounds like the loot is on par with the other major raid mobs in the game... seems like it should definitely be included in the lockout/rotation.

[Splorf22]

TWO OVERSEERS ARE UP OH GOD ITS WORKING OH GOD

[Erati]

ok lets give this a lil more time

[Powtle]

2 Overseers still alive by Monday

[Splorf22]

So we should get our first 'extra' noble on Wednesday.

[Frytard]

Wednesday - killed noble 2 OOA up

[Splorf22]

So if I understand this correctly: sometime between now and sunday, the original noble should pop and we should get 3 OOA. On Sunday the repop noble should repop and we should have 4 OOA.

[Ella`Ella]

FE wants in on this Noble Party. Please send me a PM so we can work something out.

Thanks guys!

[Striiker]

So, We just watched TMO engage and kill Noble in Sky.. It's still Taken's sky night and we were waiting on the spawn then TMO rolls in and grabs him. Let's discuss or agree that this guild agreement was just nullified by TMO and it's time to resume the FTE fights on Noble et al.

[bizzum]

So, We just watched TMO engage and kill Noble in Sky.. It's still Taken's sky night and we were waiting on the spawn then TMO rolls in and grabs him. Let's discuss or agree that this guild agreement was just nullified by TMO and it's time to resume the FTE fights on Noble et al.

Well first let's just clarify that there was no leapfrogging or ganking of a pull from a ready raid force, because it sounds like that is being implied. Yes, you had 5ish people sitting on spawn and we had two tracking, and when it popped we ported up groups and it died.

Not really trying to nitpick here, because that's not really the point, but if it was your sky night and you were under the impression that a 'your night your kill' agreement was in place, why didn't you just have your force on 1.5 ready to go after your raid, or even up on a higher island with a person ready to pull it when it popped?

Either way, though, there was no continuing discussion about giving the mob to guilds who were in Sky that day and I don't believe every guild in the Sky schedule agreed to it. What I do know we all agreed too is that we were going to leave OoAs up so that we could get more Nobles. I personally think the assigning it days is a poor choice because it not only does it ultimately weigh in favor of whoever gets lucky on the dice roll for days (especially near the end), but there are multiple days where guild share Sky which just makes things even more difficult. I understand you can make the same argument about sitting there clicking, but when there are that many nobles I really doubt you can expect to see everybody up there every day waiting for every spawn. I know for one that we aren't that interested in Noble, but after a month and a half with never seeming it on our day, you can kind of see the flaw in assigning it that way (I'm sure every guild felt it the last month since the spawns never snowballed).

What I can say is that if you had a full presence up there in any manner that would have made it clear you were trying to lay claim to a kill on your sky day, it is almost certain we wouldn't have ported up. There were probably better ways to go about resolving the issue other than ooc banter (on both ends in the end, though), but like I said, the only agreement that I was certain on was leaving OoAs up to get more Nobles that everybody can try to get their hands on rather than have to deal with corpsing and/or pulling the harder mobs that drop the same loot.

I don't think anything was nullified by TMO. There has been over a month stretch where Nobles were just being killed by the same people and OoAs being reset by server crashes. Other people were obviously going up on other days since the beginning to kill Nobles (you can even see it in the kill logs posted here), and there had been more talk recently of blowing up this idea than sticking with it (until just a few days ago). I'm open to hammer out actual details, but I'm more for letting a lot of Nobles spawn and letting people come up to try and have a hack at it. It's not like it's a time commitment since you can track exact times, and it gives everybody a chance to score the kill rather than just leave it up to getting lucky on the day you were assigned, possibly having some guilds and days only get a couple in comparison with others, and have to deal with the split days in the schedule.

[arsenalpow]

Textwall
It doesn't matter how it went down Bizzum, we sure as shit had an agreement otherwise people would have been killing the overseers this entire time. Why is it so hard for you and your guild to keep your word on anything?? That novel outlining your position means nothing to me. Everyone agreed to not kill overseers and should a noble spawn during a skyday then that guild killed it. You and the rest of the TMO leadership ruined it because you can't even keep your word on a simple agreement.

If you want to distinguish this current TMO regime from the last you aren't doing a good job of it.

[Erati]

we didnt know we had to "compete" for Noble so the mobilizing was slow

albiet he was pulled within 10 min of spawning and we did have people up there tracking as well

could we have poopsockd it with a raid force.. Yes. Did anyone think that was required with this agreement. No.

fact remains u guys knew which sky day he spawned on ( Taken / BDA), saw us with a group up there but still did not yield or communicate. Our leadership wasnt 100% sure he was popping last night as he died the night before. This is a new mechanic, people are not used to us doing it this way.

Asking 30 people to wait around for a "chance" he would b there didnt sit with me. However i did not think for one min another guild would go snipe him not even 10 min after showing up. There was even talk to let Noble remain up til the mornin so BDA could kill him at an earlier time for everyone else on the server.

[Striiker]

Chest and Eratani covered things quite nicely and I agree with everything they stated. I would add that the understanding was always that whomever had that day in sky, the Nobles which popped or were up were theirs as a part of their sky rotation. It was never agreed to be an opportunity to have another large click-fest with increased frequency. It was to be an end to that kind of bullshit, not-fun experience.

Taken and most other guilds interested in killing the efreeti have been waiting (with growing impatience) to see if the mechanics would work as stated and yes that means we have gone a long time without getting a shot at killing him (we were all in the same boat). We left up Noble many times when we knew he was up as a part of the agreement because we really wanted this to work and assumed that all other guilds were onboard. So yes, TMO did just shit all over the agreement (or at the absolute least, the spirit of it) We were all on the same page on this and the commentary made around this has always been clear that the Nobles belonged to whomever had sky that night. It was never intended to be an FTE type event.

[Splorf22]

At least from my perspective, the point of this was to spawn 5000 nobles so we don't have to fight like dogs over them.

We should have 3 OOAs up soon, 4 by the end of the weekend, and 5 if Rogean grants us another repop.

[bktroost]

Well TMO just sniped a Noble from AG on our sky night when we had a full raid force up there. No opportunity to let us pull or real consideration there so I'm going to question something. Since we are leaving OOAs up to spawn more nobles and since we are not being respectful of each other's nights arn't we are just feeding nobles to TMO--the only guild sniping other people's nobles? So why are we leaving OOAs up again?


Sounds to me like the experiment failed.

I will say thank you to them for letting our pallies loot the cosmetic pieces that TMO "didn't need."

[Snackies]

Stop whining.

This is the 3rd noble that's been picked up by TMO in over a month. There was no agreement in place beyond OOA and I'm sure once we are confident that these are spawning regularly (because timers are all over the place) I'm sure we'd be fine making arrangements to leave others up if they're popping on our day.

Remember - there are still more nobles going around for folks than the once a week we had before.

[Splorf22]

our day.

dibs on all sunday nobles

[Snackies]

dibs on all sunday nobles

nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu! :)

[bktroost]

Stop whining.

There was no agreement in place beyond OOA and I'm sure once we are confident that these are spawning regularly (because timers are all over the place) I'm sure we'd be fine making arrangements to leave others up if they're popping on our day.


So at what point do we make that arrangement? What does the Noble spawn have to do for TMO to say "We agree to not jump full raids in sky on other nights." It is in your favor to consider this because I was sent 2 tells today from other guilds infuriated by what you did to us and there is now talk of downing the OOAs. I suggest we work something out before we loose this opportunity.

(also, your third one this month? So on average you get him once every 10 days? and you are proud about your ability to jump smaller guilds who never see this guy and are fully prepared to pull him on their night to meet your 3 a month quota?)

**EDIT: You will note that AG did not kill the OOAs tonight nor am I threatening to. But, and please realize I am speaking about officers here, there is talk of ending this "civil" agreement we have. I want to see this work.

[Snackies]

So at what point do we make that arrangement? What does the Noble spawn have to do for TMO to say "We agree to not jump full raids in sky on other nights." It is in your favor to consider this because I was sent 2 tells today from other guilds infuriated by what you did to us and there is now talk of downing the OOAs. I suggest we work something out before we loose this opportunity.

(also, your third one this month? So on average you get him once every 10 days? and you are proud about your ability to jump smaller guilds who never see this guy and are fully prepared to pull him on their night to meet your 3 a month quota?)

**EDIT: You will note that AG did not kill the OOAs tonight nor am I threatening to. But, and please realize I am speaking about officers here, there is talk of ending this "civil" agreement we have. I want to see this work.

I'll defer to Zagum to comment on any future agreements, but talks of downing the OOA's is rather petty and makes these "other guilds" no better than how bad we're being made out to be.

Everyone is still better off than where we were last year, so I don't see any reason to take the QQ train to the raid discussion forums. If you feel we're being unreasonable, try sending us a tell/PM first so we can discuss.

Furthermore, this is actually our 3rd noble this year according to our DKP site, compared to getting the usual 3 a week. I feel we're being more than generous with helping spread the nobles love.

[-Catherin-]

The Noble agreement leaves no room for misinterpretation. If The Noble spawns on your own sky day, it is yours and other guilds leave it alone. This whole thing was supposed to be so there would be more nobles for everyone. All I see is that it is going to be more Nobles for TMO.

I don't trust that you intend to ever leave Nobles to their respective guilds on their own sky days. I cannot come to any other conclusion with the evidence of how you have already acted. Everyone is going to lose if you keep it up though. So im asking you please, enough.

There are Guilds that have still seen *zero* nobles this year because they are trying to honor this agreement

[Splorf22]

Seeing as how the servers are down *again* . . . I think we chose a remarkably bad time to do this.

Go go Velious beta?

[Erati]

another hot fix this mornin....

although the Overseer might have been dead before then however that is unconfirmed

i was told FE were goin up to kill it (OoA) last night, did they down Overseer and Hand?

[Powtle]

Zero Overseer up atm :/

[Erati]

Zero Overseer up atm :/

the hot fix this morning killed off the Overseers.

Since it seems we are receiving server updates at a much more feverish pace in 2014 versus 2013 we may want to scrap this idea altogether.

Also if all the Sky raiding guilds on the server feel its best to continue trudging through this agreement, in spite of all the resets of the Overseer of Air spawn, then we need to outline more specifics about the Noble Dojo engagement rules.

These rules do not need to be complex, but if it takes 10 guilds agreeing just to make the additional spawns function, then we also need to make sure those 10 guilds agree to how we deal with the extra Nobles.

AG has been wanting Noble to be given a R,C,FFA classification for a while now, if someone would also like to comment on that.

[-Catherin-]

I would be more than happy with a C/R/FFA with nobles just like everything else. It would finally put some "teeth" behind the enforcement of it.

I just think it becomes trickier with the OoA and HoV that trigger to spawn afterwards. should noble/OoA/HoV all be considered one spawn and you have 6 hours to get them all killed? or would the 20min timer still apply before they became FFA

[bktroost]

I would be more than happy with a C/R/FFA with nobles just like everything else. It would finally put some "teeth" behind the enforcement of it.

I just think it becomes trickier with the OoA and HoV that trigger to spawn afterwards. should noble/OoA/HoV all be considered one spawn and you have 6 hours to get them all killed? or would the 20min timer still apply before they became FFA

I recommend that we leave OOA alone and put Noble into a class rotation like every other mob. If you leave the OOAs you end up with a mob that spawns faster than any other on the charts. He will flop between categories so often that guild's wont need to worry about tracking Noble for "their night" and can instead watch the raid.php to figure out if they can nab him. Class R get competitive Noble, Class C get shared, rotational Noble and no one has to worry about derailing your sky night on Island 5+ because someone is porting up to get a noble that just popped on 1.5. When and if Hand ever pops let him be FFA seeing as many guilds don't have the force to get there or pull him down. He would go into the 6 hour window more often than not.

[Striiker]

Leaving Overseer of Air up AND trying for a C, R, FFA rotation on Noble Dojorn will eventually become impossible to properly and effectively keep track of. I think it best to put Noble Dojorn on the C, R, FFA rotation with the resulting Overseer of Air and Hand of Veeshan being tied into the original kill. So, once Noble Dojorn is killed the remaining two need to be killed in 6 hours total. I don't agree that all three should be tied to the same start timer (so that all three need to be killed within 6 hours of the Noble Dojorn spawn else becoming FFA). This fits into the intended designs of the tiered system. To do otherwise has a great potential for grief.

[Powtle]

We could keep the Dojorn spawn rate under control by limiting the number of OOA being up.
Please Loraen correct me if I'm wrong but with 3 OOA up we'd get about a Dojorn each day right?
We could say that when the 4th OOA spawns, that OOA and the resulting Hand are FFA to whoever.

So we could have a Dojorn each day, on the C/R/FFA rotation.

[bktroost]

If your math is correct then that seems sustainable. We need to have a plan of action if the server goes down and wipes the OOAs. Would the C/R/FFA continue in the same way, just at a slower pace? Also does it become punishable for a guild to kill OOA 1,2 or 3?

[williestargell]

Frankly I think leaving OOA up without staff enforcement is a waste of time and effort and can do nothing but lead to conflict.

1) Someone will snipe Noble when it is not their turn, history repeats itself and there's a long history of people breaking this particular agreement.
2) Server is resetting and poofing the OOA's too often before they can provide enough Nobles to warrant leaving them up.

We're not gaining anything by doing it except for the potential for friction. Why not just put the efreeti's in as a single raid mob and C/R/FFA them with staff enforcement?

[bktroost]

Well I ask myself what was the ROI of our little experiment? How many OOAs loot drops did we loose in our attempt to generate more Nobles and how many extra Nobles did we get? Did we end up with 6 extra nobles before the three OOAs poofed? If we received 6 of them then that means I invest one OOA and received two nobles gaining me one efreeti drop. However, If you include the loss of three Hands then we came out dead even. If we would have had one more pop before the server reset we would have actually made progress. Is it worth the friction to double our efreeti drops across the board? I would love seeing some stats on how long we worked to achieve the triple OOAs we had. If we can get that and project it one more OOA then we'll know exactly how long it will take before we start making profit.

I'm willing to work to make it happen, but I agree without staff support (maybe even just making OOA deaths public knowledge) its going to be considerably harder.

Bottom line, even if people don't follow the process to a T, we as a server still gain on our investments if we make the attempt work over time.

[Splorf22]

If N overseers are up, we will get 7N/3 + 1 Nobles per week. If the server is stable for a month, that is 4 normal spawns of noble + 3 repop spawns = 7, so thats about 17 Nobles per week. At that point it is hard to imagine anyone going too nuts over him. The problem is the server simply hasn't been that stable, and the question is whether it will be stable in the future.

[Powtle]

1) Someone will snipe Noble when it is not their turn, history repeats itself and there's a long history of people breaking this particular agreement.
If Dojorn gets on the C/R/FFA rotation sniping won't possible because it's GM enforced.
The fact of not killing OOA wouldn't be GM enforced tho, but a ppl doing that would probably punish themselves by having less pops.

2) Server is resetting and poofing the OOA's too often before they can provide enough Nobles to warrant leaving them up.
We reach the 3 OOA count in about 17 days. It seems quite to me.
Well, when Velious times come maybe we'll have more server patches.

[Splorf22]

We reach the 3 OOA count in about 17 days. It seems quite to me.

Not quite. The script is basically "When Noble Dojorn dies, spawn a new Overseer of Air. If this OOA is slain within 3 days, spawn the Hand of Veeshan. Otherwise despawn him and respawn Noble Dojorn".

So basically we only get "new" OOAs every "normal" pop of Noble Dojorn, i.e. every week and on simulated patch days.

Also now that I put it that way, it never makes sense to kill the OOA. Even the first week you'll get 3 Noble pops (Day 0, 3, 6) instead of Noble/OOA/Hand and then the next week you get two and so on and so forth.

[Powtle]

Also now that I put it that way, it never makes sense to kill the OOA. Even the first week you'll get 3 Noble pops (Day 0, 3, 6) instead of Noble/OOA/Hand and then the next week you get two and so on and so forth.

So this respond to Nemce's "ROI" question?
It's always better to have only Dojorn on the C/R/FFA rotation (without touching others) then having the whole trinity on the rotation.

So the remaining issue would be:
Leaving Overseer of Air up AND trying for a C, R, FFA rotation on Noble Dojorn will eventually become impossible to properly and effectively keep track of. [...] To do otherwise has a great potential for grief.

If there are 2 Dojorns up at the same time we wouldn't know under which Class is each of them.
And we don't know how the server-side script (raid.php) can handle those parallel spawns.

[Splorf22]

So here are the facts:
Top row is the number of days since repop.
Middle row of numbers = number of efreeti kills if you kill dojo, ooa, and hand.
Bottom row of numbers = number of efreeti kills if OOA is left up.

Assuming no Sim Pops

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
3 3 3 3 3 3 3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 9 9 9
1 1 1 2 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 6 7 8 9 10 11

What it all means:
-We lose efreeti kills if there are 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, or 9 days between server clearing events (patch, server crash, etc).
-We break even if there are 6, 10, 11, or 14 days between server clearing events.
-We gain efreeti kills if there are 12, 13, 15, or more days between server clearing events.
Simulating a repop on day 10 gives:
-Days before simpop remain 9/10 lose efreetis and 1/10 break even
-0, 1, 2, and 4 days after simpop result in a loss of efreetis
-5 days after simpop is a wash
-3 and 6+ days after simpop result in more efreetis

Another simpop on day 20 results in the same odds for days 0-19 and still more efreeti kills on the simpop and beyond.

*This also assumes we are able to handle two efreeti's spawning per day.

With simpops on days 10 and 20 our first three efreeti day would be day 28.

For all intents and purposes it is impossible to know which OOA you are killing if you attempt to kill a particular OOA out of the pack.

Feel free to post on my behalf.

-Ploktor

Of course he is TMO scum now, so I'm not sure I can trust him.

But can we get this guy access to the raid forums so I don't have to post for him ?!

[Powtle]

2 OOA up (March 3rd at 14:00 EST)

[Funkutron5000]

Glad to hear this is workin'

[Erati]

Glad to hear this is workin'

still unsure what "workin" will mean in terms of engaging Noble...

daily click fest or yield to Sky day

[williestargell]

This is a great academic exercise and frankly I think too many of us are having more fun with it as such rather than as a game where the idea is to actually kill stuff.

Let's stop playing around with this and actually take action on something that will produce a good result for the server.

Take a pick

1) GM enforced C/R/FFA
2) Guilds ALL agree to leave OOA up and to rotate the nobles based on who's sky day it is. Frankly we're acting like we have this and we don't. TMO has not agreed.
3) Agreement to not Kill OOA, but leave Noble as FFA (this is what we have currently)
4) No agreement at all.

Give me anything but #3 which is what we have now.

[Splorf22]

Give me anything but #3 which is what we have now.

I don't understand. Obviously I would prefer some sort of Sky day semi-rotation if only because click fests are fucking retarded, but by agreeing to leave the Noble up, we get more Efreeti loot (as long as the server is stable for more than 2 weeks or so). This should be a no-brainer regardless of how said loot is distributed.

[Erati]

I don't understand. Obviously I would prefer some sort of Sky day semi-rotation if only because click fests are fucking retarded, but by agreeing to leave the Noble up, we get more Efreeti loot (as long as the server is stable for more than 2 weeks or so). This should be a no-brainer regardless of how said loot is distributed.

Its not a no brainer if this agreement requires 9 guilds to accomplish but only 1 guild benefits...

[phiren]

I'd prefer to throw it up to a C/FFA/R rotation like everything else. Putting it up on C / FFA / R gives every guild an incentive to leave the other mobs up to get through the cycle quicker.

The 'your sky day' is just not clear enough for a couple reasons:
#1) Saturday / Sunday / Monday are double days
#2) Other Class R Guilds that do not have Sky days might want to get in on this

I just don't see what the trouble is with FFA / C / R ... other than stirring up the entire debate AGAIN as to whether FFA / C / R is the right thing to be doing in the first place.

Noble gives an FTE shout (he did a month or so ago)... clearly the GMs saw this is an important "Raid Mob".. so why not count it as a Raid Mob like the other Raid Mobs?

~Phiren
Azure Guard

[Erati]

While I agree we need to get this encounter more defined....

it makes zero sense for guilds that do not currently raid Sky to worry ab Noble.

he is a glorified quest npc where 90% of his loot is used to complete Isle 7 quests in PoS.

If he is given a R/C/FFA, Id like to see the R guilds who currently do not raid sky, get on the sky schedule before they pencil themselves in for Noble Dojorn.

[Splorf22]

I am not sure Rogean's script would handle something like Noble. His spawn works differently (which is why we are talking about this whole business). For example, what happens if two Nobles are up at the same time?

[phiren]

Make it simple like CT / Draco, and not try to over-complicate the situation. 2 nobles up at same time = both FFA. Might suck and not make sense, but it should be very simple to 'script'. And how often are we talking about this happening?

[Erati]

With Velious in Beta asking them to configure and test the raid system with adding Noble seems a bit overkill...

We have plenty of info here (8 pages) for the Sky guilds to agree to a PLAYERS agreement:

From the cease fire of OoA to the handling of Dojo pops.

Problem is not all guilds are even commenting on this which causes the situation to linger and live in greyness

Its more beneficial to some to say nothing, kill as many Dojo as possible and worry ab the system later. This is why we need to either scrap this and go back to before or figure/hammer out a PLAYERS agreement with how the extra spawns are handled.

This is not being done so 1 guild can get an extra 4 Nobles per week, and if that becomes the norm then you will not see the OoAs up for long.

[bktroost]

Its more beneficial to some to say nothing, kill as many Dojo as possible and worry ab the system later. This is not being done so 1 guild can get an extra 4 Nobles per week, and if that becomes the norm then you will not see the OoAs up for long.

This is the problem. None of the current guilds who ARE getting Noble's have any interest in making any agreement that lowers their pixil gain. The "Leave the OOAs up and we ALL get more Nobles" is a lie, as we have seen. Its a way of mitigating the gain of those who don't want to click fest while leaving more uncontested merbs for those who will. In their eyes its a 100% Win/Win to ignore this thread completely and keep doing what they are doing.

That being said, those who want change have no card to play without GM enforcement, other then deny the OOAs until an agreement is established. The only ones who suffer are those who are currently benefiting. We Having seen that there could, in fact, be a benefit to every guild, should we keep the OOAs up. If there is a threat to kill them then I think we will all see an incentive to come to an agreement.

I fully recommend enacting Lysistrata until an agreement is made.

[Splorf22]

So just for clarity here, my understanding is:

1 noble killed by Taken the sunday before last
OOA/HoV killed by FE right before Rogean rebooted the server
1 noble killed by ? (7-day spawn)
1 noble killed by A-Team (patch)
2 nobles killed by Divinity (3-day) today

It's hard to see why you guys are quite so upset.

[Erati]

So are we suppose to contest Noble everyday with this agreement?

The entire reason Taken supported this was to get rid of 100 man click fests we were experiencing.

If there are no ground rules for these extra Noble pops, it will turn back into click fest.

You dont see click fests right now bc the R guilds dont wanna step on each others toes. However this mechanic, without ground rules, has potential to b a daily click fest for anyone who has the timer.

We want to avoid that. We need ground rules, we need structure, we need an agreement or there is none....

[Splorf22]

Look, I think we want the same things. My hope is that the server is stable for a few weeks, we get 6 OOAs up and 20+ nobles per week and everyone gets a few on their sky night. Unfortunately, the server has not been stable.

I'm just saying that you (and AG) both seem very upset about things and I'm not sure why. So far a) it hasn't been a clickfest and b) the distribution of nobles seems far more equitable than it was before. And hopefully it will be getting better, not worse. So, honest question, why are you guys so unhappy?

[Jesseca]

I haven't been around very much, but I believe they are unhappy because another guild decided to come up and kill the mob on their sky nights, while they were there.

[bktroost]

I haven't been around very much, but I believe they are unhappy because another guild decided to come up and kill the mob on their sky nights, while they were there.

Here's the thing. I know that I have no desire to derail a sky progression in the middle of the raid because Noble Dojorn popped and we have everyone breaking into island 5. If I knew that the Noble was uncontested because he popped during my guild's time slot then I could keep doing what I want and have someone pull him when things calm down. The guild's that I have spoken with also don't want to be forced to keep a person sitting on 1.5 all night with the goal of clickfesting or even snipe preventing to ensure they get the Noble that popped during their guild's night.

If we get more nobles... 100,000 more nobles... but get sniped everytime because we don't desire being forced into contesting other guild's snipe attempts then how does that benefit anyone but the guild's doing the sniping?

No one wants a clickfest--agreed. But it seems some people want straight FFA for every noble pop ever and, I don't think its that hard to believe, some class R guilds don't want that. No one wants to be jumped or steamrolled and honestly I just don't think its fun to steamroll other people. Its a game to me and I think playing rudely, regardless of a lack of rule clarification, is just plainly not fun.

**EDIT: Splorf, your count doesn't go far back enough to when they first started popping. There were 3 tmo snipes that happened pretty much in a row. I have nothing against tmo directly, they just happened to be the ones who made it apparent that we need some clarification on how these are being handled. I just want a solid agreement as to what we all understand the system to be. I personally think that the current one is not friendly to all playstyles. I want to keep the OOAs up, but if half of us arn't collecting on "Free Parking" and the other half are (monopoly reference) then we need to pull out the rule book.

[Troubled]

Its not a no brainer if this agreement requires 9 guilds to accomplish but only 1 guild benefits...Why leave OoA up for "all guilds" if it's not gonna work for all guilds? As I understood from the start, nobles go to whatever guild is in sky that day. To come in and claim ignorance to that is flippant and disingenuous. Next guild to get their noble stolen, kill OoAs imo.

[Splorf22]

disingenuous.

I wish you people would stop accusing me of lying through my teeth. If you look through this thread, there is no mention of what would be done with the nobles.

I had to look around and I guess you guys are referring to Chest's thread where he talks about leaving the Nobles up for the guild on its sky day. Apparently I did post in this thread, but somehow my brain processed the title and didn't even bother to read the rest of it.

I know that I have no desire to derail a sky progression in the middle of the raid because Noble Dojorn popped and we have everyone breaking into island 5

It's extremely easy to pull Noble wherever you want. It works exactly like pulling a trigger.

[bktroost]

So if we can talk constructively for a moment, I don't see why "if Noble pops during your time slot" is a bad plan. The argument that there are multiple people in sky on any given day was said. The hole in that argument is that we break up Sky days by morning, evenging ect. So if, for example, Noble pops on Saturday between 8am est and 4pm est then he belongs to FE. If he pops between 4pm est and 12 midnight then he belongs to AG because those are the time that those 2 guilds are in Sky... however, what if he pops at 4am or some really off hour? Well it seems to me that it would be a lot easier to create a spreadsheet with the hours of every day broken down to an exactness and split up for the guilds in sky than to have Rogean change his script to allow for Nobles.

If we can figure out an exact chunk of time and give that to each guild it would be a good starting place. Then of course what happens if your time slot ends at...say...4am and he pops at 3:58am. How long do you have to engage before the Guilds that starts at 4am can have him?

Or do we make it even more simple and just say he can only be killed by the guild in that time slot regardless of when he pops... and of course, should an actual fight cross over into another guild's time slot, KSing would be prohibited.

I just want to keep throwing out ideas until one sticks.

[Splorf22]

So if we can talk constructively for a moment, I don't see why "if Noble pops during your time slot" is a bad plan.

I think it's a fine plan.

[arsenalpow]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135122

this thread has existed for months, why did we suddenly decide we weren't going to play ball?

[Anichek]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135122

this thread has existed for months, why did we suddenly decide we weren't going to play ball?

**crickets**

[bktroost]

Listen, absolutely no one is going to reply to this thread if they gain by ignoring it... I'm just saying, why would they?

[Splorf22]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135122

this thread has existed for months, why did we suddenly decide we weren't going to play ball?

I get the feeling this is directed at me. Maybe you should be talking to Taken? Seems we were a bit too hopeful in the motd hehe

http://imageshack.com/a/img853/3223/zj3p.jpg

[williestargell]

Taken's been saying for two weeks that if everyone hasn't agreed, then there is no agreement to leave Noble to the person's sky day.

TMO hasn't agreed so there's no agreement. We're not going to pass on them either when they're being killed on our night.

[-Catherin-]

Taken is more than willing to follow a noble agreement, but there needs to be one first. We already got sniped trying to follow an agreement everyone was not on board with.

Maybe this will help us actually get an agreement in place.

Everyone is always okay with things going on until it effects them

[Splorf22]

I am fine with either, really, although I can't see The A-team winning any poopsocking wars. I just find your position hypocritical. In practice, everyone has been leaving them up for the past 2+ weeks except for you guys (twice now).

I'm quite curious to see how BDA and Nemce and such respond.

[-Catherin-]

I am fine with either, really, although I can't see The A-team winning any poopsocking wars. I just find your position hypocritical. In practice, everyone has been leaving them up for the past 2+ weeks except for you guys (twice now).

I'm quite curious to see how BDA and Nemce and such respond.

im sure azure guard disagrees. Loraen you havnt been very outspoken about this at all until it effects you. that is hypocritical in itself.

you cant expect anyone to follow an agreement that people havnt agreed to. We tried to do this already and we got burned. We still would like to, but something concrete needs to be discussed.

[Splorf22]

im sure azure guard disagrees. Loraen you havnt been very outspoken about this at all until it effects you. that is hypocritical in itself.

I don't think you understand what this word means. When you complain about other people killing Noble Dojorn on your day and then do it yourself, that is hypocritical. Pointing out that someone else is being hypocritical is not hypocritical. I did not make the same post about TMO because they never made the same complaints, hence they are not being hypocritical. /boggle

you cant expect anyone to follow an agreement that people havnt agreed to

Actually, pretty much everyone has been leaving Nobles up for the past two weeks except you. I even talked to TMO a bit which is why they weren't in Sky last Wednesday for example. Sure they aren't making some sort of groveling post, but they have been more or less respecting it.

P.S. this is like the third week in row you guys have done this, and its my first post. Well trio of posts. Anyway, I'm done, I simply wanted to point things out. We'll see how things evolve moving forward.

[-Catherin-]

No we made it pretty clear that if guilds started sniping on other guilds sky days that there was no agreement. We were ticked off that it happened. We are following through with what was promised now. We are not going to go ahead in good faith hoping we don't get jumped again when we "finally" get a noble to spawn on our night after two months. That's what happened last time. You didn't care much then. Looks like you do now.

I'll say again. We are more than willing to go along with an agreement. we WANT an agreement. but until everyone says they are onboard with it... then there is NO agreement.

ill return to this thread when we are all ready to talk and to get something in place that we can trust that everyone will follow

[arsenalpow]

BDA could easily kill overseers or snipe nobles but we want the initial plan to go forward as it was until TMO decided to break it. Noble pops on your day, kill it. Stay out of sky if it isn't your day. It's really simple.

[Striiker]

Taken has been pushing and working on having this agreement work out. Everyone was in agreement that we would leave Overseer of Air up to spawn multiple Nobles. Everyone was in agreement that if a Noble popped on a guild's night, it was theirs.

I was present during the discussions in Mumble or Vent when we were first trying to iron out the agreements around all raid mobs. At the time someone brought up Noble / Overseer and all raiding guilds were present and tacitly agreed to the notion that if Overseer pops on your sky day, it's yours. All class C guilds as well as all Class R guilds (or their authorized proxy) were present. The mechanics were explained and we all thought it was would be a great idea.

With a series of missteps due to server resets etc. we finally started to see more nobles spawn. Taken respected the rotation numerous times, leaving Noble up for whomever was due to kill him. On Taken's night we had a tracker present and were going to head to Sky when he popped and TMO shows up and within minutes of spawning, flowed a pile of people in to Sky and killed him. They were unapologetic and stated that they were not willing to abide by this agreement.

We did try to ask guilds in this forum to discuss this as have others, and nobody from TMO stepped up to explicitly state that they will abide by the agreement to leave Noble up for whomever's sky night it was. So we in Taken have been viewing this as a return to the click-fest bullshit until we hear from TMO in this forum. (their officers and guild leader have access)

I personally do not want to do the click air to get FTE. It's ridiculous, it's a waste of time and does not involve skill. Taken doesn't want to be doing this either. Starting with TMO can we please get each raiding guild to state here that they agree to leave Noble up for whomever's sky night it is? IF we can get these responses then I would say that there is an agreement in place.

[bktroost]

Let's put this to a rest. TMO and Taken both have a point, points which can reasonably spawn animosity. TMO were the first to break the pact on 2-21 during Taken's night when they had less than one group setting up. They said they engaged because Taken was not there in force. On 2-22 TMO engaged during AGs night while we had 30+ people and mid sky progression.

In retaliation, Taken began sniping Nobles in the same manner that TMO did. TMO set a precedent and it would be foolish to assume that every other guild would abide by a plan when a major contender is not. It's not hypocrisy, it's following a precedent. Adapt to survive, it's logical. Not the best solution by any means, but logical.

However, let's use this forum to set a new (old) precedent. Azure Guard throws in their hand on this agreement with Taken. The count is up to 2. Who else wants to make this server better?

PS: you can tell tiggles that he doesn't need to leave his mage invis in the OOA windmill to fraps us. At this time AG is very willing to play nice and has no intention of downing them. Your confidence in us is refreshing.

[Dentalplan]

Noble pops on your day, kill it. Stay out of sky if it isn't your day. It's really simple.
Divinity agrees with this plan.

[Powtle]

0 Dojorn and 3 Overseers atm

[bktroost]

So am I correct in seeing BDA, Taken, A-Team, Europa and Divinity all in agreement about the Noble spawns? Who does that leave? Sky rotation thread says this:

Tentative schedule moving forward (as of 11/06/2013)

Sunday - AM - TMO, PM - A-Team*
Monday - Europa, PM - Indignation
Tuesday - IB*
Wednesday - Divinity*
Thursday - Taken*
Friday - BDA*
Saturday - AM/ early PM - TMO, Late PM - Azure Guard*

Looks like we need TMO, Indignation, IB and FE... although there is no more FE? Which means Just TMO, Indignation and IB.

I hope we get a response soon. The last time TMO posted in this thread was 3-3? I don't see IB anywhere, nor Indig. I think if we put a "make or break" date on the OOAs then the stalling will come to an end.

[Snackies]

If nobles are spawning regularly on each day I don't see why we'd batphone a raid for them on a non-sky day but I don't want anyone to get the impression TMO would sign off on this agreement.

Should OOAs de-spawn (via patch, player choice, etc) then we're happy to click air for FTE until they're regularly spawning again for days we decide to contest.

We will continue to stay hands-off on OOA in an effort to make things as aimable as possible while still maintaining the interests of our members.

[Erati]

how many OoAs need to b up before Noble shows up everday?

There are 3 up currently according to Europa.

[Dentalplan]

Assuming the current OOA's stay up, we should have at least 1 Noble every day starting on Sunday.

[bktroost]

If nobles are spawning regularly on each day I don't see why we'd batphone a raid for them on a non-sky day but I don't want anyone to get the impression TMO would sign off on this agreement.

Knowing that--starting Sunday--everyone will have 1 Noble spawn on every day, what is stopping everyone from not just signing off on the agreement. We can say "So long as there are 3+ OOAs a guild will not snipe a Noble outside of their sky window." I can understand a competitive guild not wanting to loose out on their noble numbers if it was a once a week clickfest or if the OOAs were inconsistent. We tracked the last OOAs attempt and they provided consistent nobles.

I use the word Window instead of day because of the split days. I see 2 guilds potentially having conflict over the nebulous time between raids while mobs repop. If it were FE/AG that would not be a problem. AG and FE had an agreement that FE would be completely done in sky before 3pm EST for the sake of repops. I'm sure the new management will disagree, however. I don't know what other guilds have worked out but I can see a potential for controversy across the board.

Also Snackums, with TMO currently holding 2 sky days this is even more in your favor.

[Splorf22]

If nobles are spawning regularly on each day I don't see why we'd batphone a raid for them on a non-sky day but I don't want anyone to get the impression TMO would sign off on this agreement.

Should OOAs de-spawn (via patch, player choice, etc) then we're happy to click air for FTE until they're regularly spawning again for days we decide to contest.

We will continue to stay hands-off on OOA in an effort to make things as aimable as possible while still maintaining the interests of our members.

How about "if there are at least 3 OOA up, leave Noble up for the guild on it's sky day" ? 3 OOAs -> 1 Noble per day on average (not necessarily every day, though).

[Erati]

There are other guilds growing and wanting to hit Sky ...

how long is TMO gonna use both days ? (with key corpses from FE expiring on Sat it made sense not to just junk the Saturday timeslot)

Is there some "rescheduling" in order?

[williestargell]

Aye, if someone needs a Sky day it's not fair for one guild to hold down two spots.

[bktroost]

We've been wanting to move up to Saturday morning and have worked with FE extensively in that slot. If TMO is going to move to Sunday, AG will move up to Sat morning and Sat evening becomes open... Sat evening is not that bad a slot if AG has morning. We will only kill bee queen every other time meaning its a fair 50/50 day... but I think we should move this convo to the sky thread.

[Erati]

Yea, we need to put this in Sky thread so more can chime in

good idea BK

[getsome]

Removing IB from the OoA nap effective as of this post.

[Snackies]

After a brief exchange of PMs earlier last week with Fearstalker I just wanted to provide some further clarification on TMO's official position:

If we are getting nobles popping consistently on our sky day (Sunday only - as Saturday has recently been released), TMO will agree to leave dojo alone for guilds to kill on their respective sky days.

TMO will reserve the right to contest dojo on non-sky days until they are popping consistently on our day (due to OOAs being depopped due to reset, killed, etc).

(To avoid any potential future conflicts) Please note, that until the pops actually occur any "you should start seeing it this next Sunday so leave ours alone today" we'll still reserve the right to contest.

TMO will continue to honor the OOA nap agreement.

Thanks for everyone's patience while we sorted this one out internally after all the changes that have been going on.

[williestargell]

So sounds like we finally have an agreement -

Noble FFA until they are appearing every day
Once we're getting a Noble per day then reserved for sky day owner

[jpetrick]

Once we're getting a Noble per day then reserved for sky day owner

How do we sort out nobles where two guilds are on the same day?

[Erati]

How do we sort out nobles where two guilds are on the same day?

time slots and voodoo

[jpetrick]

So should I just talk to Europa to negotiate timeslots?

[bktroost]

Yes. Leave that to the 2 guilds that share a day.

[Powtle]

No OOA up atm

[Erati]

the reset from late in the week wiped them out

with TMO stating their intentions to FFA Noble til they spawn everyday I dont think we can do a 'Noble Agreement' until he starts to show up for all guilds else it makes no sense to have guilds twiddle thumbs for 2-3 weeks, Nobles spawn on days other than theirs then a server reset wipes out that progress.

FFA Nobles til 3 OoAs up then the Noble Agreement with Sky Day priorty ensues?

[Striiker]

I propose (based upon commentary thus far):

1) Nobles are FFA until 3 OoA are up at which point Nobles will fall to ownership based upon the day of spawn. Shortly after this number is reached, spawns should be happening daily.
2) Sky day runs from 12:00 AM - 11:59 PM. (shall we set this to EDT or PDT?)
3) Days shared by two guilds will each work out their own method of handling the spawns that day.

Option:
Replace 1) above with:
Nobles FFA until they are spawning daily. This will need to be tracked though.

If guilds agree to this, please post below.

[arsenalpow]

I think it should be 100% nobles for whomever day it spawns. None of this FFA until there's 3 overseers crap.

Everyone is in the same boat, repops are random nobles will pop sporadically. Sometimes people will get a noble, sometimes they won't. Logic such as:
If we are getting nobles popping consistently on our sky day (Sunday only - as Saturday has recently been released), TMO will agree to leave dojo alone for guilds to kill on their respective sky days.

TMO will reserve the right to contest dojo on non-sky days until they are popping consistently on our day (due to OOAs being depopped due to reset, killed, etc).
is ridiculous. "We will kill all nobles until we get nobles anyways. Shit never changes I guess.

[Ella`Ella]

I think it should be 100% nobles for whomever day it spawns. None of this FFA until there's 3 overseers crap.

Everyone is in the same boat, repops are random nobles will pop sporadically. Sometimes people will get a noble, sometimes they won't. Logic such as:

is ridiculous. "We will kill all nobles until we get nobles anyways. Shit never changes I guess.

At no point did TMO say that they would kill all nobles until we get one on our day. However, until there is an equitable distribution for each guild on each day, nobles may as well remain FFA. I hardly foresee TMO going to sky more than once or on a very rare occasion, twice, to kill a noble.

[phiren]

I don't know why we can't just work out a rotation. It's the only fair way to handle this. AG has agreed to this rule in the hopes that we will get something out of it.

To say "Well once the servers are stable" isn't good enough for us. It doesn't guarantee us anything, ever. We need some guarantee that we will kill a Noble at some point if we leave OOAs up. So what can you all offer us in that regard?

Simple: Rotate nobles

Player agreed Rotation:
Europa / Divinity / A-Team / Taken / BDA / TMO / IB / Azure Guard / (Indignation)

That is 8 guilds... and possibly 9. If a noble spawns "Every day"... someone is still getting left out.

A rotation ensures everyone gets a Noble.

~Phiren

[Ella`Ella]

rotation.

[bktroost]

Phiren, you cannot use the word rotation outside of Class R discussions. If you say it too loudly Class C members burst into flames or grow hideous boils. I'm sorry Ella, please forgive his impudence.

Also, don't consider the weekly sky rota-- I mean sky "agreement" in the same category as the "you-know-what." It's certainly not.

Lets just wait and see if we can get the OOAs stable. having them stack and multiply is a hugely classic mechanic. If we get them to not depop on server resets then it wont matter, we can have 7-10 OOAs up and there will be multiple Noble spawns per day.

[Ella`Ella]

I'm sorry Ella, please forgive his impudence.

Forgiven!

I don't see said "agreement" being that unreasonable until we have nobles every day. If snacks hasn't read this already, I'll mention it to him as I know he's been running point on issues relating to sky.

[Sadad]

[removed]

[Striiker]

Personally, I would prefer to leave nobles alone and let whomever owns that sky day kill it. Realistically, this is not going to happen because one of the guilds in not in agreement with this. All other guilds are in favor of the hands off approach for nobles except on a guild's given sky night and I'd love to see TMO agree to this.

I have a hard time accepting the proposal when we are not all in agreement because it effectively nullifies the agreement. I have great respect for all guilds and do not wish to ruin their fun but this really does need to be an all-in type of system for it to work. If we have a guild treating Nobles as an FFA mob until it pops on their day, then someone is getting screwed over and so things deteriorate.

I'd ask TMO to consider joining with all of the other Sky raiding guilds on this and just leave Nobles be except for their Sky night. It's in line with the normal sky agreement in principal.

[phiren]

I still don't understand how the "your sky day" is even a feasible solution, whether there's 1 Noble a week or 7 Noble's a week simply because of split Sky days. Ironically... TMO is now technically the only guild with a split Sky day. Every other guild pretty much has their own.

If you think we will get to the point where 5 Nobles spawn a day... then TMO is STILL getting screwed because they will only get 2.5 Nobles, while AG gets 5 Nobles.

Solution ... come to an "Agreement" where everyone can:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ro·tate / ˈrōˌtāt/
verb
verb: rotate; 3rd person present: rotates; past tense: rotated; past participle: rotated; gerund or present participle: rotating

1.
move or cause to move in a circle around an axis or center.
"the wheel continued to rotate"
synonyms: revolve, go around, turn, turn around, spin, gyrate, whirl, twirl, swivel, circle, pivot More
"the wheels rotate continually"
pass to each member of a group in a regularly recurring order.
"the job of chairing the meeting rotates"
synonyms: alternate, take turns, change, switch, interchange, exchange, swap; More
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As someone said -- we rotate everything else in Sky.. why not Noble?



~Phiren

[Jesseca]

Hmmmm....just thinking back to when we started the "agreement" within the class R guilds on all the other mobs ( which seems to be working very well ).

Now when we had a 1 guild ( Lord Bob ), who did not respect and tried to destroy the "agreement" that all the other guilds were in favor of.

How exactly did we handle it?

Just a thought.

[bktroost]

How about this for consideration. What if we tracked and broke up spawns like we do on the R/FFA/C system and let the R guilds handle it like we want to and the C handle it like they want to. Its worked for every other mob, why not this? If the GMs don't want to acknowledge it in their script then so be it, that doesn't mean we are incapable of organizing this.

If everyone has been happy with the way the R/FFA/C system works now, I don't see how anyone would have a problem with it here.

That is, until we get them more regularly. If we are capable of getting or 5+ OOAs up we freeze the system tracker where it is until a server reset and then it starts where it left off. Very simple, very familiar, very possible.

[Powtle]

No OOA up due to this tonight "soft" server reset :(

[Snackies]

I believe after Saturday's noble we'll have our 3rd OOA and they'll be popping daily.

Just dropping a note to the group that we'll be sticking to Sundays as long as these spawns keep up.

[Powtle]

Just dropping a note to the group that we'll be sticking to Sundays as long as these spawns keep up.
You meant Sunday's morning right?

[Snackies]

You meant Sunday's morning right?

No, Sundays.

[Powtle]

No, Sundays.
So no Dojorn for A-Team?

[bktroost]

Okay, so we all know that the wonderful agreement we had for OOAs has devolved into the chaotic clickfest that we all know and hate. Our agreement was working so well that we all had at least 1 noble everyday and some days even 2. We kept that up for almost 2 months in and out due to server resets.

What is it going to take to return to getting a scheduled Noble again?

No one, in any class, can say they actually enjoy fighting like dogs over 1 noble per week and then seeing the general crap drops of efreeti legs staring back at you. People are finally getting Monk fists and warrior belts. Those items are good even in Velious and certainly necessary for early Velious raiding... I can't possibly imagine that Class C guilds are okay with throwing away all the extra opportunities to gear their guild when Winter is coming.

Can IB and TMO please chime in on what we need to do in order to get the system rolling again?

[-Catherin-]

Problem with the Noble agreement is that it only takes one guild having a bad day to ruin it, like we have all come to see.

[bktroost]

That's also the solution Catherin, if things get messed up it only takes 1 guild to fix it. Ball's in their court to respond.

[-Catherin-]

technically it doesn't take just one guild to fix it. it takes them all to fix it. if there are still some that wont cooperate it doesn't matter much what any one guild does. Someone else can kill the Overseers and end it.

As far as im concerned this was a 6 month experiment that has pretty much failed. Not saying we are unwilling to try to make it work again, but we are going to have to go back to the drawing board. it cant be how it was.

[Splorf22]

Problem with the Noble agreement is that it only takes one guild having a bad day to ruin it, like we have all come to see.

Well part of the question is whether or not Nobles and Overseers are considered raid targets. It seems logical that they should be, but the fact that Sirken is not posting in this forum with 'IB RAID SUSPENDED FOR XX YEARS' leads me to think that they are not. I guess we need a ruling there.

But maybe you are correct, and we simply have a critical mass of people that care too much to ever really have this kind of thing work.

[Erati]

I'd prefer to throw it up to a C/FFA/R rotation like everything else. Putting it up on C / FFA / R gives every guild an incentive to leave the other mobs up to get through the cycle quicker.

The 'your sky day' is just not clear enough for a couple reasons:
#1) Saturday / Sunday / Monday are double days
#2) Other Class R Guilds that do not have Sky days might want to get in on this

I just don't see what the trouble is with FFA / C / R ... other than stirring up the entire debate AGAIN as to whether FFA / C / R is the right thing to be doing in the first place.

Noble gives an FTE shout (he did a month or so ago)... clearly the GMs saw this is an important "Raid Mob".. so why not count it as a Raid Mob like the other Raid Mobs?

~Phiren
Azure Guard

necroing this response...well said Phiren

QFT

[bktroost]

That would mean we would need lockouts as well... I think 2 months of dedication to make this "experiment" work should be enough to show you, Deru and Sirken and Rogean, that we DO care enough about this mob and the drops he has to give it attention. I know Velious is like priority #1 in every regard, but some of the quest items in sky are extremely good even in Velious era. This HAS to be given some attention.


Until that time comes, let me see if we can get some clarity on what to do about the immediate.

TMO instigated an aggressive move against IB. IB retaliated and Taken seized an opportunity. If we can suppose for a moment that the agreement is still standing then these 3 guilds violated that--regardless of their reasoning.

The immediate solution is to say "If IB, TMO and Taken all agree to NOT kill OOAs unanimously then we will be back on track," at least until we get word from Sirken. This is our own option as of right now and it benefits everyone.

Can we agree to this small patch while we actively work to make things better in a permanent way?

[-Catherin-]

Taken can't be in violation of an agreement that is not longer an agreement. If we know that other Guilds are going to kill the overseers and ruin it for everyone else for their own benefit, then we are not going to just sit and watch it happen.

I am personally not inclined to go back to how it was, because how it was didn't work. It will very well end up the same way. Spawn multiple overseers, couple guilds feel snubbed for one reason or another and retaliates by killing them.

Like I said, back to the drawing board.

[Splorf22]

Simply put, there is no stick here. Taken, IB, and TMO have proven that they don't mind sitting on the spawn point spamming for FTE. And Noble is not on variance, so its not nearly as bad as most.

Meanwhile the carrot has not really materialized, and that's what has me so sad about this whole business. We were about to get 3+ OOAs up which is when we would really start to flood the server with nobles.

[bktroost]

If we can suppose for a moment that the agreement is still standing

There was a presupposition. Obviously it is not still in effect or we'd have Nobles.

[bktroost]

I am personally not inclined to go back to how it was, because how it was didn't work.

Like I said, back to the drawing board.

I agree and disagree. It did work better than FTEing clickfest. I'd like to try to keep the OOAs going for now while we campaign to get some results from Rogean/Sirken.

[-Catherin-]

I think one of the things that needs to happen before we can get back to this is that every guild needs to share in this equally. we had several guilds rotating spawns but then several other guilds that would not take part and only kill nobles on their day, and other guilds days as well.

if everyone shared equally in the rotation, then they would share equally in the fallout should someone decide to kill the overseers again. This would discourage them from doing so themselves if they actually shared in the collateral with the rest of us that were trying to rotate them.

[arsenalpow]

I think one of the things that needs to happen before we can get back to this is that every guild needs to share in this equally. we had several guilds rotating spawns but then several other guilds that would not take part and only kill nobles on their day, and other guilds days as well.

if everyone shared equally in the rotation, then they would share equally in the fallout should someone decide to kill the overseers again. This would discourage them from doing so themselves if they actually shared in the collateral with the rest of us that were trying to rotate them.

Because sharing everything else on the server has worked our so well.

[-Catherin-]

Because sharing everything else on the server has worked our so well.

I know its probably a pipe dream Chest. Just stating what probably would need to happen if there is to be any real hope of this working.

Im not holding my breath on the C/R/FFA thing

[arsenalpow]

I know its probably a pipe dream Chest. Just stating what probably would need to happen if there is to be any real hope of this working.

Im not holding my breath on the C/R/FFA thing

It's absolutely a pipe dream. Unless there's an enforceable policy there never going to be anything to stop a defector from smashing any player made agreement to bits.

[bktroost]

That being said if TMO and IB both posted it was a misunderstanding right now would we all be willing to go back to the old system? We can discuss our noble issues internally with BDA and Taken ect. But for the good of the server we can all agree that what we had is better than FTE clickfesting.

[Ella`Ella]

There was no misunderstanding. TMO and FE were both forbidden from Noble when they were suspended in the past thus, Noble should have continued to be forbidden during a raid suspension as previous precedent had evidenced. Noble has FTE shouts, is still contested even on YNYD at times and requires a large enough force to down. With these three metrics in place, there is no way you can manipulate Noble into NOT being a raid target.

Noble is still a contested raid target with the only exception that there is a player agreement to leave Overseers up. TMO didn't go after Tuesday's Noble as an act of aggression, that's simply a means to justify by the offending parties. TMO went after a contested raid target when it spawned while a guild that was raid suspended was in the zone - it's nothing more black and white than that - as any other guild was welcome to contest this open spawn.

Retaliation by clearing the rest of the overseers which damages the community as a whole is an act of aggression from both parties; IB (again, during a raid suspension against a 'raid target') and Taken. Killing these was not only a violation of a raid suspension by IB but it was also a spiteful attack on the server by cheating the other guilds of 3 more nobles during the week.

[-Catherin-]

There was no misunderstanding. TMO and FE were both forbidden from Noble when they were suspended in the past thus, Noble should have continued to be forbidden during a raid suspension as previous precedent had evidenced. Noble has FTE shouts, is still contested even on YNYD at times and requires a large enough force to down. With these three metrics in place, there is no way you can manipulate Noble into NOT being a raid target.

Noble is still a contested raid target with the only exception that there is a player agreement to leave Overseers up. TMO didn't go after Tuesday's Noble as an act of aggression, that's simply a means to justify by the offending parties. TMO went after a contested raid target when it spawned while a guild that was raid suspended was in the zone - it's nothing more black and white than that - as any other guild was welcome to contest this open spawn.

Retaliation by clearing the rest of the overseers which damages the community as a whole is an act of aggression from both parties; IB (again, during a raid suspension against a 'raid target') and Taken. Killing these was not only a violation of a raid suspension by IB but it was also a spiteful attack on the server by cheating the other guilds of 3 more nobles during the week.

TMO is clearly the only innocent one in this situation.

/sarcasm

id rather this not escalate but this was pretty ridiculous.

[bktroost]

There was no misunderstanding. TMO and FE were both forbidden from Noble when they were suspended in the past thus, Noble should have continued to be forbidden during a raid suspension as previous precedent had evidenced. Noble has FTE shouts, is still contested even on YNYD at times and requires a large enough force to down. With these three metrics in place, there is no way you can manipulate Noble into NOT being a raid target.

Noble is still a contested raid target with the only exception that there is a player agreement to leave Overseers up. TMO didn't go after Tuesday's Noble as an act of aggression, that's simply a means to justify by the offending parties. TMO went after a contested raid target when it spawned while a guild that was raid suspended was in the zone - it's nothing more black and white than that - as any other guild was welcome to contest this open spawn.

Retaliation by clearing the rest of the overseers which damages the community as a whole is an act of aggression from both parties; IB (again, during a raid suspension against a 'raid target') and Taken. Killing these was not only a violation of a raid suspension by IB but it was also a spiteful attack on the server by cheating the other guilds of 3 more nobles during the week.


I 100% agree with you that these mobs are raid targets, however, they are NOT given any consideration as so by the GMs. They are not on the 1/1/1 system and are when we got suspended I was told by Sirken that Sky mobs are good to go! Which, I firmly believe, should include Noble, OOAs and HoV. These mobs should NOT be just a regular mob and SHOULD be added be given the weight they deserve. However, they are not. Which is why IB got pissed that you guys came up to capitalize on "their Noble" even though they were in suspension... because technically they can still kill it according to previous GM suspension rules.

[Ella`Ella]

I 100% agree with you that these mobs are raid targets, however, they are NOT given any consideration as so by the GMs. They are not on the 1/1/1 system and are when we got suspended I was told by Sirken that Sky mobs are good to go! Which, I firmly believe, should include Noble, OOAs and HoV. These mobs should NOT be just a regular mob and SHOULD be added be given the weight they deserve. However, they are not. Which is why IB got pissed that you guys came up to capitalize on "their Noble" even though they were in suspension... because technically they can still kill it according to previous GM suspension rules.

Should that be the case, TMO has made it clear that we would engage a noble on a day other than our own if we do not have a noble spawning on our day. I believe this is even posted here in this thread by Snackies. However, we have also agreed to not killing Overseers to any extent.

[bktroost]

Is that TMO agreeing to uphold this agreement in the near future should IB agree as well?

[Striiker]

The attempt to rotate this had several flaws and ultimately it failed because we did not have a consensus by all guilds involved. Getting everyone to willingly agree to anything is pretty much impossible on this server. There were too many instances of guilds looking out for their own interests instead of making concessions to arrive at an equitable solution.

It's unfortunate really.. A simple rotation would ultimately see every sky raiding guild get a Noble kill weekly (possibly more) or at the least, an equal number over a given period of time (but this requires compromise to get rolling). So, the final straw came when a perceived slight by TMO against IB happened and so IB retaliated by killing some overseers (which steps all over the remaining guilds who were not involved in any such actions).

So, the agreement is dead for the time being. The Efreeti cycle will be once again a FFA click-fest target.

[Ella`Ella]

The attempt to rotate this had several flaws and ultimately it failed because we did not have a consensus by all guilds involved. Getting everyone to willingly agree to anything is pretty much impossible on this server. There were too many instances of guilds looking out for their own interests instead of making concessions to arrive at an equitable solution.

It's unfortunate really.. A simple rotation would ultimately see every sky raiding guild get a Noble kill weekly (possibly more) or at the least, an equal number over a given period of time (but this requires compromise to get rolling). So, the final straw came when a perceived slight by TMO against IB happened and so IB retaliated by killing some overseers (which steps all over the remaining guilds who were not involved in any such actions).

So, the agreement is dead for the time being. The Efreeti cycle will be once again a FFA click-fest target.

It is unfortunate that IB's behavior led to such confusion for everyone else on the server. TMO will still respect the agreement that we put forth since the freeti agreement has been in place. Nothing has changed on our end. Our killing of IB's noble was under the premise that IB was not able to engage noble (or Overseers for that matter) during a raid suspension. Our understanding of this was furthered when IB leadership and membership remained on island 1 for about 30minutes while we waited and engaged Noble without a single /tell or /ooc from leadership validating or questioning our actions.

If Taken wishes to withdraw, then that decision lays solely on you and TMO will adjust accordingly.

[Erati]

Pretty hard to just press the 'reset' button once an agreement is broken especially when we have no measures in place to ensure that a similar situation doesn't happen again.

Without any form type of oversight, the Overseer agreement is subject to any guild's 'bad day'.

Until we as a collective group can decide on how we wish to enforce the "No Killing of Overseers", hoping and wishing that no one does seems pretty futile.

[Artaenc]

Should that be the case, TMO has made it clear that we would engage a noble on a day other than our own if we do not have a noble spawning on our day. I believe this is even posted here in this thread by Snackies. However, we have also agreed to not killing Overseers to any extent.

"a noble" is not accurate here, more like Saturday and Tuesday Noble unless I got the days mixed up.

[Ella`Ella]

"a noble" is not accurate here, more like Saturday and Tuesday Noble unless I got the days mixed up.

Saturday was our motion to take a noble in concurrence with our previously stated agreement. We felt Tuesday was an open contest. If we continue to observe the previous agreement, TMO will not engage 2 nobles within a 7-day period. If we engage a noble on a Thursday and an unanticipated noble spawns on our Sunday, we will concede it to A-Team who shares our day.

[Pint]

All that really matters now is whether or not we are all going to let Taken decide that the agreement is dead or whether we want to attempt to continue it. I know that Asgard has no issues with leaving Ooa's up in an attempt to keep the agreement alive. We can treat this as nothing more than a server reset and go from there. Obviously if IB decides to kill the Ooa's again then we can chalk this up to a failed experiment.

[Erati]

I spoke with Deru...

if we can get all Sky rotation guilds to agree on concise rules surrounding our agreement it will be enforced by the staff.

This is not a Taken thing, its really up to every guild on the Sky rotation on how we move forward, and how it is we see to it our agreement remains intact.

[-Catherin-]

If we have GM enforcement if everyone can agree then...

Make the noble cycle a raid target. (You cannot kill any of them if you are suspended)

And make killing the Overseer by anyone participating in the agreement grounds to have your guild suspended.

I would be happy if those two points could be enforced as it prevents anyone from going rogue like we have already witnessed. I think we can figure out the rest among ourselves.

[Pint]

Interesting that the staff would want to tie themselves to part of the sky agreement but it would definitely be reassuring. I dont mean to single out Taken but it was your guild leader who declared the agreement dead without consulting the rest of us. Asgard is not suggesting that the nobles enter the C/R/FFA cycle, we just liked the idea of leaving Ooa's up since that seemed to result in a net positive for everyone involved regardless of whether or not they want to rotate, ynyd or fte spam them.

[-Catherin-]

Give it a rest Pint.

Without everyone on board it pretty much IS dead. I'll remind you that the guild that started killing all the Overseers still hasn't commented.

I don't think anyone in Taken has refused to try to work something out - read the posts. But something DOES need to change.


We have just been made aware that we can get GM enforcement if we can actually agree on something for once... so lets drop the finger pointing and agree on something.

[Pint]

Give what a rest? Im only stating that Asgard wants the agreement back in place, others can feel free to chime in.

[Boilon]

Europa is still in favor of the agreement for what it is worth. We are also open to discussing with other guilds on how to proceed from this point. I think that it is a deep shame that we have lost the opportunity for the time being to kill any efreeti, but we hope that maybe this can be resolved.

[bktroost]

I like Catherin's modification to the original agreement.

1. Killing an OOA is punishable by GM staff with a minimum of 1 week suspension.
2. A guild under suspension is not able to kill Nobles/OOAs

[Drakakade]

Divinity supports Catherine's proposal, and supports the old OoA agreement (leaving them up to spawn nobles). It's regrettable that the OoA were killed since we were close to 1 a day nobles for all, but let's move on for the betterment of the server.

[Ella`Ella]

TMO stands by its former agreement and will agree to continue to not engage Overseers.

[bktroost]

Unbrella, can you comment on a GM enforced suspension for killing OOAs? This is an addition to the original agreement. As this would only behoove you should your competition go nuclear again, I can't see why this should cause any problems for TMO.

[-Catherin-]

OoA was apparently killed again btw.

Since IB hasn't commented on this thread I am assuming its them again until they state otherwise.

[-Catherin-]

IB claiming it wasn't them. so /shrug. regardless this isn't working now.

Does anyone have an idea of who did it?

[Ella`Ella]

Unbrella, can you comment on a GM enforced suspension for killing OOAs? This is an addition to the original agreement. As this would only behoove you should your competition go nuclear again, I can't see why this should cause any problems for TMO.

TMO will endorse a GM enforcement on not engaging OoA.

[bktroost]

Well I think every guild is going about killing the OOAs because nothing is set in stone or enforced. Seems we will have a unanimous agreement on these OOAs that is enforced if we can get an IB officer to sign on.

[Hokushin]

We would like to see the nobles rotated OR only killed by the guild who has sky that day, without OOAs being killed.. with all guilds agreeing

[jpetrick]

Indignation agrees to rotate nobles amongst guilds. We are against your day your noble due to guilds sharing a sky day creating complications for a different system.

[Hyjal]

Dojo is contesting in Sky and believe Noble and OOR are fair game. In full disagreement with any GM enforced rotation.


Just like the flawed Sky schedule. The noble schedule will be flawed. Nobody wants to wait and see who gets to cherry pick or play an instanced version of EQ. Please stop with all the rotations.

[bktroost]

Hyjal, Elzhi and Hokushin, we are not discussing a GM enforced noble rotation. We are purely discussing a GM enforced hands off on OOAs.

Would I like to see a system like YNYD once the OOAs are up and running? Absolutely! But the one thing every guild can agree on right now is that the OOAs staying alive benefit the server.

Please speak to that topic as to whether you agree to a GM enforced OOA protected server.

[Hyjal]

Honestly, I think farming noble by keeping a ton of OOR's alive is a cheap way to obtain loot.


And you want to GM enforce this? Because its a cheap way to obtain loot?

[bktroost]

Honestly, I think farming noble by keeping a ton of OOR's alive is a cheap way to obtain loot.


And you want to GM enforce this? Because its a cheap way to obtain loot?

I think this comment might be a little Out Of Range of this topic. I can't say I even understand what the term "a cheap way to obtain loot" means. Maybe you could elaborate on your point and explain what moralistic view Dolj has on generating more Nobles.

[Argh]

We can reach an OOA agreement without reaching an agreement for rotating Nobles or a YDYN agreement.

Having more nobles is better for everyone regardless of how you wish to treat them (FTE clickfest, rotation, YDYN, etc.)

[Hyjal]

That's like saying re-popping all dragons and gods on the server every day is good for the server because everyone gets loot. Well, its not.

A player agreement seems reasonable. Asking GM's to enforce it so everyone can farm the hell out of it doesn't seem to be. Legit? Sure. But damn, how easy do you want it?

[Hyjal]

Nobody happy until 13 nobles a day are popping? or however many guilds there are? Gimmie a break...

This shouldn't even be a topic.

[Argh]

GMs have already agreed to enforce it if we all agree to terms of the punishment for breaking it.

[-Catherin-]

No point in trying to reason with Lord Bob. They will continue to FTE without logic or fairness.

Don't really need them as part of the agreement anyways. They still havnt even legally killed a raid mob yet right?

[bktroost]

No point in trying to reason with Lord Bob. They will continue to FTE without logic or fairness.

Don't really need them as part of the agreement anyways. They still haven't even legally killed a raid mob yet right?

Well here is an interesting point. Is Genocidal Tendencies or that Baker's Guild on the raid roster? No, because they haven't legally killed anything. Should Cats Who Say Meow have a decision in how IB and TMO handle FTEs and training in VP? Probably not. Should that trading guild in EC have a seat on the committee that decides Noble agreements? Doubtful, since they aren't a raiding guild.

Every major raiding guild has agreed to this arrangement and it would appear that a guild that does not successfully raid major targets is trying to strong arm the server for misbegotten moralistic reasons. I question the legitimacy of this claim. Do we need to try to coerce Lord Bob to see reason or does their argument not hold weight against 99% of the successful raiding guilds?

[Pint]

I'm doubting that hyjal speaks for his guild on this matter, I imagine he didn't even consult them. I'd say let him run his mouth and see where he ends up, looks like the final nail in the bob coffin to me.

[jpetrick]

Indignation agrees to rotate nobles amongst guilds, with no OOAs being killed. We are against your day your noble due to guilds sharing a sky day creating complications for a different system.

[Ella`Ella]

TMO maintains our former stance on the matter, however we will continue to respect not touching Overseers.

[Drakakade]

Divinity supports:

1) Efreeti are raid mobs and off limit to suspended guilds
2) No killing of OoA
2) Nobles are FFA until there are Nobles spawning every day
3) Once there are Nobles spawning every day, Nobles are "your day, your noble" - people who share their day take turns.

[bktroost]

Upon reviewing all parties stances posted here, we have concordant point: Hands off OOA. If there is a GM enforced system that spans across Guild Classes it is to keep OOAs up for the server's continued spawning of Noble Dojorn. (excluding Lord Bob's ubiquitous...outcry?)

I do not believe this will cause a monstrous vicissitude in the way Efreeti loot is spread to the server largely because of resets. In the months that we practiced the OOA agreement no guild received more than 5 efreeti kills. With the rarity of the belt/fists/valued loot that means that each guild might have received 1 piece of decent efreeti loot...maybe.

I think the only fear or objection to this proposal is that every guild will have monks with 2x Wu's and warriors with their belts by the time Velious comes out. If every guild has 70+raiding players and we each get 1 piece of decent efreeti drops in 3 months... well we will clearly fall short of that mark.

GM Derubael, please let us know your thoughts on this unified proposal. We thank you in advance for the generous opportunity to work with us in this incredibly busy time for GMs/Devs. We all look forward to Velious and cannot wait to experience the content we have waited years to re-experience. Thanks for taking the time to consider live content currently needing some attention.

[Artaenc]

This huge thread for OOAs... I don't know what's going to happen with nobles but I definitely support the preservation of OOAs.

[Powtle]

Europa supports the OOA-preservation agreement too indeed, and the fact that Dojorn should be considered as a raid mob.

For Dojorn handling, well, because of shared Sky days a rotation would be the best. Some guilds seems against the idea tho.

[wycca]

Divinity supports:

1) Efreeti are raid mobs and off limit to suspended guilds
2) No killing of OoA
2) Nobles are FFA until there are Nobles spawning every day
3) Once there are Nobles spawning every day, Nobles are "your day, your noble" - people who share their day take turns.

AT supports the #1 & the first #2. In fact, it's silly that lvl 50 trash and duoable raid mobs in the other two planes are off-limits while raid mobs and harder stuff in PoSky is not considered a raid zone and is not part of a raid ban. The entire zone should be off-limits.

We do not support #3 (and thusly the 2nd #2 is moot). We may honor individual YNYD agreements, such as the ones that allowed the server to avoid Noble FFA fests prior to IB's action (ie TMO/IB's YNYD combined with a Class R agreement). Powtle summarized our reasoning pretty well just above on that one.

[Hyjal]

To reply to BKroost,

The officers of Dojo and I have been in this raiding community since day 1 of the server and are in full support of this stance. Like me or not, I have been a part of this raiding community since the beginning and have lead countless targets, including server first dragon, god, and sky kills. My history (or opinion for that matter) within the community should not alter the perception that I have every right to voice my opinion here. I have more than put in my time, and have had plenty of success. To say that my opinion is less than yours because you get handed loot from a gumball machine type system is quite laughable. I had my success without any rotations set in place. I look for the same in Tier-R and Sky with Dojo. What have you done that makes my opinion not matter?

Oh and btw, Dojo is a Tier-R guild. The page says it, and even if it didn't, we killed maestro technicality or not. We also raced for that kill. There were zero players in plane of hate and maestro was alive at one point. We obviously learned a valuable lesson about DQ's. We also raid just about everyday and often visit all 3 planes in the same day, and have begun contesting targets (including noble). Yet we are not a raid guild? lol...

Rotating nobles should be player agreement. There are many issues already with the current sky day rotation, and noble will be no different. Farming elite items also floods the player base with items they normally wouldn't get if such a system were put in place. It very much comes off as a loot pinata to me. Its basically taking advantage of a good situation. And getting GM's involved all but guarantees the loot pinata will continue.

Cheap way to play EQ. Thats just my opinion.

[-Catherin-]

I figured I would post an explanation here about OoA and KoS from tonight so you can have something a little more credible to read than the current drivel in RnF.

First and foremost, Taken is wanting, and waiting for an agreement that everyone can get on board with that the GMs are willing to enforce. We have been told enforcement will happen if we can all find a common ground that we can agree upon.

Yeah we killed OoA and KoS tonight, and we didn't try to hide it. We currently do not have the anticipated agreement. Against our better judgement last week when we killed Noble Dojorn we made the decision to leave the OoA up regardless of no agreement being in place.

Someone killed that OoA and I still have no real idea of who it was other than a lot of people pointing fingers at everyone else. Fact was that it happened, so we are apparently not the only ones that think OoAs are fair game until an agreement is reached. If someone is going to kill it anyways, then it is what it is.

I find it fascinating that The Mystical Order comes out in a rage at Taken for killing them this week and threatening to say the heck with any sort of an agreement at all in retaliation, and yet were silent last week when the same thing happened. Maybe its because they don't know who did it last week so they didn't have anyone to direct that rage at?

TMO told us that it was frustrating to kill the Noble to then leave OoA up and just end up handing them to another guild. Our response is: trust us, we totally understand and relate. See: Last week when Taken killed Noble and left OoA up.

So bottom line is yeah we killed it. We are not trying to hide it like whoever did it last week. And we are not being hypocrites about it. There is currently no agreement and its as simple as that. We are more than willing to go along with an agreement and actively work towards one, and are looking forward to that hopefully happening soon.

[Ella`Ella]

So, you want to make an agreement to protect Overseers of Air, but until then you're going to continue to kill them?

[-Catherin-]

So, you want to make an agreement to protect Overseers of Air, but until then you're going to continue to kill them?

It should have already been made apparent by our mystery guild that did the same thing to us last week that the Overseers are going to die anyways until something is enforced. So that is exactly what I am saying.

[Pint]

So what we're really supposed to pull from this is that we cant count on Taken as long as there are potential pixels on the line.

[arsenalpow]

So what we're really supposed to pull from this is that we cant count on Taken as long as there are potential pixels on the line.

Well that's not really fair. Overseers have been an endangered species as of late and Catherin is correct in saying that there is no firm agreement in place. If Overseers are going to be killed then Taken figured it might as well be at their hand.

[Pint]

Well that's not really fair. Overseers have been an endangered species as of late and Catherin is correct in saying that there is no firm agreement in place. If Overseers are going to be killed then Taken figured it might as well be at their hand.

You could read it like that, sounded more like someone else left an OoA up in good faith and Taken decided not to wait to find out who the weak link in the agreement would be.

[bktroost]

Taken, the last OOA was killed before IB made the agreement to leave OOAs up. As of 4 days ago we had a new agreement signed by EVERYONE in the sky rotation to leave the OOAs alive. This is a fully signed agreement and has 0 caveats or loop holes in regards to keeping the OOAs alive.

There is no reason why any guild who signed this should have any doubt--from this moment forward--as to whether or not they should leave the OOAs up. Everyone in this rotation agrees.

As of this moment right now let no one claim ignorance that the OOAs are hands off and this has been fully agreed upon by everyone in the sky rotation.

[Erati]

Taken, the last OOA was killed before IB made the agreement to leave OOAs up. As of 4 days ago we had a new agreement signed by EVERYONE in the sky rotation to leave the OOAs alive. This is a fully signed agreement and has 0 caveats or loop holes in regards to keeping the OOAs alive.

There is no reason why any guild who signed this should have any doubt--from this moment forward--as to whether or not they should leave the OOAs up. Everyone in this rotation agrees.

As of this moment right now let no one claim ignorance that the OOAs are hands off and this has been fully agreed upon by everyone in the sky rotation.

I have yet to see even a half consensus about whether we can get everyone to agree to allow the GMs to enforce punishments should a guild breaks the agreement and kills the Overseers.

You are JUMPING and LEAPING to conclusions. All sky guilds ( minus Bob) have said they will not kill Overseers however there is still no agreement on whether we can get everyone to support GM intervention should another 'bad day for us' event happens and a guild decides to kill the Overseers after signing this agreement.

I have not seen TMO or IB say they support GMs helping police this agreement.

Taken has since the moment IB killed Overseers been consistent: there is no agreement as the previous one broke the second an Overseer was slain.

Its nice and good that others are rushing to push this back through and get the cycle going again, but again it is futile unless we can get some ability to hold people accountable for their actions.

Taken has had a crystal clear stance on this.

We wont kill any Overseers once an OFFICIAL agreement is in place and all we are waiting to see is full support of the Devs to police this and right now I dont think the Devs think we have any kind of consensus or they would have commented.

Class R ( minus Bob) seems to be pretty much in agreement with:

1. Nobles are raid mobs and cannot be killed on suspension
2. Overseers will not be killed in order to spawn more Nobles

Any guild that breaks #2 is subject to punishment from the GMs whether that be a raid suspension, a sky suspension, a Noble suspension....I dont know

No one has even started to discuss that.

We need to give the GMs a policy they can enforce and stop crying about things. Everyone rather bicker and point fingers at who they feel is in the wrong rather than try to come up with tangible things the GMs can hold us accountable to.

The GMs are not responsible for how the players divy up Nobles, Class R has own our methods to deal with that as did TMO and IB. That is fine and dandy but we dont need an agreement on Noble Dojorn besides declaring him ( and the cycle ) raid mobs.

We need to stop derailing this thread with talk about how to deal with the extra Nobles, it is irrelevant. What we need right now is a hard lined consensus from all the guilds involved in this whether they agree to

1. Nobles are raid mobs and cannot be killed on suspension
2. Overseers will not be killed in order to spawn more Nobles

and what kind of punishments they would like to see or agree to should someone break #2.

So until we have everyone chiming in about that, I am sorry Nemce but there is no current agreement no matter how many times guilds run here and say they wont kill them

We tried that last time and all it took was 1 bad day to throw it all away. No point going down that path again without something hard lined.

[-Catherin-]

Hows this:

The Guild that killed OoA last weekend and is refusing to admit to it comes forward, admits to killing it, and promises to cut it out. Then I can see about what we can do to get things back in order.

Right now you have absolutely no leg to stand on telling me that the same Guild that killed overseer last week behind everyone's backs won't just do it again. That's the rub. Get them to come forward and some GM enforcement behind the agreement in regards to the overseer and then we can look at moving forward.

[Artaenc]

As of this moment right now let no one claim ignorance that the OOAs are hands off and this has been fully agreed upon by everyone in the sky rotation.

The next time an OOA is killed by a guild that agreed to leave them up I'll be done with this and we'll all need to learn how to use autofire if that's even legal to use on the server. This includes Taken.

[Ella`Ella]

In light of Taken's repeated actions regarding the Overseers, TMO sees no reason to abide by the former agreement that was in place. We came to Taken yesterday with reason, suggesting that they are in a critical position to either stand down and be part of the solution by setting a precedent and not engaging or they could continue to exacerbate the problem by continuing to kill OoA's. Unfortunately, Taken chose the former.

In response, TMO will now begin keeping noble timer and engaging Noble as an FFA target and continuing on with the freeti cycle (Noble>Overseer>Hand) until further notice. We apologize in this unfortunate circumstance, but if we are to accept Taken's logic as to why they killed Overseer's than we must treat this situation in concordance to that line of rationale.

[Erati]

In light of Taken's repeated actions regarding the Overseers, TMO sees no reason to abide by the former agreement that was in place. We came to Taken yesterday with reason, suggesting that they are in a critical position to either stand down and be part of the solution by setting a precedent and not engaging or they could continue to exacerbate the problem by continuing to kill OoA's. Unfortunately, Taken chose the former.

In response, TMO will now begin keeping noble timer and engaging Noble as an FFA target and continuing on with the freeti cycle (Noble>Overseer>Hand) until further notice. We apologize in this unfortunate circumstance, but if we are to accept Taken's logic as to why they killed Overseer's than we must treat this situation in concordance to that line of rationale.

this makes no sense at all.

We have said from day 1 there is no agreement without players agreeing to a punishment should agreement to be broken.

but this is a great way to paint us as villains here when

TMO, the pinnacle of raiding, cant handle missing out on some Efreetis while not recognizing that a real deal, something clearly defined that holds guilds accountable is still currently not in place. Classy.

A. We did not break the original agreement, and once it was broken a new one needed to be forged with real tangible accountability ( GM enforced )
B. We left OoA up last week and then he died but no one had a shit storm about that

A couple people chimed in they wouldnt kill Overseer but still no word about support for GM punishment should deal be broken.

It is unfortunate that TMO cannot see the forest past the trees.

[-Catherin-]

In light of Taken's repeated actions regarding the Overseers, TMO sees no reason to abide by the former agreement that was in place. We came to Taken yesterday with reason, suggesting that they are in a critical position to either stand down and be part of the solution by setting a precedent and not engaging or they could continue to exacerbate the problem by continuing to kill OoA's. Unfortunately, Taken chose the former.

In response, TMO will now begin keeping noble timer and engaging Noble as an FFA target and continuing on with the freeti cycle (Noble>Overseer>Hand) until further notice. We apologize in this unfortunate circumstance, but if we are to accept Taken's logic as to why they killed Overseer's than we must treat this situation in concordance to that line of rationale.

At least you are finally being honest about your intentions so I can give you respect where it is due for that.

I'll ask again though, where was this outrage last week, when Taken left the Overseer up in good faith and it was then killed? Once again, by a Guild who refuses to step forward, admit it, and agree that it will stop.

If you don't have that then you have no agreement anyways. So your attempt to make us look like the bad guys changes nothing.

[bktroost]

In light of Taken's repeated actions regarding the Overseers, TMO sees no reason to abide by the former agreement that was in place. We came to Taken yesterday with reason, suggesting that they are in a critical position to either stand down and be part of the solution by setting a precedent and not engaging or they could continue to exacerbate the problem by continuing to kill OoA's. Unfortunately, Taken chose the former.

In response, TMO will now begin keeping noble timer and engaging Noble as an FFA target and continuing on with the freeti cycle (Noble>Overseer>Hand) until further notice. We apologize in this unfortunate circumstance, but if we are to accept Taken's logic as to why they killed Overseer's than we must treat this situation in concordance to that line of rationale.

I understand your perspective Unbrella. Can I make a suggestion? Might it be worth a go to say that we turn the entire server into an FFA FTE fest until we win this raid on ForumQuest? From this point forward its an FFA FTE (because it already is) and we actively attempt to get some full agreement from the GMs about enforcing the OOA hands off?

It seems Taken will not agree fully until we hear from a GM. TMO won't agree if Taken isn't and IB hasn't really fully committed. We can make a separate post with the changes that we want the GMs to enforce and ask that 1 officer from each guild only post *signed* on it to make it official. Once we get that signed off by every guild in the sky rotation we can get the GMs to see it (like a real petition) and give us the permission that this will go into effect on XX/XX date. Then we know precisely which date the changes are in effect and there will be no confusion whatsoever.

Until then, no one will need to worry about being called "Sky scums," or whatever else RnFs wants to throw around because we will all be of one mind.

Does that sounds workable?

[Ella`Ella]

this makes no sense at all.

We have said from day 1 there is no agreement without players agreeing to a punishment should agreement to be broken.

but this is a great way to paint us as villains here when

TMO, the pinnacle of raiding, cant handle missing out on some Efreetis while not recognizing that a real deal, something clearly defined that holds guilds accountable is still currently not in place. Classy.

A. We did not break the original agreement, and once it was broken a new one needed to be forged with real tangible accountability ( GM enforced )
B. We left OoA up last week and then he died but no one had a shit storm about that

A couple people chimed in they wouldnt kill Overseer but still no word about support for GM punishment should deal be broken.

It is unfortunate that TMO cannot see the forest past the trees.

It's not about painting anyone a villain. We don't give a shit if it was Taken, IB, Europa of BDA (If it was BDA, I'd just make an RNF about Chest).

The fact that we didn't cry about it when the OoA died kinda evidences how little we give a shit about Nobles to any extent. But, as long as every other guild is apparently starting to treat them as FFA (at least the top tier Class-R's and IB) we might as well join the fun until something is in place.

In fact, just do this, GM's enforce no killing OoA and nobles go on FFA/Class-R/Class-C like the rest of the server.

Til that happens - happy hunting.

[-Catherin-]

In fact, just do this, GM's enforce no killing OoA and nobles go on FFA/Class-R/Class-C like the rest of the server.

Til that happens - happy hunting.

Now this is something I would *happily* approve of and go along with.

[Drakakade]

Divinity would supportn=, "In fact, just do this, GM's enforce no killing OoA and nobles go on FFA/Class-R/Class-C like the rest of the server."

Great idea.

[Pint]

Eventually Taken is going to have to stop hiding behind the idea of gm enforcement, the staff is busy and they have no desire to police the server any more than they already do. The last agreement was largely a success and did not require any staff involvement. Maybe someone will spaz out again in 3 weeks and kill all the overseers again but why will that matter if multiple parties benefit from the agreement before that happens? All the extra stipulations and requirements y'all are piling on is doing nothing but further stalling our progress. The only rule we need is don't kill OoA, the server staff shouldn't even have the right to tell a guild they can't kill a mob in sky if they want to, that's outrageous. If a guild doesn't want to agree to preserving OoA then just come out and own your stance, nobody is buying what you're selling.

[-Catherin-]

Eventually Taken is going to have to stop hiding behind the idea of gm enforcement, the staff is busy and they have no desire to police the server any more than they already do. The last agreement was largely a success and did not require any staff involvement. Maybe someone will spaz out again in 3 weeks and kill all the overseers again but why will that matter if multiple parties benefit from the agreement before that happens? All the extra stipulations and requirements y'all are piling on is doing nothing but further stalling our progress. The only rule we need is don't kill OoA, the server staff shouldn't even have the right to tell a guild they can't kill a mob in sky if they want to, that's outrageous. If a guild doesn't want to agree to preserving OoA then just come out and own your stance, nobody is buying what you're selling.

except:

we were told if we could come to an agreement that they would enforce it.

[Pint]

except:

we were told if we could come to an agreement that they would enforce it.

We can move forward without the staff if y'all just get on board already.

[Erati]

All of Class R is agreeing to what TMO just laid out

we are much closer to a GM enforceable policy than you realize.

And this isnt additional work because ( I know it will be a shock) no one will kill the Overseers!

So they will barely have to do anything at all except during the oft chance someone DOES kill them...then finally someone will have to be accountable for their decision that affects the other 10 guilds.

[Ella`Ella]

I posted this in RnF, but please tell me what you see here...

http://i.imgur.com/HAJZRXz.png

[Erati]

TMO has access to encounter logs ?

[Erati]

Well to save people the trouble ( if that encounter log is 100% legit which it seems to be, cept why blackout stuff?)...
we can just play the 'it was all a misunderstanding card' from the last Overseer death kerfuffle that TMO/IB used !

( this is why we want GMs to sign off on our player agreement so the Taken shitbags can get suspended for killing Overseers )

[Artaenc]

I posted this in RnF, but please tell me what you see here...

http://i.imgur.com/HAJZRXz.png

One OOA died of a heart attack and TMO didn't kill it?

[Argh]

GMs will not enforce a blanket 'nobody kills ooa' policy. This affects guilds that have never agreed to such.

Also, a C/R/FFA policy for Nobles would have to be tracked by players as I don't expect Rogean would be wanting to add it to the raid.php page. This is a suitable agreement for how we want to treat Noble spawns, but we still require everyone agreeing to an OOA NAP that clearly defines discipline for breaking the agreement.

[Erati]

GMs will not enforce a blanket 'nobody kills ooa' policy. This affects guilds that have never agreed to such.

Also, a C/R/FFA policy for Nobles would have to be tracked by players as I don't expect Rogean would be wanting to add it to the raid.php page. This is a suitable agreement for how we want to treat Noble spawns, but we still require everyone agreeing to an OOA NAP.

right they can enforce something if guilds sign off on it then break the agreement tho

just to be clear

[Ella`Ella]

why blackout stuff?)...


Think it has the account name of the player that engaged.

[Erati]

Think it has the account name of the player that engaged.

Well at least the finger pointing and witch hunt can end so we can just this stupid thing official and hammered away

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154977

[arsenalpow]

TMO has access to encounter logs ?

[Ella`Ella]

TMO has access to encounter logs ?

And spawn timers.

[Ambrotos]

Just to add in a small tidbit. Before Kunark went live, we had this system going since only one or two guilds at the time were killing them. I forget what number it was we got to without killing OOA, but the nobles stopped spawning all together. I think there was a old bug report about it, but nothing much from live exists on that scale.

We had to have a Amelinda I think kill all the OOAs(5+? I think). Highly doubt anything has changed from that time period. Keep this in mind going forward and ask the staff if something seems out of the norm.

[Ella`Ella]

Oh, and just to clarify, since Chest seemed to struggle with this one, the logs show that the overseer that you think was killed in some covert op to slight the server, never actually spawned. Either the zone crashed or some unknown error occurred, however there was no spawn in between June 5 (Taken killed) and June 18 (Taken killed).

[Sadad]

And spawn timers.

Oh, and just to clarify, since Chest seemed to struggle with this one, the logs show that the overseer that you think was killed in some covert op to slight the server, never actually spawned. Either the zone crashed or some unknown error occurred, however there was no spawn in between June 5 (Taken killed) and June 18 (Taken killed).

I know you're riding high having traded a couple Monsoons for the right to train BDA, but there are still rules for posting in this forum which encourage you to not be a dick.

[wycca]

Heavily trafficked zones on the server tend to crash periodically - EC is a great example. Sky is pretty heavily trafficked as well, it usually seems to crash on it's own every 3-4 weeks (usually around the time we have 3 or 4 OoA's up - which would've been around now). So makes complete sense. Nice to end the finger-pointing and get back to fixing the problem.